Hello Everyone,
First and foremost I would like to say hi to everyone as this is my first post here on the boards. I have been a long time lurker that has greatly enjoyed the many and varied topics posted here on the forums.
With that out of the way I can now specify the reason for my post; I am in need of advice. I am about to embark on a new game (staring level is 10, 24~30 point buy[not sure yet], standard wealth) in which I will be playing a Magus ... tank. I know that this might not be optimal but we promised our DM that we would each try something new and different for this game. I have read most of the guides and will admit that I am still struggling to come up with a build that I believe is effective. I am hoping that by posting here I can iron out the kinks. Please review the build that I have below and let me know what you think. All comments are welcome.
Race: elf
Favoured Class Option: Magus gains 1/6 of a new magus arcana
Class: Bladebound*/Kensai Magus 10
Traits: Reactionary, Resilient
Feats: - Lvl1 - Weapon Focus (B), Weapon Finesse
- Lvl3 - Greatweapon Spell Combat
- Lvl5 - Weapon Specialization (black blade), Power Attack (B)
- Lvl7 - ?
- Lvl9 - ?
Magus Arcana: - Lvl3 - Magus Arcana -> Black Blade
- Lvl6 - Magus Arcana (wand wielder), Bonus Magus Arcana (arcane accuracy)
- Lvl9 - Magus Arcana -> Critical Perfection
Spells (assume Int 20): - Lvl0 - Read Magic, Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, ?
- Lvl1 - Enlarge Person, Shield x2, Shocking Grasp, True Strike, Grease
- Lvl2 - Blur, Mirror Image, Frigid Touch, ?
- Lvl3 - Haste, Force Hook Charge, ?
- Lvl4 - Black Tentacles
Gear ideas: - +1 agile elven curveblade
- wand of shocking grasp
- wand of mage armor
* Black blade = elven curveblade (I will have a wand chamber built into the handle. Wand chambers can be found in Dungeonscape.)
I am going with the bladebound/kensai magus mostly because I think it's pretty darn cool. I also believe that the Kensai Magus will have a pretty stellar AC at higher levels (especially coupled with a Mage Armour and Shield spell). As you can see from the build I need some help with feat choices, gear and spell suggestions.
All help is greatly appreciated!
What stats are you using? If you are tanking, I would consider the crane style feats.
What is this "greatweapon spell combat" feat. I have never heard of it before. Also, you can't spell combat with a two-handed weapon. You have to have 1 hand free the whole time. You'll need UMD to cast Mage Armor (since it's not on the Magus spell list). Also, need intensified metamagic with Magical lineaged shocking grasp. 1st level spell slot 10d6 touch. Now buy a bunch of pearl of powers level 1.
If you would like to get a cantrip that you can use preferrably than Arcane Mark, you can grab the Trait "Two-World Magic"
You use that to grab the wizard spell, Touch of Fatigue. DC 15 to give the Fatigued condition, a neat little trick to use other than "marking" stuff for free attacks.
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We're facing some lack of information as build, feat, and spell selection can depend a lot on what other classes are there and how long the adventuring day is. Magus do face the problem of being a 15 minute wonder and then a so-so fighter the rest of the time. This can be worked around a number of different ways.
Some suggestions / fixes to what I see you have so far -
Magus can not use Wand of Mage Armor as Mage Armor is not on the Magus Spell list. You can get around this by picking up the Arcana that allows you to grab wizard spells or grab the arcana for a familiar and the improved familiar feat.
If you're planning on using wands, a familiar and improved famiar is the suggested way to go. Grab yourself a familiar that's able to use UMD and have your familiar use all those wands and scrolls. Familiars almost all require a GM check for UMD as the rules around this are a bit vague.
Another suggestion is pick up a Wand of Shield. Use that in the first round of combat and then drop it.
Weapon: Elven Curve Blade is a 2handed weapon and can NOT be used with spell combat. As spell combat has a requirement of light or 1handed weapon and a free hand for the full round.
