40 speed is actually at that magical point where the system rounds favorably Rynjin. 40 speed is reduced to 30 in Medium/Heavy armor.
Wait, seriously? I'll have to let my players know this.
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You need to post that source then.I seem to remember it being said that Light Shields (and bucklers) can hold things, and its a free action to toss things between available hands.
So a shield Pally using a Light Shield could toss his one-handed weapon into the shield hand, cast his swift action spell with his weapon hand, then toss it back and proceed to pummel whatever he's up against.
"Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it."
It is generally accepted, although I can't find the rule, that handing your weapon from one hand to the other is a free action. I am not sure if that is/was a holdover from 3.5 or what since i can't locate a rule stating so.
Note: Barbs lose fast move in medium armor, so their base is still 30 and reduced to 20. Get Mithral, pops right back up to 40, however.
==Aelryinth
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A full BAB decent strength melee character or decent dexterity archer should be more than a match for the majority of non-major enemies, usually you don't get more than a couple of truly dangerous foes per encounter and a bunch of grunts the grunts any full BAB character will hit and kill in a full round. So it is only against the truly dangerous foes that stuff like weapons training, smite evil and challenge and favored enemy actually matter and Weapons Training is by far the weakest of those abilities.
Wut?
We don't play our games 4th edition style where there are a bunch of low HP minions running around with the big bad sitting there to where everyone can gang up on. Depending on your level, just a full BAB class won't be dropping an enemy that is his challenge rating or above.
Weapon Training coupled with Weapon Focus and Specialization, which is fighter only will give you a + 6 to hit and + 8 to damage vs everything. Favored Enemy will not give you that nor will Smite Evil.
The problem here is we are assuming the battles are going to be tailored to the paladin or the ranger. The fighter doesn't have to worry about this at all.
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I seem to remember it being said that Light Shields (and bucklers) can hold things, and its a free action to toss things between available hands.
So a shield Pally using a Light Shield could toss his one-handed weapon into the shield hand, cast his swift action spell with his weapon hand, then toss it back and proceed to pummel whatever he's up against.
In 3.5 you could cast with the hand that was carrying a buckler or small shield. In Pathfinder it's buckler only, making the small shield obsolete for spellcasters.
''Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.''
''Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.''
You see, nothing in the small shield description says that you can use your hand for spellcasting, you can only use it to carry items.
He wasn't talking about using his shield hand to cast with. He was using it to hand his weapon to so he could use his weapon hand to cast. You can't use a weapon in your shield hand(light) but you can hold it. That is why clerics don't have to constantly drop their weapon when casting and using shields.
Note: Barbs lose fast move in medium armor, so their base is still 30 and reduced to 20. Get Mithral, pops right back up to 40, however.
==Aelryinth
Fast Movement (Ex)
A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian's land speed.
Yep, woops, caught that, his move is just reduced to 30. My error.
You're trying to apply a double standard, here, Nicos. You're trying to say that a clear spindle ioun stone is equal to what class feature? A good Will save? Immunity to compulsions? Both things a paladin gets without spending cash? And the fact it doesn't work against a broad array of will saves OR non-evil people is just to be overlooked because it stops a total of 4 commonly used spells?
And then you're trying to say Armor Training is great...except standard non-magical gear duplicates the effect pre-11th level? Heck, being a DWARF duplicates the effect entirely? Armor Training doesn't make a fighter faster, it just negates a penalty.
And at high levels, when you really want movement, every one is flying and ground movement and the fighter ability become superfluous.
I like Armor Training, but it should have been configured some way that scaled better. Letting the fighter actually get faster (horrors!) would have been a nice start,.
==Aelryinth
Sorry I was assuming you used the CR tables and random encounters which have a strong tendency to either have a single strong enemy or lots of weaker ones.A full BAB decent strength melee character or decent dexterity archer should be more than a match for the majority of non-major enemies, usually you don't get more than a couple of truly dangerous foes per encounter and a bunch of grunts the grunts any full BAB character will hit and kill in a full round. So it is only against the truly dangerous foes that stuff like weapons training, smite evil and challenge and favored enemy actually matter and Weapons Training is by far the weakest of those abilities.Wut?
We don't play our games 4th edition style where there are a bunch of low HP minions running around with the big bad sitting there to where everyone can gang up on. Depending on your level, just a full BAB class won't be dropping an enemy that is his challenge rating or above.
