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I'm beginning a new campaign and have decided to allow Gunslingers and firearms. I've reviewed the Class and the firearm stats and haven't seen anything jump out at me that I should be overly concerned about... and that worries me.
What should I be wary of or lookout for? What Feats/Traits/Items can be combo'd to make my head explode? Is anything "broken"?
While I have time to research all this before the campaign starts in a few weeks, I'm curious as to the major consensus on the boards here.
Also, we will be playing the Reign of Winter AP. Should extreme cold have an effect on misfires, or is that being a bit too overzealous?
Pros/Cons?
Sick Builds or Feat Combos?
Ambiguous wording in the rules?
Please give me your thoughts on what to expect.
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Don't allow double-barrelled weapons or reloading pistols with weapon cords (so they can't reload while dual-wield pistols) and you will be fine :)
I'm not familiar with the AP, but misfires should already have a major impact on the class. If you want there to be an additional effect, warn players ahead of time and only increase the misfire chance by 1. This will put a pistol on par with it's double barrelled counterpart and still be balanced.
As for builds, gunslingers should always choose either pistolero or musketeer if they want to be optimized. Feat progression is pretty set in order until about level 5. Personally I take Precise Shot earlier but gunslingers can afford to wait since they target touch AC.
1st: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim (conserve ammo)
3rd: Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim
4th: Rapid Reload/Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim
5th: Precise Shot
Time and gold is how you give them. This will keep Gunslinger in check. Controll time to build and watch how much GP you give them.
Gunslingers aren't that much different from archers. They fire more slowly, for more damage, but this seems like more of a similarity than a difference to me.
Remember to think about visibility. I'm going to take a wild guess and assume snow and blizzard conditions, at least sometimes. Figure out how that works now, so you're not on the spot.
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What about firearms targeting Touch AC? I hadn't realized this was the case with firearms and it's a bit disconcerting (as some other threads have touched on). I'm really debating how to handle this. It seems odd to me that a guy standing butt-naked is as easy to take down with a firearm as the guy in full plate... What is the rationale behind this?
Bullets hit hard enough to ignore armor, basically. It only works in the first range increment though, so pistol-users have to stay within 20 feet and musket users within 40.
I've been very wary about allowing Gunslingers into my game, specifically due to the touch AC rule. I'm allowing them into my next campaign with the following changes:
*Gunslinger changes – No Pistoleer Archetype, Firearms do not attack touch AC by default. Deadeye Deed changed to the following:
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when using her firearm. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment including the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed. This deed cannot be combined with Dead Shot. The Grit cost for this deed cannot be reduced in any way.
I'm well aware that I might be being overcautious, but I'd prefer the gunslinger be weaker to start and adjusted upwards if necessary rather than the opposite.
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The Touch AC mechanic makes perfect sense. At close range, the penetrating power of a bullet punches straight through armor. It's balanced by the close range a PC must get to use it and misfire chance.
I would strongly advise you against tweaking the class or giving it less gold then normal PC's. The class is balanced just some of the equiptment at it's disposal(specifically double-barelled weapons and dual-wielding via weapon cords) is not. If you disallow those the gunslinger will be fine.
If a player is set on using a double weapon, then change it to function exactly like the feat multi-shot. Feat balance it's the same (an archer takes multi-shot the gunslinger EWP(double pistol)).
What about firearms targeting Touch AC? I hadn't realized this was the case with firearms and it's a bit disconcerting (as some other threads have touched on). I'm really debating how to handle this. It seems odd to me that a guy standing butt-naked is as easy to take down with a firearm as the guy in full plate... What is the rationale behind this?
You could play with the optional Armor as DR rule from Ultimate Combat, although that has its own drawbacks.
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My main advice would be to not allow advanced firearms.
Forgot to mention this. For some reason many GM's don't understand that advanced firearms were not intended for use in Golarion. They are just extra material if you want to run a Wild-West campaign. Many people who complain about gunslingers have incorporated advenced firearms into their campaigns. Mechanically though a double pistol is better than an advanced firearm.
