|
Wow, if this was an attempt to restate my comment, I don't know whether to be more impressed by your sheer brazen disingenuousness in selective quoting or to be deeply concerned about your reading comprehension Roberta. This was a direct response to the single example of combat feats, and completely ignores the larger and more comprehensive case I've been making for, oh, the last three or four pages, about using general feats for non-combat purposes to expand options. You know, that last sentence you quoted but decided to entirely ignore in your snark?"Fighters have versatility. For example, normally, they can hit things for direct hit point damage with a sword. But if they spend a feat (and then an additional feat every five levels), they can hit things for direct hit point damage with two swords. Or if they spend another feat, they can hit things for direct hit point damage with a Japanese sword. However, they can still hit things for direct hit point damage with one non-Japanese sword if they want to, so they really have a lot of options available."Coriat, feats can do both. They can specialize or they can expand flexibility. Sometimes they can do both at the same time. Taking TWF specializes a character towards fighting with two weapons, but it expands the character's options because they don't HAVE to fight that way, they can still fight the way they always have, but now they have the option to fight a new way if they want.
Taking feats that allow entirely new capabilities, such as crafting feats, feats which allow more skills or feats which provide certain proficiencies, pretty much are entirely feats which increase flexibility.
The snarky but was unnecessary, but she is still right.
Feat chains, unlike spells or rage powers, force a character down a path of specialization. They get better and better at one particular thing, and thus keep being left behind in their capacity at...
Rage Powers take you down a road of specialization as well. There is a rage chain that you godown of you want to do a certain thing. You have to take certain rage chains if you want Pounce.
Feats actually work both ways, that is the beauty of the mechanic. You can take certain feats to specialize in an area or you can take multiple types of feats to be versatile.
Bomanz@ Can only speak for myself so here is what I think.
So, the last half of 2012 seemed to be about WHY MONKS SUCK.
That’s because up until December 4, 2012 they did suck.
December 2012 and most of January seemed to be about WHY PALADIN ALIGNMENT REQUIREMENTS SUCK, and ways to make it not suck.
There has always been a “Why Paladin Alignment Requirements Suck” or a “Why ALIGNMENT Requirements Suck”.
There will always be a “Why Paladin Alignment Requirements Suck” or a “Why ALIGNMENT Requirements Suck”.So what?
Early February had 2 or 3 good threads about WHY ROGUES SUCK.
Threads with that topic has been around since 3.0. Reason is simple: Rogues do Suck.
Now, here we are talking about WHY FIGHTERS SUCK.
I’m not. I don’t think fighters suck. What do I think? This:
The fighter we have isn't very good at anything but murder, and even then his skillset is pretty limited.
Notice that “very good at murder” does not equal “best at murder”. Best at murder as in "the class with the highest DPR".
I’m not saying that the problem with the fighter is that his DPR isn’t high enough. Nor do I say it isn’t a problem. So what is the problem?Ashiel has already put it in words: they kind of fail as a generic "build it yourself" class.
Whelp, I'll have to agree with some of you guys, the problem is with hitting things. However, the thing being hit is a horse, and the ones doing the hitting is the messageboard population and I'm 95% certain that the horse is pretty much dead or in a persistent vegetative state.
Are casters more than a step above martials? Yes.
Are fighters difficult to keep relevant? Yes.
CAN IT BE DONE? Yes.
HAVE I DONE IT BEFORE? YES.
The problem is that there is no method of fixing this power imbalance that does not actually require the release of a hypothetical Pathfinder 2nd Edition. Fighter abilities and the magic system would need a massive overhaul.
These arguments crop up whenever the words 'fighter' or 'wizard' are mentioned by anyone and rapidly devolve into deceased equine abuse by the same six or seven people. Games are not a perfect system of balance. Yes, some classes are more powerful and versatile than others. Yes, they need to be balanced out in some way but true balance is all but unachievable unless you want to play DnD 4e.
I love playing fighters and I love it when my fighters manage to be applicable outside of combat or even adaptable in combat. It was a sad day when I had to admit to myself that one of my self-satisfied gaming buddies was right and that casters were the more effective choice. I certainly wish this were not the case. I wish I did not feel that I had to play a certain class to be relevant but the problem will likely not be fixed in this edition without errata-ing on a massive scale and that would frankly cause more problems than it solves. As it stands, I'd be happier if the gap did not widen any further.
Fighters are indeed, only good at the art of murder, and unless they specialize highly in a weapon with a reliable supply of tailored upgrades. the barbarian is going to heavily outdamage them.
gloves of dueling are not an advantage over the barbarian. the barbarian has an equivalent in the form of a furious weapon.
with the beast totem line, and reckless abandon, the barbarian is actually paying off his own AC boost as a sacrifice to boost his to hit.
13th level, where fighter has greater specialization and armor training 3.
+5 to hit, +5 to weapon based CMB for a limited series of manuevers +7 to damage and 4 feats spent
13th level barbarian with rage, beast totem and reckless abandon
+7 to hit, +7 to CMB and +6 to damage at the cost of -4 to touch AC and to CMD and 4 rage powers spent. a 5th could provide +4 to all saves.
both have an item that could raise these by 2.
Barbarian has the better deal.
Rage Powers take you down a road of specialization as well. There is a rage chain that you godown of you want to do a certain thing. You have to take certain rage chains if you want Pounce. .
False.
Rage Powers do not take you down a road of specialization as well and with the exception of the totem powers most rage powers, or at least the more popular powers do not require any prereq (with the exception of level in some cases).Let’s look at some of the more popular powers [edit]:
Sure, Knockdown and Strength Surge is a really cool and powerful combination just, but you don’t have to pick them both. The mechanics doesn’t force you down a road of specialization. Nor do you have to take Combat Expertise or have Int 13 to pick any of them.
