advanced firearms are the GM's fault. The default setting is beginning firearms.
General response to the "use existing means to pump AC" posts:
You realize the dragon's touch AC is something like 20-30 points behind its regular AC? Suppose it gets a +8 deflection bonus from bullet shield, it has a monk's robe, an Ioun stone, the Dodge feat... the gunslinger is still laughing at it.
Concealment works though, although it will still be sad if someone casts faerie fire or glitterdust on it.
Alot of dragons get spells. Have them take spells that bump their AC indirectly- such as Mirror Mage, Displacement, Blur, and the like.
Heck- mirror image can screw up a gunslinger's day, esp if everyone is having to ready actions to attack the dragon on his fly by. (extra points if the dragon stops and recasts it everytime they break through it).
Even more fun with Displacement added into the mix. (not sure if displacement and MI stack- but if they do, so much the better!)
Have an illusion precede the invisible dragon so everyone blows their readied actions only to have Tiny come in and lay waste, and such.
Dragons are big and bad and powerful in ranged, melee, and spell casting.
Use every spell and ability at their disposal and the GS won't really be a big problem.
-S
Unless, you know, the lair is stuffed to the rafters with traps that the dragon can unleash on intruders. Guns won't save you from collapsing ceilings.How does a dragon set up traps they are a little lacking in the hands department. I suppose they could keep kobolds on retainer but then that leaves the option of using your rogue to detect the trap and trigger it early.
probably the same way they use their simple weapon consistency.
However dragons are generally also powerful spellcasters in their own right, and with a decent defensive package of spells can wreak havok.Except they aren't necessarily. A CR 12 mature adult black dragon casts at sorcerer level 5th. It's not exactly a "powerful spellcaster" and doesn't have access to most of the buffs you mentioned. I suppose it could start spending several rounds casting off scrolls whenever it thinks there might be adventurers coming near its lair?
You are willing to mess with armor mechanics but not alter the dragons default spell package or give him several rings of spell storing?? A level 5 sorcerer on top of pretty powerful physical attacks, high movement speed and intelligence should be plenty against a gunslinger unless you use advanced firearms.
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On the other hand, there's some tragic possibilities in a world where dragons are going extinct due to the introduction of firearms. I mean, it totally changed real-world warfare, so why not in a fantasy campaign? Dragons that were previously invincible now getting shot down. Makes for an interesting campaign premise.
the mana wastes has advanced firearms as magic is not able to work there, as well they do technological advancements that seam like magic but are not magic.
Might wanna check again. Golarion as a whole only has 4 Firearms. The Mana Waste is just the easiest place to get them.
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Advance Firearms don't exist in Golarion.
Only the Pistol, Musket, Pepperbox, and Cannon are the ones from the Inner Sea World Guide. Now if you expand to all Early Firearms from Ultimate Combat it will be using the Emerging Guns Level.
I'd probably use a portion of the Natural AR as either DR against bullets or apply to the touch AC against firearms attacks. Maybe as a Feat or Draconic Age Category ability called "Bulletproof".
Personally, I generally ban Gunslingers and rarely allow firearms. I almost didn't buy Ultimate Combat because of Gunslingers & Ninjas, but ended up getting it to reference the feats & spells without needing to log onto d20pfsrd (and because I had all of the other "core books").
-TimD
I know its been mentioned before, but seriously, Snake Style.
Max ranks in Sense Motive (some dragons have it stock, but there is no reason you can't move some points around if they dont). The Dragon can only use it once per round (as an immediate action), but at something like +24 for the average adult dragon, its going to make at least one attack have a chance at missing.
You're players are not going to hate you for keeping the dragon battle "challenging" instead of "steam roller". Describe the dragon as performing wing overs to avoid the attack, or turning to present its thickest, hardest scales into the path of the shot at the last second.
Deflect Missile and a level of monk. Nothing like swatting a bullet out of the air to put a bit of fear back into a gunslinger.
I've seen a friends copy of ultimate combat. I didn't see anything about gunpowder going off in the area of red dragon breath or a fireball.
I think all dragons will get a crystal ball and gunslingers will attract scying attempts. Since the rich will be able to afford the best guns, there will be a lot of nobles hiring adventurers to go after the dragon that killed their brother, father, son, or cousin.
dragons can turn into a humoniod don`t forget.
