Best Gestalt Build - Assume optimal ability scores.

[The Dragon]

Depending on how good stats you have, you can swing some pretty cool things. Conventionally, you have to observe main stats. Paladin goes with sorcerer because charisma.

Druid goes with monk because wisdom.

So on and so forth.

If you're not constrained by those considerations, however, you get to think about action economy instead.

You want swift action options, but not too many swift actions. You want to be able to get off most of your abilities in the space of one full round.

Actually, Warpriest//Magus could be pretty deadly, if you have the stats for it. You need int a little more than you need wisdom, but can probably get by with a 14 in both, long as your str is high enough.

[Senko]

There are ways around arcane spell failure. Personally I'm partial to arcanist/monk The arcanist takes care of power with their spells while monk adds saves/Bab/immunities etc and a decent unarmed AC. Of course I tend to multiclass to eldritch knight with a few levels of ranger but I still get my 9th level spells. Used to gestalt wizard/psion for a Magic/psychic assault but I like arcanist more and honestly the pathfinder shift to psychic magic doesn't appeal to me so ranger/arcanist then a few levels of arcanist/monk followed by eldritch knight/arcanist then wrapping up with eldritch knight/monk gives me ranger 2, arcanist 11, eldritch knight 10 (boosting arcanist casting) and monk 17

[Avoron]

Senko: Arcanist/monk?
I mean, I know this said to assume optimal ability scores, but do you really want to take a Str/Dex/Con/Wis class and gestalt it with a Int/Cha class?

[The Dragon]

Arcanist monk wouldn't neccessarily need to be anything other than a caster with good defenses.

The stat spread could be something like Int>Wis>Dex=Con>>Str=Cha, and then you just rely on spells for power and ignore the melee aspect of monk.

It's not like that's all that impressive regardless.

[Lord Mhoram]

Senko wrote:

There are ways around arcane spell failure. Personally I'm partial to arcanist/monk The arcanist takes care of power with their spells while monk adds saves/Bab/immunities etc and a decent unarmed AC.

Monk/Sorc is one of my favorite Gestalts, I just love the image. Never thought about trying an arcanist with that.

We use third party stuff too, and right now I am tinkering with a Vizier (DSP) that uses energy to make magic effects on magic item areas (you can still have magic items) and the other side is a Soulknife/Aegis multi - Soulknife makes their own weapon, Aegis makes their own armor. Equipment.. who needs no stinkin' equipment.

3.5 version of VoP would complete that images, but that is a LOT of stuff to keep track of.

Even with VoP it wouldn't be an incredibly powerful character, but I love the image.

[EntrerisShadow]

Bloodrager/Scarred Witch Doctor has officially replaced everything as the most OP possible combination.

[kestral287]

Kaouse wrote:

How does the Wizard have better casting than the Arcanist? They both have 9 level spellcasting. As for combining the Wizard with a martial, the Wizard doesn't get access to Spellstrike.

Getting spells earlier + more spells per day thanks to the school + gets better use of most casting-boosting items. I'm also personally not a fan of the Arcanist's mixed casting setup because it seems like you're just saddling yourself with the weaknesses of both, but I freely admit that that's a personal dislike.

Kaouse wrote:

The Arcanist also just happens to have a similar ability as one of his exploits. He also gets access to Arcane Accuracy, to boost his attack bonus further, unlike the wizard. With the exception of getting spells early (moot point in a high level game) the Arcanist/Swashbuckler is just better than the Wizard/Swashbuckler.

See the above about spells per day. Also, a Blade Adept at least can't pick up the full benefits of a school without doing wonky things, so Swash/Wizard gets swift action teleports. And I'll get into Arcane Accuracy below, but it's really not as great as it looks at first blush.

"Wonky things" here pretty much means abusing gestalt to do something like Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1/Swashbuckler 18//Arcanist 20. Which is honestly really solid, but not really a straight comparison.

Kaouse wrote:

As for the Magus being better due to Spell Combat, he either has to gestalt with a full BAB class to keep up in BAB, or a full casting class to keep up with casting.

Aye; in this particular instance I meant that Magus/Inspired Blade is better, as a combat chassis, than Arcanist/Inspired Blade. The latter does have more out-of-combat options, by far, but when it comes time to kill things Spell Combat is a really big deal.

Kaouse wrote:

That said, a 15 BAB Magus with 9th level Wizard spells may well be better than a 20 BAB Blade Adept due to better action economy, you've got me there. I'm just a sucker for thematic fits, I suppose.

Playing something like that right now: it's crazy good. Getting to level 6 so Broad Study can kick in is kind of a slog though.

Kaouse wrote:

Then again, a level 20 Inspired Blade can basically make all of his attacks crits at will, which definitely bodes well for a Spellstrike user.

The thing is though... the Blade Adept kinda sucks at Spellstrike.

For raw damage, the best options are still the lowest-level ones. Shocking Grasp, Frostbite, etc. So the Arcanist's higher-level slots don't really help here, for the most part.

And really, this is what it comes down to:
Low levels (1-4): Arcanist can't possibly Spellstrike until level 5. Magus is ahead by default. Also, at this point they basically have the same available spell slots, so the Magus' superior action economy isn't really counteracted by anything.
Early-Mid levels (5-9): Arcanist can cast an Intensified Shocking Grasp and attack once via Spellstrike, or forgo casting to attack twice. Magus + Spell Combat can cast Shocking Grasp and attack twice; once off the normal attack and once off Spellstrike. Magus at level 8 is attacking twice plus their Spellstrike attack.
Late-Mid levels (10-14): Arcanist can Quicken a Shocking Grasp and full attack, delivering a total of four attacks and a spell. The Magus, at this point, is only getting off three attacks and a spell... but the Magus is expending lower-level spell slots to do it and still has a swift action available; the moment Arcanist has to parry they lose out on either next round's spell and one attack or all but the spell and one attack. At level 13, the Magus picks up the option to Quicken their own spells. Thus it's four attacks + two spells versus four attacks + one spell, albeit with the Arcanist able to do this more times per day.
Late levels (15-20): Both classes can pick up Spell Perfection for Shocking Grasp. For the Arcanist, this is mostly taking pressure off spell slots to Quicken, but has the potential to throw in extra metamagic without using higher-level spell slots. However, for the Magus this not only takes pressure off spell slots when they choose to Quicken (a bigger deal for them, due to fewer high-level slots available), but virtually guarantees a metamagic-boosted Grasp whenever they use Spell Combat.

