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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

No. :-(

I think then I am going to house rule it so they do.


I have a question about humans, if i pick HALF-ORC Human ancestry do i still get to pick one of the half-orc ancestry feats. I guess the question i am asking do humans get an extra ancestry feat at first level.


The reason i chose slayer(sniper archetype) is for the sniper abilities of

Accuracy:
(Ex): At 1st level, a sniper halves all range increment penalties when making ranged attacks with a bow, a crossbow, or a firearm. This ability replaces track.

Deadly Sniper:
(Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon's first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper's presence.

Also i can't drop my con to 8 i have to build my character as though it was a 10 as per the rules in t he advanced race guide.


Lady-J wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
don't dump str dump con also go trench fighter gets you gun training at level 3 go str 10, dex 18, con 7, int 12, wis 14, cha 14 if a 25 point buy or 10,18,7,10,12,14 for a 20 point buy trade some fly points for advanced ability score instead of flexible +4dex-2con+2int,wis and cha and probably could stick fast healing in as well

I have changed my character to a bolt ace slinger, and I am undead so i don't have a con, my hit points are based on charisma.

My stats are:
Str: 7
Dex: 16 + 2 Race
Con: --
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2 Race
Cha: 14

Feats up to level 8 are:
R1 Rapid Reload(Heavy XBow)
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
C4 Crossbow Mastery
L5 far shot
L7 Precise Shot
C7 Deadly Aim(Slayer for rogue talent)

Once i get 5 levels in bolt ace ii am going into slayer, sniper build, should i take feats with my slayer talents which can be taken as rogue talents and because of that ninja talents, or take actual talents.

stats are generated b4 applying anything so you can still dump con plus a martial with a penalty to str is going to be garbage

I have to buy my stats as though i have a 10 in constitution as per

** spoiler omitted **

dang still wouldn't dump str tho if anything dump int and keep str at 10 minimum

I am now my strength is now 10.

My new stats are as follows

My stats are:
Str: 10 Costing 0
Dex: 16 + 4 Race Costing 10
Con: -- - 2 Race Costing 0
Int: 10 + 2 Race Costing 0
Wis: 16 + 2 Race Costing 10
Cha: 14 + 2 Race Costing 5

With these racial traits:

  • Undead (16 RP)
  • Advanced (4 RP) +4 dexterity, -2 constitution, +2 intelligence, wisdom and charisma
  • Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP)
  • Skilled (4 RP)
  • Fly 50ft (Average) (8 RP)
  • Fast Healing 1(6 RP)

For a total of 42 RP

Feats up to level 8 are:
R1 Rapid Reload(Heavy XBow)
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
C4 Crossbow Mastery
L5 far shot
L7 Precise Shot
L8 Deadly Aim
Once i get 5 levels in bolt ace i am going into slayer, sniper build, should i take feats with my slayer talents which can be taken as rogue talents and because of that ninja talents, or take actual talents.

Should i take the rogue talent to get some extra feats using my slayer talent to get them?


Lady-J wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
don't dump str dump con also go trench fighter gets you gun training at level 3 go str 10, dex 18, con 7, int 12, wis 14, cha 14 if a 25 point buy or 10,18,7,10,12,14 for a 20 point buy trade some fly points for advanced ability score instead of flexible +4dex-2con+2int,wis and cha and probably could stick fast healing in as well

I have changed my character to a bolt ace slinger, and I am undead so i don't have a con, my hit points are based on charisma.

My stats are:
Str: 7
Dex: 16 + 2 Race
Con: --
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2 Race
Cha: 14

Feats up to level 8 are:
R1 Rapid Reload(Heavy XBow)
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
C4 Crossbow Mastery
L5 far shot
L7 Precise Shot
L8 Deadly Aim

Once i get 5 levels in bolt ace ii am going into slayer, sniper build, should i take feats with my slayer talents which can be taken as rogue talents and because of that ninja talents, or take actual talents.

stats are generated b4 applying anything so you can still dump con plus a martial with a penalty to str is going to be garbage

I have to buy my stats as though i have a 10 in constitution as per

Purchase:
When using the purchase method for ability scores, assume members of races without Constitution have a Constitution score of 10 and buy the rest of the abilities normally using the points allocated for the campaign’s power level.

So my new stats will be as follows

My stats are:
Str: 10 Costing 0
Dex: 16 + 4 Race Costing 10
Con: -- - 2 Race Costing 0
Int: 10 + 2 Race Costing 0
Wis: 16 + 2 Race Costing 10
Cha: 14 + 2 Race Costing 5


    This is my race for the game i will be playing in
  • Undead (16 RP)
  • Advanced (4 RP) +4 dexterity, -2 constitution, +2 intelligence, wisdom and charisma
  • Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP)
  • Skilled (4 RP)
  • Fly 50ft (Average) (8 RP)
  • Fast Healing 1(6 RP)

For a total of 42 RP


wintersrage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
don't dump str dump con also go trench fighter gets you gun training at level 3 go str 10, dex 18, con 7, int 12, wis 14, cha 14 if a 25 point buy or 10,18,7,10,12,14 for a 20 point buy trade some fly points for advanced ability score instead of flexible +4dex-2con+2int,wis and cha and probably could stick fast healing in as well

I have changed my character to a bolt ace slinger, and I am undead so i don't have a con, my hit points are based on charisma.

This comes to:

  • Undead (16 RP)
  • Advanced (4 RP)
  • Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP)
  • Skilled (4 RP)
  • Fly 40ft (Average) (8 RP),
  • Fast Healing 1(6 RP)

For a total of 42 RP.