Not all can do that actually. Off the top of my head, I don't think the Chromatics get the Change Shape ability. Of course, you can cast alter self or polymorph, but then they'd get quite the penalty to their Con and Str for changing sizes.
also don't forget. gunslingers are using a very flammable substance. If they dont have a magical powder horn whos to say that when a blue dragon or a red one breathes one them, their horn explodes as well. if they fail the reflex save they take full damage as normal but the their powder get burned up as well(extra damage if you want to be mean.)
The vital strike chain and grab... the gunslinger will run and hide from every dragon he ever sees for the rest of forever
Oh and snake style also sounds like a plan
How about simply being beyond 20ft from the Gunslinger?
Yeah... You ever see a gunslinger who DIDN'T put Distance on his weapon the first chance he got?
Me either.
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...
I didn't know I was clever enough to make someone need 11.5 months to reply to one of my posts.
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I didn't know I was clever enough to make someone need 11.5 months to reply to one of my posts.
Yeah, I was doing some research into this issue. I'm sorry, but a lot of the advice I see here is just... ineffective.
For example -- dragon wastes round casting "damp powder". Party cheers because dragon pissed away a round trying to negate the effects of a one PC attack and then wallops all over dragon. TWF gunslinger (who made his Will save) joins in the fun with a BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM 256 damage! <grins and blows pistol barrel>
Dragons were designed to be very intelligent battle tanks that could dish out a lot of damage while being hard to hurt. Ask yourself -- if dragons had been written up AFTER the creation of the gunslinger, wouldn't they have been written with some ability to deal with the gunslinger's multiple touch attacks per round? The same way they get SR to protect them from spellcaster touch attacks? I think so.
All this talk of "but the GM just needs to be CREATIVE..." reminds me of high school kids who sit there like lumps and then tell their parents they didn't pass because teacher didn't make it FUN enough for them. It's borderline whiny with a dash of smug smirk.
Dragons should not be reduced to paranoid things skulking about in fear of one character class that they absolutely MUST make sure any encounter with humans is set up to deal with if they want to have any hope of living. Some people are trying to sell that here, and I'm sorry, but I'm not buying.
Alternately, say a dragon wanted to research the following spell (because dragons are casters, right?)
Bulletproof Hide: While under the effects of this spell, the recipient's natural armor will protect it against firearm attacks regardless of the range they are made at.
Duration: 1 hour/level
What level would this spell be?
5th, maybe 4th with alteration focus.
They could make a tail band of bullet stopping.
5th, maybe 4th with alteration focus.
They could make a tail band of bullet stopping.
Ha ha, FIFTH?!?
http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/scintillating-scales--4129/
The spell linked above is SECOND level, and is MORE powerful.
OK, it's a 1 minute/level duration, but in every other respect it is MORE powerful. It protects against Scorching Rays, alchemy bombs, etc.
Looks to me like if we change the duration to 1 minute/level, 1st level seems about right.
And EVERY dragon would know it as soon as they could.
Think about it -- in a post-gunslinger world, dragons don't make it to 800 years of age without having protection from bullets. And since they are casters, the easiest solution to their problem is to come up with a spell to solve it.
I expected that, just not in that direction. You could just let dragons trade out their first spell like power for this.
How to Save Dragons from Gunslingers:
Step 1) Stay outside of the Gunslinger's first range increment. (Typically 20 feet).
Congratulations! You've saved the Dragon from the Gunslinger! Now go buy some pie.
If using Advanced Firearms,
Step 1) Stay outside of the Gunslinger's first five range increments. (Typically 100 feet).
Congratulations! You've saved the Dragon from the Gunslinger! Now go buy some pie.
This is not sarcastic. All you need to do is fly.
Dragons are quite capable of protecting themselves from gunslingers already. There's no need for the ridiculousness of a 17 touch AC. I mean, how would you even explain that?
I mean, they have spells for a reason. I can think of three off the top of my head that would completely screw the gunslinger. Wait, there's a fourth one. Oh, five....
And that doesn't even get into spell research, which dragons should be among the best at. Dragonkind has hundreds of spells that never made it into a sourcebook--because what sorcerer is more jealous of its secrets than a dragon?
All this talk of "but the GM just needs to be CREATIVE..." reminds me of high school kids who sit there like lumps and then tell their parents they didn't pass because teacher didn't make it FUN enough for them. It's borderline whiny with a dash of smug smirk.
Dragons should not be reduced to paranoid things skulking about in fear of one character class that they absolutely MUST make sure any encounter with humans is set up to deal with if they want to have any hope of living. Some people are trying to sell that here, and I'm sorry, but I'm not buying.
