The Main Problem with Fighters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Common ground is: when the GM says "we are playing pathfinder" what can you safely assume the rules are?


MrSin wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Oh, so it's bad design to not have a rule for every little detail in the game?
No one said that either. Cut it out!

I'm talking about homebrewing rules for when there are no rules. You called it bad design (that you have to do it). If you don't mean it, don't say it.


Marthkus wrote:
Common ground is: when the GM says "we are playing pathfinder" what can you safely assume the rules are?

That's cool, but has nothing to do with my posts.

I'm getting tired of this straw thrown at me.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Oh, so it's bad design to not have a rule for every little detail in the game?
No one said that either. Cut it out!
I'm talking about homebrewing rules for when there are no rules. You called it bad design. If you don't mean it, don't say it.

The GM making a ruling is not homebrew.

The GM making up mechanics would be homebrew.

Both are the actual rules of the game, but most of us are talking about the PF general rules. No one actually plays general pathfinder though. They play their GM's game which happens to resemble pathfinder.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Oh, so it's bad design to not have a rule for every little detail in the game?
No one said that either. Cut it out!
I'm talking about homebrewing rules for when there are no rules. You called it bad design (that you have to do it). If you don't mean it, don't say it.

I said that houserules are never an excuse for bad design.


Cool non-sequitor then.


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Okay guys, I think I know what we need to do? Ignore the argument Anarchy_Kanya is making in... 3.... 2... 1... NOW. Don't reply to that post. Its inviting an argument.

I agree Markthus. The point of having a roleplay system in the first place is to say "We are playing Pathfinder." In other words, "These are the set of rules that I as a GM and you as Players will follow. Disputes will be handled according to these rules because this is the system we said we'd play. If something is not in these rules, I will make something up."


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Adam B. 135 wrote:
If something is not in these rules, I will make something up."

Hey, that's what I said!


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
If something is not in these rules, I will make something up."
Hey, that's what I said!

And then argued. With people who weren't arguing against it. No one said you couldn't.


MrSin wrote:
And then argued. With people who weren't arguing against it. No one said you couldn't.

Sure I was. Except you had plenty to say how much of a bad design it is. Oh, sorry, you weren't even addressing my posts when quoting them, my bad.


Anarchy_Kanya wrote:
Except you had plenty to say how much of a bad design it is.

No one was saying homebrew is "bad design" because no one was talking about homebrew. We were talking about the rules Paizo provided.

Quote:
Oh, sorry, you weren't even addressing my posts when quoting them, my bad.

Sort of like how you're claiming that you weren't actually talking about anything anyone else was talking about even though you were replying to their posts?


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Guys, trying to reason is not working and has not been working for a while. The only choice is to ignore. I get the feeling that Anarchy is looking for an argument, not a discussion.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Guys, trying to reason is not working and has not been working for a while. The only choice is to ignore. I get the feeling that Anarchy is looking for an argument, not a discussion.

If you aren't contributing don't comment. You may disagree with his points, but your comments are harassment and bullying.

There is little reason to try to persuade everyone to join your cyber bullying idea of giving this guy the cold shoulder.


Perhaps s time to let this thread to slumber again for 2 or 3 months.


swoosh wrote:
Sort of like how you're claiming that you weren't actually talking about anything anyone else was talking about even though you were replying to their posts?

I was responding because I assumed they were actually addressing my points, but just used the wrong word or something. Some people do use homebrew and houserule interchangeably or throw it together into one category. Apparently they weren't. I realized that too late. My bad everyone.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:

I like the Fearsome Reputation feat. I'd take it if I knew I was going to be in a very heroic or very villainous campaign because I know I'd actually be the guy doing epic enough deeds to deserve the recognition the feat grants.

Ssalarn, are you going to try to get that feat printed somewhere? That'd be cool.

I've got like 20 of those, I just haven't had the venue for them.

I'm writing a class called the Iron Lord for Amora Games' "Libris Influxis" that has some overlap with the Fighter, maybe I'll see if I can't get Greg to let me do a couple archetypes and throw some feats like this in there as well, or do a follow up .pdf with that material in there if people like the materials I'm doing for the book.

Sounds pretty interesting. I am trying to find more info on this book now, but its hard to navigate the facebook to find it. Do you have any helpful links to provide?

The link you are looking for is here. It also has yet to be published. Still in process. ETA End of July for PDF.


IMHO the fighter (as the rogue) lacks built in magic.