Funny you should bring up Punch in a post where you also claim that rage powers lead to a road of specialization. Especially since the best totem chain, unlike the let’s say weapon specialization chain, doesn’t lead to a road of specialization.
Let’s look at the weapon specialization chain vs. the best totem chain.
Greater weapon specialization isn’t one feat it is at least 4 feats.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Specialization with selected weapon, 12th-level fighter. Add exotic weapon prof. if you want such a weapon.
The only purpose with this feat chain is to increase damage, but only with one selected weapon and the only thing it adds to versatility is that the bonus from Weapon Focus and greater Weapon Focus adds to CMB with selected weapon. And as I have pointed out earlier, feats and feat chains (usually) don’t let you do stuff that you normally can’t do, they only improve what you already can do.
Now rage powers and rage power chains usually work differently. If there are any chains they are usually only 2 or 3 rage powers, they usually don’t come with prereqs, and lot of rage powers let you do stuff you normally can’t to, and most popular rage chains don’t lead you down a road of specialization. If they do they grant you the ability to do stuff you normally can’t do.
Let’s look at Pounce since you brought it up:
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains two claw attacks. Some say it’s a rage power tax, but at lower levels it can come in handy. But I agree, it is a tax just like Combat Expertise but without any prereqs.
Beast Totem (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains a +1 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the barbarian has attained.
Prereq: A barbarian must have the lesser beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.
This power has nothing to do with claw attack or damage output. It is a boost to AC. A boost that stacks with enhancement bonus to the natural armor. So claiming it takes you down a road of specialization simply isn’t true.
Beast Totem, Greater (Su): While raging, the barbarian gains the pounce special ability, allowing her to make a full attack at the end of a charge. In addition, the damage from her claws increases […]and the claws deal ×3 damage on a critical hit.
Prereq: A barbarian must have the beast totem rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 10th level to select this rage power.
OK. So now the damage from your claws increase and crit is x3. Also you can now pounce. You can move and full attack. More attacks means more damage but also means you can use some Combat Maneuvers and the end of the charge. Funny and powerful especially if you also have Knockdown and Strength Surge. Pounce does not only grant you more damage output, it also add to versatility.
Feats actually work both ways, that is the beauty of the mechanic. You can take certain feats to specialize in an area or you can take multiple types of feats to be versatile.
I’m not sure what you mean by both ways, but if you mean that you can take some feats to specialize and some feats to be versatile I agree, but it comes with a prize. Especially for the fighter.
Rage powers on the other hand do it better, are more versatile and usually comes without prereqs.
If the fighter gives up the Weapon Specialization chain he isn’t much of a fighter and the Specialization comes with a prize so does taking feats to be versatile. Simple reason is that there is hardly anything in the class that grants versatility or the damage output that rangers, barbarians and paladins get. Fighters have to buy that with feats, feats that most classes have access to. The few “fighter feats” that exist isn’t really that fantastic and they, unlike rage power or spells, are not that many.
Not many fighter feats mean not many options and it also means not feeling unique.
All this said: The fighter isn't a crappy class, far from it.
the thing being hit is a horse, and the ones doing the hitting is the messageboard population and I'm 95% certain that the horse is pretty much dead or in a persistent vegetative state.
LOL!
Still if, you got nothing better to do. At least it's not hurting the horse ;-)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
List of fighter feats, as in fighters only. Please inform me if I have missed any feat or if any other class can get access to any of these feats.
1. Pin Down – Fighter only
2. Disrupting Shot – Fighter only
3. Shield Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
4. Greater Shield Specialization - Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
5. Point-Blank Master - Can be taken by Ranger too.
6. Critical Mastery – Fighter only
7. Disruptive – can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and the ever so popular Arcane Duelist Bard archetype gets this for free.
8. Spellbreaker - Can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
9. Greater Shield Focus - can be taken by Ranger and the Cleric Crusader Archetype too.
10. Greater Weapon Focus – battle Oracle and the Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
11. Penetrating Strike- Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
12. Greater Penetrating Strike - Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
13. Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
14. Greater Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
Anyone noticed that unlike Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin the fighter hasn’t any abilities that can be activated as a swift action, immediate action or move action. This pretty much means that Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin (and a lot of other classes) get more actions per round than the fighter.
edit:
Worth repeating.
Ultimate Combat:
Fighter feat: 1
Paladin spells: 31
Ranger spells: 32
Wizard/ Sorcerer spells: 97
And Barbarians? I counted 32 new rage powers.
|
|
Rage Powers take you down a road of specialization as well. There is a rage chain that you godown of you want to do a certain thing. You have to take certain rage chains if you want Pounce. .False.
Rage Powers do not take you down a road of specialization as well and with the exception of the totem powers most rage powers, or at least the more popular powers do not require any prereq (with the exception of level in some cases).Let’s look at some of the more popular powers [edit]:
Clear Mind- no prereq except level
Come and Get Me – no prereq except level
Good For What Ails You - no prereq.
Increased Damage Reduction: damage reduction class feature
Knockback – no prereq.
Knockdown - no prereq
Reckless Abandon – no prereq.
Roused Anger - no prereq
Strength Surge - no prereq
Superstition - no prereq.
Unexpected Strik – no prereq
Witch Hunter – Prereq. Superstition. WH grants a bonus to damage and Superstition grants a bonus to saves. Down a road of specialization? Hardly.