My stats are:
Str: 7 + 2
Dex: 16 + 4 Race
Con: -- - 2 Race
Int: 12 + 2 Race
Wis: 16 + 2 Race
Cha: 14 + 2 Race

Feats up to level 8 are:
R1 Rapid Reload(Heavy XBow)
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
C4 Crossbow Mastery
L5 far shot
L7 Precise Shot
L8 Deadly Aim

Once i get 5 levels in bolt ace ii am going into slayer, sniper build, should i take feats with my slayer talents which can be taken as rogue talents and because of that ninja talents, or take actual talents.


Lady-J wrote:
don't dump str dump con also go trench fighter gets you gun training at level 3 go str 10, dex 18, con 7, int 12, wis 14, cha 14 if a 25 point buy or 10,18,7,10,12,14 for a 20 point buy trade some fly points for advanced ability score instead of flexible +4dex-2con+2int,wis and cha and probably could stick fast healing in as well

I have changed my character to a bolt ace slinger, and I am undead so i don't have a con, my hit points are based on charisma.

My stats are:
Str: 7
Dex: 16 + 2 Race
Con: --
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2 Race
Cha: 14

Feats up to level 8 are:
R1 Rapid Reload(Heavy XBow)
L1 Point-Blank Shot
L3 Rapid Shot
C4 Crossbow Mastery
L5 far shot
L7 Precise Shot
L8 Deadly Aim

Once i get 5 levels in bolt ace ii am going into slayer, sniper build, should i take feats with my slayer talents which can be taken as rogue talents and because of that ninja talents, or take actual talents.


avr wrote:

A reloading hands enchantment sounds expensive. If your GM is OK with using the permanency spell that's ~6 000 gp. If it's a magic item 2*3*2000 gp = 12 000 gp. Maybe at mid-levels but until then you'll want alchemical cartridges.

Edit: As regards swasbuckler, I don't think that works. A musket isn't a light or one handed piercing melee weapon - in two different ways!

I think I will go slayer then.


avr wrote:

Mysterious stranger is a good archetype at first but bad by fifth level. Also if you're raised from the dead then charisma will stop being your hit point stat. Stick with the base gunslinger, or an archetype which doesn't change the grit stat - maverick, throne warden or musket master would work for you.

For feats, if you go with musket master (I probably would, unless I had a concept which wanted something else) try
1: Point Blank Shot
Class 1: Rapid Reload (muskets)
Race: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
Class 4: Weapon Focus (Musket)
5: Deadly Aim

After this you probably want to multiclass as gunslinger offers little after 5th level. Warpriest, Eldritch Archer Magus, Slayer, Ranger... any of these and more have something to offer with the second set of stats.

Should I make alchemical carriages so I can get my reload time down to a free action, or just get my weapon enchanted with permanent reloading hands spell.

Also what do you think of swashbuckler to get my level added as precision damage.


I am using a 23 point build, i don't need con as I am undead. I am a custom build race, undead racial, extra feat, skilled, flexible stats.

This comes to:

  • Undead (16 RP)
  • Flexible (2 RP)
  • Flexible Bonus Feat (4 RP)
  • Skilled (4 RP)
  • Fly 70ft (Perfect) (14RP)

For a total of 40 RP.

I am thinking a charisma build as i need the charisma for hit points so I was thinking mysterious stranger.

My stats i was thing of going with for mysterious stranger
Str: 7
Dex: 16 + 2
Con: --
Int: 12
Wis: 14
Cha: 16 + 2

For a generic gunslinger
Str: 7
Dex: 16 + 2
Con: --
Int: 12
Wis: 16 + 2
Cha: 12

I am not sure what feats and when to take them, and if i should go mysterious stranger or not, to optimize my character. My gm is the one who recommended flight to me for my character, and there is a good chance i will be raised when the chance arises, my character was killed and raised by a necromancer but i wasn't the mindless undead he wanted i was a sentient undead, who ran off on him.

This game will be played in a Sky's of Arcadia type world, floating islands, traversed by flying creatures and flying machines, best guns are flint lock types of guns no advances or technology guns.

Any help would be appreciated.


376: The planted bean grows a giant bean stock to a floating CG storm giants cloud castle, he offers the planter 6 items off of the least magic item list rolled randomly, 3 off of the moderate list rolled randomly,or 1 of the greater magic item list, if the planter is a paladin he gets a holy avenger or sun Blade, a druid gets an iron wood version of any weapon or armor rolled. There is a 1 percent chance of the giant offering the planter an artifact, picked by the GM but the item should be beneficial and sentient.


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I have made a change your his hand psionic points they get. 93 seamed t9 many for a half spell caster so I changed it to 48 at 20th keel.


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I never understood why clerics where not charisma based casters in the first. You eould think needing to convince your God to give you spells should require some panache and personality, otherwise tye good will be like he can't convince me how is he hoping 5o convince other people to convert.


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for this new page i will place another link for the Ascetic Psychic


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Ciaran Barnes wrote:
Looks better. There is a weird space in the middle of unarmed strike.

Fixed


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

What you have now:

Sixth Sense (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, an ascetic psychic adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and CMD in addition to his dexterity.

This bonus to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Also the Ascetic psychic needs to maintain psionic focus for this bonus to be applied.