Feat: Power Attack. I feel this is a trap. Others like it. My issue is that you're already suffering a -2 to hit with spell combat and stacking more negitives to hit with a 3/4 BAB class is bad. While it is doable when you use Arcane Accuracy, you just don't have enough AP points to do it often enough to make it worth while.
I do have a Magus I play that doubles as a tank.
Standard Strength Magus.
Magus Arcana (wand wielder)
Feat: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Extra Arcana Points.
Gear: Wand of True Strike, Shield
Tactics: Using Spell Combat I use wand of True Strike and then make a Improved Trip attack. With the +20 to hit from True Strike the target almost alwasy go down.
Spell Selection: Defensive Spells, AoE Spells, and Ranged Spells.
I do NOT use Shocking Grasp. The AoE and Ranged spells give me more flexablity for fights.
Utility Spells like Enlarge (allows me to trip HUGE), Fly, Darkvision, Protection from X, I like to have as potions or scrolls. Depending on the spell.
1) Don't think you can add agile to the black blade - so you really want dervish dance and a schimitar
2) magical liniage + intenficied is a class feature for the magus.
Meito wrote: Race: elf
Favoured Class Option: Magus gains 1/6 of a new magus arcana
Class: Bladebound*/Kensai Magus 10
Traits: Reactionary, Resilient
Feats: - Lvl1 - Weapon Focus (B), Weapon Finesse
- Lvl3 - Greatweapon Spell Combat
- Lvl5 - Weapon Specialization (black blade), Power Attack (B)
- Lvl7 - ?
- Lvl9 - ?
For traits I wouldnt worry about Reactionary, Kensai is going to be giving you a boost to your Initiative and with your High DEX I dont think its needed.
You cant pick up Weapon Spec at level 5, You dont get fighter Training until level 7 and this is where you can pick it up. At level 5 I would take Craft Wondrous Items if your GM allows. This will give you alot of bang for your buck.
I had alot more to write till I realized your using a 2handed weapon. Are you stuck on this? Your going to lose a lot without being about to access Spell Combat (major class feature). If your not going to use Spell combat I would suggest and EK would be a better Option.
Some generic advice:
Others have already offered some good advice.
I would recommend keeping reactionary and getting improved initiative. You lose a huge part of your AC when you are flat-footed or denied Dex. Ninjas are your worst enemy!
If you are going to invest in UMD I recommend some wands/items that will add to your perception, like see invisibilty and true seeing as well, to ensure you aren't caught flat-footed.
Reduce person is another boost to your AC. With an agile weapon it is a great spell to have.
If you can fit toughness in somewhere, that would be helpful for tanking, too, I believe.
There are also a few traits that reduce the metamagic cost of one spell by one. I would suggest taking it with Shocking Grasp and take the metamagic Intensify.
This will allow your Shocking Grasp to max at 10d6 instead of 5d6 and its still a 1st level spell. Combine that with some pearls of power and you will have a more staying power for prolonged fights or several fights in one day.
Heh, Just saw this thread.
I actually am currently playing a LvL 9 (8 kensai, bladebound magus/1 unarmed fighter)
And he works as the party tank.
AC is 24, Shield to 28, Fight defensive brings it to 32 with a free deflect a round. Add to that mirror image and I take almost zero damage.
When you do, just sub out one round of 9d6 shocking grasp spell combat for a Vamp touch and heal back up.
You can find my sheet Here, Sebastian Li
I have played this from 1st level up and it has worked great.
*Note* I party with a high Init Sorc that drops haste each combat, if you don't, then buy some boots of speed.
The only issue here is that I cannot find the "greatweapon spell combat" feat that you mention. The build is fun and flavorful, but I'm assuming that feat is what is allowing you to still use a 2-handed weapon while keeping your class features. If it's a homebrew feat that your DM created, then by all means, go ahead. However, using a 2-handed weapon removes access to the crane style tree of feats which as some have already suggested is a great feat tree for tanks.