Projecting much? Other posters are providing real solutions, and you're the one whining that the dragon can't win because the players don't make it FAIR enough. If you play your dragon as a gunphobe, that's your business, but you do the creatures a disservice by shaming them so.
Think about it -- in a post-gunslinger world, dragons don't make it to 800 years of age without having protection from bullets. And since they are casters, the easiest solution to their problem is to come up with a spell to solve it.
Now you're talking!
Step 1: Do away with the weird treasure lairs. A dragon who loves his treasure is going to hide it someplace that is NOT associated with his person.
Step 2: Stop putting dragons in dungeons. This one should be obvious, but its not. More than once I've found myself facing a dragon in a place where he had no room to stretch his wings, and could not get away without landing to run out the exit.
Step 2.B: Make sure dragon lairs have flight exits.
Step 3: Give the dragon some treasure it actually uses. I tend to recommend around half its total treasure value. Would include contingency scrolls.
Step 4: RUN AWAY. Dragons are far too smart to just sit there and take the punishment a gunslinger is dishing out. If he doesn't have the right spells to shut the gunslinger down, he's going to get the hell out of dodge, then find a way to kill the punk without exposing himself to danger. (Possibly even going so far as to contract humanoid assassins [the job not the Class] to kill him in his sleep and bring his corpse for payment.)
So, don't use dragons in dungeons anymore, and when they meet the party they should run away. Gotcha. Fearsome opponents, those dragons.
All this talk of "but the GM just needs to be CREATIVE..." reminds me of high school kids who sit there like lumps and then tell their parents they didn't pass because teacher didn't make it FUN enough for them. It's borderline whiny with a dash of smug smirk.
Dragons should not be reduced to paranoid things skulking about in fear of one character class that they absolutely MUST make sure any encounter with humans is set up to deal with if they want to have any hope of living. Some people are trying to sell that here, and I'm sorry, but I'm not buying.
Projecting much? Other posters are providing real solutions, and you're the one whining that the dragon can't win because the players don't make it FAIR enough. If you play your dragon as a gunphobe, that's your business, but you do the creatures a disservice by shaming them so.
Think about it -- in a post-gunslinger world, dragons don't make it to 800 years of age without having protection from bullets. And since they are casters, the easiest solution to their problem is to come up with a spell to solve it.Now you're talking!
Projecting? I hear the voice of a gunslinger fanboi.
I see lame "solutions" that don't work, as I explained above. Wasting a precious round of combat on casting a spell that MIGHT use up one of the gunslinger's auto-hit attacks (so the rest if the party can get in a full round of wallop) is NOT a solution. Reducing every dragon encountered to strafing is NOT a solution, and making the fallacious assertion that staying 20' away from the gunslinger solves everything (when every gunslinger has Distance firearms) is NOT a solution. Having every dragon run away and hire assassins to deal with the party is NOT a solution.
Yes, there are "creative" encounters that can be tailor made to account for the presence of a gunslinger, but these get contrived after a while. Maybe, just maybe the problem is with something other than the "creativity" of the DM.
How to Save Dragons from Gunslingers:
Step 1) Stay outside of the Gunslinger's first range increment. (Typically 20 feet).
Congratulations! You've saved the Dragon from the Gunslinger! Now go buy some pie.If using Advanced Firearms,
Step 1) Stay outside of the Gunslinger's first five range increments. (Typically 100 feet).
Congratulations! You've saved the Dragon from the Gunslinger! Now go buy some pie.This is not sarcastic. All you need to do is fly.
Gunslinger to party Mage: "I'm gonna need a Fly spell to deal with this assclown."
Two rounds later: BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM DEAD DRAGON! WOOOT!
<gunslinger blows the smoke off his pistols>
Might want to rethink that "solution" there...
1. unless hasted the gunslinger isn't going to catch the dragon. Actually most of the time you still wouldn't catch it.
2, gunslingers have the fly skill? I know they have a good dex, but it still slows them down.
3. flyby attack vital strike or breathe weapon. The gunslinger isnt exactly known for his AC and Hit points.
4. its hard to shoot your way out of a grapple
5. Dimensional agility feats(not just for characters anymore)
6. The long list of spells that screw ranged attacks
There you go and that;s just off the top of my head. The only dragon the gunslinger has an easy time with is one that's stupidly played ie melee's with the group from the start instead of softening them up, isn't using the items in his treasure, doesn't summon or have minions(because they would)
1. So, again, the way to save dragons from the gunslinger is to have them run away and never engage in melee -- because, you know, dragons were never intended to engage in melee or anything. They're naturally skittish about that.