Even the barbarian would not look so good if he didn't have any SU powers (like totems)


Amora Game wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Adam B. 135 wrote:

I like the Fearsome Reputation feat. I'd take it if I knew I was going to be in a very heroic or very villainous campaign because I know I'd actually be the guy doing epic enough deeds to deserve the recognition the feat grants.

Ssalarn, are you going to try to get that feat printed somewhere? That'd be cool.

I've got like 20 of those, I just haven't had the venue for them.

I'm writing a class called the Iron Lord for Amora Games' "Libris Influxis" that has some overlap with the Fighter, maybe I'll see if I can't get Greg to let me do a couple archetypes and throw some feats like this in there as well, or do a follow up .pdf with that material in there if people like the materials I'm doing for the book.

Sounds pretty interesting. I am trying to find more info on this book now, but its hard to navigate the facebook to find it. Do you have any helpful links to provide?

The link you are looking for is here. It also has yet to be published. Still in process. ETA End of July for PDF.

This book looks darn good. I even managed to sell my brother on it. Thank you for sharing that page! I really am excited to get my hands on those new classes. They really sound like they will have unique mechanics.

And Mr. Dodo, that may be true. The SU abilities that barbarians get are really really good.


I would like it if the Weapon focus and Weapon Specialization were a little better than a +1 and +2. I would think if they went up +1/4 levels it would help or in the case of Specialization a +2/4 levels and then the Greater versions would change it to +2/4 levels and +4/4 levels.

I also tend to look at the game more of a team effort, yes the wizard can do more damage but that is okay since the Wizard is unlikely to go into the dungeon with the fighter, and yes the Barbarian can get a massive bonus or the ranger can dish out tons of damage but there are limits to that whereas the fighter can do the same damage to most if not everything he comes across. The fighters job in the party is to prevent the monsters from getting to the weaker(i.e. less HP) characters like spellcasters.


Karyounigami: Fighters have no way of doing that. If this was some MMORPG we could have a fairly easy "Aggro" system, but in Pathfinder you have no ways of making moster fight you instead of someone else.

Yeah, you could build an awesome Polearm master, high dex, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and In Harm's Way, but you would still be nowhere near the idea of "protecting the spellcasters".

Also, spellcasters can usually protect themselves quite well from mid to high levels


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Rather than some silly Aggro thing, I'd like to see Combat Patrol expanded and working as an immediate action thing (not a full-round action!) so you can get in people's way with it.

Dark Archive

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Rather than some silly Aggro thing, I'd like to see Combat Patrol expanded and working as an immediate action thing (not a full-round action!) so you can get in people's way with it.

Pretty much this - as long as the Fighter can interpose between the attacker and the squishy he is partially doing his job (the next is putting the hurt on the attacker).

Honestly this should just be a maneuver that anyone could try (at risk) that can be bumped up/padded by a feat - but should exist as a default CM.


That would be against the policy "Fighters can't have nice things" :P

Combat Patrol as an immediate action would be pretty awesome!


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Heck, even if Combat Patrol were a standard action, it would immediately become more useable. The problem with combat patrol is that to make use of it, you have to be in a good position to use it the turn before you use it. That can be very difficult, especially if your combats already go by very quickly.


Aelryinth wrote:

Yes, they are indeed fundamentally different.

One of those main differences is that fighters were immensely stronger within the rules of the game.

And Tucker's Kobolds weren't dangerous if you knew how to play. I continually goggle at the idea that 10th level characters couldn't take them apart. A simple summoned elemental of ANY of the elements would have destroyed them right inside their tunnels. A fireball detonating in their tunnels under 1e Rules would likely have filled every little crawlspace with 10d6 of flame and cooked them all. A Reduced mage surrounded in a Wall of Fire in sphere form guided by wizard eye and flying could have hurtled through their little tunnels and hunted them down like rats.

==Aelryinth

I know I'm a little late on this reply, but I found it humorous enough I felt I needed to do so.

It's pretty amusing that in a thread about Fighter problems, every solution you give to Tucker's Kobolds is Magical rather than Fighter Tactical

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Tucker's Kobolds were an adventuring party problem. That included spellcasters.

Tucker himself was an army guy with a great grasp on tactics. That's why the kobolds were so effective...they fought smart using mundane tactics. They held the ground, they picked the time and they picked the enemies to fight...you can't GET any better tactically.

Mundane tactics in no way prepare you for what spellcasters can do, especially medieval level stuff.