Now, the Arcanist's big advantage is, yes, they can expend higher-level spell slots to boost their Shocking Grasps. However, the costs are prohibitively expensive. Prior to level 15, simply emulating Spell Combat cost a 5th level spell (Quicken + Intensified, -1). Justifying making that 7th level for Empowered or 8th for Maximized is extremely difficult. Thus the Arcanist is likely to only really throw on the metamagic when his swift action isn't available but he decides to cast instead of full attacking anyway. Meanwhile, for the Magus casting an Intensified Shocking Grasp while full attacking is only a first-level spell slot, so Empowering or Maximizing it is often going to be easier for them.

This is not getting into Frostbite. As much as I dislike that spell and its combinations, it does have stronger late-game damage and the Arcanist is pretty terrible at using it due to problems getting off the multiple charges.

The short version: action economy screws Spellstrike as a viable option for the Arcanist. Making it work means expending 5th level slots every time or giving up on the standard full attack. Even then, making it work locks the Arcanist out of any other Swift or Immediate action. Parrying, boosting Precise Strike, Arcane Accuracy (hence why it's not very good for an Arcanist, at least not one that wants to be Spellstriking), Charmed Life, and more are all effectively unavailable unless the Arcanist is willing to cripple his attack routine.

Arcanist/Swashbuckler is a solid enough gish, to be sure (though I maintain the Wizard is better, at this point it's a question of degrees of effectiveness rather than overall effectiveness. Either one will wreck face), but the Arcanist/Swashbuckler just cannot fight like a Magus/Swashbuckler or even a Magus/Arcanist. Trying to force them into that role will limit the combination very, very harshly.

Kaouse wrote:

EDIT: Plus the Arcanist would have d10 health, compared to the Magus's d8.

Eh, more than Magus/Wizard or Magus/Arcanist, same as Magus/Swashbuckler. Magus/Swash also has three good saves, while Magus/9th level caster has two, but the missing one is Reflex instead of Fort. Since many Magi are Dex-based... this is not all that much of a problem.

[Senko]

I freely admit I don't build the strongest characters I was interpreting best as most fun for you to play and that's the one that is. I didn't intend them to be a frontline fighter so str and con could be ignored. The monk was for good saves and fun abilities to shore up mage weaknesses. I suppose if you wanted to risk getting stabbed with sharp pointy objects you could learn the buffing spells. Me I'd take master of many styles so really only int and dex to worry about for me.

As for the Arcanist yes they have problems but for me it's the caster class that's most fun.

[Kaouse]

Magus actually gains Quicken at Level 15, not 13. That said, I'll accept what you say about the Arcanist SwashBuckler being a weaker choice, kestral287. Still, I think it would be pretty fun to try out, and sometimes I get tired or defaulting to Magus for a gish (literally like a third of my long list of gish ideas had Magus in them).

Arcanist is still new to me, so if I get the chance, I'll want to try it out. Plus, I really, really like the idea of forced crit spellstrikes (though I understand it's insanely prohibitive with higher level spells).

[kestral287]

Level 13 is when they get 5th level spells, so they can cast a Quickened Intensified Shocking Grasp then. In theory they can Quicken from 10th, but a Quickened Shocking Grasp is... not intimidating at all.

If you do want to use an Arcanist, I'd look at something like the thing I'd posted earlier, using your other 'side' to dip Wizard and/or Sorcerer to make Bloodline Development and School Understanding work for you. I've danced around the idea of a die-hard blaster who went Arcanist 20 (probably Occultist, but standard could work)// Wizard 1 (Admixture)/Sorcerer 1 (Orc)/Swashbuckler 18 (Inspired Blade). The Swash levels can be replaced, honestly-- the goal is something to help defensively that doesn't require lots of armor or the like; akin to Senko's thoughts with the Monk.

Each spell gets +1 damage per die, +1 damage per two levels, can swap elements on a lark, and the character himself picks up Fear immunity, +2 natural armor, a scaling single-target buff, and then eventually +6 Strength and the ability to grow Large for more stats. Could Crossblood for extra points. I even tossed around the idea of Crossblooding with Draconic, doing Magus 8/Dragon Disciple 10 instead of the Swash levels. +16 Strength once you grow Large. Hurts your BAB though.

[Choant]

Eldritch scion 20/ paladin 20
eldritch scion 20/ dual blooded sorcerer(orc, dragon)1 paladin 19
zen monk 20/ ranger 20
master summoner 20/ bard 20

[LoneKnave]

I'm thinking a Bloodrager/Scarred Witch could be pretty good. Bloodragers actually have a feat that lets them cast non-bloodrager spells while bloodraging. So your DCs will be kinda incredible.

[Mackenzie Kavanaugh]

Kaouse wrote:

A few of my ideas:

Kensai Magus 20|| Mindchemist Alchemist 20(+Psychonaut for good measure)

Why not go for the vivisectionest archetype and get sneak attacks? You can still learn cognatogen as a discovery, and sneak attack seems far more useful to the build than bombs.

[Lynxden]

Not sure if this has shown up before on this thread, and I haven't really looked into the mechanics of it, but I always thought a Barbarian//Synthesist Summoner would be really cool.

[Koshimo]

I haven't read everything, but Synthesis Summoner + Full BAB Class is full of all the win you use your basic stats for the mental side, plus any available buff spells, and then use the full bab martial to do everything else

[Kryzbyn]

Eldritch Scion Magus/Inspired Blade Swashie is fun.

