Best Gestalt Build - Assume optimal ability scores.


Advice

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Silver Crusade

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So the other night I introduced a friend of mine to the concept of gestalt classes and he really got into it. We spent a lot of time tossing out ideas for some good options, but none of us have ever really run a game with them before.

I was curious as to what some of the best options that are available, assuming that you have the ability scores to make it work.

There are some classes that seem like they would work really well, like Paladins, Magus, Alchemist, Barbarian, Inquisitors, and Wizard/Sorcerers, with a lot of our stuff coming back to classes like Magus that have better action economy for their abilities.

Dark Archive

sorcerer/oracle springs to mind as does monk/cleric and magus/fighter

On the other hand stay away from wizard/fighter, unless you either go without armour or like rolling for spell failure

Silver Crusade

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We kept coming back to magus a lot as a really good class to combine.

Dark Archive

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IMO, Druid/Monk is a nearly unstoppable killing machine.


I think the general principle is combine classes with the same primary stat and complimenting special ability sets. Usually a good idea to get full spells or full bab (or both) if you can. And as you mentioned, action economy is pretty important. Something like and Inquisitor/Rogue wouldn't be a great option for instance.

Other than the ones mentioned, I think Magus/Witch and Paladin/Oracle would be pretty good.


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Carbon D. Metric wrote:
IMO, Druid/Monk is a nearly unstoppable killing machine.

Circle kicking bear! (For anyone who played NWN ;D)

@OP: Typically Gestalt works best when you take a 'Passive Class' and an 'Active Class' whose saves, HD, and BAB combine to give you >=D10, all good saves, full bab.

eg. Gunslinger/Witch, Cleric or Druid/Monk, Barbarian/Scarred Witch Doctor, Paladin/Sorcerer or Oracle

You can even PrC with them as long as you don't advance the same class features twice at any given level. Gunslinger or Ranger/Wizard, Witch, Or Sage -> Duelist/EK

Classes that sit halfway between other classes like Magus or Bard or Inqusitor are doable with gestalt, you just have to pick another class that compliments the character's role with those classes. It can be a little difficult since they're already jack-of-all-trade classes.


Magus plus barbarian. Alchemist plus Rogue/ninja/gunslinger. Really Alchemist and Magus are the best classes to use. Otherwise having one class a fighter for the feats is one of the better option

Magus Barbarian is awesome because you get to use your rage powers in tandum with spell casting, with the rage power moment of clarity, you can do some extra smashing with spells while raging.

Rogue plus alchemist or gunslinger is awesome, because all three classes do very well inside of 30 feet, the rogue and the alchemist love int, they all need dex, and if you are human, there is a decent alt of gunslinger archetype called buccaneer, that lets you use charisma, which is always good for the ninja/rogue


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Zen Archer/Empyreal Sorcerer

Self buff with Mage Armor, Self buff with Gravity Bow. Limited healing ability if you are good. You basically have a SAD character (Wisdom for the win), and a sorcerer with a hefty AC/Touch AC.


Paladin/Oracle of battle. Charisma to saves, smite attack rolls, smite AC, spell saves, bonus spells. Access to all manner of normaly cleric only buffs. etc. It's pretty much crazy pants.

- Torger

Silver Crusade

A few ideas I was considering:

Vengeance Paladin/Draconic Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple

Vengeance Paladin/Black Blade Kensai Magus

Druid/Master of Many Styles Monk

Barbarian/Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist

Teleportation Wizard/Sorcerer

Pistolero Gunslinger/Inquisitor


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Penultimate Cheesemonger: Bard/Summoner
Ultimate Cheesemonger: Use the master summoner archetype.

The bard needs to be one with inspire courage. Any summoner archetype except blood god disciple is acceptable.

Get superior summons and pull out mobs of monsters with your SLAs and inspire them.

Silver Crusade

Aioran wrote:
Classes that sit halfway between other classes like Magus or Bard or Inqusitor are doable with gestalt, you just have to pick another class that compliments the character's role with those classes. It can be a little difficult since they're already jack-of-all-trade classes.

Well, the thing that I like about Magus/Inquisitor/Bard ect. is that they have things that they can do as a swift action or some other ability that helps their action economy.

A Fighter/Wizard for example has a ton of stuff, but his action economy is terrible.

Silver Crusade

Atarlost wrote:

Penultimate Cheesemonger: Bard/Summoner

Ultimate Cheesemonger: Use the master summoner archetype.

The bard needs to be one with inspire courage. Any summoner archetype except blood god disciple is acceptable.