Spell Sunder – Prereq. Superstition and Witch Hunter rage power and be at least 6th level. Prereqs again but that’s fair. This is a silly powerful and fun ability. One of those things that let’s you do stuff that normally can’t be done. Sure, Knockdown and Strength Surge is a really cool and powerful combination just, but you don’t have to pick them both. The mechanics doesn’t force you down a road of specialization. Nor do you have to take Combat Expertise or have Int 13 to pick any of them.
Funny you should bring up Punch in a post where you also claim that rage powers lead to a road of specialization. Especially since the best totem chain, unlike the let’s say weapon specialization chain, doesn’t lead to a road of specialization.
Let’s look at the weapon specialization chain vs. the best totem chain.
Greater weapon specialization isn’t one feat it is at least 4 feats.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Greater...
I want to touch on the part about buying things with feats. Thank God somebody finally understands the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature. That is what they are for, they are there to buy feats. A fighter can use all of his bonus feats to focus on combat and leave his regulars to purchase other types, if he so chooses.
|
|
So, you're complaining that a Fighters feats, in the end, are about him hitting stuff with sharp / blunt / pointy objects in slightly different ways. It's kind of what they do. They fight.
This is kind of like complaining that the Wizards and Sorcerors spells and feats mostly all end being about magic. Damn, what a shock.
The difference being that magic is MUCH less narrowly confined.
Hitting things is just hitting things. It works good if you need something dead. Not so much for anything else.
Magic on the other hand is anything from "I do electricity damage", "I summon an Angel to fight for me", "I take over his mind", "I create matter from nothing", "I teleport the party across the continent" and much much more.
It's like saying the guy who knows intimately the workings of a single type of wood shouldn't be jealous of the guy who has intimate knowledge of every type of existing material, including that type of wood because they're essentially the same thing.
Show me this amazing scout then. And he better be able to do something BESIDES scout around (Just Stealth and Perception).
Didn't require a heavy feat investment at all so that myth has been debunked as well. I was actually able to create a fantastic scout, have a nice AC, great to hit, good damage, and be able to play around with a concept of using a dueling sword. I still have a feat available with that build and I could swap a few things around to be better in other areas. I took Stealthy but I could easily give it up and drop my Stealth to a +29 instead of a 31 which still gets the job done. I could dropy Cha to am 8 and up my Str to a 13 so I can take Power Attack to add more damage. With my un chosen feat I could take Combat Expertise to add to my AC of things got rough.I'm afraid you have been proven wrong and it's time to admit defeat.
All you need to be a scout is Stealth and Perception so don't start moving the goalposts before you've even seen it.
The build is in the multi functional fighter thread I started in Advice. I can already tell it won't make a difference because you won't own up and admit to anything.
You can ignore the last part about the skills on the build, I don't get 8 more. Also, all of those feats are from the CRB, I didn't even shop around.
I want to touch on the part about buying things with feats. Thank God somebody finally understands the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature. That is what they are for, they are there to buy feats. A fighter can use all of his bonus feats to focus on combat and leave his regulars to purchase other types, if he so chooses.
I don’t think we agree on what “finally understands the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature” means.
So force the fighter to invest all his bonus feats, and some of the others, on combat just so he can keep up with the others and the few that he got left he can pick skill focus or whatever is the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature?And he still doesn’t have any non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks. No spells, no cool rage powers, no lay on hands, no set of great class skills or no feat that let him buy more skill points, no feats besides Iron will and greater Iron that lets him improve is will saves, no feats that improve is mobility.
Sure he can boost diplomacy and become a diplomat. He can pump sense motive too so he can tell if they lie and boost stealth and perception. I’m not denying this.
But skills can only do so much once you reach a certain level and the fighter only got 2 skills per level.
There is a reason many players pick extra rage powers as a feat. There are so many rage powers that are so much better than any feat out there. And they like the Ranger and Paladin, the Barbarian don’t need to invest heavily in combat feats unless they want to play an archer. Power attack and Improved crit is enough. Barbarians probably wants to add combat reflexes and Raging Vitality.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Then I would suggest you get yourself a pair of glasses or a better prescription.I'm afraid you have been proven wrong and it's time to admit defeat.We have different ideas on what constitutes proof. All I see is you disagreeing, not proving anything.
Join us in the church of the great fighter, where faith alone can sustain you in the face of evidence and reason.
@shallowsoul:
Let me spell it out. There is nothing unique about the fighter except two things.
It is a class that comes with a clean sheet. It’s true other classes can come with clean sheet depending on your backstory on how you envision you character, but fighter (and possibly the rogue) is the one class that comes with an almost clean sheet.
It is a class where a player doesn’t have to worry about “ability on or ability of”, unless the fighter loses his weapon.
Any class can be a diplomat. Any class can be a scout. As Irontruth put it in another thread:
My point is that the class of Fighter does not bring anything unique or interesting to non-combat situations, and having SOMETHING would be neat.
The other full BAB core classes can contribute to combat and offer interesting to non-combat situations without needing one feat per level. Read the last part again: without needing one feat per level. And they are superior at it as well.
I seriously that Pazio can fix the fighter without creating Pathfinder 2.Just create some good fighter feats that let you “build it yourself”.
Feats that let you ignor prereqs.
Feats that grants you more skills and grants you more class skills.
Feats that lets you get will saves or reflex saves as good saves.
Feats that let you grant bonuses out of combat or help with healing/curing.
Feats that grants you pounce or Dance of Fury (dervish dancer archetype)
A Feat or trait that let you rebuild you fighter. Say my fighter does not want or need tower shield or any shield. Let the fighter swap it for something else.