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My main advice would be to not allow advanced firearms.
The early weapons are not too bad, they misfire alot and the 20 feet limit on touch ACs cuts down on the full attacks.
Yeah, I will def be following the Golarion approach and using "Emerging Firearms". My player is already asking about the double barrel pistol, and, being as he has read the description for Rasputin Must Die! is drooling at the thought of 20th Century guns...
Our last/current campaign run by another GM, was very restricted (CRB only with a sprinkling of a few spells from the APG) so I want to open it up a little. However, I have to be ever vigilant of the power creep with some of my players, so I am just trying to get a grasp on potential problems.
I will let it play out first following the RAW, and then adjust as needed.
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They are still a tier 5 martial class, why take away all their toys?
I don't see you removing Grease Colour Spray and Sleep from your wizards.
Simmer down CWheezy;) You're right, you don't see me taking anything away from Wizards. I haven't taken anything away from any Class. I was merely looking for some insight to the mechanics as the Gunslinger has never been played at my table.
I almost thought, for a second, that you were one of my players posting incognito.
I have a 3rd level Mysterious Pistolero 1st Level Grenadeer (Alchemist) in Carrion Crown.
I have been less effective than the monk. I have just got enough gold to buy my second pistol. My plan is to have at least 6 pistols and quick draw so I don't need rapid reload.
At 20 feet I am guaranteed to do 1D8 points of damage. Less than a wizard with magic missile at the same level. If i spend grit a finite resource I can push it to 1D8 + 1D6 +3.....
Less than a backstab by a high strength thief with a long sword.
Unlike bows and arrows, guns are more problematic.
You need a forge to make those bullets.
Gunpowder requires chemical know-how and equipment, you just cannot make it in the wilderness and miraculously find charcoal, sulfur, potassium nitrate and so on.
Unless the gunfighter keeps his weapons dry, rain and water will make powder and wadding useless.
Not saying to screw the players around with that, but weather was very problematic for the colonials in times past.
If a gunfighter keeps his gear at his belt, his powder and wadding in leather sacks that are not water proof, and he jumps into a swamp or river, he will face some problems with his firearms.
At low levels they're not so much of a problem. The lack of gold is what gimps them the most. But come later levels, things CAN start to get out of hand. Even with early firearms, you can manage to reload as a free action with pistols by using alchemich cartridges, and the cost per bullet is quickly off-set by finding a +1 item every-other encounter. As long as you don't dump riches at their feet after every encounter, and make them work for what they get, you shouldn't run into a problem of seeing a huge power spike any time pre-level 11.
Thankfully, Gunslingers are moderately fragile so a few well placed blasting spells (before level 15 at least when the gain evasion), or a grappler are enough to deal with them handily. Pretty much anything that works against an archer works against a gunslinger. As long as you make their enemies competent, the Gunslinger presents no bigger threat than your average PC. Worse comes to worst, just send a bunch of monks or incorporeal creatures at the party and watch the GS weep.
Now, if you're looking for worst case scenario...
Remember when I mentioned that pre-level 11 things? Yeah, there's one feat you have to watch out for, and that's Signature Deed. Read up on that, and then combined it with the Bleeding Shot and Up Close and Deadly deeds. That's when things get out of hand. Limiting your GS to taking this feat only once, instead of as many times as he wants, will help cut back on the power. Now, I know this is theory crafting, but things can get out of hand if your player is a power gamer.
If you don't believe here's some math:
Level 20 Pistolero
Dex 30 (no problem for a level 20)
9 attacks (4 attacks, TWFx3, rapid shot, haste)
Each attack is made with a double pistol, so he gets two shots per attack = 18d8 with full modifiers on all shots.
