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Which is nice, in theory, except the Fighter in this game DOESN'T fight significantly better than his fellows, and he's still not as skilled.
He doesn't have more options than any other class, especially not ones he's good at.
The Fighter is like Kuwabara, he's pretty good at fighting for a while but after a time Kurama says "Yeah nope, I'm stronger, faster, AND smarter. Suck deez foxy nuts."
That is purely 100% subjective.
Please don't announce it like a fact.
But the fighter doesn't fight significantly better than his fellows and he does get fewer skillpoints?
Okay so he's better than the Paladin against non-evil foes and has as many skill points, but otherwise isn't as skilled and doesn't fight significantly better?
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I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.
@R_Chance: Knowing Aelryinth he was referring to the Fighter having low Saves.
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And while he does more damage than a paladin against neutrals he doesn't actually do better in a party because the paladin has swift action self healing to soak HP damage and vastly better saving throws to ignore non-HP damage.
So what happens if the healing needed or he is out of healing?
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
...Is the party going to stop when the fighter runs out of HP in half the time it took the Paladin?
And you know the Paladin is entirely able to heal allies without spending the gold that the fighter apparently does to buy everyone potions?
I'm a little confused, what is this supposed to prove?
Edit: Also,
That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.
So, you're calling this 'debunked' because the fighter can use his main class feature in order to get really subpar feats like skill focus or something with his normal feats?
Perhaps you could point to some of these feats that could actually give a fighter some out of combat utility, and then perhaps explain how that compares with similar classes? Rather than just making the claim that it is fact and there's no need for proof?
Because I honestly can't see how this is the case, especially when there's enough fighter-only feats to actually have the fighter also cut into his normal reserves if he wants to be, you know, like good at fighting.
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Aaaaand...
The paladin is reliant on fighting evil foes x number of times a day, where X eventually surpasses the daily encounter limit, to really, really outperform the fighter. The rest of the time, against evil foes, his spells and weapon bond let him equal the fighter. Against boss monster tough guys, there's really no comparison.
Against Neutral foes, the paladin invokes his weapon bond to basically equal the fighter. With maybe a spell or two on top of it. At higher levels, he has enough time and uses to use it almost all of the time!
And then he pits his immunity to fear, later immunities to charms and compulsions, Good Will Save, and Cha to all saves, and zondo mondo ability to group heal and remove debilitating combat conditions against...the Fighter's Bravery.
The two of them weep together at their lousy skill point total, the Fighter compares his Intimidation and lack of Cha synergy with the paladin's Diplomacy and Cha synergy, points out that the paladin can smite with a toothpick and all his own weapon feats and training bonuses are tied to having the exact required weapon available, and the paladin pats him on the arm and takes him out for a drink, knowing the fighter is going to have to be buying CLW's and healing potions, and the least he can do with his friend is help him drown his sorrows.
==Aelryinth
for example Intimidating prowess give a big bonus to intimidate, so it give the fighter an option for social encounters. in combat it work great coupled with cornugon smash.
Okay. So it lets you add your Strength modifier to your Intimidate bonus one time at the cost of a feat.
Compared to a Ranger or Barbarian, how is that better than simply having 2 more skill points per level, allowing them to keep Intimidate maxed, still have another skill point up on the fighter, and not have to spend a feat to do that?
Edit: And yes, I know the fighter could keep Intimidate maxed too, but that's really cutting into his 2+ skill points per level. Not as painful on the Barb/Ranger's 4+
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And while he does more damage than a paladin against neutrals he doesn't actually do better in a party because the paladin has swift action self healing to soak HP damage and vastly better saving throws to ignore non-HP damage.So what happens if the healing needed or he is out of healing?
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
That's like... The most non-sensical retoric ever.
"Paladin can run out of healing! But Fighters will always have healing potions!"
How does that make sense?
Is "Buy Potions" a Fighter-only feat? Is it even a feat? Do Fighters get more money? Do Fighters benefit more from potions/wands? Can they craft said potions? Are those potions any less overpriced for Fighters? Does X Potions somehow heal more HP than X Potions + Y LoH? Do Fighters have UMD as a class skill and/or any real benefit for boosting Charisma? Do they even have enough skill points to invest in UMD (which takes a lot of ranks before you can actually use it to any real effect)?