Weapon Training coupled with Weapon Focus and Specialization, which is fighter only will give you a + 6 to hit and + 8 to damage vs everything. Favored Enemy will not give you that nor will Smite Evil.
The problem here is we are assuming the battles are going to be tailored to the paladin or the ranger. The fighter doesn't have to worry about this at all.
Careful Wind Chime. Some people really hate it when you actually take your examples from the game. :P
The fighter can buy awayfinder and a clear spindle Ioun stone to be inmune against mental control from evil creatures. Not to mention it is double standar. If the fighter buy a potion that is not fair cause is not a class feature, well mitharl armors are not class features of barbarian, rangers or paladins.
I agree about Mithral armors and Wayfinders/Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, but there is a difference here.
1st: Potions are expensive. Wands need either high UMD/Cha or having the spell on your list. This gives a big advantage to Paladins and Rangers (who have CLW on their spell list and a bazillion skill points to invest in UMD). Barbarians have a slight advantage too, as they have twice as many skill points. Nothing significant in this aspect, though.
2nd: Celestial Plate is perhaps the best armor, so even Fighters will probably buy it sooner or later.
3rd: Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a wonderful combo, and I love it. But it's nowhere near as good as a Paladin's Will saves (as that applies to all will saves!) or immunity to charm/compulsion effects (as it applies against enemies form all allignments, not just evil)
Let's not forget that the paladin either needs to drop or sheath his weapon or shield in order to use this ability because you need a free hand so it's not just a quick touch and good to go.
I see this has been discussed a bit back and forth, but I would just like to say, please don't make stuff up and present it as fact, because it really muddies the discussion and makes it sound... well, like you're just making stuff up and presenting it as fact to prove your point, when it is not true.
To self-heal, a Paladin needs to do a swift action touch to themself. While two-handing a weapon, they can switch hold as a free action. Bucklers and light shields allow for movement with the hand holding them, to the point of being able to cast spells and manipulate items. Heavy shields are the only ones that prohibit using that hand. If you really a need a direct quote saying that Paladins can use Lay on Hands on themselves while wielding a Buckler or Light Shield, then I admit I don't have one, but otherwise, it's pretty clear that they'd be fine with it.
Also, if you thought that was a problem for the Paladin, how in the hell do you expect the fighter to grab items from his backpack and use them? And on that note...
Also, the fighter can jack his AC up to the point where he rarely gets hit so healing isn't really needed when you aren't hit often, also he could spend the extra money and buy greater potions of healing that would be more bang for his buck.
Did you even read the post you quoted? Where Ashiel specifically points out that the higher level healing potions are absolutely terrible on their return value? And that Paladins are just straight up better at healing, since they get a whole lot more of it, for free, in a single day than the fighter can honestly hope to match?
If you think they can go around guzzling potions to stay on par with the Paladin and it's not going to massively drain their cash flow, I don't know what to tell you, because I promise, they most certainly aren't going to have any 'extra' cash on the Paladin when they're spending huge chunks of it on potions.
Not to mention, again, that Paladins can do this without interrupting their own combat, extending their longevity without interfering with their combat ability, while a fighter would spend all of their turn pulling potions, drinking, and quite possibly provoking AoOs. It's an absolutely horrible comparison, and I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.
Really, I don't mean to sound rude... but it seems like none of your recent posts in this thread are making any sense :/
Sorry I was assuming you used the CR tables and random encounters which have a strong tendency to either have a single strong enemy or lots of weaker ones.A full BAB decent strength melee character or decent dexterity archer should be more than a match for the majority of non-major enemies, usually you don't get more than a couple of truly dangerous foes per encounter and a bunch of grunts the grunts any full BAB character will hit and kill in a full round. So it is only against the truly dangerous foes that stuff like weapons training, smite evil and challenge and favored enemy actually matter and Weapons Training is by far the weakest of those abilities.Wut?
We don't play our games 4th edition style where there are a bunch of low HP minions running around with the big bad sitting there to where everyone can gang up on. Depending on your level, just a full BAB class won't be dropping an enemy that is his challenge rating or above.
Weapon Training coupled with Weapon Focus and Specialization, which is fighter only will give you a + 6 to hit and + 8 to damage vs everything. Favored Enemy will not give you that nor will Smite Evil.
