Lol just what I thought, guns in fantasy settings are imbalanced, no creature can stand against it...
Advanced Firearms are a bit imbalanced.
The more primitive guns and such, not so much.
Also, crush doesn't give the dragon the grappled condition. It gives everyone it crushes the pinned condition, but it remains ungrappled. Really useful for messing with the party a bit. And it does damage each round. Usually just crush for one round, then full attack whatever is left around him.
Woah, woah -- the crushing dragon still gets his full attacks? I was under the impression it needed to maintain the grapple or was in some way prevented from acting normally while it was crushing people. Are you sure about that?
Advanced Firearms are a bit imbalanced.
The more primitive guns and such, not so much.
This is with the so-called primitive guns. There are a lot of ways around the disadvantages they present. The 10th level gunslinger in my campaign TWFs with pepperboxes (archaic firearms) and does an average of 108 points of damage per round (factoring opponent AC at 10, which is usually is, or close enough).
I think Odroade meant that the dragon can attack normally in subsequent rounds, not in the same round as it made the crush attack.
Here's a question for everyone who thinks that gunslingers are particularly deadly to dragons: how many rounds can a dragon survive in melee vs a pair of martial types? (eg a fighter and a barbarian)
In my experience, any big bad type will be lucky to last more than 2 rounds so dragons should already be avoiding melee and using strafing methods and all the other methods to stay out of range. Having gunslingers to deal with too merely makes it more essential to use hit and run, surprise, invisibility, etc.
And having played a gunslinger against a well-run dragon, it was nearly a TPK. We were only saved by some very well roleplayed taunting to enrage it enough that it finally tried to melee us.
Gunslinger to party Mage: "I'm gonna need a Fly spell to deal with this assclown."
Two rounds later: BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM DEAD DRAGON! WOOOT!
<gunslinger blows the smoke off his pistols>
Might want to rethink that "solution" there...
Round One you're not getting your full attack; you have to move, then shoot. You might not even get your full attack on Round Two considering that the fly spell gives you a 30 foot fly speed and dragons have a racial fly speed of 200 feet. If the dragon moves 200 feet away from the gunslinger, even with a fly spell its impossible for the gunslinger to shoot at the dragon's touch AC during that first round.
I've never seen a GM use that used a dragon's fly speed to its full extend. Most Dragons can move 200 feet as a move action. That's insane.
Personally, I give all of my dragons the Flyby Attack feat if they don't already have it. Does wonders, but I suppose that's some GM meddling on my part. Silly me, the GM isn't allowed to do ANYTHING to make the encounter more difficult for the PCs!
But I don't expect you to agree with this advice; I've seen you shoot down better for one contrived reason or another. Rather than being unable to deal with a gunslinger, it seems to me that you simply refuse to adapt to one.
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Lol just what I thought, guns in fantasy settings are imbalanced, no creature can stand against it...
I threw a Colour Out of Space at a Gunslinger once. The results were HILARIOUS! That poor character did absolutely nothing useful the entire combat!
Lol just what I thought, guns in fantasy settings are imbalanced, no creature can stand against it...I threw a Colour Out of Space at a Gunslinger once. The results were HILARIOUS! That poor character did absolutely nothing useful the entire combat!
If ooze, incorporeal and Adamantine creatures are the only creatuers that are immune to them...
Then the bullet-user with its machine or minigun will just use adamantine bullets, or holy bullets or bullets that explode.
No monster can match the gun.
Actually, I like the gunslinger class, just not the touch AC mechanic. In future I will allow it but normalize firearms so they don't get the touch AC nonsense but also don't have to deal with the so-called "drawbacks" that were intended to make up for it (which gunslinger eventually gets to ignore anyway nyuk nyuk nyuk).
My current campaign is almost over anyway and the four or so big encounters left all have way of dealing with the gunslinger, including the spell I just mentioned (which is more elegant than Scintillating Scales because it doesn't screw over blaster casters who rely on touch attacks but have low BAB).