2. What? Even a pistol based gunslinger only has to get within 40' (remember, EVERY gunslinger puts Distance on his firearms unless he's a Gumby). The musketeer will have 80' to play with.
3. Actually, the gunslinger has great AC (due to high Dex) and close to the best hit points in the game (d10 hit dice and no reason not to put Con as his second highest stat). Have you even read the class?
4. A grappling monster is a dead monster unless the gunslinger is alone
5. Please explain how Dimensional Agility does a damn thing to help a dragon vs a gunslinger, other than have more options when running away
6. Yeah, let's see that long list of spells. Note that Wind Wall and Fickle Winds only offer 30% protection from the gunslinger's barrage -- it's some protection, sure, in the sense that it brings the gunslinger's astronomical damage down to Earth (maybe), but not really a "screwing over".
Here's the thing. In a post-gunslinger world, a GM cannot run a dragon encounter without painstakingly tailoring the entire encounter to account for the existence of the gunslinger. That's lame. It's really, really lame, even for the other players involved who get to watch the whole thing and have their noses rubbed in their own characters' superflousness while the gunslinger prances around and shouts, "Huzz-ZAH!"
It's cute maybe once, after that it's just obnoxious.
I had actually recently played a game with a level 13 gunslinger where I threw a dragon at them, First round, the dragon flew in and used the Crush ability to pin the gunslinger and party. When the gunslinger tried to fire while pinned, the dragon took the attack of opportunity, crit, and dropped him. But, I've found crush to be a fun way to disable parties in general.
Mirror Image is always nice to use against any party.
Dude, when you put an 'i' at the end of fanboy you really are not going to endure yourself to people trying to help you with your problem.
Dragons start with a fly speed of 100 ft by the time they are small their fly speed increases to 150 ft and at large it becomes 200 ft. With flyby attack this means they can start 100 ft from the position they are attacking from and move 100 ft back out from that position. You'll notice that 100 ft is outside the first range increment of a distance musket. IF the dragon has a line breath weapon they could literally start 100 ft up 100 ft off of the gunslingers position, fly over breath and be 100 ft to the other side of the gunslingers position in one round.
IF the gunslinger has someone cast fly on him he's going to have a flight speed of 60. That is less than a 1/3 of what the dragon has at large speed and less than 1/2 of what the dragon has at small speed. At no time is he going to be able to dependably close on the dragon regularly (if at all).
But even with a fly speed he's still looking at not being able to close on the dragon in such a way as to not get mauled on the way.
An example would be a blue dragon. At young age he's going to be large with 10d12 hit dice (he's popping about 95hp~105hp depending on toughness or not) a 6d8 (DC 18, 20 if the dragon takes ability focus) line breath weapon (80 ft). With 5 feats he can easily spring for flyby attack and simply breath and move out of a gunslinger's distance.
The gunslinger is going to get at most 1 attack each round.
Now maybe your level 7~9 gunslinger has 8,300gp to spend on a weapon and another 20,000gp to spend on a ring of evasion, and has another 4,000gp on his cloak (about the spending limit of an 8th level character) and doesn't care about anything else started as a human and has spent all his feats on ranged combat (rapid reload, deadly aim, weapon focus) and lightning reflexes and nothing else. But even then he's looking at one attack inside his first range increment at most getting him about a +13 attack bonus (8 base +6 dex -3 deadly aim +1 Magic +1 weapon focus) +1d12 +1(enhancement) +5~6(dex bonus) +6(deadly aim) for about 1d12+12~13 and a reflex save of +14.
Heck maybe the gunslinger has no strength and has a 20 dex and wisdom starting off and knows the dragon's trick and is set with fly and has two distance pistols in addition to the ring of evasion and cloak and then flies in range burns his grit for the day to take his extra attacks (because now he's multiclassing fighter for more feats) and takes 4 attacks at a -4 penalty each and the dragon doesn't luck out with the gunslinger getting no misfires on his pistols and...
Nope sorry can't do it anymore. Hit my limit of disbelief and the outside bounds of what the rules allow currently.
At the end of the day it looks like your problem isn't the gunslinger -- it's that parties of people eat single monsters... which isn't a bug, it's a feature.
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Easy fix.
Just make the dragon a gunslinger...with two giants revolvers...and a hat.