Get superior summons and pull out mobs of monsters with your SLAs and inspire them.

Hahaha, yeah we both thought of that and decided that Bard/Master Summoner would be too evil.

Silver Crusade

I was also thinking about maybe Paladin/Inquisitor.


Sorcerer/Oracle, Mystic Theurge on steroroids

DSP Psion/Fighter, a hybrid of fighter and wizard who can still get away with armor due to having no verbal or somatic components

DSP Psionic Warrior/Monk, a monk that doesn't suck. remember to take lion's pounce as one of your 2nd level powers

3.5 Swordsage/Pathfinder Rogue: Charisma is your dumpstat, but you have island of blades, Strength, Dexterity and Wisdom to dagger damage, no need of a flanking buddy, and the setting sun manuevers for dex based CMB at pseudo full bab with bonuses for facing larger foes.


If there are two of you Druid with Scout Rogue may work. It doesn't have good enough second strike ability for solo play, which I rejected it for, but it has all good saves, does lots of damage on a pounce, and has lots of skill points and class skills. And full divine casting, of course. You need someone to finish stuff off, but you get to bring adequate skill points to the table while still contributing.

Silver Crusade

What about:

3 levels Wizard/Cleric
1 level Mystic Theurge/Fighter

and from there go Eldritch Knight/Whatever and have the Eldritch Knight increase your Mystic Theurge casting.


Atarlost wrote:
Penultimate Cheesemonger: Bard/Summoner

Funnily enough I have one of these in my game.

I have to make sure to slap him around every now and then when he starts bragging about how his Eidolon can have 30 AC with buffs.

"Why yes he does indeed. Now what's yours like?" usually gets the point across.

Silver Crusade

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Rynjin wrote:
"Why yes he does indeed. Now what's yours like?"

My AC as a summoner is usually whatever the wall I'm cowering behind has.


Elamdri wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
"Why yes he does indeed. Now what's yours like?"
My AC as a summoner is usually whatever the wall I'm cowering behind has.

How do you manage that? Do you always have one of those guys with the bodyguard type Feats?

Silver Crusade

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Depends on the situation, I'll make due with whatever full cover I can get.

One time I was playing a game where we were fighting some dudes in a courtyard and I was in a 2nd story window overlooking the courtyard. Casted a spell, fell prone so I couldn't be targeted through the window. Next round, stood back up, casted another spell, fell prone again.

Was amusing to hear "Some ***hole is sniping us with a wand of magic missile from the window"


TL;DR, may have been ninja'd

Oracle (lore Mystery) paired with either Alchemist or any brand of Wizard.

The 7th-level-minimum Revelation "Mental Acuity" grants bonus points to Intelligence.

11th-level-minimum "Spontaneous Symbology" (god what an hideous name) gives you ALL the Symbol spells you can cast...

Alchemist, if you're not quite as attached to Wizardry as I tend to be, the Grand Discovery of "Philosopher's Stone" provides a mechanic to keep buying the expensive components for the various Symbol spells.

Much fun in either case, and your Oracle spells let you be the healer/remover-of-afflictions guy.


Elamdri wrote:

What about:

3 levels Wizard/Cleric
1 level Mystic Theurge/Fighter

and from there go Eldritch Knight/Whatever and have the Eldritch Knight increase your Mystic Theurge casting.

That's not how advancing spellcasting works. The MT dual advances a base progression, the EK advances one arcane progression. (You also can't have MT/EK because they both advance arcane casting before anyone suggests it)

Silver Crusade

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Why must you ruin my dreams with facts?


Because I am a gravedigger in the land of hopes and dreams and my name is Antimage. /serious

I'm sorry :<


Fighter(Two-Weapon Warrior)/Monk. I know it sounds stupid but think about it.

Ranger/Fighter. Chose a Fighter Archetype that synergizes with the Combat Style of the Ranger Side.

Fighter/Cleric(Crusader). Take a Domain such as Glory with a Deity such as Gorum or Iomedae and Holy Crap on a Cracker. You can get a lot of Feats via the Fighter and Cleric levels. Now it doesn't require to much beyond.

Wizard/Sorcerer(Wildblooded: Sage). Use One Class for your Combat Spells and the other for your Utility and Buff Spells. Or the Reverse depending on the number you expect to Cast over the Campaign.

Oracle/Cleric. Same as the Wiz/Sor. Though less Stat Synergy.

Silver Crusade

Salright, didn't think it would work anyway. But it's fun to dream.

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Fighter(Two-Weapon Warrior)/Monk. I know it sounds stupid but think about it.