Feats that lets fighters be swashbucklers.
A Feat that let's the fighter get on feat chain for free.
Etc.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Coriat, feats can do both. They can specialize or they can expand flexibility. Sometimes they can do both at the same time. Taking TWF specializes a character towards fighting with two weapons, but it expands the character's options because they don't HAVE to fight that way.
That might seem like the two-weapon fighting feat is a flexible power, but when you think about it this resides only in a fairly illusionary/superficial form of versatility.
A flexible power is not a power that you can either choose to use or not to. That, instead, describes many if not most powers.
A flexibile power or ability is useful in a broad range of different circumstances.
To illustrate:
C3PO is a flexible language tool. His language ability is useful in a broad range of different situations. You're going to get at least some use out of him in pretty much any translation-related situation.
I have a friend who can read cuneiform. This is not a flexible talent. It is a hyper-specialized scholarly ability useful in only a narrow range of circumstances. It's not "flexible" simply because he can choose not to read cuneiform if he doesn't want to.*
Or to illustrate again, the characteristic of my laptop here that makes it a versatile tool is not that it has an on/off switch. It is, rather, the immense array of different tasks I can use it for at a moment's notice while it is on.
*and I apologize to him because this isn't the first time I've used this talent of his as an example of hyper-specialization. Sorry! I still think it's cool!)
List of fighter feats, as in fighters only. Please inform me if I have missed any feat or if any other class can get access to any of these feats.
1. Pin Down – Fighter only
2. Disrupting Shot – Fighter only
3. Shield Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
4. Greater Shield Specialization - Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
5. Point-Blank Master - Can be taken by Ranger too.
6. Critical Mastery – Fighter only
7. Disruptive – can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and the ever so popular Arcane Duelist Bard archetype gets this for free.
8. Spellbreaker - Can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
9. Greater Shield Focus - can be taken by Ranger and the Cleric Crusader Archetype too.
10. Greater Weapon Focus – battle Oracle and the Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
11. Penetrating Strike- Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
12. Greater Penetrating Strike - Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
13. Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
14. Greater Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.Anyone noticed that unlike Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin the fighter hasn’t any abilities that can be activated as a swift action, immediate action or move action. This pretty much means that Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin (and a lot of other classes) get more actions per round than the fighter.
I'm sure I'm still forgetting some but:
Every fighter feat can eventually be taken by the magus and the eldritch knight, too (unless there are some who are too high level as prerequisite)
But the same is true for ways to get rage and rage powers. Yet it shows that no feat is really fighter only.
7) One Inquisition (or could be a domain or both) gives disruptive as bonus feat
13) zen archers get it and everyone with quaterstaff master. The staff magus gets quaterstaff master at 3rd level so he could get weapon spec quaterstaff at 1st level, too. (*or earlier if you manage to get weapon focus quaterstaff)
The reason for the above is as follows: With quaterstaff master you don't need fighter levels for weapon spec quaterstaff. And the prereq is fighter 4th, not fighter and 4th.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Coriat, feats can do both. They can specialize or they can expand flexibility. Sometimes they can do both at the same time. Taking TWF specializes a character towards fighting with two weapons, but it expands the character's options because they don't HAVE to fight that way.
Not true. All TWF does is reduce the penalties for using two weapons. A 1st level Commoner can fight with two weapons. He'll just be really bad at it.
@Umbranus.
Thanks for your post.
My main point isn’t that some fighter feats can be picked by other classes, but that there are only 13 of them and they are not really fantastic. Although that Rangers and barbarians can pick some of them (which isn’t much of a problem) is interesting since fighters can’t cast ranger spells, pick favored enemies, have more skill points or use rage powers, use lay on hands, etc.
My main point is that the fighter does not bring anything unique or interesting to the table and that the list of unique options – as in number of fighter feats - is both very limited and not very unique. Picking the Weapon Specialization chain so you can kill something isn’t unique. Not because some classes or archetypes can pick some of the feast, but because the other full BAB classes can kill stuff too well enough or better without the need of that chain. Again, I’m not saying DPR is the main problem.
|
|
All you need to be a scout is Stealth and Perception so don't start moving the goalposts before...
I know the other guy said it too, so I don't just want to single you out. But my tank can scout, based on your prerequisite lol. I don't have stealth but I hav a ton of perception, hp and a potion of invisibility, expeditious retreat and fly.
Wouldn't a scout actually have some knowledge skills so the knew exactly what they saw and could share weaknesses and strengths with their allies, linguistics to understand their conversations in undercommon or goblinoid.
My tank can scout and tell you the number and location of the enemy force, but if I am building a party, I want a scout who can tell me the size, location, makeup, and tactics of the enemy force and even suggest ways to bypass them if our resources are low.
|
|
Would moving weapon training up to start at 1st level, make armor training all about acp and heavy armor movement (letting a fighter start with full movement speed in medium,which I understand would lead to a s-ton of 1 level fighter dips) and upping base skills to 4 help.
So you'd be getting a +6ab/+3dam before STR or DEX at level 4 with your favorite weapon and move at full speed in plate. And at level 5 you could start weapon training on your secondary weapon (range for melee, melee for range) and now you've got a pretty versatile combat, with enough skills to become a scout, a 2nd diplomat, a blacksmith, etc.
Would moving weapon training up to start at 1st level, make armor training all about acp and heavy armor movement (letting a fighter start with full movement speed in medium,which I understand would lead to a s-ton of 1 level fighter dips) and upping base skills to 4 help.