Nope sorry can't do it anymore. Hit my limit of disbelief and the outside bounds of what the rules allow currently.
Or maybe he has that ability where he fires off all of his attacks as one shot, used right when the dragon is strafing 80' up.
Boom.
Easy fix.
Just make the dragon a gunslinger...with two giants revolvers...and a hat.
LOL I like that one!
I had actually recently played a game with a level 13 gunslinger where I threw a dragon at them, First round, the dragon flew in and used the Crush ability to pin the gunslinger and party. When the gunslinger tried to fire while pinned, the dragon took the attack of opportunity, crit, and dropped him. But, I've found crush to be a fun way to disable parties in general.
Mirror Image is always nice to use against any party.
How many other characters were in this party?
In the game I run, there are six players, most of whom have cohorts.
A grappling monster is a dead monster. A dead monster who chose to waste his one round of existence on making a grapple.
I had actually recently played a game with a level 13 gunslinger where I threw a dragon at them, First round, the dragon flew in and used the Crush ability to pin the gunslinger and party. When the gunslinger tried to fire while pinned, the dragon took the attack of opportunity, crit, and dropped him. But, I've found crush to be a fun way to disable parties in general.
Mirror Image is always nice to use against any party.
How many other characters were in this party?
In the game I run, there are six players, most of whom have cohorts.
A grappling monster is a dead monster. A dead monster who chose to waste his one round of existence on making a grapple.
Total of four players. If I were running with 6 + cohorts, the combat would be much different, with more people/dragons.
Also, crush doesn't give the dragon the grappled condition. It gives everyone it crushes the pinned condition, but it remains ungrappled. Really useful for messing with the party a bit. And it does damage each round. Usually just crush for one round, then full attack whatever is left around him.
well i've always found it silly that a tiny little bullet can inflict 1/10th of a dragons health in one shot.
Hmm, someone needs to be educated on the horrors of cavitation waves and just how terribly whimsical a bullet can get when traveling through soft tissues.
well i've always found it silly that a tiny little bullet can inflict 1/10th of a dragons health in one shot.Hmm, someone needs to be educated on the horrors of cavitation waves and just how terribly whimsical a bullet can get when traveling through soft tissues.
That sounds like you want him to get shot... Lol
Anyway. That bullet is magic as hell, so saying the dragon has soft tissue is just wrong, haha. A regular person shooting it with a rifle will just bounce off of it.
well i've always found it silly that a tiny little bullet can inflict 1/10th of a dragons health in one shot.Hmm, someone needs to be educated on the horrors of cavitation waves and just how terribly whimsical a bullet can get when traveling through soft tissues.That sounds like you want him to get shot... Lol
Anyway. That bullet is magic as hell, so saying the dragon has soft tissue is just wrong, haha. A regular person shooting it with a rifle will just bounce off of it.
Haha, did not mean for it sound that sinister.
Regardless, Dragons have always hit above their weight-class in my opinion, much like golems do. Seems like 75% of the time an on CR dragon will wreck an unprepared party. I like seeing them with an Achilles Heel even if it is one they can bypass with a minor tweaking of their spells.
Nope sorry can't do it anymore. Hit my limit of disbelief and the outside bounds of what the rules allow currently.Or maybe he has that ability where he fires off all of his attacks as one shot, used right when the dragon is strafing 80' up.
Boom.
Which means if he fires the musket he adds 1d12 and if he does the pistols it's an extra d8 each hit.
That's it.
BTW, that's a full round action fyi so you can't ready to do it (also it burns a point of grit each time).
So instead of 1d12 you now have 2d12+12(ish), and you have to find someway to ready a full round action.
AND even then I don't see this as a bad thing.
The gunslinger in question has spent (literally) everything he has outside of skill points on being a one trick pony -- he can shoot things and happens to be good at it.
He can't drop a dragon in one round unless the dragon is incredibly stupid but hey, he does shoot well.
Okay, I'll throw in some suggestions. Maybe they were mentioned, but I'm not looking right now at all of them.
Try not to have Clustered Shots around. It makes the situation more difficult to deal with.
Try Antimagic field, and have the bullets contend with its DR
Winds of Vengeance, if at high levels. It automatically deflects regular and massive projectiles.
Protean Eldritch Bloodline feat, have a Solid Fog effect surrounding you.
Solid Fog or Acid Fog.
Displacement, Mirror Image, and the like.
Yeah sure, you can counter anyone of these, but you can counter anything in this game.