If you restrict yourself to what fighters can do...yeah, they were awesome. One cloudkill later, however, and you wonder what the fuss was all about.

==Aelryinth


One thing also that changed into 2nd Ed. was the acquisition of magic weapons, used to be that the best and most common magic weapons were mainly the ones fighters can use, now with the buying of magic weapons/items at the magic mart that is no longer an issue.

My personal pet hate is matamagic rods - why let the most powerful classes in the game effectively BUY feats?


Mr. Dodo wrote:

Karyounigami: Fighters have no way of doing that. If this was some MMORPG we could have a fairly easy "Aggro" system, but in Pathfinder you have no ways of making moster fight you instead of someone else.

Yeah, you could build an awesome Polearm master, high dex, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still and In Harm's Way, but you would still be nowhere near the idea of "protecting the spellcasters".

Also, spellcasters can usually protect themselves quite well from mid to high levels

If the monster has to get through the fighter to get to the wizard then you are forcing a fight and protecting the weaker characters...I wasn't talking about abilitys or powers I am talking tactics.


The 'tactics' of which you speak only work in tight conditions.

That works fine for standard dungeon delves, but some of us prefer a game in wide open spaces.

Paizo Employee Designer

kyrt-ryder wrote:

The 'tactics' of which you speak only work in tight conditions.

That works fine for standard dungeon delves, but some of us prefer a game in wide open spaces.

They also become drastically less viable as the levels go on. WHen enemies start gaining access to special movement modes like teleportation, burrow, climb, fly, etc. they don't have to walk past you to get at the caster, they just ignore you and maul the squishier-but-probably-more-dangerous-in-the-long-run guy.


Ssalarn wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

The 'tactics' of which you speak only work in tight conditions.

That works fine for standard dungeon delves, but some of us prefer a game in wide open spaces.

They also become drastically less viable as the levels go on. WHen enemies start gaining access to special movement modes like teleportation, burrow, climb, fly, etc. they don't have to walk past you to get at the caster, they just ignore you and maul the squishier-but-probably-more-dangerous-in-the-long-run guy.

Earthglide... pretty much the bane of most "tank" builds...


Ssalarn wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

The 'tactics' of which you speak only work in tight conditions.

That works fine for standard dungeon delves, but some of us prefer a game in wide open spaces.

They also become drastically less viable as the levels go on. WHen enemies start gaining access to special movement modes like teleportation, burrow, climb, fly, etc. they don't have to walk past you to get at the caster, they just ignore you and maul the squishier-but-probably-more-dangerous-in-the-long-run guy.

That never should have become common. There should probably be no teleporters that don't teleport as a spell (not an SLA and especially not ever an at will one, actually casting spells like a dragon or at least using ki like a monk) Martial screwing abilities shouldn't be handed out to every Tom, Dick, and Gothmog. Fly should be special with only a few classics like dragons, manticores, and eyrines having both flight and ranged attacks. Burrow should be kept slower than PCs move and so loud it can't be missed. Climb and Swim speeds are probably environmentally limited enough to not need special care for their rarity.

There's only one rust monster rather than having every abberation eat metal. If you need a special monster to shake up too consistent tactics it needs to be so rare that all the special monsters combined are well less than half of all encounters. Otherwise they're just a drag.


But Flying... isn't really special. At all. Unless you consider "Can be achieved by a guy locked in a tower with nothing more then wax and some bird feathers." as your pinnacle of power. In which case, maybe the pinnacle of power needs rethought. I mean... Demons flying, teleporting and using magic to cause harm is pretty much par for the course demon behavior. But no really, do you expect high level threats to walk places like ordinary pedestrians? Cause that would be incredibly pedestrian.


Anzyr wrote:
But Flying... isn't really special. At all. Unless you consider "Can be achieved by a guy locked in a tower with nothing more then wax and some bird feathers." as your pinnacle of power. In which case, maybe the pinnacle of power needs rethought. I mean... Demons flying, teleporting and using magic to cause harm is pretty much par for the course demon behavior. But no really, do you expect high level threats to walk places like ordinary pedestrians? Cause that would be incredibly pedestrian.

No... I expect high level threats to walk places like a giant rampaging Tarrasque... killing everything... EEVVEEERRYYYYTTHIIINNGGGG.....

Paizo Employee Designer

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Atarlost wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


They also become drastically less viable as the levels go on. WHen enemies start gaining access to special movement modes like teleportation, burrow, climb, fly, etc. they don't have to walk past you to get at the caster, they just ignore you and maul the squishier-but-probably-more-dangerous-in-the-long-run guy.