Dukai wrote: The only issue here is that I cannot find the "greatweapon spell combat" feat that you mention. The build is fun and flavorful, but I'm assuming that feat is what is allowing you to still use a 2-handed weapon while keeping your class features. They have THIS that is third party that lets you use a 2hander and still have access to spell combat.
Another proposal (sketched out, not completed)
Magus(Bladebound Kensei)9, Wizard (evoker-Admixture) 1 taken at 4th level. Bonded object is your scimitar.
Scimitar Kensei
Str: 10, Dex: 18, Con 14, Int: 18, Wis 10, Cha: 7
Traits: Warrior of Old, Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
Feats: Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance (3rd), Extra Arcana (5th Arcane Accuracy)), Extra Arcane Pool 7th (magus 8th)), Extra Arcana Wand Wielder
Bonus Arcana at 6th level magus (7th level character):Broad Study
Arcana at 9th level magus (10th level character): Accurate Strike?
Witrh the Evoker-admisture, 7/day, your shocking grasp can be acid, fire or cold (among other spells)
Your scimitar is your bonded object as well as your best buddy.
You trade in your weapon familarity and skill bonuses for the racial "Flett of Foot"
So your initiative is: Dex+2 trait+2 racial=+8, then add kensei and improved initiative.
BTW, for those proposing familiars, you CANNOT have a familiar with a black blade.
Wow! First off many thanks for the responses and advice folks. Its greatly appreciated. I will now attempt to respond to everything ...
Byrdology wrote: What stats are you using? If you are tanking, I would consider the crane style feats. As of yet I do not know what my stats will be. We are going to be using either 24 point buy or higher, my DM has not yet specified. For now lets assume a 30 point buy. This would allow me the following stat array:
Str 10, Dex 16 -> 18, Con 14 -> 12, Int 16 -> 18 (stat boost x 2), Wis 10, Cha 14
Thanks for mentioning the crane style feats! Those are an excellent choice for a tank, however. The prerequisites are bit steep for a non monk.
Kiinyan wrote: What is this "greatweapon spell combat" feat. I have never heard of it before. Also, you can't spell combat with a two-handed weapon. You have to have 1 hand free the whole time. You'll need UMD to cast Mage Armor (since it's not on the Magus spell list). Also, need intensified metamagic with Magical lineaged shocking grasp. 1st level spell slot 10d6 touch. Now buy a bunch of pearl of powers level 1. The feat is found in Advance Feats: Might of the Magus. The feat allows you to use a two-handed weapon with spell combat. I like the intensified metagic/magical lineage trick. The only thing that worries me is that if I use that combo will it be a detriment to my tanking ability?
Cao Phen wrote: Snip .... That is a fantastic trick!
Byrdology wrote: Pearl necklace of power! Ugh, I cannot believe I left that out of the gear selections I had already made. >.<
Matt2VK wrote: We're facing some lack of information as build, feat, and spell selection can depend a lot on what other classes are there and how long the adventuring day is. Magus do face the problem of being a 15 minute wonder and then a so-so fighter the rest of the time. This can be worked around a number of different ways.
Some suggestions / fixes to what I see you have so far -
Magus can not use Wand of Mage Armor as Mage Armor is not on the Magus Spell list. You can get around this by picking up the Arcana that allows you to grab wizard spells or grab the arcana for a familiar and the improved familiar feat.
If you're planning on using wands, a familiar and improved famiar is the suggested way to go. Grab yourself a familiar that's able to use UMD and have your familiar use all those wands and scrolls. Familiars almost all require a GM check for UMD as the rules around this are a bit vague.
Another suggestion is pick up a Wand of Shield. Use that in the first round of combat and then drop it.
Weapon: Elven Curve Blade is a 2handed weapon and can NOT be used with spell combat. As spell combat has a requirement of light or 1handed weapon and a free hand for the full round.
Feat: Power Attack. I feel this is a trap. Others like it. My issue is that you're already suffering a -2 to hit with spell combat and stacking more negitives to hit with a 3/4 BAB class is bad. While it is doable when you use Arcane Accuracy, you just don't have enough AP points to do it often enough to make it worth while.