[Abdénago]

kestral287 wrote:

Kaouse wrote:

How does the Wizard have better casting than the Arcanist? They both have 9 level spellcasting. As for combining the Wizard with a martial, the Wizard doesn't get access to Spellstrike.

Getting spells earlier + more spells per day thanks to the school + gets better use of most casting-boosting items. I'm also personally not a fan of the Arcanist's mixed casting setup because it seems like you're just saddling yourself with the weaknesses of both, but I freely admit that that's a personal dislike.

If it's not too much of a derail, I wanted to address the "more spells per day" claim here. TL;DR: School Savant arcanist is the way to go if you want to maximise the number of spells you get per day and the standard arcanist matches the wizard for spells over the first couple of levels, falling far behind only in the mid- to upper levels.

Spoiler:

Not taking into account bonus spells, because high intelligence benefits them both equally and lumping spells of all levels together (not including cantrips), the columns are "standard" arcanist with a bonded item, a wizard with school specialization and bonded item, and a School Savant arcanist that takes a bonded item (through the extra exploit feat, if necessary):

Lvl1: AR 3, WZ 3, SS 4
Lvl2: AR 4, WZ 4, SS 5
Lvl3: AR 5, WZ 6, SS 6
Lvl4: AR 7, WZ 8, SS 9
Lvl5: AR 8, WZ 10, SS 10
Lvl6: AR 11, WZ 12, SS 14
Lvl7: AR 12, WZ 15, SS 15
Lvl8: AR 15, WZ 17, SS 19
Lvl9: AR 16, WZ 20, SS 20
Lvl10: AR 19, WZ 22, SS 24
LVl11: AR 20, WZ 25, SS 25
Lvl12: AR 23, WZ 27, SS 29
LVl13: AR 24, WZ 30, SS 30
Lvl14: AR 27, WZ 32, SS 34
Lvl15: AR 28, WZ 35, SS 35
Lvl16: AR 31, WZ 37, SS 39
Lvl17: AR 32, WZ 40, SS 40
Lvl18: AR 35, WZ 42, SS 44
Lvl19: AR 36, WZ 43, SS 45
Lvl20: AR 37, WZ 44, SS 46

So the standard arcanist only really starts to get outdistanced in total number of spells by the wizard around, I guess, level 9 and actually keeps up at the beginning. The School Savant arcanist is always going to have the most spells, though on odd levels it ties with the wizard due to the wizard's early access.

The early access is nothing to sneeze at, but one other important observation: Wizards get 1 2nd level spell at third level and the arcanist gets none. But at fourth level, the arcanist has just as many and by fifth level has more. So the wizard gets early access, but the arcanist gets more at the new level within two levels of getting access, meaning it can make more of them.

That said, I love wizards too much to convert.

[kestral287]

Abdénago wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

Kaouse wrote:

How does the Wizard have better casting than the Arcanist? They both have 9 level spellcasting. As for combining the Wizard with a martial, the Wizard doesn't get access to Spellstrike.

Getting spells earlier + more spells per day thanks to the school + gets better use of most casting-boosting items. I'm also personally not a fan of the Arcanist's mixed casting setup because it seems like you're just saddling yourself with the weaknesses of both, but I freely admit that that's a personal dislike.

If it's not too much of a derail, I wanted to address the "more spells per day" claim here. TL;DR: School Savant arcanist is the way to go if you want to maximise the number of spells you get per day and the standard arcanist matches the wizard for spells over the first couple of levels, falling far behind only in the mid- to upper levels.

Worth noting that a level 1 School Savant can't take Extra Exploit. It's not an option until level 5.

Also worth noting that School Savant wasn't the archetype specifically being discussed, Blade Adept was.

I mean, School Specialist is solid, but going School Specialist is an entirely different build than what was pitched.

On another note: Has anybody mentioned Barbarian/Oracle? It's kind of ridiculously awesome:

Barbarian's standard offense applies, now supplemented by 9th-level divine casting

Good Will saves make Barbarians happy. Cha-to-AC (meaning Dex can be tanked) and Divine Protection for Cha-to-saves make Barbarians very happy. This removes the need for the Superstition line for different rage powers or augments it to totally mock casters.

Oracle, on the other hand, benefits from good Fort saves, full BAB, and martial weapons making it a much more capable front-liner.

Oracle grants automatic rage cycling from level 5. Conversely, Barbarian can offset the speed loss of the Lame curse or accept it for Invulnerable Rager.

With Lunar, four natural attacks is possible from level 3, though I'd probably delay it until 5. Battle is an option for a weapon build but you lose Cha-to-AC, which kinda sucks. Personally I'd also take Dual Cursed so I could abuse Fortune/Misfortune.

The Mad Magic feat lets you cast while raging without losing any bonuses. It's a 1/rage thing... but see the above about rage cycling.

Cha opens up lots of cool feats. Hello there, Battle Cry and Eldritch Heritage (not that you're likely to have room for Heritage, but it's the thought that counts).

Half-Elf lets you qualify for basically every good FCB between the two classes (Human for Barbarian, not that you're likely to need it, Elf and Half-Elf both for Oracle). Even if your GM (wisely) rules that Half-Elves can still only benefit from one FCB bonus per level, this is a win.

It's thematically awesome.

[Avoron]

Wow. That is pretty spectacular.

If it were me, I'd go Lunar, with Primal Companion (increased with favored class bonus), Prophetic Armor, Gift of Claw and Horn, and Form of the Beast.

Your rage power natural attacks can be used while in Form of the Beast, as can your Gift of Claw and Horn attacks.

I also might go bloodrager instead of barbarian, but that's mostly just preference.

This would be amazing to play.

[kestral287]

The reason I leaned Barbarian was because you really don't need the Bloodrager's casting at this point and its superior version of Mad Magic is largely outweighed by the Oracle's inbuilt Rage Cycling. That brings it down to bloodlines vs. rage powers, and between the two in a vacuum I'd vastly prefer the Rage Powers (faster Pounce access, Spell Sunder, Greater Elemental Blood (Air), Strength Surge, more shenganigans).

