Why do DMs frequently ban Synthesist Summoners in their campaigns?
too much paperwork/too overpowered/too easy to build wrong...
No clue. It's probably because of the eidolon is a armor to the summoner at that point. Also promotes min maxing on the summoner's part (why have any physical stats when your armor is going to replace them? Might as well have 20 cha, 15 INT, and 15 WIS)
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Confusing rules, goes against some of the biggest reasons for fixing Druidzilla in PF, very powerful, huge disparity in effective hitpoints between the synth and most other party members which makes it difficult to properly challenge everyone especially at low levels.
They seem confusing and really complicated for little upside for dming for one.
Basically because it (rather dramatically) highlights the existing discrepancies in power between the summoner and druid and most other characters.
A regular summoner, or master summoner is arguably more powerful in general (if you consider the action economy advantage), but the synthesist puts it all into a single high powered package. Honestly if you just changed the fact that it replaced the summoners physical stats and the temp hp thing and brought it in line with wild shape (make it a stat bonus, not an exchanged stat) people probably wouldnt have as huge an issue with it.
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Most GMs ban them based on either experience or reputation.
There are plenty of synthesist summoner supporters who claim that if built correctly the archetype is perfectly balanced, but I tend to disagree with that.
And the fact that it is so easy to build them "wrong" in the first place does nothing but create a situation where GMs have to be 'bad news' deliverers to players with lesser comprehension or more optimistic interpretations than the GM.
In the end it's just a poorly described archetype that confuses too many people and it ends up too frequently with unbalanced results.
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Confusing rules, goes against some of the biggest reasons for fixing Druidzilla in PF, very powerful, huge disparity in effective hitpoints between the synth and most other party members which makes it difficult to properly challenge everyone especially at low levels.
This, pretty much.
I love the concept of the Synthesist, but I am not entirely pleased with the execution. I didn't like the Druid/Wizard stat replacement in Polymorphs in 3.5, and I like it even less in PF, now that no one else can do it.
Avianfoo's suggestions on how to change the Synthesist sound a lot more fair, discourage stat dumping, and make the Synthesist less futz-y, all around, and I would totally use this if any of my players wanted to play one of these.
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On the other hand they are weak where the other sumoner types are strong, you don't get the extra actions
Also they look weird, when a class or race is stronger than most and it is conceivable to do so, I have NPCs treat them different, have them overcharge the character or even refuse service, steal from them etcetera
But yes they are quite strong,
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Most GMs ban them based on either experience or reputation.
There are plenty of synthesist summoner supporters who claim that if built correctly the archetype is perfectly balanced, but I tend to disagree with that.
And the fact that it is so easy to build them "wrong" in the first place does nothing but create a situation where GMs have to be 'bad news' deliverers to players with lesser comprehension or more optimistic interpretations than the GM.
In the end it's just a poorly described archetype that confuses too many people and it ends up too frequently with unbalanced results.
It further extends the problems the summoner has normally. The 'power' choices are obvious and always available. If dont dump physical stats (and thus have very high mental stats) and take non-power evolutions in numbers (like skilled, gills, or tremmorsense) then the synthesist remains a powerful, and flexible class, but not grossly overpowered.
The issue is basically that synthesists come out super optimized with very little effort because of how varied flexible the evolutions are
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I dunno about other GMs, but I do it because of its very badly written mechanics.
It's adds a lot of unnecessary exceptions and special rules to a class that is already full of them.
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They are right that you lose the action economy of most summoners. However, something that hasn't been mentioned is that the eidolon itself can become one of the tankier things in all of creation (less HD is less apparent at low levels and you gain armor by level along with an armor evolution that gives you 2 ac for 1 evolution point).
Generally the result is a high damage, moderately tanky monstrosity, and the answer to dealing with it is "focus the summoner." Focus the squishy summoning it and the combat monster goes away. Synthesis this isn't possible because the combat monster is LITERALLY around the summoner. You can't hurt the summoner until you get through the eidolon.
