| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
The synthesist... a summoner archtype that has been (and still is) a bone of contention in these forums. But now is the time for the synthesist to rise out of the morass of a bad implementation and shine as as it should.
The biggest problems with it the synthesist for me are:
- The blatant disregard for the current polymorph rules, by which I mean ability score replacement rather than addition. This leads to synthesist characters to use strength and dexterity as dump stats. But a bigger problem is that you can't build a better fused synthesist. One with more than the 13 Con at first level (before evolutions).
- The huge number of hit points
- Clunky "how to heal a synthesists fused eidolon" healing rules
In Synthesist Reborn I have recreated the archtype. While it looks mostly the same the biggest points of change (among others) are:
- The eidolon base form gives a bonus to physical ability scores rather than a straight up replacement.
- No more temporary hit points. Just a nice bonus to Constitution.
- The fused synthesist can use the eidolon heal spells on himself. (Which makes up for the lower number of hp it now has).
- No base attack replacement. This confused more people than it helped.
- Bonus feats which can only be used while fused.
Also this version incorporates some FAQ rulings for the current synthesist.
Any comments are welcome. The Synthesist Reborn is by no means set in stone. Hopefully one day this version will be used instead of the current more clunky one...
Just of note, Parting Gift is a bit off. Starting at 1d8 and increasing by +1d8 at multiples of 4 gives maxes at 6d8 at 20, not 5d8. I think you'd want 5, 10 and so on to be the increase to get the same max.
Anyway though, that's a minor nitpick. Overall, I like it. Clean and simple.
|
Okay, had a chance to look over it, and I like it.
Others will be able to cast Cure Light Wounds and the like on the Summoner without worrying about the eidolon not getting healed by it, right? That's an awesome change that I'm totally down with.
I'm not completely sold on not getting the eidolon's BAB, but otherwise it looks pretty nifty. I also agree that completely replacing the Summoner's physical stats is a dumb idea that should have stayed in 3.5.
All in all, this looks pretty legit, and I may try running this by the DM of the PbP game I'm playing my Synthesist in. She'll be a weaker combatant for it, but it's a sacrifice I could live with.
Dotting. Will take a look at the document tomorrow.
@Seranov: Technically the Eidolon's BAB is merely the 3/4 BAB front-loaded rather than back-loaded. It has the greatest effect at first level. For that matter, honestly, the potential difference in Str & Dex Mods will have a greater effect at first level in my opinion.
After I take a closer look I may also try & talk my GM into allowing it for my Synthesist.
|
|
Right, I'm aware. It's just most of my playtime has been at level 1, so it's a reasonably big deal.
And you are right, the Str/Dex changes are likely to make a bigger difference. My level 5 Synthesist would likely have her total attack bonus go from +8 to +6, which would be a pretty significant decrease.
That's okay, though, because while I don't think the Synthesist is that crazy as-is, I can definitely see a simplifying of the rules regarding the archetype to be nothing but beneficial.
Funny working on something like this myself already.
I think it is pretty good. It certainly adresses some of the problems with the Synthesist.
However, I think you need to consider how some evolutions work, especially the size increases. At huge, getting +20 str on top of your own, can become even more crazy than being able to dumbstat your original str.
From a min-max perspective, I am concerned with the fact that your version has immense level dip potential for martial characters.
For example a Barbarian, could get an equivalent of the entire Beast totem line + animal fury + 4 extra con and 2 extra dex/str, with a single level dip.
@Darkwolf117: Very nice and subtle catch. Changed to 6d8 at lvl 20.
@Seranov: as Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal pointed out the BAB is still 3/4 and one level behind the synthesists BAB anyway. The main reason this is dropped is because it is confusing "replacing" BAB and people usually get it wrong especially with respects to multiclassing. Also since the synthesist is no longer swapping out the physical ability scores it makes sense to build the synthesist with a higher base Str/Dex/Con. Deciding which, if any stat you want to use as a dump stat becomes relevant again. If changing to this version mid-campaign, I would suggest a stat rebuild.
@Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus: Further suggestions are always welcome.
@HaraldKlak: Excellent point about the 1 level dip for martials. To an extent this was a problem already with the old synthesist. More so with this version. Any suggestions on how to fix this?
To all: Thanks for the interest. I too will am begging my GM to play this version, which is why I want to get any unforeseen wrinkles ironed out.
|
|
I'd imagine size increases would work the way they do normally, just adding an additional amount of strength on top of what the eidolon would give otherwise. Where are you getting +20 from?
@Seranov: as Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal pointed out the BAB is still 3/4 and one level behind the synthesists BAB anyway. The main reason this is dropped is because it is confusing "replacing" BAB and people usually get it wrong especially with respects to multiclassing. Also since the synthesist is no longer swapping out the physical ability scores it makes sense to build the synthesist with a higher base Str/Dex/Con. Deciding which, if any stat you want to use as a dump stat becomes relevant again. If changing to this version mid-campaign, I would suggest a stat rebuild.