What I'm hearing is that since dragons would never get within 100' of the party anyway, a low level spell that negates the gunslinger's ability to to touch attacks with bullets isn't a big deal -- doesn't really have much effect on the encounter. Of course it's useful enough that EVERY dragon would learn it. Then again, since it's SOP for any party worth it's salt to use Greater Dispel on a dragon in the first combat round, it would be better for every dragon to own a discrete magic item that grants the 1st level spell all day. Might be expensive, but we can take the value out of the dragon's hoard of stuff that might otherwise have been useful to the PCs. If the gunslinger complains about EVERY dragon using the same tactics to counteract one of his class abilities (which, as so many here have already pointed out, isn't really that useful against dragons anyway), the GM can just say, "Suck it up, Buttercup -- dragons are intelligent casters living in a post-gunslinger world."
If only there were regularly available items to help with touch AC... like a ring you could were on a finger or claw that gives a deflection bonus.
Or maybe a something like ring of continuation.
Just my thought -- it seems that we are stuck in a loop. Yes everything has counters. Yes if a dragon fights on the gunslinger's grounds the dragon will have issues (at a minimum). However that's true of any creature against any character. Using a dragon to melee with a two handed fighter (especially an optimized one) is also going to end poorly for the dragon.
I think Odroade meant that the dragon can attack normally in subsequent rounds, not in the same round as it made the crush attack.
Making the crush attack is a standard action.
They only work against enemies who are 3 or more size categories smaller than the dragon, so they won't affect medium sized characters unless the dragon is Gargantuan or larger.
Victims of the Crush attack get a Reflex save to avoid it, so the gunslinger laughs and nimbly rolls out of the way. Huzzah! Thanks for wasting your one round of life, dragon!
Then there's this wording: "If the dragon chooses to maintain the pin, it must succeed at a combat maneuver check as normal."
Did something change in the rules where combat maneuver checks are now free actions? Or is Odroade in fact wrong?
If only there were regularly available items to help with touch AC... like a ring you could were on a finger or claw that gives a deflection bonus.
Or maybe a something like ring of continuation.
Just my thought -- it seems that we are stuck in a loop. Yes everything has counters. Yes if a dragon fights on the gunslinger's grounds the dragon will have issues (at a minimum). However that's true of any creature against any character. Using a dragon to melee with a two handed fighter (especially an optimized one) is also going to end poorly for the dragon.
Hmm. A ring of protection +5 costs 50,000 gp. Dragons get triple the normal treasure for a monster of their CR, so a dragon could afford one of these rings when it was CR 11 (assuming you think it's pretty cheesy to have any one item be worth more than 1/3 of the entire hoard).
An adult black dragon is CR 11. It is large, and has a touch AC of 10 (vs its normal AC of 28). This item pumps its AC up to 33 -- making it significantly harder for anyone who isn't making touch attacks to hit it. However, it just makes the gunslinger laugh -- "OH NOES! Now I'm making my attacks against an armor class of FIFTEEN!!! At level 11 with a Dexterity of 20, a couple +2 pistols and some feats, I need a ONE or better to hit when using TWF and Rapid Shot! One of my later iteratives might actually MISS!!! I'm SHAKIN' IN MY BOOTS here!!!"
Yeah, that's a great tactic right there. Really effective.
I've never seen a GM use that used a dragon's fly speed to its full extend. Most Dragons can move 200 feet as a move action. That's insane.Personally, I give all of my dragons the Flyby Attack feat if they don't already have it. Does wonders, but I suppose that's some GM meddling on my part. Silly me, the GM isn't allowed to do ANYTHING to make the encounter more difficult for the PCs!
But I don't expect you to agree with this advice; I've seen you shoot down better for one contrived reason or another. Rather than being unable to deal with a gunslinger, it seems to me that you simply refuse to adapt to one.
Flyby attack is a nice tactic -- by which I mean, the dragon who uses it is being really nice to the party casters.
"Reduce the dragon to ONE bite or claw attack per round? Or maybe a breath weapon that I've already cast protection from? While I still get to cast my spell on it every round (or maybe heal that one party member who get hit with the bite or claw attack last round)? Yes please!"
I've never seen a GM use that used a dragon's fly speed to its full extend. Most Dragons can move 200 feet as a move action. That's insane.Personally, I give all of my dragons the Flyby Attack feat if they don't already have it. Does wonders, but I suppose that's some GM meddling on my part. Silly me, the GM isn't allowed to do ANYTHING to make the encounter more difficult for the PCs!
