Learning new Spells??


Advice

Dark Archive

So one of my players wanted to learn a new spell from a wand and its kinda vague. To create said wand the creator needs to impart all the knowledge and spell components of the spell to make it, so its all there. How would any of you do or not do this and why?

Grand Lodge

I wouldn't let them, because it makes sense to copy the spell from a found scroll since it is written on it in the language of magic but a wand has no writing on it, or at least not enough for the entire description of the spell, to use as a spell completion since it is only a spell trigger item for someone who knows how to use the spell or has the capabilities through UMD.

Liberty's Edge

There is a cost to learning a spell from a scroll, namely that the scroll is used up in the process. If I were going to house rule something about learning a spell from a wand, I would probably try to put a similar price on it. The question is what price? A scroll costs 25gp x Spell Level x Caster Level and a wand costs 750gp x Spell Level x Caster Level. You get one use with the scroll and 50 with the wand though, so a wand only costs 15gp x SL x CL per charge. So, I guess you could say that 2 charges would be a reasonable cost. I would probably use 5 or even 10 charges though because this is an unusual practice and I'd still want using a scroll to be a more common way to learn spells.

As an in game explanation I would say something like learning a scroll from a wand involves using the wand a few times for this express purpose or perhaps siphoning away a little of the wand's power.

Finally, the DC for learning a spell from a scroll is DC 15 + Spell Level Spellcraft check. It seems like learning a spell from a wand would definitely be harder, so I would probably go with DC 20 + Spell Level. If you fail the Spellcraft roll you must wait a week before trying again (but the charges are not expended).

Liberty's Edge

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Upon further inspection of the rule (which should have happened BEFORE I posted), I don't see anything about the scroll being used up in the process of scribing a spell from it. In light of this new (to me) information, I would still use a higher DC on the Spellcraft check and possibly impose a 1 or 2 charge 'tax' from the wand, although the rules don't support this. They don't support learning a spell from a wand at all though, so whatever you say goes.

On a side note: Am I missing where it says a scroll is consumed when a wizard uses it to learn a spell? Was this ever the case (3.5/3.0/2e/1e/Expert/Basic/back of Gary Gygax's napkin somewhere in Wisconsin)? Am I crazy for thinking this? Am I right to have thought this and now crazy for doubting myself?


No I think you are right in AD&D Player's Handbook it said you could copy a spell from a scroll and the scroll was lost in the process as a Magic User (remember them?)

Dark Archive

i always thought it was consumed when you copied, but maybe im wrong.


There are 3 ways to add a new spell to your spellbook as a Wizard; you get 2 free ones every level up, copying from a scroll/spellbook, or independent research. What your player is trying to do qualifies as independent research.

The wording is vague and left up to DM discretion, but I would make it more costly than using a scroll/spellbook. Just having a wand doesn't teach you the subtle incantations, wording and movements required to cast the spell. You are just triggering an item for a spell effect. Two different things IMO.

Quote:
Independent Research: A wizard can also research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating an entirely new one. The cost to research a new spell, and the time required, are left up to GM discretion, but it should probably take at least 1 week and cost at least 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be researched. This should also require a number of Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcana) checks.

Also note, yes, Copying a scroll to a spellbook consumes the scroll. Copying from one spellbook to another doesn't remove the spell from the original spellbook.

I suggest you read the "Adding Spells to a Wizard's Spellbook" on the SRD.


d20pfsrd wrote:


Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

Emphasis mine.

Edit: I would not allow the wizard to use the wand to learn the spell. If for some reason you require him to have become familiar with the spell to add it at level up, the wand qualifies for that. But it's a matter of the form of the magical item; a wand is a spell trigger item, while a scroll is a spell completion item. Basically, what this means is that a wand contains a pre-cast spell; it just requires a spellcaster to trigger that. But a scroll contains a half-cast spell; it requires the spellcaster to complete the casting. The important part really is more implicit; the scroll contains enough information to understand how to prepare the spell, while the wand doesn't; the wand really just contains potential energy.


I'd probably allow the attempt, but it would be a spellcraft check, and harder than the one from the scroll.

Each attempt would burn a few charges (d4?) as well, so the player has a tough decision to make.


Well there is a way but it might sound really weird (and maybe stupid), scribe a scroll of the spell you want to learn using the wand in order to provide the spell for the creation and then use the scroll to copy it in your spellbook.


leo1925 wrote:
Well there is a way but it might sound really weird (and maybe stupid), scribe a scroll of the spell you want to learn using the wand in order to provide the spell for the creation and then use the scroll to copy it in your spellbook.

That won't work. You must have the spell prepared (or as one of your spells known if you are a spontaneous caster) in order to make a scroll of it. You can't use a wand, staff, or other item to make a scroll.

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)


Jeraa wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
Well there is a way but it might sound really weird (and maybe stupid), scribe a scroll of the spell you want to learn using the wand in order to provide the spell for the creation and then use the scroll to copy it in your spellbook.

That won't work. You must have the spell prepared (or as one of your spells known if you are a spontaneous caster) in order to make a scroll of it. You can't use a wand, staff, or other item to make a scroll.

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

I am not going into that arguement again, i will keep quoting pages 461 and 549 and you will keep quoting p.552


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As far as I know, a wizard CAN use the wand to craft a scroll, and then use said scroll to learn the spell.

Designers have long since clarified that you can use spell trigger and spell completion items to craft magical items DESPITE several sections of the RAW that seems to indicate otherwise.

Many of the above quoted rules aren't meant to act as limitations, they are just the normal way of crafting items. They don't consider the possibility of using an outside source of magic, such as a wand, staff, scroll or even another caster wildly different from yourself (a cleric instead of another wizard, for example)--which is totally RAI.

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