The problem here is we are assuming the battles are going to be tailored to the paladin or the ranger. The fighter doesn't have to worry about this at all.
at the same level the fighter is getting +6/+8 against a big bad, the ranger is getting +8/+8 against it, using any weapon he desires.
The only fight tailored to the fighter is the horde of multi-species horde semi-dangerous dweebs of non-evil alignments in no armor. If it's evil minions, or chaotics, the paladin wins with axiomatic and holy on demand. If it's dweebs/humanoids in heavy armor, the paladin wins with Brilliant on demand. If it's undead, disruptive on demand. If it's an evil boss creature, smite evil blows the competition out of the water. If it's hordes of bad guys, Speed is available. Merciful rounds out as a straight damage buff, but is useful if you don't want to kill the neutral opponents you're fighting.
The ranger can use a wand of Instant Enemy in every single encounter to take the boss creature on at his highest FE bonus. That's a Nova potential the fighter is never going to quite equal by level (+4 at 5th, +6 at 10th, +8 at 15th, and +10 at 20th). Or he can simply do it 2-6 times a day, depending on Wisdom and Pearls available, by casting a spell.
In multi-enemy fights that might stress his FE choices are when the ranger is at his worst. That's a fairly small subset of fights that I'm sure most rangers work actively to correct, or are unimportant enough to not matter (if you never take FE:Plants, the occasional fight against plants isn't going to make you change your mind).
==Aelryinth
What's this now? Coming from 3.5 fighters in PF are at a perfect place. They fight better than just about everyone. To surpass a fighter in melee with any class requires liberal amounts of cheese or is very situational. Fighters are to the point that our poor Rangers, rogues, and monks have trouble keeping up. Any "fixes" to a fighter would just make any other melee build obsolete without ridiculous amounts of optimization.
So what if a fighter is lacking in out of combat skill. Playing a fighter requires roll independent role-playing.
The fighter can buy a wayfinder and a clear spindle Ioun stone to be inmune against mental control from evil creatures. Not to mention it is double standar. If the fighter buy a potion that is not fair cause is not a class feature, well mitharl armors are not class features of barbarian, rangers or paladins.I agree about Mithral armors and Wayfinders/Clear Spindle Ioun Stone, but there is a difference here.
1st: Potions are expensive. Wands need either high UMD/Cha or having the spell on your list. This gives a big advantage to Paladins and Rangers (who have CLW on their spell list and a bazillion skill points to invest in UMD). Barbarians have a slight advantage too, as they have twice as many skill points. Nothing significant in this aspect, though.
2nd: Celestial Plate is perhaps the best armor, so even Fighters will probably buy it sooner or later.
3rd: Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone is a wonderful combo, and I love it. But it's nowhere near as good as a Paladin's Will saves (as that applies to all will saves!) or immunity to charm/compulsion effects (as it applies against enemies form all allignments, not just evil)
1. most of time the fighter can buy the wand and other party members use it. In those cases the fighter is just fine sine the ands are for out of combat healing.
In the cases nobody in the party can use the wand (A very rare case) there are ways for fighter to use the wands. Other can do better, but the fighter can still ork around the problem2. Note though that other classes still move at lower speed in the celstial plate since it is medium armor.
And if I have the money I probably go for a +3 full plate and a cap of the free thinker, and a cracked pale grism Ioun stone for another +1 to saves.
3. Of course not, but it helps a lot.
1- Well, that goes for everyone. And the Fighter doesn't have any advantage here, but Rangers/Paladins do, as they can use the wands themselves. Cleric is down? Let's hope the Fighter is not the only guy around.
2- You have a point. Although flight speed is the same for everyone.
3- It surely does. Even my Paladins buy the always lovely Wayfinder + Clear Spindle Ioun Stone. Mostly becuase I don't want to risk a demon taking control of my pally, even if it only happens if I roll a natural 1. When I get immunity to compulsion effects, I simply give the item to someone who needs/wants it or sell it.
1. yes that is for everyone so the fither do not lag behind by much. A couple of potions can awake the cleric so the cleric can cure the rest. It cost money (like 100 gp per adventure) but it is a good way to go around th problem.