But I don't expect you to agree with this advice; I've seen you shoot down better for one contrived reason or another. Rather than being unable to deal with a gunslinger, it seems to me that you simply refuse to adapt to one.
Flyby attack is a nice tactic -- by which I mean, the dragon who uses it is being really nice to the party casters.
"Reduce the dragon to ONE bite or claw attack per round? Or maybe a breath weapon that I've already cast protection from? While I still get to cast my spell on it every round (or maybe heal that one party member who get hit with the bite or claw attack last round)? Yes please!"
So again -- not the gunslinger that is the problem.
Gee it's almost like a party is the best way to handle big monsters...
what did we say about that again?
So again -- not the gunslinger that is the problem.
Gee it's almost like a party is the best way to handle big monsters...
what did we say about that again?
The gunslinger is very much the problem if his mere presence forces the dragon to utilize a strategy that plays into the hands of the party casters.
I don't see how having to adapt a different strategy for different classes is a problem. If a dragon were fighting a party of barbars, the dragon's strategy would be different than a party of, say, rangers.
So again -- not the gunslinger that is the problem.
Gee it's almost like a party is the best way to handle big monsters...
what did we say about that again?
The gunslinger is very much the problem if his mere presence forces the dragon to utilize a strategy that plays into the hands of the party casters.
Alright -- I am sorry that the dragon has to use the same tactics he should use against any party, and that somehow you think a dragon should go toe to toe against a party in a suicide attack.
The misfire rate for two pistols using alchemical rounds which increase the misfire rate by 2... meaning we are up to a 4. So while his first 3 attacks likely will hit (provided again nothing else is causing issues and he doesn't roll a four or under), his other 4 are at most 50% or less.
So we are a bit in the range of the rogue -- yeah with two weapons under specific circumstances and with the help of the party he can do things -- great things even -- so why is this a problem? A fighter with a two handed weapon that focuses that much into it will cause the dragon to change his tactics too (likely the dragon won't go toe to toe with that either).
You think the problem is that the dragon should go into melee and full attack repeatedly then yeah you have a problem. Unfortunately that never worked in the first place.
A fighter using a two handed weapon means that the dragon isn't going to want melee. A wizard will help ensure that the dragon doesn't want to rely solely on his breath weapon.
Again a single monster (especially one of the same challenge rating) isn't going to win or even really threaten the party. It isn't meant too. A CR equivalent monster is [g]going to lose[/b] -- it most likely isn't even going to really threaten the party. At most it should cost about 20% of the party's resources (spells, hp, abilities and expendables including per day).
It isn't a challenge -- any one party member probably should be able to handle a CR equivalent challenge on their own. The gunslinger probably can against a CR equivalent dragon, but even then he has his own problems in such a case too.
You think the problem is that the dragon should go into melee and full attack repeatedly then yeah you have a problem. Unfortunately that never worked in the first place.
You are jumping to conclusions. I never said this.
And the dragon doesn't have to be in melee with the gunslinger for the gunslinger to vaporize him -- in fact he'd be BETTER OFF in melee with the gunslinger until said gunslinger gets the feats required to fire and reload with impunity while in melee.
In the game I run, there are six players, most of whom have cohorts.This right here is your problem. Dragons get eaten alive by FOUR adventuring characters, but you're talking about at least double that if not triple (albeit those beyond the first 6 being two levels behind.)
This is fair enough, although I recognize the different encounter layouts that must be used in such parties (TWO lower CR dragons instead of ONE higher CR dragon, for instance). I mentioned my particular party size because a party of that size laughs incredulously at the sheer stupidity of anything that wastes its combat round trying to grapple -- such opponents might as well just attack themselves and be done with it.
So again -- not the gunslinger that is the problem.
Gee it's almost like a party is the best way to handle big monsters...
what did we say about that again?
The gunslinger is very much the problem if his mere presence forces the dragon to utilize a strategy that plays into the hands of the party casters.
Hmm, how does that work? Which strategy does that?
Tactics that work (for a while, since any CR-appropriate creature will die within approx 2 rounds vs a party) need to vary depending on who the dragon is fighting, eg:
Vs Fighters/Barbs/Paladins/etc: stay out of melee; strafe, fly-by, cast spells.