Akane has 11 Str, 10 Dex and 14 Con, which would put her at 15 Str, 13 Dex and 18 Con in Eidolon form under your rules, instead of 16/16/14. I can totally live with such a stat spread.
I've actually PM'd my DM about it, so we'll see how it goes. :)
I'd imagine size increases would work the way they do normally, just adding an additional amount of strength on top of what the eidolon would give otherwise. Where are you getting +20 from?
I get the +20 from +16 size for Huge and +4 from base form.
While being huge does give a ...huge... strength bonus, I really don't see this as a problem. A synthesist needs to be lvl 13 minimum and spend 10 evo points of his 17 available. That doesn't leave much for your actual attacks. It's the classes main feature. It should be good. And being huge comes with its own drawbacks.
The bigger problem is the 1st lvl dip. The one solution is having the fusion only function for a number of rounds per day until say level 4 where it lasts indefinitly. Why level 4? since this is when a synthesist gets access to the summon eidolon spell. Other suggestions are welcome.
@HaraldKlak: Excellent point about the 1 level dip for martials. To an extent this was a problem already with the old synthesist. More so with this version. Any suggestions on how to fix this?
The easy solution, in homes games, is just to disallow dipping into it.
A more generel fix could be to introduce a limited duration, such as 1 hour per class level, usable in 1-hour increments. It would be a nerf for the low level synthesist, but since he got his summons, he shouldn't be useless.
Even as I suggested it, I would prefer not to have a limited duration, but if no other better solution presents itself then that is what it will have to be.
Another thought it to introduce a threshold hp value for first few levels of synthesist. When a character has lost that number from his current total hit points the eidolon is banished. 10hp per eidolon HD seems like a good threshold value. so a 1 level dip into synth will generally result in the eidolon poping after a single hit. Thoughts?
You get uses per day up to your charisma modifier. Each use lasts 10 minutes per class level. Summoning the synthesists Eidalon is a full round action.
A reasonable suggestion. Still duration based though.
The reasons I am against duration based fused eidolons are:
- removes the option for non-combat synthesists. small stealthy scout/tracking synthesist.
- the whole point of the archtype. Your character actually gets to be the Angel/Dragon/Demon you have always wanted to play.
But as mentioned earlier, if no other succinct method can be found to prevent gaining too much bonus from dipping (other than house-ruling "no dipping") the duration solution will probably have to go in.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A reasonable suggestion. Still duration based though.
The reasons I am against duration based fused eidolons are:
- removes the option for non-combat synthesists. small stealthy scout/tracking synthesist.
- the whole point of the archtype. Your character actually gets to be the Angel/Dragon/Demon you have always wanted to play.
But as mentioned earlier, if no other succinct method can be found to prevent gaining too much bonus from dipping (other than house-ruling "no dipping") the duration solution will probably have to go in.
Plus I found it brought the class ability a little too close to barbarian rage as well.
Well, you get to become a human surrounded in some visible translucent form of an angel / dragon / demon that doesn't look like any other creature known to man...But close enough...
Here's another idea to solve the 1 level dip issue. Tentative Hold: If the fused synthesist takes more than tentative hold damage in a single blow (whether from an attack, trap or falling), the eidolon is banished.
This tentative hold value starts at 10 at lvl 1 and increases by 5 for each level beyond first to 45 at lvl 8. At lvl 9 this restriction is removed. (Massive damage rules will take over from there)
Thoughts?
@Cheapy and Artanthos: I altered the text slightly so that you can choose a more solid-looking "skin". The translucence was a put off for a few people.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
translucentYou do realize the list of translucent items includes marble, jade, milk, the earths atmosphere and humans.
Usage of this word was very poorly chosen.
And yet the intent is crystal clear :)
And yet the intent is crystal clear :)translucentYou do realize the list of translucent items includes marble, jade, milk, the earths atmosphere and humans.
Usage of this word was very poorly chosen.
Cheapy, I saw right through that.
Off putting or not, it was done for balance reasons, namely ensuring that enemies still knew they could use humanoid-affecting spells on them. So as long as that's still clear and that the synth isn't just some crazy magical beast from hell, you should be good.
Off putting or not, it was done for balance reasons, namely ensuring that enemies still knew they could use humanoid-affecting spells on them. So as long as that's still clear and that the synth isn't just some crazy magical beast from hell, you should be good.
I somehow really doubt this was done for any reason other than flavour and kewl glowy looks. Besides that is what knowledge checks were for... And there is still a blazing large arcane mark on the things forehead.
I was just repeating what I was told when I asked about it. My original theory on can be found below, but I always thought that designers tended to not just add important details like that for no reason.
Off putting or not, it was done for balance reasons, namely ensuring that enemies still knew they could use humanoid-affecting spells on them. So as long as that's still clear and that the synth isn't just some crazy magical beast from hell, you should be good.I somehow really doubt this was done for any reason other than flavour and kewl glowy looks. Besides that is what knowledge checks were for... And there is still a blazing large arcane mark on the things forehead.