Indeed, but healing the Cleric with a charge of a wand of CLW is much cheaper. Then again, this is not so much of a difference out of combat. In combat, the Paladin ahs a big advantage, as he doesn't need to use any item (with a feat, he doesn't even need to be close to his fallen ally)
3. Very wise from your part, althoug depending on my saves, I could prefer the other Ioun stone that give +3 to the CMD.
Ah, this is just my paranoia. It may a rare occurence, but once it happens, Mr.Paladin is screwed, and the demon is particullary satisfied.
Besides, since neither Wayfinders nor Ioun Stones use item slots, why not have both Ioun Stones? And there are wayfinder who can hold more than 1 Ioun Stone.
I regularly make fighters that can do things the other classes can't. And my friends regularly make barbarians, paladins, and rangers that can do things my fighters can't.
They all seem like fine options to me.
I am not saying fighter do not have problems. Particulary their low skill points greatly annoys me. But i think a lot of people exagerate the issue.
I agree, but I must add that just as many people understate the Fighter's problems. Often because they refuse to accept that the game may be anything other than perfectly balanced.
Besides, since neither Wayfinders nor Ioun Stones use item slots, why not have both Ioun Stones? And there are wayfinder who can hold more than 1 Ioun Stone.Because Wayfinders that hold more than one stone have more than one power in them and are priced according to those powers and are therefore way more expensive than I'd be comfortable purchasing on a non-full-caster below level 15-ish due to higher priorities.
So buy two standard wayfinders. No items slot used means you can have as many as you want.
Ah....! So because he has no out of combat abilities in any way, shape, or form, he can use his regular feats for it like everyone else?I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.That's what the bonus feats are for actually. You spend your bonus feats on combat while you spend the others where ever you want, but if the other classes, such as the rogue, have the out of combat skills covered then you can focus even more on combat. Fighting is what you do, you want a classes that does other things then either build one, which has been proven many many many times already, or you pick a class that better fits your concept.
What exactly do you want the fighter to do outside of combat?
Be able to contribute with abilities unique to its class like every other class. Currently, the only options are:
a) pick a different class that works just as well as in combat and does something out of combat with its unique abilities,and b) take a varying degree and combination of feats, traits, and ability scores, that eat into your combat ability so you can do things other classes can do better with class abilities.
Ah....! So because he has no out of combat abilities in any way, shape, or form, he can use his regular feats for it like everyone else?I thought the biggest problem with Fighter is the lack of out of combat class features anyway, not combat capability.That's already been debunked because of the fighter's "bonus feats" feature. He spends those on combat and his general feats on non combat stuff.You mean, like everyone else uses their class abilities for, instead?
==Aelryinth
Oh ho, Touché.
wayfinders are indeed expensive.
unless you buy several of the basic 500GP kind and cracked or flawed ioun stones.
So buy two standard wayfinders. No items slot used means you can have as many as you want.Besides, since neither Wayfinders nor Ioun Stones use item slots, why not have both Ioun Stones? And there are wayfinder who can hold more than 1 Ioun Stone.Because Wayfinders that hold more than one stone have more than one power in them and are priced according to those powers and are therefore way more expensive than I'd be comfortable purchasing on a non-full-caster below level 15-ish due to higher priorities.The auras of multiple augmenting wayfinders tend to interfere with each other; a person with one who tries to hold or carry a second usually finds that both sputter out in just a few seconds, but activate again once the second one is set aside. Some advanced, expensive wayfinders may hold more than one ioun stone at the same time and still function (though another wayfinder can interfere if brought too close).
did not know that.
The auras of multiple augmenting wayfinders tend to interfere with each other; a person with one who tries to hold or carry a second usually finds that both sputter out in just a few seconds, but activate again once the second one is set aside. Some advanced, expensive wayfinders may hold more than one ioun stone at the same time and still function (though another wayfinder can interfere if brought too close).
Huh... That's news for me.
Oh well, I can still carry different wayfinders and use one for each situation. And I can still use Ioun Stones the old-fashioned way, letting them float above my head.
The auras of multiple augmenting wayfinders tend to interfere with each other; a person with one who tries to hold or carry a second usually finds that both sputter out in just a few seconds, but activate again once the second one is set aside. Some advanced, expensive wayfinders may hold more than one ioun stone at the same time and still function (though another wayfinder can interfere if brought too close).
I always wondered why there were more expensive versions of wayfinders.