I did seriously consider Bloodrager though, and even if I think it's slightly worse, it's certainly not bad and you can make a very strong case for it being every bit as good. Largely a preference thing.

My GM also let slip that he doesn't think the Mystic Theurge is broken in gestalt, on the basis that he's seen a quad-caster gestalt in 3.5. I'm inclined to make him regret this with Oracle 10/Sorcerer 10/Daring Champion 10/Mystic Theurge 10, with the first five levels Soracle, then 10 DC/Theurge, then 5 more Sorcerer/Oracle. 17 BAB, +10 to damage Precise Strike, +10 to damage challenge, 9th level casting on arcane and divine fronts. Also, again, Cha-to-AC and Cha-to-saves makes you a defensive monstrosity since you have no reason to /not/ start with 20 Cha and push it upwards as high as you can. Invest in Intimidate and take Antagonize? I think so.

Since the same GM waived the two-prestige-classes-at-once bit, I'm heavily tempted to try to work in Evangelist for more Cha off the Spiritual Form, but I don't like the lost caster level that would come off of it no matter how it was spliced in. Figuring out the bloodline/mystery is my current pain. For raw power I'd lean Nanite for the bloodline (it's rather front-loaded and isn't as level-dependent), but the thematic ties aren't gelling for me. Battle is an awesome Oracle mystery for this, so that's an option at least. Time is tempting too though.

I'll probably never actually run it because I like my current character too much, but it's got some hilarious potential.

[Mackenzie Kavanaugh]

For Evangelist... couldn't you select Mystic Theurge as your Aligned Class? (Sure, it's total cheese, but that would mean taking Evangelist 1 / Mystic Theurge 1 at level 6 and then just taking 9 levels of Evangelist to finish off Mystic Theurge at level 15, same as before, giving you 9 levels of something else to work with still.)

On the topic of weaving classes, don't forget that, for a bit of extra cheese if you have access to aasimar/tiefling (or another race with a level 2 arcane SLA), you can go mystic theurge at level 4 and open up new options. For example, you can weave mystic theurge in with a prestige class which doesn't grant full casting and still get 20/20 casting at level 20. For example:

1. oracle 1 / sorcerer 1
2. oracle 2 / sorcerer 2
3. oracle 3 / sorcerer 3
4. anything* 1 / mystic theurge 1
5. anything* 2 / mystic theurge 2
6. dragon disciple 1 / mystic theurge 3
7. dragon disciple 2 / oracle 4
8. dragon disciple 3 / oracle 5
9. dragon disciple 4 / oracle 6
10. dragon disciple 5 / mystic theurge 4
11. dragon disciple 6 / oracle 7
12. dragon disciple 7 / oracle 8
13. dragon disciple 8 / oracle 9
14. dragon disciple 9 / mystic theurge 5
15. dragon disciple 10 / oracle 10
16. anything* 3 / mystic theurge 6
17. anything* 4 / mystic theurge 7
18. anything* 5 / mystic theurge 8
19. anything* 6 / mystic theurge 9
20. anything* 7 / mystic theurge 10

* you could put pretty much any class you like here, such as Daring champion. Also, you could still do the trick with Evangelist in this build, by taking Evangelist 1 / Mystic Theurge 4 at level 7 and targeting Dragon Disciple with your Aligned Class.

[JonGarrett]

I'm not sure it's exactly optimal, but I'd love to do a Gunslinger/Rogue carrying a double hackbut and using the Savage Critical to make a one-shot, one-kill style character. Each round, using Vital Strike, would inflict 4d10 + 4d6 plus dexterity per shot at, say, level 7. It would, however, only be one shot per round sooo....

[kestral287]

Grabbing Theurge as the aligned class... can work. Take Theurge//Evangelist at level 6, then from 7-15 Daring Champion//Evangelist. I like it. Knocks one off BAB (unless fractional accounting is going on at least), but that's acceptable.

I'd set aside early-entry shenanigans because off-hand I don't think there's any way for an Oracle to get 2nd level casting early to break in. If there is, it's not in Lunar or Lore, which are the two with Cha-to-AC (unless there's a third and I'm an idiot). Lunar can get 3rd level arcane pretty quickly, but that's not the same. So I can get one of the requirements easily, off of race, but not the other. Since the build can't wear armor (beyond Silken Ceremonial at least), Cha-to-AC is a pretty big deal. I'm sad Battle doesn't have it; that pretty much killed my incentive to take that mystery. Ah well.

Thank you for your help though, it's certainly given me something to ponder.

[Avoron]

You can get early entry to mystic theurge by being an agathion-blooded scion of humanity aasimar with Racial Heritage (drow) and Spider Step. That option also has great ability scores for this purpose.

But in gestalt, early entry isn't quite as important, so make of that what you will.

[Mackenzie Kavanaugh]

kestral287 wrote:

Grabbing Theurge as the aligned class... can work. Take Theurge//Evangelist at level 6, then from 7-15 Daring Champion//Evangelist. I like it. Knocks one off BAB (unless fractional accounting is going on at least), but that's acceptable.

I'd set aside early-entry shenanigans because off-hand I don't think there's any way for an Oracle to get 2nd level casting early to break in. If there is, it's not in Lunar or Lore, which are the two with Cha-to-AC (unless there's a third and I'm an idiot). Lunar can get 3rd level arcane pretty quickly, but that's not the same. So I can get one of the requirements easily, off of race, but not the other. Since the build can't wear armor (beyond Silken Ceremonial at least), Cha-to-AC is a pretty big deal. I'm sad Battle doesn't have it; that pretty much killed my incentive to take that mystery. Ah well.

Thank you for your help though, it's certainly given me something to ponder.

If you don't mind spending a feat and are going to put at least a 13 in Wisdom, you can always take Believer's Boon to pick up the necessary 2nd level SLA via the Trickery Domain. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot of options for deities to worship in order to pick it up, but I'm pretty sure that's a kosher option.