That never should have become common. There should probably be no teleporters that don't teleport as a spell (not an SLA and especially not ever an at will one, actually casting spells like a dragon or at least using ki like a monk) Martial screwing abilities shouldn't be handed out to every Tom, Dick, and Gothmog. Fly should be special with only a few classics like dragons, manticores, and eyrines having both flight and ranged attacks. Burrow should be kept slower than PCs move and so loud it can't be missed. Climb and Swim speeds are probably environmentally limited enough to not need special care for their rarity.

Whether or not you personally think those movement modes should be common... they are. They're littered all over the Bestiaries, and really, they're necessary to offset the advantages that the casters are bringing to the party. The alternative, without completely remaking the game from the ground up, is that this a game about exterminators who deal with absolutely-obnoxious-but-not-actually-all-that-dangerous-if-you-know-what-y ou're-doing pests. Even then, Fighter is still the guy with a fly-swatter while full casters are the Orkin Man.

It's not about what threats should exist that the Fighter has to deal with, it's about what threats do exist. And in many cases the Fighter is the only guy who wasn't given all the tools necessary to deal with the world he lives in.


K177Y C47 wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
But Flying... isn't really special. At all. Unless you consider "Can be achieved by a guy locked in a tower with nothing more then wax and some bird feathers." as your pinnacle of power. In which case, maybe the pinnacle of power needs rethought. I mean... Demons flying, teleporting and using magic to cause harm is pretty much par for the course demon behavior. But no really, do you expect high level threats to walk places like ordinary pedestrians? Cause that would be incredibly pedestrian.
No... I expect high level threats to walk places like a giant rampaging Tarrasque... killing everything... EEVVEEERRYYYYTTHIIINNGGGG.....

Pretty much this. And it's not even kept at high level where it might conceivably belong. CR 5 Barbazu have at will greater teleport. CR 5! According to the CR guidelines a creature that could conceivably be used for a level 2 party has at will greater teleport.

And that's just from Bestiary 1. Bestiary 2 has the Zebub, which has at will greater teleport at CR 3. That's a merely hard encounter for a level 1 party.

I'm not against creatures teleporting. If they do so using the casting rules with the possibility of countering and failing concentration checks and have at least as many hit dice as a wizard would need to cast the spell, but giving at will teleportation to every pissant little fiend is ridiculous.

I cannot adequately express how stupid it is that a 4 HD CR 3 fiend can cast a 7th level spell as if it were a cantrip without tripping this forum's profanity filters. Repeatedly. And even then I'm not sure English profanity is adequate.


Yeah, pretty mutch this.

Also fighters are the worst class againsts ambushes. (A good ambush can be a pain for a full spellcaster)

Monks, Barbarians and Rogues get Uncanny Dodge and Perception as class skills, what do fighters get? Tower shield proficency?


kyrt-ryder wrote:

The 'tactics' of which you speak only work in tight conditions.

That works fine for standard dungeon delves, but some of us prefer a game in wide open spaces.

It doesn't matter what environment a fighter is in the fighters job is the same as is the rouges and the wizards and the clerics. the fighters part of the party is to prevent or slow down a monster from getting to the wizard and to provide a stable person for the rouge to get there flank on with, the rouge job is to find and disable traps, open doors and flank with the fighter and help them dispose of threats, the clerics job is to keep people standing and maybe just drop some baddys along with the fighter and rouge, and last but deffinitly not least the wizard should provide mass damage and boost to the party. yes there are lost of options that you can choose but the game isn't based on any one class doing all of the jobs of the others. it should be a team effort since that is what the CRs are based off of and the whole game is based off of in fact.

and just a FYI tactics work in wide open spaces too.


Ssalarn wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


They also become drastically less viable as the levels go on. WHen enemies start gaining access to special movement modes like teleportation, burrow, climb, fly, etc. they don't have to walk past you to get at the caster, they just ignore you and maul the squishier-but-probably-more-dangerous-in-the-long-run guy.

That never should have become common. There should probably be no teleporters that don't teleport as a spell (not an SLA and especially not ever an at will one, actually casting spells like a dragon or at least using ki like a monk) Martial screwing abilities shouldn't be handed out to every Tom, Dick, and Gothmog. Fly should be special with only a few classics like dragons, manticores, and eyrines having both flight and ranged attacks. Burrow should be kept slower than PCs move and so loud it can't be missed. Climb and Swim speeds are probably environmentally limited enough to not need special care for their rarity.