I'm not sure I understood the whole sentence correctly but from what I did understand: upping the skills would help, the rest would not really help because it is more or less all about combat which we agreed it fine as it is.
And on top it is just more of what the fighter already gets: boring + to hit and damage.
Feat which allow more skills? Can’t find any such Feat in the Core books (Core, APG, UC, UM, etc). If I have missed something I’ll be glad if you could link me to it.I imagine he means things like skill focus, Deceitful, etc. They're still pretty far on the low end though, in my opinion.
2 extra skill points on a class, after 20 levels, would be the equivalent of about 5 comparative feats (40 more Skill Points to spend, compared to +4 to two skills each, and this is assuming you like the matchups) and that's not until after the fighter divvies up 10 skill ranks to each of those to allow for the doubling. Not to mention, they can't take these with their bonus feats, so they've got to use their normal ones. That would use up half of their non-combat feats if they wanted to match a character with just 4+ skill ranks.
There is also a feat which allows you to take two additional traits. There are a slew of traits which give a +1 to a skill and make that skill a class skill, which is effectively a +4 to a skill. Using those traits you can really increase the out of combat skill options for any character, but fighters have more feats to play with.
Coriat, feats can do both. They can specialize or they can expand flexibility. Sometimes they can do both at the same time. Taking TWF specializes a character towards fighting with two weapons, but it expands the character's options because they don't HAVE to fight that way.Not true. All TWF does is reduce the penalties for using two weapons. A 1st level Commoner can fight with two weapons. He'll just be really bad at it.
The feat reduces the penalties such that it becomes a VIABLE option Tri. Sure anyone can do it without the feat but an option that is not viable isn't really an option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
20 Hunting FTW!
|
|
Would moving weapon training up to start at 1st level, make armor training all about acp and heavy armor movement (letting a fighter start with full movement speed in medium,which I understand would lead to a s-ton of 1 level fighter dips) and upping base skills to 4 help.I'm not sure I understood the whole sentence correctly but from what I did understand: upping the skills would help, the rest would not really help because it is more or less all about combat which we agreed it fine as it is.
And on top it is just more of what the fighter already gets: boring + to hit and damage.
Sorry was typing on an iPad on a crowded CTA this morning :D
But it seems you got the gist of what I was asking about.
It seems Fighters getting 4 skills per level would alleviate about 50% of the problem. I think eliminating bravery and giving fighters an Evasion/Stalwart style feature that works off of Fortitude, would be big as well, may cover an additional 40% of the problem. And an Ultimate Feats book or something similar that introduced TRUE FIGHTER ONLY Feats would solve the last 9% that's fixable, 1% is always going to be unhappy lol.
Semantics. You say that like you've never succeeded on a long shot before.
Sure, and that's why so many martial characters don't bother with any feats, enhancements or magical buffs which increase their attack bonuses because they can always roll a 20 FTW.
Which has nothing to do with TWF being an additional option the same as combat maneuvers.
OK, so TWF was a bad example I concede.
When it comes to combat I'm not even going to argue anymore that fighters can increase their options, fighters already have options in combat.
This whole conversation began as a discussion of how fighters can be more versatile out of combat. And I've given many examples of how fighters can use feats to do that.
The constant argument that because other classes can use feats that means that it doesn't make fighters more versatile is an argument that is absolutely incomprehensible to me. It doesn't matter HOW fighters can become more versatile, the issue was whether they could or could not. I think by now it's been definitively demonstrated multiple times by multiple people that they can.
The argument that it's harder and/or more expensive for a fighter to do it compared to other martial classes is a far more subjective argument. It might even be true, but saying that it is harder to make a versatile out of combat fighter than a versatile out of combat ranger is a much, much different thing than saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to make a versatile out of combat fighter.
In some people's minds the fact that it is harder or more expensive means that it's simply not worth doing, and that's fine, I can respect that. I don't agree with it, and I think the difference is far less than it is being described. Even if it were as big of a difference, it still comes down to flavor and when it comes down to flavor, then it's just a situational decision. I like the flavor of the grizzled ex-soldier with a grudge, or the highly trained and disciplined ex-sergeant or a number of other ex-soldier personalities. But I like the flavor of other classes too.
In some ways the fighter is more of a "blank slate" with fewer out of combat expectations so it can actually feel like you have more freedom building a fighter with skills than classes that have an expectation around their role. It can be surprising running into the fighter with a wand, or the charming, charismatic fighter. It's not usually very surprising running into the ranger who can track or the rogue who can sneak.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I want to touch on the part about buying things with feats. Thank God somebody finally understands the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature. That is what they are for, they are there to buy feats. A fighter can use all of his bonus feats to focus on combat and leave his regulars to purchase other types, if he so chooses.
I don’t think we agree on what “finally understands the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature” means.
So force the fighter to invest all his bonus feats, and some of the others, on combat just so he can keep up with the others and the few that he got left he can pick skill focus or whatever is the concept of the fighter's bonus feats feature?And he still doesn’t have any non-hitting-people problem-solving schticks. No spells, no cool rage powers, no lay on hands, no set of great class skills or no feat that let him buy more skill points, no feats besides Iron will and greater Iron that lets him improve is will saves, no feats that improve is mobility.
Sure he can boost diplomacy and become a diplomat. He can pump sense motive too so he can tell if they lie and boost stealth and perception. I’m not denying this.But skills can only do so much once you reach a certain level and the fighter only got 2 skills per level.
There is a reason many players pick extra rage powers as a feat. There are so many rage powers that are so much better than any feat out there. And they like the Ranger and Paladin, the Barbarian don’t need to invest heavily in combat feats unless they want to play an archer. Power attack and Improved crit is enough. Barbarians probably wants to add combat reflexes and Raging Vitality.