So 18d8+ (Dex mod x18) + (enchantment bonus x18) + Deadly aim (12 x18) + Up Close and Deadly on every shot (5d6 x18)
You're looking at 18d8 (avg 81) + 180 + 90 + 216 + 90d6 (avg 315) = 882 possible damage in a full round attack. And with Cluster Shot and DR only applies once.
The god Orcus only has 742 (+33 from con score) HP and DR 25. On average, a level 20 Gunslinger could kill Orcus in a full round attack.
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Yeah, there's one feat you have to watch out for, and that's Signature Deed. Read up on that, and then combined it with the Bleeding Shot and Up Close and Deadly deeds. That's when things get out of hand. Limiting your GS to taking this feat only once, instead of as many times as he wants, will help cut back on the power.
Signature Deed already can only be taken once per RAW.
Unlike bows and arrows, guns are more problematic.
You need a forge to make those bullets.
Gunpowder requires chemical know-how and equipment, you just cannot make it in the wilderness and miraculously find charcoal, sulfur, potassium nitrate and so on.
Logically of course, but the Gunslinger can craft ammo out of anything with the Gunsmithing ability.
For the GM in the OP, it really depends on the style of game you want. The gunslinger class was developed with heroic roleplaying in mind. In this style (the style for the Golarn campaign setting) players are much less worried about frivilous details such as bullet presses, salt peter, ect. and more about the next adventure. If you want a more gritty feel then you should implement this but note it should change the entire mood of your campaign.
One thing also to remember about firearms is they are not very Stealthy as they make a big boom so everyone around knows you got a gun. To make matter worse in the campaign Im playing in we are using early Matchlocke guns and the Burning match of the matchlocke also give away your position if you are trying to hide.
Grant Pathfinder does not say what type your gun is, whether they are Matchlockes , flintlocks or Wheelock.
One thing also to remember about firearms is they are not very Stealthy as they make a big boom so everyone around knows you got a gun.
Maybe someone has made a makeshift silencer for their guns.
Roll Perception to hear the muffled shot.That would be cool to have.
Op when I was a gunslinger in Serpents skull the hardest part for me was the crafting bullets. I would have to spend a random amount of gold to buy "supplies" then I would be able to craft bullets. at one point I was melting down daggers and axes for metal for my bullets.
overall it is really expensive to play a gunslinger and to craft fire arms and guns. just make sure you work out with your player ahead of time to make sure he knows the rules and the mechanics of making bullets and upkeep of pistols. I would even say has a GM you would meet with him and go voer how he will get supplies, ie charcoal, sulfur ext.. in a winter waste land and how much it will cost ie 200 gold buys you one days worth of crafting materials ext...or you can just have him melt the toy soldiers of his dead child killed by the british if available.
Op when I was a gunslinger in Serpents skull the hardest part for me was the crafting bullets. I would have to spend a random amount of gold to buy "supplies" then I would be able to craft bullets. at one point I was melting down daggers and axes for metal for my bullets.
overall it is really expensive to play a gunslinger and to craft fire arms and guns. just make sure you work out with your player ahead of time to make sure he knows the rules and the mechanics of making bullets and upkeep of pistols. I would even say has a GM you would meet with him and go voer how he will get supplies, ie charcoal, sulfur ext.. in a winter waste land and how much it will cost ie 200 gold buys you one days worth of crafting materials ext...or you can just have him melt the toy soldiers of his dead child killed by the british if available.
Bullet molds where standard equipment for soldiers and pioneers during the Musket era. During the Wars of Napoleon they where issued to all corporals in the British army. You got 14 1/2 balls to a pound of lead for a Brown Bess Musket and 34 balls for a flintlock pistol..
Might also point out both fire and water are bad for early firearms . A wet musket( like if hit with a sleet storm) is a club. And being hit with a burning hands or a fireball while having a bunch of black powder on you might ruin your day.