Vs Gunslingers/archers/ranged attackers: go into melee and drop them, or use vision-blocking tactics (dragon senses will still work), or cast disabling spells, etc. Do not remain within their optimal ranges being shot.
Vs Wizards/other casters: exactly the same as vs Gunslingers/archers except spells tend to be even more limited in their effective ranges than archers' arrows.
I'm sure that other people will have their own opinions about what works and what doesn't, but seriously it's the melee types who really travesty dragons if they get into full-attack mode. A sensible dragon will be able to take out any single character by using the right tactics.
Haven't bothered reading the responses to this thread, so pardon me if I'm being an echo here.
@OP
How to save a dragon from gunslingers. How to save gunslingers from dragons, you mean? Why would a 100+ year old int 16-ish creature with massive movement and range advantages, ever even bother entereing a range where the gunslinger can target its touch AC?
Lets say for arguments sake that this dragon does not know what a gun is, and comes just close enough for it get shot at. As soon as the hot lead just breaks through the dragon's scales, which it has relied on to stop swords, arrows and even ballista-fire, it should immediately retreat to a a greater distance and consider its options. Sure this gives the players time to buff, sure it gives them rounds, but the fact is that the dragon is presented with a unique challenge. It does not have to risk its potentially thousands of years long life, bracenly hammering its face into this new threat, it can weigh its options, bide its time. It could follow the party and drop spells on them at night, target their mounts and isolate them in the wilderness. If they enter a forest, perhaps it starts a forest-fire(in case of reds) or does something else. When they're tired and broken and ripe for the picking, it can go in. Reminding you this is just the case for a dragon who does not realize what a gun is, and cannot figure out how it works.
If the dragon can figure it out, or knows beforehand, I have to reiterate, why would it ever get in touch-AC distance? It's a dragon. Fly circles around the party and murder them from a distance. Only the stupidest of dragons would willingly enter that kind of range where the Gunslinger can target touch AC. It puts it within charge-range of Conan and his magic dragonslaying greatsword. Understand that to a dragon, a party of adventuring monkeys consist of 2 threats. The guy with the ranged weapon and the guy with the spells. If somehow the guy with the spells make the guy with the sword able to fly and come to the dragon, then the dragon can wait out the spell. It has 16-ish int and probably a decent enough knowledge(arcana) and spellcraft check to know what's up.
Dragons are scary.
-Nearyn
Nearyn, assuming that most of what you are saying is correct (and I will point out that your suggestion that the dragon should engage the gunslinger is melee is a TERRIBLE one, since any gunslinger worth his salt will sprint for the ability to load and fire his firearms without drawing AoO as soon as is practical), it begs the observation that any other monsters that have high AC and low touch AC are pretty well screwed by the gunslinger's existence.
Not what the OP asked about, but worth considering.
Nearyn, assuming that most of what you are saying is correct (and I will point out that your suggestion that the dragon should engage the gunslinger is melee is a TERRIBLE one,
Maybe read my post again, mate? ;)
it begs the observation that any other monsters that have high AC and low touch AC are pretty well screwed by the gunslinger's existence.
Not what the OP asked about, but worth considering.
I'm responding to an inquiry about dragons, not other monsters. I've not taken a stance on the power of the gunslinger, nor do I have any intention of doing so, before playing one.
-Nearyn
Maybe read my post again, mate? ;)
Apologies, I had your post confused with Gilarius' where he said:
"Vs Gunslingers/archers/ranged attackers: go into melee and drop them"
Maybe read my post again, mate? ;)
Apologies, I had your post confused with Gilarius' where he said:
"Vs Gunslingers/archers/ranged attackers: go into melee and drop them"
Aaaah~ that explains it. I will admit, I was really confused for a moment :]
For what it's worth, I completely agree. Melee is usually the worst option for dragons, which is why I'm astounded that many APs write into their tactics that they enter melee. That is something I'd expect of a dragon if it had 7 int, not 10 or higher.
-Nearyn
I'm responding to an inquiry about dragons, not other monsters. I've not taken a stance on the power of the gunslinger, nor do I have any intention of doing so, before playing one.