Ranger/Fighter. Chose a Fighter Archetype that synergizes with the Combat Style of the Ranger Side.

Fighter/Cleric(Crusader). Take a Domain such as Glory with a Deity such as Gorum or Iomedae and Holy Crap on a Cracker. You can get a lot of Feats via the Fighter and Cleric levels. Now it doesn't require to much beyond.

Wizard/Sorcerer(Wildblooded: Sage). Use One Class for your Combat Spells and the other for your Utility and Buff Spells. Or the Reverse depending on the number you expect to Cast over the Campaign.

Oracle/Cleric. Same as the Wiz/Sor. Though less Stat Synergy.

Don't worry about stat synergy. Assume you have the stats to make your build work.


Rynjin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Penultimate Cheesemonger: Bard/Summoner

Funnily enough I have one of these in my game.

I have to make sure to slap him around every now and then when he starts bragging about how his Eidolon can have 30 AC with buffs.

"Why yes he does indeed. Now what's yours like?" usually gets the point across.

See, that's the opposite of what I'd do. I'd stack the eidolon with the skilled evolution and leave it in limbo. Bards get better the more friendly minis are on the table. Superior Summoning for 1d4+2 whatevers is 1d4+1 more minis getting boosted than an eidolon would get me.


He doesn't seem to think the summons are worth it, for some reason. I pointed out to him that a Standard action summon with 10x duration was pretty baws but he doesn't agree.


I have a Fighter/Cleric that would love having massive Stats. As it stands he has excellent Stats but only a few Channels and is relying on us Playtesting the Mythic Rules to get the most out of his powers.


Wizard/Mindchemist.

Full Int-synergy with the option of further boosting int beyond what any other class is capable of thanks to Cognatogen - giving you an extremely good DC for your SoS and SoD spells (at level 1 drinking the Cognatogen essentially gives you "Greater Spell Focus: Everything" and it only accelerates from there).

With bombs to take care of damage and simple battlefield control, you can reserve more spell slots for utility (as well as a few really big guns).

You have 3 good saves, an excellent skill list and a good number of skill points/level.

Extracts let you play around with the action economy to a greater extent than normally possible for a wizard (esp. using delayed consumption and combine extracts). Combine extracts + Quicken spell means that you can eventually get 3 buffs up in one round.

With Mindchemist powers and all knowledge skills as class skills you'll be a better loremaster than a bard ever could.


Fighter/Alchemist(Internal Alchemist). You can get large amounts of Feats and get some odd Synergy.

Wow Fighters get a lot of use in Gestalt...


In the solo game that I panned the druid/scout for I'm running a druid/lorewarden. Just started though so I can't really say how good it really is. Martial Versatility and Feral Combat Training abuse does maximizes your bang for your buck with the weapon focus chain and weapon penetration and grapple CMBs high enough to overcome bestiary CMD scaling on anything huge or smaller are possible.

And the way the skill points for the lore warden are worded the +2 for int based skills will stack rather than overlapping.


Paladin / Sound Striker Bard. Smite Evil and then make up to 10 (at 10th level) attacks per round. Maybe not the best combo, but it's quite interesting.


I like comboing fighter with feat-starved classes.

Paladin/Fighter, Barbarian/Fighter (doubly amazing since you can spend many more feats on Extra Rage Power), Rogue/Fighter, Ninja/Fighter, Ranger/Fighter (less spectacular).

A Master of Many Forms/Fighter can get a little ridiculous.

Cleric/Fighter adds some punch to a battlecleric build.

Monk/Cleric is similar while synergizing well on stats. At the very least, you can build a much sturdier cleric this way with more AC, better Reflex, Evasion, Stunning Fist (an extra control ability), and combat styles for defense.

Wizard/Sorcerer or Cleric may not synergize well on stats or gain action economy, but it gets a handful of bonus feats for the feat-starved casting classes, some additional abilities that can be rather strong on the other side of the divide, and doubles up on your options a bit. As mentioned by other posters, it allows you to be better prepared, more spell slots, more utility, more CC, and maintain some real threats as well.


Lore Warden Fighter/Kensai Magus. The ultimate smart warrior. You're a ronin, you're a mage, you're a duellist...

Trapper Ranger/Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist. You make a better frontliner than a normal ranger, you're a fantastic rogue-type, you have really strong stealth and animal themes, you make your ranger traps with alchemical items and you can easily call your extract components herbs and animal parts. Take the natural weapon combat style.

Sensei Monk/Beast Master Ranger. Have animals, take boon companion, buff them all, use wisdom to fight better.