Avoron wrote:

You can get early entry to mystic theurge by being an agathion-blooded scion of humanity aasimar with Racial Heritage (drow) and Spider Step. That option also has great ability scores for this purpose.

But in gestalt, early entry isn't quite as important, so make of that what you will.

It doesn't matter as much, no... but it's kinda mandatory if you want to do class weaving and take a second casting non-full Prestige Class all the way to 10, like Dragon Disciple.

[Kaouse]

Mystic Theurge with Dragon Disciple and both Sorcerer and Oracle...wasn't there a new feat that allowed you to count Dragon Disciple levels towards your Oracle Mystery?

Not sure if you could still count it towards Sorcerer bloodline at the same time though. I think you could progress sorcerer with Bloodmage though, if you took 10 levels of her.

As for the oracle DD feat, I think you needed to be kobold, but racial heritage solves that.

[TriMarkC]

Elamdri wrote:

I was also thinking about maybe Paladin/Inquisitor.

I'm playing in a gestalt game right now with exactly that combo of Inquisitor & Paladin! Loads of fun, too! I'm playing him as a wise tank, who follows two gods. The gods in question have agreed to this but have also "assigned" me a very sarcastic "angel" as their liaison to me ... who has a thing for hitting my char up side the head when I ask stupid questions of "her". But in battle - its all rock and roll, with a bit of up-front fighting, some major healing as needed, and now able to share my Smite Evil ability, too.

[Joynt Jezebel]

Mackenzie Kavanaugh wrote:

For Evangelist... couldn't you select Mystic Theurge as your Aligned Class? (Sure, it's total cheese, but that would mean taking Evangelist 1 / Mystic Theurge 1 at level 6 and then just taking 9 levels of Evangelist to finish off Mystic Theurge at level 15, same as before, giving you 9 levels of something else to work with still.)

On the topic of weaving classes, don't forget that, for a bit of extra cheese if you have access to aasimar/tiefling (or another race with a level 2 arcane SLA), you can go mystic theurge at level 4 and open up new options. For example, you can weave mystic theurge in with a prestige class which doesn't grant full casting and still get 20/20 casting at level 20. For example:

1. oracle 1 / sorcerer 1
2. oracle 2 / sorcerer 2
3. oracle 3 / sorcerer 3
4. anything* 1 / mystic theurge 1
5. anything* 2 / mystic theurge 2
6. dragon disciple 1 / mystic theurge 3
7. dragon disciple 2 / oracle 4
8. dragon disciple 3 / oracle 5
9. dragon disciple 4 / oracle 6
10. dragon disciple 5 / mystic theurge 4
11. dragon disciple 6 / oracle 7
12. dragon disciple 7 / oracle 8
13. dragon disciple 8 / oracle 9
14. dragon disciple 9 / mystic theurge 5
15. dragon disciple 10 / oracle 10
16. anything* 3 / mystic theurge 6
17. anything* 4 / mystic theurge 7
18. anything* 5 / mystic theurge 8
19. anything* 6 / mystic theurge 9
20. anything* 7 / mystic theurge 10

* you could put pretty much any class you like here, such as Daring champion. Also, you could still do the trick with Evangelist in this build, by taking Evangelist 1 / Mystic Theurge 4 at level 7 and targeting Dragon Disciple with your Aligned Class.

I think I can improve on this [already very] good idea a bit.

You have 40 class levels in total.
There are ways of getting into mystic theurge with only 1 level of a divine and arcane casting class. So if you take 9 levels of mystic theurge and 1 of the arcane casting class you get 10 levels of arcane casting. Then you take 11 levels of divine caster and get... 19 levels of divine caster.
If you take 10 levels of a psionic class and 10 levels of cerebremancer, that gives you 20 levels of psionics and 10 of arcane casting.
So you manage to get 59 levels of casting or manifesting out of your 40 levels.
Finally, when you go up a gestalt level, you get the best of the two for saving throws, hit points and BaB [if you care about BaB at all, you might not].
So plan ahead a bit and think about getting the most of these things at each level. You should be able to get a BaB of 19 at level 20 if you want to [there is no way around getting no BaB increase at lvl 1 unless you take a class like fighter or barbarian as one of your 2 lvl 1 classes.

If you desire rogue stuff more than psionics or divine casting, just make some obvious changes to the above, substituting in rogue and arcane trickster.

Is this powergaming, well, maybe a little.

[Lord Foul II]

Let's have fun with alchemists
Rouge/alchimest (grenadier) you roll so many dice

Alchemist (vivisectionist, rage chemist)/invulnerable barbarian
Make Bruce banner weep tears of envy

Alchemist/myramidarch magus or trapper ranger (archery path)
Now you've made hawkeye, green arrow, speedy and a dozen others turn green as the hulk

[Joynt Jezebel]

How about this. It is particularly suitable for operating alone or in a very small group.

Steps-

1 Push your mental abilities through the roof using all 3 physical stats as dump stats.

2 Select a race or class scheme where you can qualify for mystic theurge with SLAs.

3 Take your first 5 lvls as-

Synthesist Summoner Cleric

Synthesist Summoner Rogue

Synthesist Summoner Wizard

Synthesist Summoner Mystic Theurge

Synthesist Summoner Mystic Theurge

4 You have 30 lvls, effectively to go. How you go from here is a matter of individual taste.
Say you take-

8 more, total 10 lvls mystic theurge
9 levels arcane trickster
13 more, total 18 lvls sythesist summoner.

Eidelons don't give you a chance of arcane spell failure. You rely on the eidelon for physical stats and melee ability, and with 18 levels and you should be able to engineer a BaB 19 you are excellent hand to hand. You have a suite of utile spells as well.

Casting as a lvl 20 wizard is top level arcane spells.

Casting as a lvl 11 cleric is more useful than devastating, but it gives you a lot more spells and options and you can readily replenish lost HPs.

The Rogue ability is again useful rather than devastating, but is a good sideline and your sneak attacks really hurt.