The answer to all those question is "no", of course.
You asked for a feat that give an option and I gave it. Even with maxed skillthe barbarian and the ranger without intimidating prowess would be behind the fighter with the feat.
I asked for a feat that gave an option, and how it then compares to similar classes, those being the Ranger and Barbarian in this example.
And yes, I acknowledged the Fighter can keep Intimidate maxed and still take Intimidating Prowess, but then he's quite literally devoting half of his skill points (from class anyway, but any other bonuses to skill ranks, such as being human and favored bonuses, are things that the other classes can use as well) to keep it maxed.
And it is not just a feat to be better at social encounters it works with Cornugon smash (or the weaker dazzling display) to debuff your opponent in combat so it is not like a sacrifice of combat prowess for non combat utility.
I thought this kind of went without saying in my last post, but what's to stop the Ranger and Barbarian from taking Cornugon Smash?
They benefit from it just as much as the Fighter, and probably don't need Intimidating Prowess, thanks to the larger number of skill ranks. So they're at 1 feat to the Fighter's 2, which pretty much keeps the ratios even (besides the fact that Ranger and Barbarian both still have a number of other class features... but I'll leave that alone for now), and they still have more skill points to put into being good at other things. Because, while I hate to say it, being able to scare people outside of combat doesn't really sound all that versatile to me.
The main problem with fighters is their saves suck.
My big problem with fighters (and rogues, for that matter) is that they can't do anything at all that most other classes can't also do. Stop time? Wizards/sorcerers only. Raise the dead? Clerics only. Hit things? Yeah, everyone can do that.
I'd like to see each class get unique abilities that, while not essential to any given adventure, make portions of it a lot easier -- and, once assigned, no one else would get to do that; everyone else would have to jerry-rig some other, less optimal way to do accomplish the same thing.
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fighters are fine, though i too am annoyed by all these stupid extended feat chains.
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And while he does more damage than a paladin against neutrals he doesn't actually do better in a party because the paladin has swift action self healing to soak HP damage and vastly better saving throws to ignore non-HP damage.So what happens if the healing needed or he is out of healing?
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
This provokes a demonstration. Sorry folks!
At 8th level, a Paladin heals 4d6 points of damage per lay on hands (average of 14 hp healed per LoH). Assuming that she has a 16 Charisma (not unfair by 8th level by any means at all) she can do this 7 times per day for an average healing of about 98 Hp worth of healing (along with the kicker of also removing status ailments such as fatigued and sickened, which is similar to having a lesser restoration tacked onto the heal as well).
A cure light wounds potion heals 5 hp average and requires you draw it (a move action) and drink it (a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity). Each potion costs 50 gp. To heal an equivalent amount worth of healing each day, the Fighter would need to spend 980 gp per day on healing potions (19.8 potions), and these potions would be effectively useless in combat as drinking them in combat prevents him from acting, gets him attacked if is in danger, and probably results in further loss of HP due to the AoO.
Meanwhile, the Paladin can swift-action heal without wasting actions or provoking. Which means that when he's staring down a troll in the face and suffers some hits, bam, he heals and keeps on fighting. The fighter must get away from the troll and have the troll stalled for him to drink potions to recoup his losses. If we're talking about downtime, then the Paladin has 980 gp worth of free healing per day, and could have invested 750 gp into a wand of cure light wounds to heal an average of 250 hit points out of combat without sinking points into UMD and risking rolling a 1 and shutting the wand down for 24 hours.
So the Paladin is much better at endurance as he has 980 gp worth of free healing, plus status condition removal, and immunity to fear, and better saving throws (meaning he takes less damage from spells allowing saves such as lightning bolt).
Now if the Paladin wants to spend 1 feat (fey foundling), the Paladin increases his healing received by +2 per die, which means 4d6 became 4d6+8 (average of 22 HP / LoH). That brings the Paladin's heals up to the equivalent of 30.8 potions of cure light wounds or 1,540 gp worth of free healing each day. It also makes the effective healing he can receive from the wand of cure light wounds about 350 hp (pushing the effective cost of healing from the wand down from 3 gp per HP to 2.1 gp per HP, or about 25% less money).