Again, not what the OP asked about -- but worth considering. Most monsters do not have the intelligence or maneuverability of dragons.
Although this CAN work out to hurt the gunslinger.
Case in point:
In my campaign's last session, the party (bard, gunslinger, flame oracle, alchemist, cavalier, ranger, and cohorts) encountered a frost worm (at CR 12 the frost worm is about an average EL encounter for such a large party of 10th level PCs and their cohorts).
After rolling frost worm's hide and party's perception checks, it was determined that the frost worm was (miraculously, I rolled very high) able to remain undetected until within 30' of the party.
Surprise round, the halfling ranger sees SOMETHING burrowing up out of the snow before the party and rides his wolf animal companion a bit to the right of the party.
Frost worm rears up and breathes on the entire party, including the ranger and his wolf. Wolf animal companion goes unconscious. Cohorts are severely injured, and only the two party members with permanent cold protection (this is a campaign set in a cold region) are unscathed.
Now begins the first full round of combat. With his great dexterity and other abilities, gunslinger goes first. He quickdraws his pistols and BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM shoots the frost worm five times, hitting with every shot (touch AC, dontchaknow) and critting twice. Frost worm dies before anyone else can act.
The gunslinger is just about to blow his pistols and bow when he notices that the frost worm's black eye has gone white, there are cracks in its hide where it has frozen solid, and -- it explodes!
Everyone within a 100' radius takes a ton of cold and piercing damage, resulting a dead animal companion, a dead cohort, and the rest of the party so mangled that they end their adventuring day then and there.
It's worth noting that the bard -- who knew what frost worms were and what they could do -- was the next person able to act. He never got to warn the party because the gunslinger took the worm out before he could say anything.
Frost worms can be pretty good schmuck bait for a gunslinger.
Maybe read my post again, mate? ;)
Apologies, I had your post confused with Gilarius' where he said:
"Vs Gunslingers/archers/ranged attackers: go into melee and drop them"
A terrible idea? No, it's sound. In your earlier reply, you claimed that a gunslinger would get the feats to be able to shoot and reload in melee. That's not true until he's quite high level since his priority will be getting the ones for just shooting effectively, however it doesn't matter: after one round of having a dragon in melee with a gunslinger, he's dead. Lack of hit points compared with the damage output of a dragon. And I did mention the little matter of the dragon using vision-blocking effects or striking with surprise.
As Nearyn points out and as I said earlier, dragons really need to avoid melee with fighters, barbarians, and especially paladins. Gunslingers are squishy, like wizards with a few more hit points.
Maybe read my post again, mate? ;)
Apologies, I had your post confused with Gilarius' where he said:
"Vs Gunslingers/archers/ranged attackers: go into melee and drop them"
Aaaah~ that explains it. I will admit, I was really confused for a moment :]
For what it's worth, I completely agree. Melee is usually the worst option for dragons, which is why I'm astounded that many APs write into their tactics that they enter melee. That is something I'd expect of a dragon if it had 7 int, not 10 or higher.
SOME dragons -- notably white dragons (and fang dragons, if you use 3.5) -- are either less intelligent or more inclined to combat.
Also, in 3.5 the draconomicon included some nasty options for melee dragons. You did NOT want to close in melee with such a dragon, who could get many more melee attacks per round than you would think.
Not exactly PF, that, but compatible.
Design Manager
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Have you thought about, rather than changing the dragons, changing the guns? Instead of having guns just target touch AC, we give them a "penetration rating". The base PR of a one-handed firearm is 2, and the base PR of a two-handed firearm is 4, meaning that they bypass the first 2-4 points of armor, natural armor, and shields. Each point of enhancement bonus increases the PR by that amount (so a +5 rifle would have a PR of 9, basically allowing it to completely tear through full plate as though it weren't even there). You could increase or decrease the base PR for specific weapons if you wanted to, or just go off that general system. That way Gunslingers still have an advantage and you assert a certain amount of realism into your game without it breaking down entirely.
The other option I've gone with, is 3.5 had a spell called scintillating scales (I think) which turned natural armor bonuses into deflection bonuses. Pretty much every dragon I've run in games where we didn't use PR and had a gun-user in the group knew that spell.