I'm sure the orc Scarred Witchdoctor has great potential. I'd say add barbarian, but that's quite problematic since rage and spells don't mix. There's probably something though.


We have a Barbarian/Fighter in our game. He tears things up. And down. And all around.

Will saves make him their b#!%+ though. It's pretty funny how often he's been mindf$@$ed TBH.

@Mortuum: Can't the Urban Barbarian cast while raging?


No, I'm pretty sure it only gets mental skills.


Oh poo, apparently not. Still, you can buff up before you throw down, or debuff the enemy. Raging IS a Free action after all.

Though looking at it either a Half-Orc Urban Barbarian/Alchemist (Grenadier, probably. Or perhaps Mindchemist to raise Int for more damage) who uses his Rage for the Dex bonus and take steh favored class bonus or any race of Barbarian/Alchemist (Beastmorph/Vivisectionist) possibly into Master Chymist would make me pee myself if I ever saw one coming.

A (Orc?) Barbarian/Ragechemist would be pretty lulzy too, but not as effective. Though at higher levels (we'll say 12th) you'd be snagging +6 Str from rage and +8 from the Mutagen which is pretty scary. And the image of a Barbarian so full of rage he turns bright red and starts foaming at the mouth makes me giggle for some reason.


The Witch/Barbarian can also still use Hexes.

Grand Lodge

Kensai Magus/Urban Barbarian. Rage boost to dex and you can still cast spells. Weapon Finesse with Aldori Dueling Blade. Then roll around with mage armor and shield. You will be a nigh unhittable killing machine.


Rynjin wrote:

We have a Barbarian/Fighter in our game. He tears things up. And down. And all around.

Will saves make him their b@+%* though. It's pretty funny how often he's been mindf#@#ed TBH.

@Mortuum: Can't the Urban Barbarian cast while raging?

Why hasn't he grabbed the Superstition rage power and Iron Will? He has the feats to afford them.

As tempting as it is to super-specialize when gestalting, it really begs for shoring up weaknesses a bit, too.


Madclaw wrote:
Rage boost to dex and you can still cast spells.

Nope, Urban Barbarian allows you to use skills, but it says nothing about allowing spells. Sadly, this doesn't appear to work.

Azealas, the hexes do appear to work, so that's awesome. Doesn't require Urban, either, as far as I can tell. Very cool.


If given the option, I'd make a Barbarian/Witch (Scarred Witch Doctor). The witch archetype is only legal for orcs, but that could easily be houseruled in a game that allows gestalt, and makes CON the Witch's casting stat.


Scarred Rager Barbarian would seem the most appropriate option.

Orc really doesn't seem that bad a choice of race anyway. Failing that, half orcs can debatably qualify, PFS allows characters with the adopted trait to qualify and there's little reason to insist on restricting the ARG archetypes to race to begin with.


The old Gestalt options everyone banned due to being OP were Fighter/Monk (rip through enemies like the Tasmanian Devil toon) and Warlock/Rogue (eldritch blast and sneak attack synergy for ridiculous damage - not sure if this would even still work in Pathfinder assuming you could even get the Warlock approved since it's 3.5e)

One of the things I liked to do with Gestalt was use it to easily qualify for hard to get PrCs.


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Yeah. Depends on what you mean by 'best'

Best uber munchkin? Least killable? Most variety? Least 'logically possible'?

Bard Ninja! I sing the song of sneeky!


yeti1069 wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

We have a Barbarian/Fighter in our game. He tears things up. And down. And all around.

Will saves make him their b@+%* though. It's pretty funny how often he's been mindf#@#ed TBH.

@Mortuum: Can't the Urban Barbarian cast while raging?

Why hasn't he grabbed the Superstition rage power and Iron Will? He has the feats to afford them.

As tempting as it is to super-specialize when gestalting, it really begs for shoring up weaknesses a bit, too.

Superstition he hasn't snagged because he'd still like to get buffed by our Bard/Summoner. Iron Will he hasn't because iunno. He's not particularly good at building characters and he never lets me see his sheet until he's picked everything and is set on it.

Also, I also enjoy my GMPC, the Alchemist (Grenadier)/Cleric of Pharasma. Little stat synergy, sure, but it's really fun being the guy who tosses a bomb at everything in sight and if he misses (and deal splash damage to allies) he can just say 'Hey come over here, you look a bit scorched. *Channel*".

He's essentially a Healbot/Carpet Bomber Gestalt.


Paladin/Summoner(Synthesist) or Cleric(Evangelist)/Summoner(Master Summoner).

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