Knowledge check = It's and Eidolon, not it's a synthesist's eidolon. If you can't see the person inside it, you can't know that Charm Person will still work.
@Cheapy, Azten: Fair enough. Updated the text to reflect the auto-recognition.
Dotting this. Must sleep now, also must check it out later.
v1.1: Added Tentative Grasp and Eidolon Affinity abilities. Will leave these in until such time that another mechanic comes along that solves the level dipping problem.
FYI I am specifically NOT reading this so I wont accidentally steal anything from you. Best of luck.
Feel free to steal (and link it from here). More options are always better imo.
Looks interesting.
My own take would have been to give the summoner the eidolon's physical stat bonuses as enhancement bonuses to the stats when fused instead of fixed bonuses.
@kyrt-ryder Without discouraging the level dipping you get the equivalent of a permanent rage with no drawbacks as well as the entire Beast totem line of rage feats. And it doesn't take away the option of multiclassing. But as I mentioned earlier, if you can think of another way (that isn't based on a duration) feel free to post it.
@Umbranus. Simple, yet limiting. I actually rather like it. Though I don't think this will replacement the "don't level dip me" ability.
@soupturtle You sound delicious. ;) Ok back to your comments: Yes you can get nice physical stats and be a monster in melee (pun intended). Previously the synthesist didn't have the choice to dump physical stats. It was effectively a strong as well as smart character. With this change, the synthesist can be even stronger but at the price of being not so smart. Also with Umbranus's fix, a normal eidolon could have equivalent strength while using magical items to boost Str.
Thoughts: First of all, I love the concept. I'm probably going to actually use this in my own game because I have a synthesist will'o'wisp that's going to be a recurring enemy, and it is built to specifically take advantage of the stat replacement of the normal synthesist, but if any of my PCs ask me about being one, I may scrap that plan and use this instead.
That being said, here's some feedback::
Parting gift feels poorly worded. I've tried to make it sound a little more standard:
At 1st level, when a fused eidolon is banished for any reason, the synthesist may choose to heal 1d8 + his fused Constitution modifier points of damage a moment before it vanishes. At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter this increases by 1d8 to a maximum of 6d8+Con at 20th level. The snythesist may only heal in this way once per day, but he may make this choice regardless of whether he is asleep or unconscious. This ability replaces life link.
I also don't like Tentative Grasp. I don't think it discourages dipping at all - all it does is discourage making a build based entirely on the one-level dip (such as "Dump strength for my melee barb because I get it all back from the dip"). Basically, you go into every combat with a buff that lasts until you get hit. So a high AC character might go the whole combat without losing it, and even a normal AC one still is boosted for a few initial rounds (combine with an initial rage/charge/pounce combo...) I don't think duration factors are the way to do it either. I don't have any better suggestions at the moment, though. I'll think on it and see if I can come up with something.
The main issue with dipping I believe is pounce and the natural attacks. Why not start out restricting them to be bipedal since they aren't sure about the limits of their power. Later, they can change the base form to be something else? Maybe as a one time thing, or perhaps every X levels you can change base forms.
@Bobson: I thank you for your parting gift. :) I mostly agree about Tentative Grasp, it does need a better ability. I disagree about the high AC classes since it is any damage that will make the eidolon pop not just normal attacks. As for pounce... see below
@Cheapy: The natural attacks aren't really an issue since they are limited in number. And while pounce is an annoying problem (I think the evolution should have had a level requirement to begin with) taking away base forms shuts out some perfectly valid and interesting synthesist builds, like a synthesist that wants to be another characters "mount".
Perhaps the Tentative Grasp ability can be extended to limit some more annoying evolutions... like pounce? though which other evolutions besides pounce cause a problem?
That solution doesn't shuts out those types of builds. It just delays them. But maybe wanting to be another character's mount is just too weird for me.
That solution doesn't shuts out those types of builds. It just delays them. But maybe wanting to be another character's mount is just too weird for me.
If its a level 1 game, it is effectively shut out. I would prefer to just limit choosing pounce until later. Biped eidolon is the stronger choice (ignoring pounce). And there will be no end of jokes about being a mount for another character...
Updated to 1.2.
I decided to take a staggered approach so that there is less front loading instead of taking a "negative" ability. So a 4th level synthesist reborn will be equivalent to the old 4th level synthesist with regards to attributes and access to evolutions.
Changes:
- Removed tentative grasp negative ability.
- At 1st level all base forms only provide half their normal attribute and natural armor increases. At level 3 it gets the other half.
- At 1st level evolutions that require base forms cannot be taken (e.g. pounce, mount, constrict etc.) These are enabled again at 4th level.
- Allies spells now also positively effect the synthesist.
What does this mean? A 1 level dip is less attractive: less stat boost and no pounce. A 4 level Synthesist barbarian will still be scary but 4 levels can hardly be classified as a "dip" anymore.
Looks good.
Now, if we can get an official errata, maybe we can get synthesist back into PFS. (I can dream.)
After PFS disallowed the synthesist (why not grandfather it? whyyy?!), even my home games have been synthesist-less. I am sad now.