Think of it like this, you build a wizard, then put him inside a fighter. Normally you could beat down uber wizard pretty easily but now he's got bonus hp equivalent to having an additional character, and a fighter at that around him, along with the ac of a high ac fighter.
Except when the Wizard is not spellcasting (because he's too busy playing Fighter) he's significantly less powerful. Doing damage to things is the absolute least effective way of dealing with most problems, especially when you could be warping reality to your liking. Whereas the normal Summoner is a Wizard with a Fighter pet, and can do both things in every round, but obviously can be more easily stopped because of it.
I think that a lot of the hate Synthesists get is because they're effectively a martial class that isn't completely stuck doing I ATTACK, with options like Pounce, Flight and various other awesome tools already built-in. And while I'm not claiming anyone here is specifically saying that, I know a good number of people who will flip their tops if any martials get any nice things.
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The thing is, however, a Summoner has all the drawbacks of Spontaneous spellcasters. Way fewer spells known, and very few spells to cast per day. So while they may be a really tanky Wizard, I've never, ever seen a Synthesist played as such. They just can't sustain playing like that outside of a 15-min adventuring day.
Every Synthesist I've played with would toss a buff at the beginning of a fight, and then go charge in to attack things (generally whiffing terribly due to low starting Str and 3/4 BAB).
I built a level 10 synth with 29 strength without even trying much and it had no gear. Granted, it had the large evolution but large creature's can squeeze mostly anywhere.
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The thing is, however, a Summoner has all the drawbacks of Spontaneous spellcasters. Way fewer spells known, and very few spells to cast per day. So while they may be a really tanky Wizard, I've never, ever seen a Synthesist played as such. They just can't sustain playing like that outside of a 15-min adventuring day.
Every Synthesist I've played with would toss a buff at the beginning of a fight, and then go charge in to attack things (generally whiffing terribly due to low starting Str and 3/4 BAB).
** spoiler omitted **
Really? Its not terribly hard to get a 16 strength right out of the gates and its effectively a high BAB class until 4th level so I don't see what the problem is. It wouldn't have a much worse to hit than a fighter at level 1 either. Plus you're get another +2 strength by 5th level for free and then 6th level you can purchase another +2 strength.
Edit:
** spoiler omitted **
Really. It's likely bad luck with dice rolls, but most of the Synthesist I've played with (I have only had two combats with my own Synthesist, and she seems to have a roughly 50/50 hit/miss ratio so far) have felt pretty weak in their ability to actually land blows.
That whole sentence was anecdotal evidence, and I just wanted to supply it as to why I feel about the Synthesist as I do. In my experience, they have never been stronger than the rest of the party combined, and instead, were helpful members of the group who had just as much screentime as everybody else.
As far as the alternate Wild Shape stuff, I personally want to stay as far away from 3.5 material as possible. Most of the DMs I play with tend to feel the same way.
I built a level 10 synth with 29 strength without even trying much and it had no gear. Granted, it had the large evolution but large creature's can squeeze mostly anywhere.
I am speaking from my own experience, in which I have actually only ever extensively played characters between levels 1 and 5. I once played a level 10 in a one-shot, but I don't think that really counts. I will say, however, that your 29 Strength Synthesist may indeed do just fine at hitting things, he's still may have had troubles in earlier levels.
They're not steal the show type people. However, they have the flexibility with things like evolution surge and transmogrify to co-star in most settings with little difficulty. All else failing they can pretty much summon or gate it anything they can't do themselves as well. This ability can cause a lot of jealousy. A wizard is cool and powerful but he still can't tank. A dedicated tank generally can't cast spells. The synth is a single character that can flow inbetween for most purposes.
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That doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I honestly can't see why people would get frustrated or angry about the guy in their party, who they are ostensibly friends with, being able to help the party through lots of disparate situations.
It's like some people would rather fail.