***

Your document have a lot of blank lines in between sentences, as though they are new paragraphs. In many cases I find it distracting. In the case of Sixth Sense, I see no reason for the blank line. The original monk feature has a blank line, but then again the monk feature has two more sentences.

I have removed all the blank lines in the same ability, does it read better now.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

What you have now:

Sixth Sense (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, an ascetic psychic adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and CMD in addition to his dexterity.

This bonus to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load. Also the Ascetic psychic needs to maintain psionic focus for this bonus to be applied.

***

Your document have a lot of blank lines in between sentences, as though they are new paragraphs. In many cases I find it distracting. In the case of Sixth Sense, I see no reason for the blank line. The original monk feature has a blank line, but then again the monk feature has two more sentences.

Should I just remove all the blank lines, I think if I did it would make it look jumbled. I will remove the blank lines and see what it looks like.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
So 6th sense applies to touch attacks and when he is flanked? That needs to be defined better. Does it apply to any other attacks? What if he is immobilized or helpless? Is armor a factor?

Sorry for wording it that way, i was tired when i wrote it, but it should make more sense now.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
So 6th sense applies to touch attacks and when he is flanked? That needs to be defined better. Does it apply to any other attacks? What if he is immobilized or helpless? Is armor a factor?

How does Sixth sense look now.


Lady-J wrote:
it should remain untyped so it wont stack with wis to ac from a normal monk

I changed it back to untyped.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
What is the bonus type for sixth sense?

I just made it an insight bonus to ac as insight makes sense for sixth sense.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:
What is the bonus type for sixth sense?

Well I went off of the monk wisdom bonus to ac and it is untyped, I could make it luck bonus or maybe dodge bonus, but just based off of monk it is untyped.


Wrath wrote:

I guess the best thing to remember is that everyone at the table is there to have fun.

The GM and the players all need to decide before hand what they want out of the game.

Too often I've seen a session devolve into "us vs him" mentality, either from the players action or the GM actions.

Pathfinder as a system is particularly wired to trigger this sort of game play unfortunately. The very nature of its modularity leads to players trying to "build" the best combination of I can't be beat no matter what.

This then leads to one of two situations
1) the game becomes a roflstomp of all the enemies with no challenge.
2) the GM ups the ante to provide challenge. This one turns into rocket tag.

A number of the examples I see here are rocket tag gaming.

The GM shouldn't be out to kill characters. They need to provide a challenge that keeps players happy but also provides enjoyment for the,selves.

In other words, this is not a competitive game, it's a co operative game between all the people at the table.

I dropped from the rules intensive Pathfinder to the rules lite 5 ed.
I run Paizo adventure paths and convert over. By removing all the "rules for every situation" my players stopped worrying about if it could or couldn't do that thing that just happened, and began to plan for how to deal with it instead.

All of us have been much happier gamers ever since.

I agree, everybody needs to be upfront with each other about what they want out of the game, be it the gm or the players, and agree that the choices they made will be under scrunity and if changes need to happen for balancing, then they will be made with everybody being being effected will be notified of the changes, so they won't be left in the dark till it it to late.


Do you guys think the class is balanced enough, or does it require more balancing.

By the way it is the psionic rules from psionic unleashed book from dreamscared press.


Rednal wrote:

...I feel like now would be a good time to quote this.

Quote:

The Most Important Rule

The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of "house rules" that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.

I completely agree with that, but some GM's will say if you don't like how i GM there is the door, and that to me is a s%+@y GM. especially if they don't listen to their players.

I know a gm who gave a vampire the aquatic subtype, which makes it immune to the weakness to water, had its heart removed using a magic item that the heart is placed into, to allow the vampire to function without its heart as long as the heart is in the magic item, placed into a portable hole, making it immune to being staked, also had a ring that absorbed sunlight that touched the creature wearing it, making it immune to sunlight weakness.

After he sprung this vampire on us said after we said it is unfair, there is no way for us to kill it, even if we found its coffin, that he is the GM and he can do what ever he wants and if you don't like it you don't have to site at his table.

When we pointed out that the vampire was unkillable he said you don't need to point out the rules to him and if you do he will take it as you being a rules lawyer and will send a monster in game after you for doing it, each time you do it.


Derek Dalton wrote:

I know the feat and weapon neither apply. Rocket launchers don't use charges read the description. So your point is invalid. However GMs should inform players when they are considering or have changed rules, I agree. That is actually where house rules come in. My old group had a few house rules that disregarded book rules for a variety of reasons. Most times it was to have fun. We changed a couple because of game balance for everyone. In Rifts you could empty half a clip into an enemy doing times five damage. Average pistol did 3d6. Now PCs usually emptied clips into the bad guys a lot. If I or another GM did that to PCs we'd have a lot of TPKs. So we made a ruling pistols can only burst three rounds for slightly less damage. It made fights last longer on both sides. What is interesting is Pallidium when they revamped their combat rules made that an official rule.

A newly created rocket launcher contains its entire load of rockets and energy charges.

But lets change my example to a VORTEX GUN then, he changes it to an burst from your square including your square.

My point is and i know you pointed it out, is that GM's who change things need o give some heads up to players especially if the changes effect their character, these GM need to be upfront about changes that effect a player.

These types of changes that ends up making one of the things the character was going to use to try and survive an encounter, that he was going to initiate, because the city's political power have been taken over by Doppelganger and those that aren't doppelganger's are working with them.

I was going to attack the enemy hopefully the person i was attacking was a doppelganger as i had a weapon that would case someone no in their true form to revert their shape if they failed their save of a dc 15 i think it was.