Who exactly does he need to keep up with?
The damage a fighter does is continuous while the others are reliant on certain circumstances. Now the problem with these forums is people always assume these circumstances are going to always be happening. Rangers are going to always fight their first favored enemy and Paladins aren't always going to be up against evil foes.
The fighter doesn't have to spend all of it's feats on combat just to be on par. A fighter has never had a problem with hitting anything in the book that it's suppposed to be up against nor does have any trouble doing damage.
No other class can do feat chains like a fighter can so that is one of the things that make it unique and what the design of the class is all about. Also, no other class can specialize in armor like a fighter can. Now before we here the Celestial armor bit the same can be said for spells if someone has UMD high enough so the door swings both ways. You have to invest in an item to get what the fighter gets for free, another unique ability. Hell, give the fighter a bane weapon and throw a bunch of bane enemies at the fighter and you're got a touch of ranger there.
Some of you are actually ignoring whats there just to try and validate your argument. Yea everybody gets feats but nobody gets the sheer amount that the fighter gets which enables him to do more things.
|
|
All you need to be a scout is Stealth and Perception so don't start moving the goalposts before...I know the other guy said it too, so I don't just want to single you out. But my tank can scout, based on your prerequisite lol. I don't have stealth but I hav a ton of perception, hp and a potion of invisibility, expeditious retreat and fly.
Wouldn't a scout actually have some knowledge skills so the knew exactly what they saw and could share weaknesses and strengths with their allies, linguistics to understand their conversations in undercommon or goblinoid.
My tank can scout and tell you the number and location of the enemy force, but if I am building a party, I want a scout who can tell me the size, location, makeup, and tactics of the enemy force and even suggest ways to bypass them if our resources are low.
Then let's see your scout build then.
I want to see your tank do some scouting.
|
|
List of fighter feats, as in fighters only. Please inform me if I have missed any feat or if any other class can get access to any of these feats.
1. Pin Down – Fighter only
2. Disrupting Shot – Fighter only
3. Shield Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
4. Greater Shield Specialization - Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this one too.
5. Point-Blank Master - Can be taken by Ranger too.
6. Critical Mastery – Fighter only
7. Disruptive – can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and the ever so popular Arcane Duelist Bard archetype gets this for free.
8. Spellbreaker - Can be taken by Barbarian as a rage power and Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
9. Greater Shield Focus - can be taken by Ranger and the Cleric Crusader Archetype too.
10. Greater Weapon Focus – battle Oracle and the Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
11. Penetrating Strike- Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
12. Greater Penetrating Strike - Arcane Duelist gets this for free.
13. Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.
14. Greater Weapon Specialization – Cleric Crusader Archetype can pick this too.Anyone noticed that unlike Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin the fighter hasn’t any abilities that can be activated as a swift action, immediate action or move action. This pretty much means that Barbarian, Ranger and Paladin (and a lot of other classes) get more actions per round than the fighter.
I'm sure I'm still forgetting some but:
Every fighter feat can eventually be taken by the magus and the eldritch knight, too (unless there are some who are too high level as prerequisite)
But the same is true for ways to get rage and rage powers. Yet it shows that no feat is really fighter only.
7) One Inquisition (or could be a domain or both) gives disruptive as bonus feat
13) zen archers get it and everyone with quaterstaff master. The staff magus gets quaterstaff master at 3rd level so he could get weapon spec...
How many feats does your magus get?
Being able to take a fighter feat here and there is nothing really. Unless your Magus can do a few feat chains then what's the point really?
The bottem line is who cares if something isn't fully unique to a class, it's actually the final delivery that is important.
|
|
Then let's see your scout build then.
I want to see your tank do some scouting.
Ok :D
Liam L'Outre, PFS Legal Fighter 9 Grand Lodge
TRAITS: Defender of the Society +1 AC in Heavy or Medium
TRAITS: GL Trait: Observant +1 Perception and Perception becomes a Class Skill
SKILLS: Perception +15 (one of the only two that matter, right?)
SKILLS: Stealth +5 (I pack my +1 Heavy Shield in my pack when I'm scouting and my CofR+3, put on my cloak of elvenkind)
INIT: +7 (Improved Initiative)
HP: 72
ABILITIES:
STR: 18; DEX: 16; CON: 14; INT: 10; WIS: 14; CHA: 10
OFFENSE:
Speed 40 Feet
MELEE +1 Ghost Touch, Evil Outsider Bane Longsword +19/+14 (+16/+11 w/PA) for 1d8+11 (1d8+17 w/PA). Add +2/+5 to damage if I'm not carrying my shield (stealthy!).
RANGE +1 Composite Longbow STR: 4 +14/+9 for 1d8+5
FEATS: Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Improved Critical
DEFENSE:
AC: 31 (27 while Stealthy); FF: 27 (23 while Stealthy); T: 15
SAVES: F: 11 (8 while Stealthy); R: 9 (6 while Stealthy); W: 10 (7 while Stealthy)
FEATS: Shield Focus, Dodge, Iron Will
Combat Gear: +1 Ghost Touch, Evil Outsider Bane Longsword, +1 Compositie Longbow +4STR, +2 Full Plate, +1 Heavy Wood Shield. +3 CoR, +1 RoP, Gloves of Dueling
Other Gear: Sipping Jacket (soak a potion in the jacket for ability to use potion as a swift action and even separate spells that count duration in rounds into separate rounds), Potion of Invisibility x3, Potion of Expeditious Retreat x1, Potion of Fly x1
Tactic: We need someone to scout ahead? Ok, I remove my +1 Heavy Shield and my Cloak of Resistance +3 and put on my cloak of Elvenkind.