And you have some neat tricks like sneaky and shared spells. A one character party.

[Benjamin Milarch]

I know the presumed gold standard is all great saves and full BAB, but I would say the action economy and feature synergy is probably more important.

Attacking is only so good, and an entire party wading into smash a monster while casting spells is a lot of stepping on toes.

I would say one of the most flavorful options would be Skald/Master Summoner.

Build your own army, and then crank it to 11! Rage powers, morale bonuses, arcane buff spells, and charming to boot.

The charisma and class features play well out of combat, the master summoner always has a tool for the job, and the skald is always Mr. Fun Times.

Raging, augmented, superior summoned critters with haste and pounce would be a very fun chipper-shredder build.

[Kaouse]

^Totemic Skalds can add Animal Focus to that, I think someone mentioned.

[Artanthos]

ulgulanoth wrote:

sorcerer/oracle springs to mind as does monk/cleric and magus/fighter

On the other hand stay away from wizard/fighter, unless you either go without armour or like rolling for spell failure

Kensai/Wizard: High AC, good melee, full caster; all simultaneously.

Urban Barbarian/Rogue: Melee monster/skill monkey

Summoner/Fighter: Tough as nails melee monster, and the eidolon is decent too.

Druid/Monk: Flurry of Blows stegosaurus.

[Joynt Jezebel]

ulgulanoth wrote:

Urban Barbarian/Rogue: Melee monster/skill monkey

Druid/Monk: Flurry of Blows stegosaurus.

Urban Barbarian/Rogue: Melee monster/skill monkey can be improved upon methinks.

You can do the Melee monster/skill monkey w/o gestalt by just going barbarian evangelist. If you time the levels right you won't lose any BaB.

So do that in one class and take spellcasting or manifesting in the other.

The other idea is genius however. I think that may be how the dinosaurs died out on Golarion, the druid/monk killed them all.

[Kaouse]

If you wanted to have the most immunities, how would you do it?

A Paladin 20/Unbreakable Fighter 20 can get:

Immunity to fear
Immunity to disease
Immunity to charms & compulsions
Immunity to mind-affecting

Though I wonder if an immunity to mind-affecting is worth 20 levels of unbreakable fighter when you are already a Paladin with eventual immunity to charms and compulsions. Aren't they basically the same thing?

Could another class Gestalted with the Paladin be immune to more?

I guess a Spellbreaker Inquisitor could work.

Alternatively, if there's a way for a Wizard to permanently become a construct or something...

If you could then, you could get construct immunities to pretty much the entire enchantment and necromancy schools, or so I hear. Add that to Mind Blank against Divination and True Seeing against Illusion and you have quite the host of immunities.

Plus, a Spellbreaker Inquisitor can choose to be immune to any other school of their choice, so if you choose Abjuration you get the benefit of being immune to Wizard killer spells like Anti-Magic Field or Mage's Disjunction and whatnot.

[Mackenzie Kavanaugh]

Well, there's also stuff like immunities to elemental damage and such. I forget if there's a way outside of Way of the Wicked to become undead, but that adds a number of immunities too. (And an undead paladin who remained Lawful Good would be interesting to play.)

[Kaouse]

What would people say to this kind of combination:

Iroran Paladin 16/Bloodrager 4 || Kensai Magus 16/ MOMS 2 / Inquisitor 2

Wisdom to Ac from Monk
Charisma to AC (Max 16) from Paladin
Intellignece to AC (Max 16) from Magus

Inquisitor gives you Wis to your initiative.
Kensai Magus gives you Int to initiative
And thanks to the Noble Scion feat, you can add Charisma to your Initiative instead of DEX.

On top of that, you get Full Bab, decent saves and d10 HD (with some d12 for good measure).

Both Paladin and Magus can enhance their weapons, and Magus can get Int as a to-hit bonus with Arcane Accuracy. If against a flat-footed opponent they can add Int to damage as well.

Bloodrager can get you the "Lesser Spirit Totem" rage power which basically gives you an extra attack that uses your Charisma for your to-hit and damage. Barbarian would be better, but then you run into the whole "alignment restrictions" between Paladins/Monks and Barbarians which thankfully, Bloodragers don't have.

If you have the Guided Hand feat, you can use WIS in order to hit, and if you are allowed the "Guided" weapon property on things (especially if you can use your Arcane Pool or Divine Bond to place it there with a nice enough DM) then you can use your Wis bonus in place of Str for both attack and damage rolls.

If everything's working properly, you can play a REALLY REALLY old man who's difficult as f+$# to take down.

"I'm too old to be scared of that monster. Back in my day we didn't have any of that fancy shmancy 'Power Attack' biz, and if you could do more than 10 damage a round, the DM's would kill you for being a munchkin, blah blah blah"

The only way to make this better would be to have a ludicrously nice/insane DM who allows you to play as an undead race and use CHA for health.

That said, trying to make MAD become SAD does require heavy investment, so it's definitely not optimal (though it can be fun if you start at high enough level).

A much more effective build would probably be a Eldritch Scion Magus || Synthesist Summoner.

No longer would you have to choose between spellcasting and fighting, since Magi can do both. Also, Pounce + insane amount of natural attacks + Frostbite feat line = tremendous damage.

Eldritch Scion is just there to make you less mad and even more SAD than you already are as a Synthesist, though if your DM is nice, he'd let you be a Suli and take Elemental Knight on top of it (if I remember correctly, both remove spell recall, but not improved spell recall, so you might be able to trade that ability away as well, though I might be wrong in the case of Eldritch Scion, but again, DM call).

Tons of natural attacks + Elemental Assualt = even more ludicrous amounts of damage. Plus, Eldritch Scion sucks a lot less when combined with Elemental Knight, that's for sure.

Of course, if SAD is what you're looking for, nothing beats a Nature Mystery (Lore or Lunar also work, but the Cha to reflex is wasted, unlike Cha to CMD) Oracle x Paladin, who with some finagling, can have 5x their Charisma bonus to their AC while naked and 2x their Charisma bonus to their saves.