But i missed and was not able to stealth as he said the fire will not let you stealth because it interferes with shadow blend, when even in pathfinder a fire at night time would not stop shadow blend as a bonfire does not create bright light, of in 3.5 the effects of daylight spell, but with out prior notice, i made a foolish decision that was not foolish with my abilities as i knew them to be, but was foolish with the changes he made.


PK the Dragon wrote:
It seems like it'd be really good at 1st level if you pick the right animal companion, peak at level 4-7 or so, and from there get steadily worse.

At least animal companions are not as bad as they are in 5th edition.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Winter I have read rules and articles from a variety of games regarding being the GM. Pallidium Books actually did several articles regarding being a GM. Most of the articles were meant for their Rifts game system. In Rifts there is a huge difference in power between races and classes. They brought up over and over again how one character always dominated the game because he was the walking tank of the group in power armor. The articles all said the same thing. If you the GM don't like don't allow it. It went on to say that a GM does have certain responsibilities to the players but if he is not having fun he should change things until everyone is having fun. So yes a GM should do what he can to make the campaign fun but not at the expense of his happiness or sanity.

I've quit GMing because of problem players doing everything in their power to wreck a campaign. They were doing it because it was fun. The campaign didn't matter nothing matter except making my life miserable. A What is worse is they didn't think they were doing anything wrong and kept asking me to be GM so they could do it again.

I agree the GM has some leeway in regards to the rules, but the rules are rules for a reason, and when they are being change with no notice to the players, and they do something with the prier knowledge of a racial ability they have, but now that racial ability doesn't work, or a feat they have don't work the way it was written, or a spell not doing what you though the spell was supposed to do based on its description, then that is just the GM being a jerk, by not notifying his players of changes.

A GM if he is going to change rules, needs to notify his players so they can make player and character decisions based on those changes.

What my GM did would be like if you went to Numeria or what ever it is called, and bough a ROCKET LAUNCHER, and the GM made a change to it so it only had 1 range increment of 30ft, max range of 30ft, and no save, so every-time you fired it you are inside the range, just because he though it was to powerful, in combination with your class archtype ability of

Covet Charge:
Covet Charge (Ex): At 1st level, a techslinger can spend 1 grit point to use 1 charge fewer than normal when firing a technological weapon (minimum 0), as long as the weapon has enough charges remaining to be fired at least once. This deed replaces deadeye.


Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
If i had realized fetchling had something close to what i wanted to play i would have took them, but that doesn't change my concept had dvati as a big part of the RP side of my character, as people find it weird when 2 people who look identical are finishing each others sentences, are great singers, and work very well together, better then they have seen any other 2 siblings have in the past.
There's no right/wrong with aesthetics and creativity, of course. Nonetheless, this really sounds like two characters to me. I think if it were me, I'd have tried to play this with another PC rather than gone hunting for a race-which-is-one-person-in-two-bodies.

dvati are 2 bodies 1 soul and 1 character.

** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah, that's what I meant. I was referring to this:

"a big part of the RP side of my character, as people find it weird when 2 people who look identical are finishing each others sentences, are great singers, and work very well together, better then they have seen any other 2 siblings have in the past."

If I had that image, I'd be thinking of two very close people, not one soul split between two bodies. (My tastes are pretty vanilla though - I generally play fighters and pretty much always play humans).

It was just a passing comment, not meant as a judgement.

Well i could have just asked my gm to allow me to play 2 human characters with limited telepathy, they can only talk to each other, via their limited telepathy.

But i like playing weird races, like dvati, or vanara, or strix, or Kasatha, i like weird races for the rp element they impart to the game.


Dox of the ParaDox twins wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
wintersrage wrote:

It is just that the GM was allowing the other players to do things, like casting 2 spells around without having quicken meta-magic, and these were not immediate action spells, making to attacks after a charge because they have 2 weapons and have two-weapon fighting, allowing them to take a monster race with player stats but the race still have racial Hit dice, a 2 LA race with 6 racial hit dice, and we where level 10 and they still have 8 class levels, saying the person was only level 10.

a character with a level adjustment of 2 and 8 class levels is a 10th level character
I am away of that but he had 6 racial hit dice as well.
Then you are probably also aware that most characters that take level adjustment and racial hot dice end up weaker then others because of the flawed system, that unfortunately does not apply to templates which only sometimes have a level adjustments

Yes i am aware of that. That is why i try and stay away from them, unless my concept requires a level adjustment race or template, if i can get away with my character concept with out a level adjustment or template, i will do that.


Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
If i had realized fetchling had something close to what i wanted to play i would have took them, but that doesn't change my concept had dvati as a big part of the RP side of my character, as people find it weird when 2 people who look identical are finishing each others sentences, are great singers, and work very well together, better then they have seen any other 2 siblings have in the past.
There's no right/wrong with aesthetics and creativity, of course. Nonetheless, this really sounds like two characters to me. I think if it were me, I'd have tried to play this with another PC rather than gone hunting for a race-which-is-one-person-in-two-bodies.

dvati are 2 bodies 1 soul and 1 character.