Now, I need to be stealthy, fortunately, my dex takes care of my ACP, so I'm at a 0 base in Full Plate Armor, I throw my cloak on, I'm at +5, now I start moving closer, when the GM asks for a stealth check, I sip from my potion jacket as a swift action, I've now got a +45 Stationary Stealth Score and a +25 moving stealth score for 4 minutes. I get close enough to use perception, my +15 gives me a good chance of spotting all our traps and hiding enemies. Potion starting to wear off? I drink potion of expeditious retreat and high tail it out of there.
If I need to do this more than once, we've built a really crappy party. :D
The way I understand this is that splatbooks pretty much killed the Fighter in favor of the Barbarian/Ranger. The Paladin was already a better tank than the Fighter in core. Am I right?
|
|
Then let's see your scout build then.
I want to see your tank do some scouting.
Ok :D
Liam L'Outre, PFS Legal Fighter 9 Grand Lodge
TRAITS: Defender of the Society +1 AC in Heavy or Medium
TRAITS: GL Trait: Observant +1 Perception and Perception becomes a Class Skill
SKILLS: Perception +15 (one of the only two that matter, right?)
SKILLS: Stealth +5 (I pack my +1 Heavy Shield in my pack when I'm scouting and my CofR+3, put on my cloak of elvenkind)
INIT: +7 (Improved Initiative)
HP: 72ABILITIES:
STR: 18; DEX: 16; CON: 14; INT: 10; WIS: 14; CHA: 10OFFENSE:
Speed 40 Feet
MELEE +1 Ghost Touch, Evil Outsider Bane Longsword +19/+14 (+16/+11 w/PA) for 1d8+11 (1d8+17 w/PA). Add +2/+5 to damage if I'm not carrying my shield (stealthy!).
RANGE +1 Composite Longbow STR: 4 +14/+9 for 1d8+5
FEATS: Power Attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Combat Reflexes, Lunge, Improved CriticalDEFENSE:
AC: 31 (27 while Stealthy); FF: 27 (23 while Stealthy); T: 15
SAVES: F: 11 (8 while Stealthy); R: 9 (6 while Stealthy); W: 10 (7 while Stealthy)
FEATS: Shield Focus, Dodge, Iron WillCombat Gear: +1 Ghost Touch, Evil Outsider Bane Longsword, +1 Compositie Longbow +4STR, +2 Full Plate, +1 Heavy Wood Shield. +3 CoR, +1 RoP, Gloves of Dueling
Other Gear: Sipping Jacket (soak a potion in the jacket for ability to use potion as a swift action and even separate spells that count duration in rounds into separate rounds), Potion of Invisibility x3, Potion of Expeditious Retreat x1, Potion of Fly x1
Tactic: We need someone to scout ahead? Ok, I remove my +1 Heavy Shield and my Cloak of Resistance +3 and put on my cloak of Elvenkind.
Now, I need to be stealthy, fortunately, my dex takes care of my ACP, so I'm at a 0 base in Full Plate Armor, I throw my cloak on, I'm at +5, now I start moving closer, when the GM asks for a stealth check, I sip from my potion jacket as a swift action, I've now got a +45 Stationary Stealth Score and a +25 moving...
How is your to hit at 19 and I'm getting 30 for your AC? How is your movement at 40 and don't forget about your Armor check penalties?
You would also be at a minus when using Power Attack to at level 9 that would be a -3 to hit.
I didn't know we were relying on potions to be a scout. My character doesn't need potions to do what you are doing.
|
|
Sorry forgot my boots of striding and springing (movement +10),
ACP = -6 for Full Plate, Masterwork makes that -5, Armor Training makes that -3, DEX makes that 0. So my gear and potions are not taking any negs.
My to hit is 19 we'll do the math together:
Weapon Focus +1, Weapon Training +2, Gloves of Dueling +2, Enchanted +1, STR: +4, BAB +9 = +19 and -3 for PA = +16,
Now my AC, we can do the math together again.
BASE 10 + Full Plate 9 + Enchantment on Full Plate 2 + DEX 3 (ARMOR TRAINING 2) + Defender of the Society 1 + Dodge 1 + Heavy Shield 2 + Enchantment on Shield 1 + Shield Focus 1 + Ring of Protection 1 = 31
While you're geared out to be a scout, I just change the potion I want to put in my sipping jacket and suddenly I'm flying or I'm hasting.
Also, I don't have a single dump stat, with a 20 point buy and have much more HP.
All you need to be a scout is Stealth and Perception so don't start moving the goalposts before you've even seen it.
No, this is leaving the goalposts firmly in place. "Out of combat" does not mean "Looking around a bit before combat starts". Perception and to a lesser extent, Stealth are still combat skills, much like Acrobatics is.
If your character only has Stealth and Perception, then he's still going to run into the same problem with "What does he do in social situations? Sit in the corner and look around some?".
The build is in the multi functional fighter thread I started in Advice. I can already tell it won't make a difference because you won't own up and admit to anything.
Telling me it's somewhere in a thread with 6 pages isn't very helpful.
The way I understand this is that splatbooks pretty much killed the Fighter in favor of the Barbarian/Ranger. The Paladin was already a better tank than the Fighter in core. Am I right?