More like the players want to feel special in their own role. It's an understandable feeling. It's a large reason why people ask each other what class they're playing before the first session. They want to each shine in their own way. When other player encroach upon that then feelings can cloud judgement.
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Yeah, I just can't wrap my mind around the concept. I'm at the table (not literally, as I play mostly PbP games, but you know what I mean) because I want to play PF in a group. I don't care if my buddy is better at picking locks than me, or if another guy is better at fighting than me, because we're a team. Even the Synthesist can't cover everything all by themselves.
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I have a rule in my game called "The Rule of the Village", wherein if you're deemed "too weird to exist" by a town of ordinary villagers, then they burn you at the stake for fear of dark magic. You can't be too careful in a world of high fantasy, especially with adventurers around.
All my games start in a village.
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I have a rule in my game called "The Rule of the Village", wherein if you're deemed "too weird to exist" by a town of ordinary villagers, then they burn you at the stake for fear of dark magic. You can't be too careful in a world of high fantasy, especially with adventurers around.
All my games start in a village.
...Yeah, that sounds pretty nofunallowed to me.
I don't want to actually have to read through and figure out how it would work and THEN decide if it was too strong for my campaigns.
At least TOZ here is honest about it. There's nothing wrong with this, either, as being a DM is a difficult enough endeavor, without having trying to wrap your head around things like eidolons and such.
So you only allow the fighter, rogue and maybe monk in your campaigns? :P
...Yeah, that sounds pretty nofunallowed to me.I have a rule in my game called "The Rule of the Village", wherein if you're deemed "too weird to exist" by a town of ordinary villagers, then they burn you at the stake for fear of dark magic. You can't be too careful in a world of high fantasy, especially with adventurers around.
All my games start in a village.
Compared to the tribe of wolf-folk living just outside my group's Kingmaker kingdom, the region to the north that's full of monstrous humanoids (harpies, minotaurs, centaurs, etc.), the mountains to the southwest where the semi-fey bird-folk reside, and the kingdom far to the east where a Drider* serves as the high priestess of the (Lawful Good) church of Arachne, I don't consider a Synthesist all that weird, myself ;)
Freaky-looking magic armor? It's semi-transparent, you can still see the presumably-normal-looking dude inside. He's not that weird. The guy we buy our ore from is a kobold and we get our timber from lizardmen.
I've seem the Synthesist Summoner in my game. I found it weaker than the regular Synthesist. Sure the Synthesist could replace the fighter, in the game it did take the front melee role as there was an Inquisitor, Alchemist, Wizard and Synthesist Summoner.
The big difference I found was the Synthesist only one set of actions. The Summoner set his Edilon attacking while he was casting. So 2 actions to the Synthesist 1 action.
The Synthesist in this game just became the fighter of the group who through a haste spell as they headed into combat. I was playing the Inquisitor, I was actually more powerful than the Synthesist.
I think GMs ban this archetype as knew jerk reaction to reading it. In play it's actually less powerful than the regular Summoner.
Not to mention that I have yet to see a player successfully use their muscles to detect traps or resist spells.
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The same reason i ban the summoner, too much work and too easy to mess up.
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My group allowed syntesist once...
Found syntesist extremely broken. Only a natural 20 could hit him. twice the number of HP of some of the others chars - not that it mattered since they didn't get hit.
Extremely dangeous and just got more and more attack.
On the bright side - didn't need loot, but even with above WBL non-syntesist didn't matter. They made no real chance. There was nothing the syntesist couldn't do in combat.
The Summoner was a very bold idea that didn't quite work out.
QFT!
When I saw this class the first time I thought that it would lead to ridiculous min-maxing that would have to be dampened by a plethora of confusing restrictions that half the people would forget about anyways.
Now I think that under normal circumstances the systhesist is actually weaker than the "normal" summoner. It is just the the two combined into one lead to even more min maxing and the fact that the fighter in the group is absolutely obsolete, mechanics wise.
The only campaign that I would allow a synth summoner is in a steampunk world where I (as the GM) build the Eidolon-Armor.