I do have a Magus I play that doubles as a tank.
snip ...
Alrighty here we go:
- I am not sure what the composition of the group will be other than there will be one spellcaster, healer, and one rogue-like character. Although I have been advised that the spellcaster and the rogue will be able to dish out very impressive damage.
- I am aware that mage armour is not on their spell list. This is why I will be maxing out UMD.
- Cannot have a familiar with the bladebound archetype.
- Using, then dropping, the wand of shield is an excellent idea!
- I know that power attack can be a trap. I have it because I love the idea of an elf power attacking with a giant rapier.:p Also, it will prove handy for the lower level, low AC, cannon fodder. Although if it proves to be to much of a detriment to the character I shall replace it with something else.
- I like the tripping idea along with enlarge person. The real issue is that I must use an elven curveblade due to background/RP related choices.
Bigtuna wrote: 1) Don't think you can add agile to the black blade - so you really want dervish dance and a schimitar
2) magical liniage + intenficied is a class feature for the magus.
That's a forehead slapping moment! I cannot believe that a magus is not able to add additional enchantments to his black blade. I specifically remember reading that they are able to do so. To my utter dismay they cannot.:( That changes the build. Many thanks for pointing this out Bigtuna.
Slacker2010 wrote: For traits I wouldnt worry about Reactionary, Kensai is going to be giving you a boost to your Initiative and with your High DEX I dont think its needed.
You cant pick up Weapon Spec at level 5, You dont get fighter Training until level 7 and this is where you can pick it up. At level 5 I would take Craft Wondrous Items if your GM allows. This will give you alot of bang for your buck.
I had alot more to write till I realized your using a 2handed weapon. Are you stuck on this? Your going to lose a lot without being about to access Spell Combat (major class feature). If your not going to use Spell combat I would suggest and EK would be a better Option.
Based on the above input I will have to revise my build. Please see below for updated character build.
Thefurmonger wrote: Heh, Just saw this thread.
I actually am currently playing a LvL 9 (8 kensai, bladebound magus/1 unarmed fighter)
And he works as the party tank.
snip ...
Thanks for sharing your build Thefurmonger. I will take a look as soon as I can.
darkwarriorkarg wrote: Another proposal (sketched out, not completed)
snip ...
That is an excellent build darkwarriorkarg! I might steal some of your ideas.:)
REVISED BUILD wrote: Race: elf (variant racial trait:Fleet Footed)
Favoured Class Option: Magus gains 1/6 of a new magus arcana
Class: Kensai Magus 10
Traits: Warrior of Old, Magical Lineage (Shocking Grasp)
Feats: - Lvl1 - Weapon Focus (B), Weapon Finesse
- Lvl3 - Greatweapon Spell Combat
- Lvl5 - Improved Initiative, Power Attack (B)
- Lvl7 - Intensified Spell
- Lvl9 - Weapon Specialization (elven curveblade)
Magus Arcana: - Lvl3 - Magus Arcana (?)
- Lvl6 - Magus Arcana (wand wielder), Bonus Magus Arcana (arcane accuracy)
- Lvl9 - Magus Arcana -> Critical Perfection
Spells (assume Int 20): - Lvl0 - Read Magic, Detect Magic, Arcane Mark, ?
- Lvl1 - Enlarge Person, Shield, Shocking Grasp x2, True Strike, Grease
- Lvl2 - Blur, Mirror Image, Frigid Touch, ?
- Lvl3 - Haste, Force Hook Charge, ?
- Lvl4 - Black Tentacles
Gear ideas: - +1 agile elven curveblade
- wand of shocking grasp
- wand of mage armor
- wand of shield
- pearls of power (1st lvl) x2
- belt of dexterity/constiution +2
- headband of vast intelligence +2
- ring of protection +2
- cloak of resistance +2
- amulet of natural armor +2
I am going for a very high initiative count and will be using the intensified shocking grasp trick.
Whew! There it is folks. Please have a look at the updated build. I would also like to say thanks again for all of the great ideas/help!