Yep, more or less. I also think that fighters aren’t self-sufficient enough. Although the problem/lack of flexibility and lack of being unique isn’t something that started with APG, UC and UM. It’s been around since 3.0 as Ashiel poited out:
“The answer to the fighter's problem has thus far been to throw bigger numbers at it and hope it goes away. Except it doesn't. It just becomes a fighter with the same issues and bigger numbers which at least make it decent at the hit/damage portion of the game.”“I hit it in the head with my stick and I do the same damage as I did last fight and I will do the same damage next fight because my powers are always on” is perhaps good, but boring and monotonically (I hope I got the word right).
As for there is nothing unique/exclusive about fighters? True they get more feats than any other class but the point is that everyone gets a significant chunk of what makes the fighter "special", because everyone gets feats. Some of them even get access to fighter feats. And feat taxes doesn’t help the fighter and Pathfinder actually have more of them than 3.x.
BTW, I still don’t understand why fighters only have 2 skills per level since “everyone else with 2 skill point is ridiculously loaded with supernatural powers and abilities” (as pointed out by Proftobe).
@Shallowsoul
not having to rely on a potion of invisibility while scouting?
at 9th level, a 450 GP potion is pocket change according to the people on these forums, is it not?
show me what your dexterity based aldori dueling sword fighter can do without the benefits of an agile weapon then.
i consider an addiction to cheap potions about as questionable as a dependency on a highly specific item or highly specific weapon enchantment.
1) Why do classes have to be equal? If you do not like playing a fighter because it is too boring, play a barbarian, or a paladin, or a magus. Fighter are still played by people who like playing fighters.
2) PF is not an intra-party competition. Who does the most damage, who has the highest AC etc. should not be issues. Even in real life, some people are objectively worse at almost everything than some other people, and they can still have a fun time doing those things.
3) While a barbarian can match damage with a fighter, the fighter will have better eveything else. While a barbarian could match a fighter in AC, the fighter will have a better everything else (in general).
4) While any character can take the feats a fighter uses most, they can never take all of them. A fighter will have more feats.
5) While 97 spells may have been added in UC, how many of them can a wizrd/sorcerer actually take, or cast each day. What do they give up? The quantum caster is a common fallacy people come up with. Jus because a caster can do X, Y, Z, A, and F-L does not mean it can do it all the same day, or any of it though out an entire 8-hour long dungeon crawl where resting is not a good option.
|
|
Rynjin, He's referring to a Fighter 8 Build he presented that is going to have a hard time getting to a point of viability.
He starts with the following (assuming PFS):
STR 13, DEX 18, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 12, CHA 8
At Level 1 with 150g, he can buy:
Aldori Dueling Sword
Buckler
Hide Armor (assuming you tried to play Range game to survive early)
Longbow
Quiver of 20 Arrows
That leaves about 20 GP to spare.
FEATS: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori) and Weapon Finesse (Again I'm guessing, you're free to correct me)
So at level 1, He's got 19 AC (that's decent), and to hit of +5 (1d8+1 damage), your initiative is +4, CMD = 16 and HP is 12 (he took skill as his favored class bonus every time)
Let's throw this guy up against a wolf, that's CR 1. And let's have the fight start at 100 Feet apart (we'll do another where the Wolf is within 60 for him).
SURPRISE: Are you surprised by the wolf? Yikes this could be scary. You have to at least match the wolf's roll as it's Stealth is as high as your Perception. The wolf has scent and perception that is 1 less than your stealth. So I'm going to say neither of you successfully surprise the other.
INITIATIVE: You win, you're +2 advantage is a significant enough advantage to give you the benefit of the doubt here. You go first.
Round 1: ShallowSoul goes first. You fire your arrow, on the average you'll get a 15, so you'll hit for 4 points of damage. Wolf is at 9
Wolf charges (and this is really the fight right here, so I'll let it be a single roll if this roll meets your 19 AC, you are hit for and tripped.
Let's hit enter and see what happens.
|
|
@Shallowsoul
not having to rely on a potion of invisibility while scouting?
at 9th level, a 450 GP potion is pocket change according to the people on these forums, is it not?
show me what your dexterity based aldori dueling sword fighter can do without the benefits of an agile weapon then.
i consider an addiction to cheap potions about as questionable as a dependency on a highly specific item or highly specific weapon enchantment.
So then I find a class that has to depend on it's spellbook to be questionable as well.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First of all, congrats ShallowSoul, your elf fighter survived round 1 with the Wolf, so long as you hit on your next arrow shot (after a 5-step) you should win. You're well on your way to level 2 :D
3) While a barbarian can match damage with a fighter, the fighter will have better eveything else. While a barbarian could match a fighter in AC, the fighter will have a better everything else (in general).
Joh, I agree with you on everything but #3.
A Barbarian with Superstition Rage Power will outstripe a fighter in terms of to Hit, HP, DAM and Saves, though never beat a fighter in terms of flexibility or AC.
I play fighters almost exclusively, I love the flexibility they offer in terms of deciding how to fight. At level 9 with gloves of dueling, I'm getting a +4/+4 Melee bonus and a +3/+3 Range bonus to my attacks and damage. That said, I think they could definitely use a bit of a facelift, nothing major, I really think additional skills and an Evasion/Stalwart ability based on Fort would be perfect.
Let's check to see if Shallowsoul's scout fighter survives his encounter with the wolf.
R2: Shallow Soul takes a 5 foot step back and shoots against the wolf's 12 AC. If SS hits, the wolf takes damage.
I'm going to give the Wolf the benefit of the doubt and say you didn't crit, and let him try 1 more attack.
The Wolf steps forward and bites at SS (you don't have your buckler out, silly me your AC is 18) for damage and maybe a trip if any of this hit.
Let's hit enter and see!