Dvati:
Twins: A "single" dvati is a pair of creatures that
shares a soul. A dvati twin can no more exist
without his soul partner than a human can live
without a heart. The unique, spiritual link between
a dvati pair has several important implications.
A dvati character is actually two separate dvati
twins who share a soul. These two creatures move
and act separately but have a number of restrictions
based on their connection.
The dvati twins gain levels and progress in
the same manner as a single creature of another
race. The twins share a class and both have
the same level. The twins do not progress at a
different rate, nor do they split XP between them.
Rather, each has an identical XP total. When dividing
XP among characters, a dvati counts as one PC.
For example: A 1st-level dvati fighter consists
of a pair of twins, each with the same set of fighter
abilities. You select feats, skills, and other abilities for
both twins. Do not choose them separately. If one
twin has Power Attack, both twins gain access to it.
In essence, you build one character who occupies two
bodies, regardless of the class chosen.
When a dvati casts a spell, both members
of the pair must focus and concentrate on it.
Both twins must simultaneously take the actions
required to cast a spell, although only one must
supply material components. One twin cannot cast
a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions
while he casts. Any other sort of action, including
a free one, makes it impossible for the casting twin
to focus and use his spell. If the dvati tries to use a
spell anyway, his casting attempt is ruined and the
spell is lost.
The dvati twins divide their hit points between
them. Each twin in the pair gains half the hit points
from his Hit Die roll, although both gain the full
benefits of his Constitution modifier. Do not roll
Hit Dice separately for each dvati twin. For example,
a 1st-level dvati fighter with a 13 Constitution gains
6 hit points for each twin ([10 hp / 2] +1 = 6). If an
area of effect spell catches both twins, they save
separately and take damage as normal.
A pair of dvati twins shares all class abilities
and spells slots between them. For example, a 3rdlevel
dvati bard can use bardic music three times per
day in total, not three times for each twin. Personal
spells (those with a target of "you") affect both twins
as long as they are on the same plane. Otherwise,
they affect only the caster. Other spells function as
normal. For example, a touch spell normally affects
only the specific twin touched. The spell conductor
ability (detailed below) allows the dvati to share
some spells.
A mind-affecting ability or spell that affects
one twin affects both of them. If a single such ability
targets both twins at the same time, they make only
one save between them. Dvati twins share one mind.
The dvati twins have an innate, powerful psychic
connection. They can communicate via telepathy
at an unlimited range and across the planes. A
twin cannot perceive what his other sees, hears, or
otherwise perceives. As a full-round action, a dvati
twin can determine his twin's current hit points and
mental state. If one twin is on the same plane as
the other, the twin learns the relative direction and
distance to his partner.
If one dvati twin dies, the other slowly sickens
and perishes. Each day that passes after a dvati
twin dies, the surviving twin takes ld4 points of
Constitution and Wisdom damage and takes a
cumulative -1 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks,
and saving throws. The ability damage and penalties
remain (and cannot be healed or removed) until the
living twin dies or his soulmate returns to life (at
which time they immediately disappear). Most dvati
prefer to commit ritual suicide if one twin dies
without hope of return, as the pain of losing the
close bond drives a dvati to the brink of madness.
In most cases, an effect that applies to one twin
fails to spill over to the other. If a medusa turns one
twin to stone, the other remains healthy. Negative
levels are an exception to this rule. If one dvati twin
suffers a negative level, both of them incur its effects.
The dvati makes one save to remove the negative
level. Level loss caused by returning to life via a raise
dead or similar spell affects both dvati twins.


Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
I try and build my characters on their RP elements and the shadow creature dvati was my RP choice. I though a shadow creature dvati would make for a good RP character, i wasn't really thinking of it from a power point of view.

Kind of. I mean, I take your point that the motivation was the background/story of the character. However, you were thinking of the power level a bit (since you warned the DM it was overpowered).

From my perspective, if I thought something was overpowered I wouldn't take it - even if the DM said it was okay. More broadly, I think it's worth sticking to more mainstream options until you know the style of the group and specifically the DM.

Well yes as i wanted to make sure that the GM knew how powerful my character was going to be even if the choices were for their rp elements.


Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I'm curious, wintersrage. Is your opinion on "dealing with DMs" any different now than when you made the OP?

I have no problem with vent threads, but dressing them up as requests for advice if you're really just looking for affirmation seems counter productive, to me.

Yes I will not be asking any GM's in the future of the power level of the group and the campaign, if the game is going to be high powered i will make a high powered character otherwise i will build a less powerful character.
I presume you meant to say you WILL be asking the power level?
yes i miss typed, sorry for that.
No problem, of course. I just wanted to be sure (you and I play very differently, so I figured it was worth checking!) :p

When i get a concept in mind i really want to play that character.

If i had realized fetchling had something close to what i wanted to play i would have took them, but that doesn't change my concept had dvati as a big part of the RP side of my character, as people find it weird when 2 people who look identical are finishing each others sentences, are great singers, and work very well together, better then they have seen any other 2 siblings have in the past.


Steve Geddes wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:

I'm curious, wintersrage. Is your opinion on "dealing with DMs" any different now than when you made the OP?

I have no problem with vent threads, but dressing them up as requests for advice if you're really just looking for affirmation seems counter productive, to me.

Yes I will not be asking any GM's in the future of the power level of the group and the campaign, if the game is going to be high powered i will make a high powered character otherwise i will build a less powerful character.
I presume you meant to say you WILL be asking the power level?

yes i miss typed, sorry for that.


Steve Geddes wrote:

I'm curious, wintersrage. Is your opinion on "dealing with DMs" any different now than when you made the OP?

I have no problem with vent threads, but dressing them up as requests for advice if you're really just looking for affirmation seems counter productive, to me.