Whether or not you personally think those movement modes should be common... they are. They're littered all over the Bestiaries, and really, they're necessary to offset the advantages that the casters are bringing to the party. The alternative, without completely remaking the game from the ground up, is that this a game about exterminators who deal with absolutely-obnoxious-but-not-actually-all-that-dangerous-if-you-know-what-y ou're-doing pests. Even then, Fighter is still the guy with a fly-swatter while full casters are the Orkin Man.

It's not about what threats should exist that the Fighter has to deal with, it's about what threats do exist. And in many cases the Fighter is the only guy who wasn't given all the tools necessary to deal with the world he lives in.

so the wizard just isn't there? or having an extra round or two to cast spells without being attacked is bad? the fighter doesn't have to do all the work on there own nor does the wizard again it is a team effort.

and the Orkin man can run out of poison but the fly-swatter works all the time(kind of like a fighter, fancy that)

Paizo Employee Designer

Karyouonigami wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:


Whether or not you personally think those movement modes should be common... they are. They're littered all over the Bestiaries, and really, they're necessary to offset the advantages that the casters are bringing to the party. The alternative, without completely remaking the game from the ground up, is that this a game about exterminators who deal with absolutely-obnoxious-but-not-actually-all-that-dangerous-if-you-know-what-y ou're-doing pests. Even then, Fighter is still the guy with a fly-swatter while full casters are the Orkin Man.

It's not about what threats should exist that the Fighter has to deal with, it's about what threats do exist. And in many cases the Fighter is the only guy who wasn't given all the tools necessary to deal with the world he lives in.

so the wizard just isn't there? or having an extra round or two to cast spells without being attacked is bad? the fighter doesn't have to do all the work on there own nor does the wizard again it is a team effort.

and the Orkin man can run out of poison but the fly-swatter works all the time(kind of like a fighter, fancy that)

Funny thing is though, generally the cloud of ant poison does the job right the first time. The fly swatter only gets em one at a time and can't track them down to their source....

You know what, I tried to take that analogy too far.

Here's the problems with your thoughts:

1) You assume the Fighter is capable of buying the caster extra rounds to cast. Not terribly true after about 5th level, earlier if you have crafty enemies.

2) The Fighter actually does run on a limited resource: Hit points. Once those puppies are gone he is freaking done, possibly forever. He has no way to refresh or restore them, and any ability he may have to actually protect the casters generally involves spending them.

3) Casters have much better options for protection than a slow, weak-willed blender who's one failed save away from joining the enemy. And if they really want one of those, they can usually whip one up for themselves.

The Fighter after the first 6 levels of play is, at best, a handy tool for the caster to have on hand, basically a self-powered beatstick. At worst, he is a liability to the party, draining their resources and serving as a constant potential threat for the first enemy that specializes in compulsion or possession to turn against them.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post and the replies to it. Leave personal attacks out of the conversation.


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I think the main problem is that of feeling.

The fighter feels like he is on a treadmill in every aspect of his kit from AC, saves, to-hit, and even damage. You're just trying to keep up with the monsters.

Some skills are treadmill-like, especially the opposed checks, but many of them just get better over time and allow you to do more and more things.

Spells have the least amount of treadmill-like style play to them. Sure DC and damage is very much on a treadmill, but as levels increase you become less dependent on either of these as new options open up.

This is the core problem with the fighter, they never really get stronger. Any encounter that their hard-earned abilities can easily handle is one that anyone can handle.

You need a big heavy damage guy for high level encounters and the fighter is the most straightforward class to doing that, but that doesn't solve the above issue. Making a fighter that feels like it is gaining options over-time and becoming stronger requires high levels of system mastery and adjusted perspective. Much like the rogue, for many players this extra effort is just not worth it when the same level of thought can be applied to many other classes to achieve similar and subjectively better results.

The fighter does have merits though. The only resource they need to manage is HP. This can lead to a very relaxed style of play, where you can play the character more by feel than carefully crunched mechanics. When playing with friends just to have a good time after a long week of work, this can be cathartic. But should your desires change, and you suddenly want a more high cerebral experience that requires a lot of thought and planning, the fighter has limited options in that regard, not zero options, but limited.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed an unhelpful post. This was pretty unnecessary.


Fighters get weaker as they gain levels relative to their challenges. At first level they are the strongest that they will ever be, relative to the CR of their enemies.

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