...we give them a "penetration rating"
............
............
............
No. It'd be too easy.
-Nearyn
/Thread
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Design Manager
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...we give them a "penetration rating"............
............
............
No. It'd be too easy.
-Nearyn
/Thread
Sigh.........
C'mon now. You have a better idea on what to call it?
...
Maybe don't answer that.
**EDIT**
If that was a comment on it actually being a good idea that should have happened in the first place and not a Beavis and Butthead style "heheh penetration", then thanks, and my bad for misunderstanding. You know, forums, general maturity levels..
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After one round of having a dragon in melee with a gunslinger, he's dead. Lack of hit points compared with the damage output of a dragon.
With light armor and Dexterity as their prime stat, the gunslinger will have one of the best armor classes in the party. He'll also have some of the best hit points in the game (d10 and no reason NOT to put his second highest stat into Con).
He'll have the staying power of a fighter, at least.
The other option I've gone with, is 3.5 had a spell called scintillating scales (I think) which turned natural armor bonuses into deflection bonuses. Pretty much every dragon I've run in games where we didn't use PR and had a gun-user in the group knew that spell.
Yep -- a good idea, although it should be SOP for any party to drop at least one Greater Dispel on any dragon that they run into ASAP.
Anyway, as already discussed here, a variant of the 2nd level Scintillating Scales spell that worked exactly the same way except that it ONLY protected against firearms (call it Bulletproof Hide, a spell that makes the recipient's natural armor effective against firearm attacks regardless of range) would be less powerful and therefore of lower level (level 1).
A magic item that granted permanent effect for a 1st level spell that usually lasted 1 minute per level should be Bunko's Bargain Basement cheap. Dragons in a post gunslinger world would be keenly interested in acquiring such items.
After one round of having a dragon in melee with a gunslinger, he's dead. Lack of hit points compared with the damage output of a dragon.With light armor and Dexterity as their prime stat, the gunslinger will have one of the best armor classes in the party. He'll also have some of the best hit points in the game (d10 and no reason NOT to put his second highest stat into Con).
He'll have the staying power of a fighter, at least.
Everything Pennywit wrote is excellent, and is what an intelligent dragon should be doing against a party already - or it dies in 2 rounds like 'lesser' creatures do.
Werebat, on the other hand, seems to be fixated on how dragons are weak and die all the time.
Do I have to work out precise round-by-round actions for you? Since you want a gunslinger with all the shooting in melee feats (as well as the actual shooting effectively feats) then it is reasonable for a dragon to also have few spells and feats too. So, after a couple of flyby attacks or breath weapon strikes to soften him up, the now invisible (greater if possible) dragon flies silently (they have good stealth scores) to the gunslinger. It unleashes a full attack doing about 200 damage and hitting with pretty much every attack because gunslinger AC isn't very high (especially if the gunslinger loses his Dex bonus due to greater invisibility). No more gunslinger. The same applies to an archer or a mage.
What kills the dragon is the paladin standing next to the gunslinger who declares a smite evil and does 300 damage back.
Which is why this only works vs a lone character and not against parties whether a gunslinger is present or not.
From an RP perspective:
(not changing a thing)
1) Have the group go on a quest to get a dragon (for a hefty reward), have the dragon have a smaller than usual horde (or a normal one), when the party returns, the person or town celebrates their victory...until...they find out the Gunslinger was involved. "Oh you had to use that?!" or something similar
2)Have the user encounter the dragon, if they are victorious, they encounter either a group of Druids who are against the use of firearms in their area, or have them arrested by a King (or Duke or something) claiming "hunting on protected lands with a banded weapon"
And one extra note about dragons being 'colour-coded for your convenience'.
Disguise skill. Alter self (transmutation) or various illusions. Roll in lots of mud.
Quest: Kill the marauding dragon
Players: What colour is it?
Brown. Black with splashes of green. Stripy. Or do a full fake colour trick: eg Blue dragon disguised as a red, casting fireball spells instead of using its breath weapon.
Players: hmm, how many Protection from Energy spells do we need this time?
And if it's a surprise attack, how many rounds to work out why their protection vs fire spell isn't working against the red dragon's electrical breath weapon...