I do not second this in most campaigns. Around 6th level the fighter is one of the strongest chars and certainly not obsolete unless an Eidolon is around that hase an AC that is 5-8 higher and double hitpoints and attacks.
The only campaign that I would allow a synth summoner is in a steampunk world where I (as the GM) build the Eidolon-Armor.
I've always liked this interpretation, with the Eidolon as a Construct rather than an Outsider. So you either have a robot buddy, or an Iron Man suit.
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The only campaign that I would allow a synth summoner is in a steampunk world where I (as the GM) build the Eidolon-Armor.I've always liked this interpretation, with the Eidolon as a Construct rather than an Outsider. So you either have a robot buddy, or an Iron Man suit.
I wish they would just implement this concept as a class. But with the stated fear of class bloat, sadly I don't see it happening.
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I played this character from level 2-18 and in the lower levels i was carried through combat but excelled being a face as an old kind lady using her pet to emulate her old armor from her paladin glory days. Mid to high levels i could not be touched and when buffed by party bard and wizard i tore through enemies. The character even participated once in the demon/devil war were i slowly chewed my way through both demons and devils with out even being touched by spell or blade. Those that say the class is weak at high levels clearly have never played in high level games. Btw the reason for the 2 (insert feat here) is because those were 3.5 feats since the character was in a game using pathfinde rules but 3.5 PrCs, Feats, and rules that dont exists in pathfinder like the army battle rules and kingdom construction.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40
AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (x4 = 8ac)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
Btw there are spells that get rid of the penalties of old age just to let u know.
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For all of the class archetypes in the UM book (including the entire Magus class as well), there are 21 points of FAQ/errata. 10 of those FAQ/errata are for the Synthesist.
I don't want to print out 2 tricking pages of rules clarifications just for one archetype...
i think there are three reasons GMs ban them:
1- they're outlawed in PFS play (there must be a reason, so i'll do it too)
2- they've heard how super badass they are and it's a knee jerk, or
3- they've seen it abused
i think probably too many fall into the first 2 categories, but it can be abused for sure. level for level, the synthesist is less powerful than a standard summoner (for reasons already mentioned- primarily, action economy). however, where summoners are probably the worst class to multiclass with (since you stunt your pet, and your SLAs), synthesist are great at it- and that's where the real abuse comes in... it screws up a point buy because they can basically dump Str and Dex, and there are too many benefits you can grab quickly (not to mention the extra evolution feat...) here's an example-
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For all of the class archetypes in the UM book (including the entire Magus class as well), there are 21 points of FAQ/errata. 10 of those FAQ/errata are for the Synthesist.
I don't want to print out 2 tricking pages of rules clarifications just for one archetype...
U can always link a link to the page with said FAQ/erratas.
They're simply too strong. I've seen an optimized synthesist at work from level 6 to 12 and it was utterly ridiculous. Without good items (we were below the average wealth by level from lvl9 to 12) he was untouchable by plenty of monsters, had great saves, did loads of damage and simply felt like a fighter+caster rolled into one with extra benefits.
Being able to completely reshuffle points when you level also means you have a significant edge over a lot of classes that got to plan everything out from lvl1 and on.
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They're simply too strong. I've seen an optimized synthesist at work from level 6 to 12 and it was utterly ridiculous. Without good items (we were below the average wealth by level from lvl9 to 12) he was untouchable by plenty of monsters, had great saves, did loads of damage and simply felt like a fighter+caster rolled into one with extra benefits.
Being able to completely reshuffle points when you level also means you have a significant edge over a lot of classes that got to plan everything out from lvl1 and on.
Besides the untouchable part (and everyone can roll Nat 20s, btw), a standard Summoner is just as good at all of those things, except he's doing twice as much. If a Synthesist is too strong, what about real Full Casters?
Synthesists may not have huge, glaring weaknesses, but they absolutely aren't the kind of unstoppable behemoths most people who dislike them seem to claim.