If the Fighter burns one of his non-combat feats (as in, not a bonus feat) to take the same feat, he would receive +2 Hp / potion drank. He would still have to consume 22 potions (1,100 gp worth) each day to match the Paladin's healing under the same conditions.
A Note About Healing Potions
Using more powerful healing potions only comes out in the Paladin's favor more ferociously. See, a basic healing potion is 50 gp for an average of 5 HP worth of healing. However, a cure moderate wounds potion costs 300 gp for an average of 12 worth of healing. A potion of cure serious wounds is 750 gp for an average of 18.5 points of healing. For those who understand even the most basic of math, that puts cure light wounds as the most efficient form of healing via potions out of the cure spells.
Now, a potion or oil of infernal healing can be used by both the Paladin and the Fighter and is more efficient at downtime healing for the cost (x2 HP recovery over 10 rounds as a cure light wounds potion). However, even with that, the Fighter would still have to consume 11 of such potions per day (550 gp) to match merely the lay on hands of the Paladin. And then the Paladin of course can consume the exact same potions to recover the same amount of HP.
As levels rise, our Paladin's lay on hands also can remove conditions such as curses, poisons, exhaustion, blinded, or even paralyzed. With a feat, a Paladin can even use Lay on Hands to bring people back to life without paying the the material component cost for raise dead!
The Paladin also has a Paladin spell which can be cast as an immediate action if the Paladin would be dropped below 0 HP or killed to use Lay on Hands to try and make up the difference. Meaning it's also more difficult to drop the Paladin with a critical hit or a burst of incoming damage!
Paladins have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more staying power than Fighters ever will.
@ Kyrt: I can agree with that. Feats are clearly not all created equal, and it exacerbates the problem of fighters not getting nearly as many toys as the rest of the classes. If there were actually a good number of feats that were rewarding to take and didn't require powering through a bunch of ones you don't want, then I could see having bonus feats as a main class feature be appealing.
Edit: Ashiel jumped between my post and Kyrt's.
I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.
Ah....! So because he has no out of combat abilities in any way, shape, or form, he can use his regular feats for it like everyone else?
Aaaaand...
The paladin is reliant on fighting evil foes x number of times a day, where X eventually surpasses the daily encounter limit, to really, really outperform the fighter. The rest of the time, against evil foes, his spells and weapon bond let him equal the fighter. Against boss monster tough guys, there's really no comparison.
==AelryinthYes the paladin do more damage against BBEG if he can hit it. But there is a couple of other things to consider.
The paladin is probably slower so he could use and extra turn just moving. In a recent Red hand of doom campain of mine, the magus, the barbarian the rogue and the ranger crossed a bridge in one turn, the paladin spended two turn, reciving a couple of arrow in the procces.
Also, not always the fights are against BBEG. Against several evil foes he have to spend multiple smite evil to equal the fighter or he can save those smites and be inferior all hte fight.
Aaaaand...
Against Neutral foes, the paladin invokes his weapon bond to basically equal the fighter. With maybe a spell or two on top of it. At higher levels, he has enough time and uses to use it almost all of the time!
==Aelryinth
And the paladin just spended 1-3 turns buffing himself while the fighter is hitting something, not to mention that some AoO can disrupt the spellcating of the spell.
And even with the same attack and damage bonus the fighter have the advantage of extra feats. Lunge, step up, disruptive, cornugon smash, critical feats, etc... you can not buy those with weapon bond.
the paladin is clearly superior in this regard, but the fighter can work his saves to a decent enough level....Aaaaand...
And then he pits his immunity to fear, later immunities to charms and compulsions, Good Will Save, and Cha to all saves, and zondo mondo ability to group heal and remove debilitating combat conditions against...the Fighter's Bravery.
==Aelryinth
Nicos, come on.
Why was the paladin slow there?
Because he was likely wearing non-mithral full plate. The barb I'll give you, but if the ranger was using longstrider, then the paladin can get boots of striding. It's all one. If everyone is flying, like at high levels, then everyone moves the same speed.
As soon as he's wearing mithral, be it full plate or breastplate, he and the fighter move at the exact same speed. The fighter's armor training is only useful if he's wearing adamantine...in which case, mithral equals 2 pts of his dex bonus class feature!