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Fighters do seem weak when compared to all other classes at once...this thread is hardly a fair discussion. A fighter vs paladin discussion might be useful, ditto for a fighter vs barbarian or fighter vs ranger...but this discussion has devolved into a fighter who is not allowed to spend gold versus every class at once who with gold spent on whatever they want. Fighters also seem weak they are not allowed to buy any gear, but other classes are.
It seems to me also that Paladins have to have an array of useful bonuses *just* to compensate for the fact that they *are not* fighters so that they can have some combat relevancy.
Ditto for some of the special equipment out there...Wand of Instant Enemy? lol, please look me in the eye and tell that *that* item wasn't invented just to put the ranger on a more even combat footing with the figher.
I find in DnD and PF, there are a certain number of folks who try to demonstrate some sort of intellectual superiority by bashing the fighter; often with unfair comparisons and double standards...which is so clearly seen in this thread.
My final opinion from this thread: Fighters are such highly optimized death-dealing machines that the only possible way to knock them is to strip them of all their gear and compare them to the best class features of every class at once wearing the best equipment. Mynext character is deffinatly going to be a fighter.
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If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.
But the fighter doesn't fight significantly better than his fellows and he does get fewer skillpoints?He gets the same skill points as a paladin and the paladin is reliant on evil creatures a certain number of times per day.
A paladin is not reliant on fighting evil creatures to contribute to combat. A paladin fighting a nonevil creature can be expected to hang with a fighter of similar focus (that is to say, archery, two-handing, sword and board, whatever) without feeling at all inadequate. He may have moderately less potent offense, but he likely has a far greater advantage over the fighter in resiliency than the fighter has over him in offense. And the paladin can probably make up much of what offensive gap does exist by self-buffing in a fair percentage of fights.
Smite Evil is where the paladin pulls far ahead, not where he catches up.
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If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.
No need to be insulting. Go back and re-read the thread, and refute *my arguments* about what this thread devlolved into.
If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.No need to be insulting. Go back and re-read the thread, and refute *my arguments* about what this thread devlolved into.
Tell us, then... What comparisson was unfair? All we did time and time again was compare Fighters to all other martial classes, but we never mixed those classes' powers or features.
Fighter do have higher DPR and AC. But the difference is not that much, and they have very few out-of-combat options.
You know what is not relevant in combat? A paralyzed warrior. Someone who fell for the Create Pit spell or lost half his HP to a fire ball. What is the Fighter's DPR when he's turned into stone?
If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.No need to be insulting. Go back and re-read the thread, and refute *my arguments* about what this thread devlolved into.Tell us, then... What comparisson was unfair? All we did time and time again was compare Fighters to all other martial classes, but we never mixed those classes' powers or features.
Fighter do have higher DPR and AC. But the difference is not that much, and they have very few out-of-combat options.
You know what is not relevant in combat? A paralyzed warrior. Someone who fell for the Create Pit spell or lost half his HP to a fire ball. What is the Fighter's DPR when he's turned into stone?
I collected those and used them as decorations when I played a tiefling malconvoker in a 3.5 game. Fighters don't really have much preventing them from getting debuff bombed to hell and back. Over the course of a campaign you could make a whole chess set out of them. :D
I once did a comparison of fighter and paladin saves. A fighter who's been on the receiving end of a debuff-bomb ends up a mannaquin. The Paladin swallows the bomb and still has a 90%+ chance to make the save. As do Barbarians (suckers are near immune to magic at high levels). The ranger can't hold up against a debuff-bomb as well, but then a Ranger gets a lot of other stuff to make up for it (freedom of movement alone is more valuable than most of the fighter's class in terms of usefulness IMHO).
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If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.No need to be insulting. Go back and re-read the thread, and refute *my arguments* about what this thread devlolved into.Tell us, then... What comparisson was unfair? All we did time and time again was compare Fighters to all other martial classes, but we never mixed those classes' powers or features.
Fighter do have higher DPR and AC. But the difference is not that much, and they have very few out-of-combat options.
You know what is not relevant in combat? A paralyzed warrior. Someone who fell for the Create Pit spell or lost half his HP to a fire ball. What is the Fighter's DPR when he's turned into stone?