Yes I will not be asking any GM's in the future of the power level of the group and the campaign, if the game is going to be high powered i will make a high powered character otherwise i will build a less powerful character.

But i have to say this, if you pick 1 thing for your character to focus on as a character concept, you end up making an over powered character.

Prime example is the whip/trip build fighter with 3 levels of sorcerer so you have long limbs. Some people would consider this character build broken, especially if you have a high dex and combat reflexes.

I try and build my characters on their RP elements and the shadow creature dvati was my RP choice. I though a shadow creature dvati would make for a good RP character, i wasn't really thinking of it from a power point of view.


Lady-J wrote:
wintersrage wrote:

It is just that the GM was allowing the other players to do things, like casting 2 spells around without having quicken meta-magic, and these were not immediate action spells, making to attacks after a charge because they have 2 weapons and have two-weapon fighting, allowing them to take a monster race with player stats but the race still have racial Hit dice, a 2 LA race with 6 racial hit dice, and we where level 10 and they still have 8 class levels, saying the person was only level 10.

a character with a level adjustment of 2 and 8 class levels is a 10th level character

I am away of that but he had 6 racial hit dice as well.


It is just that the GM was allowing the other players to do things, like casting 2 spells around without having quicken meta-magic, and these were not immediate action spells, making to attacks after a charge because they have 2 weapons and have two-weapon fighting, allowing them to take a monster race with player stats but the race still have racial Hit dice, a 2 LA race with 6 racial hit dice, and we where level 10 and they still have 8 class levels, saying the person was only level 10.

I lost count of how many times i was being punished for my character, when he was allowing other players to do what they wanted.

I think his dislike of me wasn't my character, it was the fact that I asked him to be more consistent with the rules and to try if he is going to change the rules to give us a heads up.

I find some people dislike people asking for clarification on stuff, because his changing of the rules on the fly or at least it looked like it was on the fly to us, is annoying and aggravating, especially if you created your character to take into account of certain rules and then they change them, with out telling you.


OilHorse wrote:

I think that by the time you were asking for permission to re-do the PC the DM had enough of you, and then the easiest way to deal with it was to just kill the PC off. Then he doesn't have to allow you back into the group.

Seems more like a personality issue than just a PC/mechanics issue. I am fairly lenient as a DM, but from what I have seen of you I would boot you also.

Remember the the DM gets to determine the rules, and that makes it harder for him to disregard the rules.

Many a GM would disagree with you that the GM has final say on the rules, even the game designer of some of the books, Chris Perkins, Matthew Mercer to name a few say that it is a GM's job to tell a story and to fix any issue that might arise with mistakes on both the GM's side and the players side with rules interpretations, they have said that if a GM is playing the game wrong and making it not fun for the players or it seams that the GM is interpreting a rule wrong it is the players job to point it out.

I would like to know when and where the GM is the final say on the rules and that is that, started, i would have slapped that GM and the group for even saying it, what if you have a GM who does what he wants with the rules, changing them from session to session, and you happen to live in a small town and he the only person willing to GM.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Sigh, I was really trying to stay out of this thread.

wintersrage wrote:
The way this is worded a titan mauler could take colossal maul of the titans from the titan they just knocked down and attempt to use it. it is worded so that it only works for two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. So pathfinder is not immune to brokenness.
Anyways, sounds like the situation is resolved on your end. Glad you came to the conclusion that the game wasn't right for you.

Other then the GM, no one at the table had an issue with my character, or me, but as long as he is GM I will not be playing, i will instead play magic the gathering commander, until i find another play group to play with.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Sigh, I was really trying to stay out of this thread.

wintersrage wrote:
The way this is worded a titan mauler could take colossal maul of the titans from the titan they just knocked down and attempt to use it. it is worded so that it only works for two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. So pathfinder is not immune to brokenness.
Titan Mauler wrote:

At 3rd level, a titan mauler becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted from her titanic foes.

She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. However, the attack roll penalty for using weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd (to a minimum of 0).

This ability replaces trap sense.

So as you can read in bold, you can only wield a 2 handed weapon one size category bigger than you with Titan Mauler.

That is the way it is worded now, but when the book came out that was not in there. So people where looking as it as they had powerful build for any size weapons they wanted to wield, trust me there where threads all over the place about it.


Chris Mortika wrote:
Quote:
Can I ask you a question, would you ever allow the 3.5 vows in to your campaign,

If you'd allow me, I can answer that, for my own campaign, wintersrage.

No. When I was running 3.5 campaigns, I didn't allow the vows, and I certainly wouldn't allow them in a Pathfinder game.

"Why not?"

Because they provide much more than the character trades away, and the designers disguise this as a character fluff thing. And because the vows of Non-violence and Peace wreck the rest of the party.

--

The very fact you asked tells me a lot about what kinds of characters you want to play, and what kind of campaign you want: the kind where the players and GM take off the kid gloves and ruthlessly compete for power. So, don't complain when your GM runs that kind of encounter.

You realize vow of poverty give you at most 75% the amount of bonuses of a character gets at 10th+ level. So early on he is more powerful, but later on he is less powerful, that is the way most of the power feats, templates and the like work, early on in game they are powerful but as you level up they are not a powerful.