As for 'spending 1-3 rounds buffing', that's if he needs to do it. If he has any time at all, he can cast a spell and move into position. His healing is a swift action, and so he can cast a spell as he moves into position, soak an attack from the enemy, heal himself, and guess what? Now he IS buffed with an appropriate weapon (which can be ANY weapon he is using, not a specific weapon or weapon type!) and can unleash, after comfortably drawing attention away from the rest of the party.
Just as likely, he can hang back, weapon bond his bow, and start drilling out full attacks.
Spells are used when it's optimal to use them, and situations can always be set where if you need to cast, then you cast. If you don't, then you don't.
==Aelryinth
Ah....! So because he has no out of combat abilities in any way, shape, or form, he can use his regular feats for it like everyone else?I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.
You mean, like everyone else uses their class abilities for, instead?
==Aelryinth
About spells. Paladin is a great class, probably stronger than fighter (not by much I believe) but casting spells is not always so easy. Peole can not always buff before the fight, much less if it requires multiple standar actions. And what if the mosnter have reach? a paladin most likely will fail his concentration check.
Gotta disagree with you here, Nicos.
Many of a Paladins' in-combat spells are cast as swift or immediate action, allowing them to cast without hurting their action economy.
And since most of them are low level, it's not hard to pass the concentration check even if it's cast as a standard action. Specially if we consider traits like Focused Mind and Magical Knack.
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Ah....! So because he has no out of combat abilities in any way, shape, or form, he can use his regular feats for it like everyone else?I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.
That's what the bonus feats are for actually. You spend your bonus feats on combat while you spend the others where ever you want, but if the other classes, such as the rogue, have the out of combat skills covered then you can focus even more on combat. Fighting is what you do, you want a classes that does other things then either build one, which has been proven many many many times already, or you pick a class that better fits your concept.
What exactly do you want the fighter to do outside of combat?
That's what the bonus feats are for actually. You spend your bonus feats on combat while you spend the others where ever you want, but if the other classes, such as the rogue, have the out of combat skills covered then you can focus even more on combat. Fighting is what you do, you want a classes that does other things then either build one, which has been proven many many many times already, or you pick a class that better fits your concept.
What exactly do you want the fighter to do outside of combat?
How about... Anything. Other than wait and hope your freinds can solve the problem, I mean.
Spend all your non-combat feats on non-combat options and now your Fighter is worse at fighting than any other martial.Also, every class fights. Every. Single. Class.
Fighters are not the only ones who do that, and they're are not better than other martials either.
And every class can contribute in and out of combat, why are Fighters the only ones who have to sit out half the adventure?
It's kinda funny how you go from "Fighter can do things out of combat" to "Fighters suck out of combat, but that's okay, because that's what they're designed to do" so often.
Well, I am not a paladin specialist, can you point a couple of examples.Many of a Paladins' in-combat spells are cast as swift or immediate action, allowing them to cast without hurting their action economy.
And since most of them are low level, it's not hard to pass the concentration check even if it's cast as a standard action. Specially if we consider traits like Focused Mind and Magical Knack.
Neither am I, but sure:
- Grace
- Litany of Sloth (actually, nearly every "Litany of..." spell)
- Fire of Entanglement
- Inheritor's Smite
- Burst of Speed
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And while he does more damage than a paladin against neutrals he doesn't actually do better in a party because the paladin has swift action self healing to soak HP damage and vastly better saving throws to ignore non-HP damage.So what happens if the healing needed or he is out of healing?
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
This provokes a demonstration. Sorry folks!
At 8th level, a Paladin heals 4d6 points of damage per lay on hands (average of 14 hp healed per LoH). Assuming that she has a 16 Charisma (not unfair by 8th level by any means at all) she can do this 7 times per day for an average healing of about 98 Hp worth of healing (along with the kicker of also removing status ailments such as fatigued and sickened, which is similar to having a lesser restoration tacked onto the heal as well).
A cure light wounds potion heals 5 hp average and requires you draw it (a move action) and drink it (a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity). Each potion costs 50 gp. To heal an equivalent amount worth of healing each day, the Fighter would need to spend 980 gp per day on healing potions (19.8 potions), and these potions would be effectively useless in combat as drinking them in combat prevents him from acting, gets him attacked if is in danger, and probably results in further loss of HP due to the AoO.