Meito wrote: Feats:
Lvl 1 - Weapon Focus (B), Weapon Finesse
Lvl 3 - Greatweapon Spell Combat
Lvl 5 - Improved Initiative, Power Attack (B)
Lvl 7 - Intensified Spell
Lvl 9 - Weapon Specialization (elven curveblade)
Dont know this feat, is this feat allowing you to use the Elven Curvedblade and still use Spell combat?
Slacker2010 wrote: Meito wrote: Feats:
Lvl 1 - Weapon Focus (B), Weapon Finesse
Lvl 3 - Greatweapon Spell Combat
Lvl 5 - Improved Initiative, Power Attack (B)
Lvl 7 - Intensified Spell
Lvl 9 - Weapon Specialization (elven curveblade)
Dont know this feat, is this feat allowing you to use the Elven Curvedblade and still use Spell combat? Thats exactly what the feat does Slacker2010. The feat can be found in Advanced Feats: Might of the Magus.
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While you can't technically add agile to a black blade, I think you and your DM could talk about it and make something work. Maybe he/she would let you sub out one of the other options on your ability to enhance your blade using arcane pool. It would need to be a reasonably powerful substitution like Keen or something equitable. Perhaps he/she would allow you to take a magus arcana that adds Agile as a weapon enhancement option like Devoted Blade and Ghost Blade.
For example, you could call it Graceful Blade. Whenever the magus enhances his weapon using his arcane pool, he may spend 1 additional point from his arcane pool to add either the agile, defending, or guardian property to the list of available options. The magus must be at least 6th level before selecting this arcana.
This would give you some nice tanking options as well by giving you access to the defending and guardian weapon properties. Obviously, this is a homebrew magus arcana, so you'd need to talk with your DM about it. I don't think it seems unreasonable tho.
You'll need DM approval for this, because the build is not legal. Specifically, in regards to your Elven Curved Blade. The Black Blade sidebar in Ultimate Magic (page 48) specifically states "A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane (see the Advanced Player’s Guide)."
An Elven Curved Blade, while able to be used with Weapon Finesse, is still a 2-handed weapon. Your feat does not change the weapon category of the Elven Curved Blade, and as such is not legal by the rules to be a Black Blade.
Still, with DM approval, anything goes. As a DM, I would allow it, though I would impose a penalty to balance it. I'd probably increase the Ego by 2, making the Black Blade's intelligence more arrogant and forceful since its unique even among its own kind.
@Dukai
Thats a pretty simple, yet well thought out fix to my problem! Although I will not be using the bladebound archetype I will wright down your new magus arcana so that I might use it for future characters.
@AspectVoid
Thanks for pointing that out, however. I already removed the archetype in my updated character build. Bit of a bummer that the elven curveblade is not a eligible choice for a black blade.:( Oh well, it does make the build a bit simpler.
Meito wrote: That's a forehead slapping moment! I cannot believe that a magus is not able to add additional enchantments to his black blade. I specifically remember reading that they are able to do so. To my utter dismay they cannot.:( That changes the build. Many thanks for pointing this out Bigtuna. At the very least, this is a point of contention. Its not 100% clear either way, so its worth checking with your GM on how they want to handle this. If they decide not to allow it, you may also want to see if they'd be willing to let you swap one of the options on the Magus' arcane pool enhancement list to Agile.
I'm of the opinion that you CAN add enchantments to a black blade. Its a magical weapon, and doesn't specifically change anything about the rules of adding abilities to existing magic weapons (i.e. pay the difference).
At the same time, doing so is of questionable benefit, at least long term. Yes, you can add some useful abilities that you otherwise cannot (like Agile or Spellstoring...although IMO spellstoring is better on a sidearm anyway so you can just drop it after you unload it). Yes, you can pay a gold cost to sort of accelerate the "progression" of the BB. But it still caps at +10 total and +5 enhancement, so at higher levels, you're going to be completely wasting a chunk of the Magus' ability to enhance the weapon via his Arcane Pool if you added anything to the BB yourself.