Plus, they can add their Cha bonus to attack rolls with Smite (though in order to do this they restrict themselves to only 4x Cha AC, which is more than worth it since Iroran Paladin sucks anyway).

Unlike the other builds, they still get 9th level casting on top of a Paladin's awesome martial chasis.

[kestral287]

Keep in mind the rule about stat-to-X bonuses not stacking unless they're specific types. Cha-to-AC can't stack unless you have, say, generic Cha to AC plus Cha as an armor bonus.

[Kaouse]

I'm assuming you're talking about the Oradin Ac.

Nature Whispers => CHA instead of DEX to AC and CMD
2nd Celestial Boon (Arshea) => CHA as Armor Bonus
Osyluth's Guile => CHA as Dodge Bonus
Smite Evil => CHA as Deflection Bonus

Note that Oracles can cast "Bestow Grace of the Champion" so they can get all 4 by themselves.

Then Iroran Paladins can add CHA again to Dodge, and Dodge Bonuses stack

Though, since I forgot Iroran Paladiins lose Smite, you'll need to prestiege into the 3 level Chevalier class for Character Level dependent Smite Evil...once per day >.>. Still, unless you have more than 44 CHA, you'll still get the full 5x CHA.

So assuming 20 CHA to start, +5 Level +5 Inherent +6 Enhancement +4 Sacred (Mystery Cultist PrC for earlier Celestial Boons also gives +4 Charisma) = 40 CHA for a +15 bonus.

That's 70-85 AC and +36-42 to saves (Wand of "Bestow Grace" FTW) before items.

To be fair though, AC is only that high against a single opponent, due to the mechanisms of Smite Evil and Osyluth's Guile.

Furthermore, that Sacred Bonus only lasts for rounds per level (max 10), which also lowers the numbers a bit.

[Kaouse]

Fixing up the above Charisma-whore build, we have this:

Sorcerer 4 || Oracle 4
Mystic Theurge 10 || Magus (Eldritch Scion) 9 / Eldritch Knight 1
Eldritch Knight 2 - 7 || Oracle 5 - 10

This way, we end up with 16 BAB (4 attacks) and no loss in caster level on either side.

But wait, there's more! 6+ Magus levels allows for the use of both your oracle and sorcerer spells with Spell Combat and Spellstrike! More still, the Eldritch Scion makes every class ability rely on Charisma, instead of Intelligence. This specifically includes Magus Arcana such as Arcane Accuracy, and Spell Shield!

If you are a Nature Oracle, you can select the Nature's Whispers Revelation to get CHA instead of DEX to AC and CMD. With the 2nd Boon from Celestial Obedience to Arshea, you gain the ability to use CHA as an armor bonus to AC. With the Magus Arcana Spell Shield, you can get your CHA as a shield bonus to AC. Better yet, if you get a wand of Neried's Grace, you can gain CHA as a deflection bonus to AC! So already you get your CHA to AC 4 legal times! But if you wanted, you could increase that number to 5 legal times with Osyluth's Guile (CHA as Dodge Bonus)!

Theoretically, you could even get Dodging Panache from the Amateur Swashbuckler feat, and gain another Dodge bonus equal to your Charisma (though note, both it and Spellshield require immediate actions, and both expend limited resource pools...based on your CHA).

But aside from the high AC, it's also possible to have high offensive presence as well. A Human with Racial Heritage: Lizardfolk (or an actual Lizardfolk, if allowed) can take the "Cold-Blooded Lizardfolk" Oracle Curse. At level 15 (which you qualify for with 10 Oracle levels and 10 non-oracle levels being counted at half value), you gain the ability to take an extra move action a number of times per day equivalent to your CHA modifier.

That's right, you basically have pounce.

Plus, as a level 9 Magus, you have the ability to increase the enhancement bonus of your weapon by +3. If you choose to be Bladebound, then you have a free +3 sword that you can enhance to +5 (with a +1 ability like Keen) at literally any time, with no cost to yourself.

Speaking of no cost to yourself, access to both huge spell lists and twice the amount of spells makes it more than possible to buff yourself up enough to cast wish with the spell "Blood Money."

No Magic Jars Needed:

Quote:

Starting STR: 12

SPELL: Form of the Dragon III = +10 size bonus to STR
SPELL: Blood Rage = +10 morale bonus to STR
SPELL: Heart of the Mammoth = +8 enhancement bonus to STR
SPELL: Eagle Soul = +4 Sacred Bonus to STR

ITEM: Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess = +8 Inherent Bonus to STR

TOTAL: +40 STR
End STR: 52

STR needed to cast Wish: 50 (51 to not be paralyzed)

NOTE: If you start off with 16 STR, you can use a regular +6 Belt for the enhancement bonus, and Improved ELdritch Heritage with the Orc or Abyssal bloodlines for a free +6 Inherent bonus.

If you need to get around the "multiple castings" issue, just use a Ring of Angel Summoning to summon 1d3 Monadic Devas with Summon Monster IX, all of whom come with a free Heal spell to eliminate ability score damage.

And of course, there are things like Initiative and saves to consider. With the Noble Scion feat, you can use your Charisma as the ability check for Initiative, leaving you more than capable of dumping DEX. Plus, with Celestial Obedience to Arshea, you get a free +4 on all charisma checks and Charisma based ability checks, which works on Initiative checks, as the Circlet of Persuasion discussion proves (which you could also put on for a +7 to CHA checks).

Then, as a Nature Oracle, the Revelation, "Natural Divination" can give you such useful things like a single +4 bonus on Initiative, or a single use of your CHA as an insight bonus (which stacks with the sacred bonus from a Bestow Grace level 2 paladin spell you can get on a wand AND with the Divine Protection feat) on any save. At 10th level, you could spend 20 minutes in the morning to get both bonuses once over the course of the next 24 hours.