Meanwhile, the Paladin can swift-action heal without wasting actions or provoking. Which means that when he's staring down a troll in the face and suffers some hits, bam, he heals and keeps on fighting. The fighter must get away from the troll and have the troll stalled for him to drink potions to recoup his losses. If we're talking about downtime, then the Paladin has 980 gp worth of free healing per day, and could have invested 750 gp into a wand of cure light wounds to heal an average of 250...
Let's not forget that the paladin either needs to drop or sheath his weapon or shield in order to use this ability because you need a free hand so it's not just a quick touch and good to go.
Also, the fighter can jack his AC up to the point where he rarely gets hit so healing isn't really needed when you aren't hit often, also he could spend the extra money and buy greater potions of healing that would be more bang for his buck.
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Aaaaand...
The paladin is reliant on fighting evil foes x number of times a day, where X eventually surpasses the daily encounter limit, to really, really outperform the fighter. The rest of the time, against evil foes, his spells and weapon bond let him equal the fighter. Against boss monster tough guys, there's really no comparison.
Against Neutral foes, the paladin invokes his weapon bond to basically equal the fighter. With maybe a spell or two on top of it. At higher levels, he has enough time and uses to use it almost all of the time!
And then he pits his immunity to fear, later immunities to charms and compulsions, Good Will Save, and Cha to all saves, and zondo mondo ability to group heal and remove debilitating combat conditions against...the Fighter's Bravery.
The two of them weep together at their lousy skill point total, the Fighter compares his Intimidation and lack of Cha synergy with the paladin's Diplomacy and Cha synergy, points out that the paladin can smite with a toothpick and all his own weapon feats and training bonuses are tied to having the exact required weapon available, and the paladin pats him on the arm and takes him out for a drink, knowing the fighter is going to have to be buying CLW's and healing potions, and the least he can do with his friend is help him drown his sorrows.
==Aelryinth
I don't know about you but around 13th level we have more than 5 encounters a day. Also, Smite evil works against one opponent only so once they drop you lose that smite so you will need to activate it again which you could end up spending two or three in a single combat encounter.
Why does the fighter really need to buy anything when there is a cleric in the party or he has an AC that's really high?
The fact of the matter is, unless you have a DM that let's you stop every 5 minutes the fighter keeps on trucking. He doesn't have to hold back his ability against a certain type of enemy, his damage his continuous, and so is his to hit. He has one of the best AC's in the game and he is allowed to essentially keep all of his movement. He cas a constant +4 to hit and damage no matter what he is fighting. We will also throw Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization to make it an automatic + 6 to hit and + 8 to damage to everything.
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...And while he does more damage than a paladin against neutrals he doesn't actually do better in a party because the paladin has swift action self healing to soak HP damage and vastly better saving throws to ignore non-HP damage.So what happens if the healing needed or he is out of healing?
Is your party going to stop every time the paladin runs out of healing or Smite?
Fighter hands out all those healing potions he thought to buy.
This provokes a demonstration. Sorry folks!
At 8th level, a Paladin heals 4d6 points of damage per lay on hands (average of 14 hp healed per LoH). Assuming that she has a 16 Charisma (not unfair by 8th level by any means at all) she can do this 7 times per day for an average healing of about 98 Hp worth of healing (along with the kicker of also removing status ailments such as fatigued and sickened, which is similar to having a lesser restoration tacked onto the heal as well).
A cure light wounds potion heals 5 hp average and requires you draw it (a move action) and drink it (a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity). Each potion costs 50 gp. To heal an equivalent amount worth of healing each day, the Fighter would need to spend 980 gp per day on healing potions (19.8 potions), and these potions would be effectively useless in combat as drinking them in combat prevents him from acting, gets him attacked if is in danger, and probably results in further loss of HP due to the AoO.
Meanwhile, the Paladin can swift-action heal without wasting actions or provoking. Which means that when he's staring down a troll in the face and suffers some hits, bam, he heals and keeps on fighting. The fighter must get away from the troll and have the troll stalled for him to drink potions to recoup his losses. If we're talking about downtime, then the Paladin has 980 gp worth of free healing per day, and could have invested 750 gp into a
Still leaves a shield carrying paladin screwed because it's one or the other.