You do run into the odd issue that the earlier you choose to add enchantments, the cheaper it is (due to the BB's scaling enhancement bonus), but in reality this is a non-issue. A normal character just isn't going to be able to afford to take too much advantage of this at any given level.
For example, you may be able to afford to add a +1 equivalent enhancement to the blade prior to level 5 (when it goes to +2 on its own and you'd no longer be able to afford to boost it to +3), but you certainly won't be able to add much else until much later on, and again, you save some but not an unreasonable amount of gold in doing so.
Its just a question of paying gold early on to accelerate the blade's overall bonus at the price of effectively wasting that gold (or your class feature) later on.
MTCityHunter wrote: Meito wrote: That's a forehead slapping moment! I cannot believe that a magus is not able to add additional enchantments to his black blade. I specifically remember reading that they are able to do so. To my utter dismay they cannot.:( That changes the build. Many thanks for pointing this out Bigtuna. At the very least, this is a point of contention. Its not 100% clear either way, so its worth checking with your GM on how they want to handle this. If they decide not to allow it, you may also want to see if they'd be willing to let you swap one of the options on the Magus' arcane pool enhancement list to Agile.
I'm of the opinion that you CAN add enchantments to a black blade. Its a magical weapon, and doesn't specifically change anything about the rules of adding abilities to existing magic weapons (i.e. pay the difference).
At the same time, doing so is of questionable benefit, at least long term. Yes, you can add some useful abilities that you otherwise cannot (like Agile or Spellstoring...although IMO spellstoring is better on a sidearm anyway so you can just drop it after you unload it). Yes, you can pay a gold cost to sort of accelerate the "progression" of the BB. But it still caps at +10 total and +5 enhancement, so at higher levels, you're going to be completely wasting a chunk of the Magus' ability to enhance the weapon via his Arcane Pool if you added anything to the BB yourself.
You do run into the odd issue that the earlier you choose to add enchantments, the cheaper it is (due to the BB's scaling enhancement bonus), but in reality this is a non-issue. A normal character just isn't going to be able to afford to take too much advantage of this at any given level.
For example, you may be able to afford to add a +1 equivalent enhancement to the blade prior to level 5 (when it goes to +2 on its own and you'd no longer be able to afford to boost it to +3), but you certainly won't be able to add much else until much later on, and again, you save some but not... I agree with all of your points MTCityHunter. In fact we both came to the same conclusions regarding the long term effects of enchanting the black blade. I know that my DM would allow me to enchant the blade because, like you mentioned above, its not 100% clear. For now I will simply stick with a kensai magus. This makes things easier and I don't have to worry about getting DM approval.
@darkwarriorkarg
Spell Combat does not work with dervish dance.
Dervish Dance:
When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he
has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.
Since both spell combat and deverish dance require your off hand to be free (this includes a buckler sheild, cetus, gauntlet, and etc that are straped to that hand but not thorn bracers that are strapped to your forearms and act as shields or weapons.
For all intetense and purposes your spell is counted as a weapon. Its the same reason you can not weild a two handed weapon. The off hand is not free and is supporting your weapon. So as a dervish dancer, he could use the scimatar to attack with as long as he is not using spell combat because his off hand is used to keep balance. He can not two heand the scimitar either for extra damage because that also removes the dervish dance ability. When he goes into spell combat mode, he loses his dex to hit and damage with the scimitar but can cast any spell that last 1 action or less.
The better weapon for a tank magus is a war trident because it has reach, is a one handed slashing weapon and is not considered a polearm because you do not get the standard -5 to hit with it in melee next to you at the cost of an exotic proficiency slot unlike a normal trident. It also meets the quantification for the black blade because it does peircing and slashing damage.
So from ten feet away your stabbing them, then casting in spellcombat without the fear of aoa or casting defenesive ((which gets ridiculously high at later levels on the concentration check at twice the spell level so that fighters have a chance at wailing in them and not getting vaporized into dust.
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Arise
Arise and serve thy master.
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