Op when I was a gunslinger in Serpents skull the hardest part for me was the crafting bullets. I would have to spend a random amount of gold to buy "supplies" then I would be able to craft bullets. at one point I was melting down daggers and axes for metal for my bullets.
overall it is really expensive to play a gunslinger and to craft fire arms and guns. just make sure you work out with your player ahead of time to make sure he knows the rules and the mechanics of making bullets and upkeep of pistols. I would even say has a GM you would meet with him and go voer how he will get supplies, ie charcoal, sulfur ext.. in a winter waste land and how much it will cost ie 200 gold buys you one days worth of crafting materials ext...or you can just have him melt the toy soldiers of his dead child killed by the british if available.Bullet molds where standard equipment for soldiers and pioneers during the Musket era. During the Wars of Napoleon they where issued to all corporals in the British army. You got 14 1/2 balls to a pound of lead for a Brown Bess Musket and 34 balls for a flintlock pistol..
Might also point out both fire and water are bad for early firearms . A wet musket( like if hit with a sleet storm) is a club. And being hit with a burning hands or a fireball while having a bunch of black powder on you might ruin your day.
yeah i was making a mel gibson joke the bulletmold is most likely part of a gun smithing kit. but the chracoal and sulfur are not.
I would even say has a GM you would meet with him and go voer how he will get supplies, ie charcoal, sulfur ext..
Have him borrow it from the wizard's spell component pouch.
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If you're worried about the whole "touch AC" thing, remember that it only works within one range increment, and firearms' range increments are shorter than other ranged weapons. Any enemy that can stay 50 or more feet away (on the other side of a chasm, on a boat or wagon riding alongside, on a horse, flying, etc.) and shoot a bow is going to take a gunslinger down a peg quite effectively.
Still, I'd say the gunslinger deserves his share of opportunity to shine. I'd avoid trying to nerf him specifically with extra restrictions on misfiring. Heck, that "50 feet away" encounter might make his like rough, but it might also be his time to shine if he's the only ranged-focus character in the group.
Has a DM it will test every bone in your body the Touch AC rule dont freak out and remember if they are close enough to shoot you they are close enough to be face punched
I'm well aware that I might be being overcautious, but I'd prefer the gunslinger be weaker to start and adjusted upwards if necessary rather than the opposite.
They are weaker at the start. No need to be cautious. They get better as they level (more feats help), but archers beat trhem out of the park forever.
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Thanks for all the input folks!
As I stated in one of my previous responses, he is already asking for a Double Barreled Pistol before we've even started. At what point should I entertain that idea? Certainly not at 1st level, right? He's thinking of taking the Noble trait that gives you +2,000gp at 1st level and purchasing a DBP with it. Should I just say NO, flat out? The PC will be from Alkenstar, so it makes sense I guess that he could do this. I just don't want him to start too far ahead of the power curve. Granted he still has a limit on attacks per round and still has to reload, but many of the responses here are warning me about the DBP, or any other multi-shot firearm.
Is it a bad idea to let him do this, or should I "stick to my guns" and limit him to starting with a Blunderbuss, Musket, or Pistol?
Plasma Ooze > Gunslinger
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The big drawback of the double pistol is if you choose to fire both shots, you have to fire both shots. So if the first misfires, the second one has the additional misfire chance anc if that one misfires too, BANG! This has happened to me twice in PFS, luckily not at low levels. If this occurs he is pretty much dead weight.
And as he levels a double pistol user's damage goes up rapidly. By level three he should have rapid shot which means four attacks per round. I'm hesitant to call this overpowered because any smart gunslinger would save this option for desperate measures as there is a realtively high chance his gun will explode.
As an alternative to the double pistol, I would suggest making all double firearms operate exactly like the feat manyshot. This would protects the gunslinger from his firearm exploding (because his first attack would only be one attack roll), prevent the obnoxious ammount of dice a double firearm user can throw, and maintain balance with archers in feat investment (exotic weapon prof. (double) and Manyshot). Of course Pistolero and Musketeer would get that feat for free but there are perks for being an archetype :)