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I seem to remember it being said that Light Shields (and bucklers) can hold things, and its a free action to toss things between available hands.
So a shield Pally using a Light Shield could toss his one-handed weapon into the shield hand, cast his swift action spell with his weapon hand, then toss it back and proceed to pummel whatever he's up against.
You need to post that source then.
Let's not forget that the paladin either needs to drop or sheath his weapon or shield in order to use this ability because you need a free hand so it's not just a quick touch and good to go.
Also, the fighter can jack his AC up to the point where he rarely gets hit so healing isn't really needed when you aren't hit often, also he could spend the extra money and buy greater potions of healing that would be more bang for his buck.
Yeah... About dropping weapons for LoH...
1- Not necessary if you using a two-handed weapon.2- TWF or Sword and Board? How about buying a 1sp item named weapon cord?
And again: What extra money?
What exactly does a Paladin need that a Fighter doesn't? If anything the Paladin will have more gold! Paladins can buy cheaper versions of save boosting items, and don't even need them til high levels.
They can save charges of wands of CLW/Lesser Restoration (which are much cheaper than potions, BTW) thanks to LoH and spells.
They don't need weapons made of different materials as much as fighters do, as he can easily turn his +2 weapon into a +3, and Smite Evil bypass DR anyway.
And how does that AC help against AoE damage? Or any save? Or touch attacks? How much is AC worth at higher levels compared to saves?
Still leaves a shield carrying paladin screwed because it's one or the other.
Do Bucklers not exist to you?
Nicos, come on.
Why was the paladin slow there?
Because he was likely wearing non-mithral full plate. The barb I'll give you, but if the ranger was using longstrider, then the paladin can get boots of striding. It's all one. If everyone is flying, like at high levels, then everyone moves the same speed.
As soon as he's wearing mithral, be it full plate or breastplate, he and the fighter move at the exact same speed. The fighter's armor training is only useful if he's wearing adamantine...in which case, mithral equals 2 pts of his dex bonus class feature!
As for 'spending 1-3 rounds buffing', that's if he needs to do it. If he has any time at all, he can cast a spell and move into position. His healing is a swift action, and so he can cast a spell as he moves into position, soak an attack from the enemy, heal himself, and guess what? Now he IS buffed with an appropriate weapon (which can be ANY weapon he is using, not a specific weapon or weapon type!) and can unleash, after comfortably drawing attention away from the rest of the party.
Just as likely, he can hang back, weapon bond his bow, and start drilling out full attacks.
Spells are used when it's optimal to use them, and situations can always be set where if you need to cast, then you cast. If you don't, then you don't.
==Aelryinth
you are wrong about the speed in armors
So a paladin in medium armor (like mithral full plate) will be slower than a fighter. A paladin can go in mithral breastplate...
SpeedMedium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character's speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. They use the first column. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings have an unencumbered speed of 20 feet. They use the second column. Remember, however, that a dwarf's land speed remains 20 feet even in medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.
Nicos, speed in armor affects every single one of the classes you mentioned in that example. So, tell me how the barb, who loses his fast move in medium armor, the ranger, and the theif were all moving faster then the paladin? There's no fighter in that example of yours.
The only argument you have there is they were in lighter armor or had movement enhancements.
And it's not that the fighter can buy magic to get him some small measure of protection from Dominate. It's that every other class can buy mithral and effectively get half his class feature of Armor training, which totally belittles the value of it, and that there's tons of other Will saves that aren't foiled by Prot/Evil that are going to take him out.
==Aelryinth
Barbarians don't lose their Fast Movement in Medium armor, only Heavy armor. So he'd be moving at 25 feet.
I seem to remember it being said that Light Shields (and bucklers) can hold things, and its a free action to toss things between available hands.
So a shield Pally using a Light Shield could toss his one-handed weapon into the shield hand, cast his swift action spell with his weapon hand, then toss it back and proceed to pummel whatever he's up against.
In 3.5 you could cast with the hand that was carrying a buckler or small shield. In Pathfinder it's buckler only, making the small shield obsolete for spellcasters.
''Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.''
''Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.''
You see, nothing in the small shield description says that you can use your hand for spellcasting, you can only use it to carry items.
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Aaaaand...
The paladin is reliant on fighting evil foes x number of times a day, where X eventually surpasses the daily encounter limit, to really, really outperform the fighter. The rest of the time, against evil foes, his spells and weapon bond let him equal the fighter. Against boss monster tough guys, there's really no comparison.
Against Neutral foes, the paladin invokes his weapon bond to basically equal the fighter. With maybe a spell or two on top of it. At higher levels, he has enough time and uses to use it almost all of the time!
And then he pits his immunity to fear, later immunities to charms and compulsions, Good Will Save, and Cha to all saves, and zondo mondo ability to group heal and remove debilitating combat conditions against...the Fighter's Bravery.
The two of them weep together at their lousy skill point total, the Fighter compares his Intimidation and lack of Cha synergy with the paladin's Diplomacy and Cha synergy, points out that the paladin can smite with a toothpick and all his own weapon feats and training bonuses are tied to having the exact required weapon available, and the paladin pats him on the arm and takes him out for a drink, knowing the fighter is going to have to be buying CLW's and healing potions, and the least he can do with his friend is help him drown his sorrows.
==Aelryinth
I don't know about you but around 13th level we have more than 5 encounters a day. Also, Smite evil works against one opponent only so once they drop you lose that smite so you will need to activate it again which you could end up spending two or three in a single combat encounter.
Why does the fighter really need to buy anything when there is a cleric in the party or he has an AC that's really high?
The fact of the matter is, unless you have a DM that let's you stop every 5 minutes the fighter keeps on trucking. He doesn't have to hold back his ability against a certain type of enemy, his damage his continuous, and so is his to hit. He has...
And if you regularly have more then 4 encoutners you space them out and use Weapon Bond, spells, and smite interchangeably.
The Fighter doesn't get +4/+4 until level 17...the very end of an AP, likely the end of a campaign. He doesn't get +3 until 13...and remember, that's only with his primary weapon. He doesn't finish the spec tree until level 12, and it takes 4 of the 7 feats from his class he has to accomplish it, severely cutting into the combat feats he has left, if he's going to 'use his general feats to help with his defenses and out of combat work'. At level 10 he's going to be +4/+4 with his primary weapon, +1/+1 with his secondary...where the paladin can weapon bond for +3 with ANY weapon, and neatly close that damage gap, if he doesn't Greater Magic Weapon on top of it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-light-wooden-or-stee l
as for the carry items in shield hand with a light shield, it's right there in the description of the shield. Took thirty seconds to check out. So, yes, he can swap his weapon to his shield hand to cast or heal himself.
==Aelryinth
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I don't know about you but around 13th level we have more than 5 encounters a day. Also, Smite evil works against one opponent only so once they drop you lose that smite so you will need to activate it again which you could end up spending two or three in a single combat encounter.
And what does the Fighter do when his allies need to rest? Does he force the wizard to keep going? How many resources are used to protect/heal the fighter from nasty effects such as Dominate Person, Confusion, Slow, etc?
Yes, Smite Evil is limited, but a limited resource is still much better than no resources at all.Why does the fighter really need to buy anything when there is a cleric in the party or he has an AC that's really high?
Okay, this is the new dumbest answer I've ever seen. "Why do I need stuff if the Cleric can heal/protect me".
How does that make sense???
A Cleric can heal/protect the Paladin just as well, and she won't need nearly as many resources to do it, thanks to Mr.Paladin's saves, immunites and healing abilities!
The fact of the matter is, unless you have a DM that let's you stop every 5 minutes the fighter keeps on trucking. He doesn't have to hold back his ability against a certain type of enemy, his damage his continuous, and so is his to hit. He has one of the best AC's in the game and he is allowed to essentially keep all of his movement. He cas a constant +4 to hit and damage no matter what he is fighting. We will also throw Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization to make it an automatic + 6 to hit and + 8 to damage to everything.
Yes, grab all those +X feats and feel how fun it's to be useless when hitting things is not a viable solution. Lose that weapon and there goes 4 feats. BTW, that's almost half of your bonus feats, so you're not very versatile in combat either.