I collected those and used them as decorations when I played a tiefling malconvoker in a 3.5 game. Fighters don't really have much preventing them from getting debuff bombed to hell and back. Over the course of a campaign you could make a whole chess set out of them. :D
I once did a comparison of fighter and paladin saves. A fighter who's been on the receiving end of a debuff-bomb ends up a mannaquin. The Paladin swallows the bomb and still has a 90%+ chance to make the save. As do Barbarians (suckers are near immune to magic at high levels). The ranger can't hold up against a debuff-bomb as well, but then a Ranger gets a lot of other stuff to make up for it (freedom of movement alone is more valuable than most of the fighter's class in terms of usefulness IMHO).
Heh... I'm always tempted to play a Kitsune Sorcerer to boost the DC of compulsion spells to the stratosphere. I'd have the best Fighters and Rogues in world serving as buttlers ands maids.
Maybe Rangers too. Except that when I dominate them, their giant wolf companions might try to chew my face off. I could try the same with Barbarian who lost initiative to me, but if they ever make their saves to break the enchantment, they'd rage to become basically immune to my magic, and probably sunder all my dominate spells too... -.-'.
If that's what you took from the thread you probably need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills a bit.No need to be insulting. Go back and re-read the thread, and refute *my arguments* about what this thread devlolved into.
But your argument has no basis on anything else posted in this thread.
Nobody has been comparing equipment-less Fighter vs Fully Swagged Out every other class. They have been comparing equipment-less Fighter to equipment-less every other class, because equipment can be assumed to be similar across all martial classes, namely a magic weapon, magic armor, a Cloak of Resistance for anyone but Paladin, and some other random goodies that complement their specific attack style or class features.
What people HAVE been doing is saying "Fighter is good because he can buy X" completely ignoring the fact that A.) Everyone has about the same amount of treasure, so they can buy X as well, keeping the gap the same and B.) Many classes have built-in features that allow them to have the same effect that item X is supposed to have, and so can save that cash to buy something else.
Nobody is saying the Fighter isn't allowed to have equipment while everyone else can. They are saying that anything a Fighter can buy, the other classes can buy, or they don't need it in the first place, rendering the whole point moot.
Hence my earlier comment.
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Nearly 900 posts and not one has convinced me that there is a serious problem with the fighter.
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Nearly 900 posts and not one has convinced me that there is a serious problem with the fighter.
And nearly 900 posts and none has convinced me there isn't.
Really a Fighter should have say Good Fort and then can choose one of the other 2 Saves as a Good Save and then the other becomes a Poor Save.
So a Mage Hunter might have a good Will Save while a Battlefield Soldier would choose Reflex.
Or at least make it a good Fort & Ref.
The fighter haters around here are very stubborn...
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The fighter haters around here are very stubborn...
There are no fighter haters in this thread. Just very frustrated fighter lovers. :)
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Nearly 900 posts and not one has convinced me that there is a serious problem with the fighter.
I <3 ya RD, but that doesn't really surprise me. I've learned that some people simply aren't going to be convinced. There have been 900+ other posts, and 900+ posts before them about the fighter's handicaps. You haven't been convinced yet and honestly I don't expect you to be. But there's other people out here that can yet be saved. :P
I will say, however, that we've got just a stupid amount of Paladin threads going on. Not a single one I've seen is about them being underpowered or lacking options. We don't even see any threads about classes like Barbarians, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Sorcerers, or Wizards being underpowered. Or having severe handicaps.
We do see a lot of such on Monk, Fighter, and Rogue. Though the monk has gotten a ton of love in recent times, so now it's mostly Fighter & Rogue. No one has been able to rebuke the claims against them. Most of them try to divert attention from them, or make claims of making up the difference with equipment or throwing seemingly infinite gold pieces at their weaknesses just to compare to their peers (ironically, Shallowsoul, the one who went on about using magic items to compensate has also been the most vocal member of the boards against letting classes buy magic items). You've posted a few fighter builds but they were still riddled with most of the problems that Fighters have. Everyone who tries to talk about fighters being semi-useful pretty much require Fighters to have things like wayfinders with charm-protections or gloves of dueling.
In 900+ posts I haven't seen much of anything that the Fighter can bring to the group that most any other martial couldn't bring and more.
The fighter haters around here are very stubborn...There are no fighter haters in this thread. Just very frustrated fighter lovers. :)
Truer words were never uttered.