I do agree that 3.5 had some broken combos, that they errated out once they where found, but like most game systems, and games in general, they can't take into account of everything, until someone does it and points it out, and there are some broken things in pathfinder.one that comes to mind, that they errated almost as soon as the book came out was the Titan Mauler (Archetype), when it first came out it was just worded

Massive Weapons.:
Massive Weapons (Ex): At 3rd level, a titan mauler
becomes skilled in the use of massive weapons looted
from her titanic foes. The attack roll penalty for using
weapons too large for her size is reduced by 1, and this
reduction increases by 1 for every three levels beyond 3rd
(to a minimum of 0). This ability replaces trap sense.
The way this is worded a titan mauler could take colossal maul of the titans from the titan they just knocked down and attempt to use it. it is worded so that it only works for two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. So pathfinder is not immune to brokenness.

Im sure if someone combed over all the feats, archetypes, races and magic items they could come up with a fairly broken combo.

This is not a justification for broken builds, I am just pointing out that if you look hard enough to any game systems you can find broken builds, that goes for pathfinder.

Prime example right out of the gate, is the caviler, take a small caviler, can get *6 if you add your multipliers together, or if they follow a *3 + a *3 equals *5 damage., that is at first level. lets say you take the aasimar variant for strength and charisma, you could if you roll good on your dice get a +5 strength bonus so that +7 damage with a lance, if you have power attack that is an additional +3 for 1d8+10 for a possible 90 damage an a critical charge with a lance, at first level.

Now that is broken.


Derek Dalton wrote:

Even Mythic I'd be especially reluctant to allow permanent invisibility. Again at first level you are at about 20 plus for stealth. No monster of your CR is ever going to find you. Not even a CR+4 which is the absolute highest suggested for parties to take on. Dragons which start at CR 6 might find you rolling a natural 20. Rules in Pathfinder doesn't mean a natural 20 is a success in using a skill. So a white dragon with a natural twenty with bonuses out of the book hits 32. So at first level you roll 5 or higher that CR6 dragon cannot find you. Your stealth will continue to climb with no upper level monsters finding you. You suggested you are somewhere in between level 10 and 14. So +10 for skill rank, +3 for class skill, at that level Dex of 20,+5. +18 to stealth before any bonuses reasonable. Now with your 3.5 concealment rules you add +20 You are at +38. This is before you roll or any other bonuses you might have picked up.

I would once I realized what your character could do after the first couple of combats would have said make a new one then let me see it. You mentioned your GM refused to let you change it then killed him. Getting mixed signals about that whole example. I do occasionally allow 3.5 materials after carful review. Your GM didn't seem to have the time or maybe he did and failed to realize what it was you were attempting and doing. You yourself should have shown restraint in making this character. You knew full concealment is as good as invisibility giving you a plus 20 just standing around. With the feat nothing except a god could find you. You mentioned you knew this yet still played the character.

I know I mentioned that total concealment is like invisibility, I don't think shadow blend would give to +20 bonus.

I had a Mesmerist and fighter rolled up, I even had a monk that left the group as they were too close to evil for his lawful good ways.

Can I ask you a question, would you ever allow the 3.5 vows in to your campaign, I had gm's who never understood paizo's reasoning for making them monk only and only giving extra ki.


Derek Dalton wrote:
Winter you have said you have been a GM. A player comes up to you saying I want to play a Rogue that can never ever be perceived at first level you'd be crazy to let them play it. Yet that is what you did as the player.

I never said i wouldn't let it, i said it would depend on the campaign, if we where playing the mythic adventure path, i would allow it s, they can get something very close to it through mythic anyways, and the right race pick.

I all depends on the campaign I am going to be DM of.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Here is a new link for the newest updates.

I made it so you can make suggestions directly in the document.

I also changed the name of the class to the Ascetic Psychic, it made sense based on the Ascetic path they get at first level.

Ascetic Psychic


FrozenLaughs wrote:

Wow. This entire debacle sounds like a train wreck that you just can't look away from. So many things have gone wrong over these sessions.

Yes, Pathfinder says it is 3.5 compatible. It is more in a sense that those rules were the foundation to the house Paizo built. Not really "grab any 3.5 book and have at it". The point of the Pathfinder system is balancing out all the b~~$%$%$ power balance issues that 257+ 3.5 books created. There's a reason the Prestige Classes took a backseat to Archetypes, and that Alternate Racial Traits were expanded on: they let you create that combination of abilities you want by simply making some tit-for-tat swaps. That's also why level adjustment shenanigans like Templates are practically gone. That's why there's so many fewer splat books.
I'm looking at my 3.5 shelf and I have 6 Complete books in sight. Flipping through them all, I'd wager there's at least 80 classes added. Probably more. Most contain the same combinations of "unique" abilities that I can reasonably emulate in Pathfinder with a simple Archetype or two, and maybe a few Racial traits. And still level a single class all the way to 20. (or at worst, dip a few levels of a basic dual class setup). Especially with the introduction of Hybrid classes.

But I'm seeing other issues too. You said that your Storyteller is 10 years younger than you? Did I read that right? As in, he's 10 and you're 20? Or he's 20 and you're 30? The lack of overall knowledge from all sides, coupled with poor grammer and the inability to concede mistakes on your own part impart a sense that everyone here is young and completely inexperienced. Having repeatedly defended your stance towards your character with "I've also Dm'd and it seems fine to me" tells me:

*You haven't Dm'd over a character as broken as yours
*You haven't Dm'd over a player as difficult as you
*You haven't played in any games where the DM had a firm enough grasp on the situations at hand
*Nobody at your table has a firm grasp on why Pathfinder is PATHFINDER and...

, im 36 and he is somewhere between 20-25, I am not sure his exact age.