Wrapping things up, we have the Bloodlines, to tie everything into a nice bow. The Eldritch Scion Bloodrager bloodlines aren't all that useful since you have to spend arcane pool points to use them for tiny amount of time, but I personally like Aberrant, for the immunity to nauseation and Sickening that you have access to on a dime. More importantly for a level 9 caster though, is the Arcane Bloodline, for the Sorcerer. Primarily the level 3 ability that allows you to add metamagic to a spell without increasing casting time. It may only be once per day, but it's damn useful to have the option when you need it.

More importantly though, it grants you a familiar, which greatly increases your action economy. If you wanted, you could also grab an Animal Companion from the Oracle's Nature Bond feature.

For all intents and purposes, you are a God at level 20. Basically, you're Nethys Jr.

[Kaouse]

For even more fun, you could replace the first level of magus (since honestly, only 8 levels are needed for Spell Combat without having to spend arcane pool points) with something like a Synthesist Summoner. Completely invalidate all of your physical stats and whore your Charisma out to new heights by being venerable age!

Oh the fun that can be had in the magical world of theorycrafting.

[Faceless Soul]

Did no one mention Investigator 20//Slayer 20?

[Lord Foul II]

Want to be the most lawful law enforcing party member who ever law-ed?
Go with paladin 20/warpriest (blessing of law)10/hell knight commander 10

[Kaouse]

Kaouse wrote:

For even more fun, you could replace the first level of magus (since honestly, only 8 levels are needed for Spell Combat without having to spend arcane pool points) with something like a Synthesist Summoner. Completely invalidate all of your physical stats and whore your Charisma out to new heights by being venerable age!

Oh the fun that can be had in the magical world of theorycrafting.

Okay, I'm bloating up this thread, but I knew there was something else I forgot.

Instead of taking the Synthesist Summoner level that you are replacig one of your 9 Magus levels for, you can--at level 7 at the earliest--take a level of the Agent of the Grave Prestige Class. This gives you access to Unholy Fortitude. Unholy Fortitude allows you, from Level 7 onwards, to use your Charisma bonus to determine your Hit points, instead of Constitution. This can arguably make you much hardier and difficult to take down than if you simply used a Level 1 Eidolon as a skin.

[kestral287]

I like the way you think Kaouse.

Personally I'd keep the eight Magus levels, but Magus 9 isn't really granting a whole lot unless you really like Accurate Strikes. Agent is a perfect replacement.

[Legowaffles]

I've been toying around in my mind with the idea of making a Gestalt DSP Psion Blaster.

On the Psion side, the character would either be Kineticist Discipline, or Dual Discipline with either the secondary or primary being Kineticist.

The other side of the Gestalt would be DSP Tactician.

Assuming the low estimate of 30 Intelligence at level 20, the Hypothetical character would have 886 Power Points. That's enough PP to manifest a ML 25 (ML Boosting Trait, Overchannel, and a Ioun Stone) Energy Ball 35 times with PP left over. Said ML 25 Energy Ball would deal 25d6 points of damage, potentially more (or less), and require a Fortitude or Reflex Save for half damage vs a DC of 33 before any other modifiers.

I'm reasonably certain I'm forgetting a few ways to boost the ML on it as well.

[The Dragon]

At ML 25, you're really probably going to get better return by using metapsionic.

25d6=3.5*25=87.5dmg on average.

Empowered Energy Ball, uses psi focus and deals
25d6*1.5=131.25 on average.

Maximized energy ball uses focus and deals
21*6=126 damage. Empower is better when we're talking these # of dice.

Twin ray allows you to double damage.

Economy blasting would be Twin Ray'ed Psionic Disintegrate, which, for the low, low cost of 13pp, allows for 44d6 damage(154) to one target, but allows for a fortitude save to reduce it to 5d6 per ray.

If you like that one,

I think there was a feat somewhere that allowed for +1dc/2pp you spent on a power, including metamagic... that one would be nice. Then we could go for metapsionic mastery + empower + twin ray'ed + twinned

Base cost 11, +6 twin, +2 twin ray, +2 empower, +4 to ignore psionic focus on twin & twin ray.

22d6*2(twin)*2(twin ray)*1.5(Emp)=462 damage on average. If I remembered right about that other feat, dc 33 fortitude, and you need to hit 4 touch attacks.

Still, it's pretty nice, and, as you said,

[Kaouse]

Another idea for a Gestalt was a Stonelord Paladin || Martial Artist Monk

Full Saves
Max BAB
d10 Hit Die
Immune to Fear
Immune to Petrification
Immune to Bleed & Blood Drain
Immune to Paralysis
Immune to Poison
Immune to Stunning
Immune to Fatigue
Immune to Exhaustion
Immune to Charms
Immune to Compulsions
Immune to Death Effects & Energy Drain
Immune to Critical Hits & Precision Damage

On top of that you have the ability to ignore 5 points of Ability Damage/Drain/Penalty, DR 10/Adamantine, Self Healing through Lay on Hands, and the ability to remove disease with a mercy.

Offensively, you can ignore hardness and DR with a swift action (gaining a +2 to attack), boost your attack and damage rolls by up to 5 for your level times a day, and even a small "Rage" like state that increases your AC instead of decreasing it, at the cost of not moving much while you full attack.

You also gain access to a few interesting "Psuedo-Rage" Powers, such as the ability to halt movement into a threatened space, or becoming immune to sickening and nausea. You could even reroll Will saves. Not that you should need it too badly with Steel Soul and Glory of the Old.

I was thinking on how best to optimize this gestalt for high level play. The downsides to this class are that some of your boons (such as DR 10/adamantine) are halved when not standing on the ground or "a stone structure." Considering they do give you an Elder Earth Elemental, which in their descriptions are likened to earth structures like hills or piles of rock, could riding an Earth Elemental allow you to retain your full bonuses?

Also, are there any obvious weaknesses to the gestalt?

[Kaouse]

Also, would it be a good idea to VMC Barbarian for access to Spell Sunder?

[Atarlost]

There's one colossal weakness to that gestalt: it's not a caster.