Actually i have DM's over a character that used the rules in 3.5 savage species book to become a shadow creature who was a rogue/assassin, at the time this was a 3.5 campaign, and he had the darkstalker feat.

So yes i know how broken it is, but if you are a good dm you still have options to deal with it, mindsense and telepathy, antimagic, dead magic zone, area effect spells, and im not entirely sure or not if truesight will let you see someone with shadow blend, glitter dust and fairy fire as well.


Either way now i am done stating my case.


JohnHawkins wrote:

From what I have seen here we have players who are seeking weird and none standard options in some sort of munchkin power game race, combined with a novice Gm who cannot cope with all the weirdness but lacks the confidence to tell the players what they can do with their silly ideas. Then as he can't cope with all the weirdness he has allowed into the game makes random and arbitrary rulings to deal with it.

Until all concerned have grown up and or acquired more experience I suggest playing PFS(maybe even core PFS) were the strict rules on what is allowed will help both the GM and the players. Alternatively all concerned should walk away from gaming with each other until they find a mature and competent GM to properly control the game.

I find it almost impossible to have sympathy for the OP or the GM if the situation is as he describes it. I would not have tolerated his approach or the GM

What is wrong with my approach, i had a character racial concept in mind, after explaining to the gm my concept and the template i wanted, giving him ample time to say no, or tell me about any other race that would fit my concept, he didn't and i myself was unaware of any other option for how i wanted character to be for the concept i had in mind.

My concept didn't have anything to do with power gaming, it just worked out that way, when i first picked the template in mind, until i got to the first session, i was not sure what i was going to play as i was waiting for everybody else to see what they where playing, he had a war priest, a magus, a druid, a barbarian, sorceress, and a cleric, so the only thing they really needed was a rogue, so that is what i chose.

i understand how total concealment is powerful, but i wasn't using it to its full effect, most of the time i was visible, the only time i would use it was in situations where i know i could defiantly die.

Here is the rule for total concealment

TOTAL CONCEALMENT
If you have line of effect (see page 80) to a target but not line
of sight (see page 81), that target is considered to have total
concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has
total concealment, though you can attack into a square that
you think that foe occupies. You can’t make attacks of opportunity
against an opponent that has total concealment, even
if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

3.5 shadow blend rules.
Shadow Blend (Su): In any conditions other than full
daylight, a shadow creature can disappear into the shadows,
giving it total concealment. Artificial illumination, even a
light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability, but a
daylight spell will.

The ability is not always on, and i know this is not helping my point. But I just wanted to show you what i had access to.

The only difference from fetchling and total concealment is the fact that:

Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.

So there is not much difference, they still end up with giving you a 50% miss chance at first level.

When i asked about the template he told me to use the one out of the lords of madness book, which is the one i used, im not sure to his reason for this and why he didn't want me to use the one from pathfinder.


Kaladin_Stormblessed wrote:
wintersrage wrote:
But yes he didn't much like me but because we were where playing at a local hobby shop, he didn't have any way to through me out.

...Playing in a group where people don't actually want to include you just sounds like an all-around terrible idea for everyone. I'm not surprised it went badly. What did you expect?

wintersrage wrote:
I tried to talk it out with him a few times, and when he refused to let me try and fix the problem he seamed to find in my character, I took it as he was OK with it, then when he killed my character I said that's it I'm done, I'm not going back as long as he is the GM.

I'm admittedly a little dubious about this. Sounds like maybe something wasn't communicated effectively about it.

At one point I had a player who consistently "nonseriously" (but expecting answers every time) asked for overpowered options (and knew it), and nearly every time I responded with no, they would either just shrug it off as "of course, I was just joking around, that would be OP". And yet they still asked me to answer the questions, so every single one DID mean I had to take the time to answer no, and often enough go look up "okay, what's a Trox and why should I be allowing it when I said core races only", or read up on a third-party option... it got tiresome fast. And it felt a lot like the "joking" was just an excuse to fish for me underestimating something and letting it slip past.

Whatever happened in this specific case... really, as a rule of thumb, just don't ask for things you yourself wouldn't allow. If you know better than the GM what's balanced, you should care about not breaking the game for other players, even if the GM doesn't stop you. Having "warned" them doesn't change that you knew better.
(If you'd err on the side of disallowing things yourself, and asking for stuff above your preferred power level is necessary to keep up with other players at a different table, sure. But that does not sound like the case here.)

I for one for this specific campagine wouldn't have minded someone wanting to use a template, shadow creature or otherwise, as I know if ways to get around shadow creature and darkstalker feat, it is called Faire I feel or glitter dust, or a creature with telepathy and the mindsight feat, or a creature with lifesense.

But in regards to my character I had a racial concept in mind, and when I looked into the options not realizing Fetchling and Wayang's with the swaped out racial options, where player races, I would have went with that, but I find that shadow creature was the weakest option, compared to stuff like shadowborn.

Also people keep saying 3.5 is not compatible with pathfinder, but the books themselves say 3.5 compatible on them.


greater trip allows for a person to make an attack against someone you trip. Where as improved trip in 3.5 does what improved trip and greater trip does in pathfinder. Yes i understand it is more powerful in 3.5, but i was going to use the pathfinder rules for tripping, and if there is a feat in pathfinder like knockdown.

Knock-Down [General]

Prerequisites
Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.

Benefit
Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.

That is the 3.5 feat, if it exists in pathfinder, it would most likely require greater trip.

Greater Trip (Combat)
You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal: Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.

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