Ahhh I see that now, my apologies for mis-understanding the stance you were taking.NP. My point has always been "treat women as equals at the table, not as some strange creature that needs special attention, care, or even segregation". I don't think most female gamers want to be seen as FEMALE gamers, but rather as female GAMERS, or better yet, just gamers. If they are new to the game or new to GMing, teach and advise them like you would anyone else that is new. If they are experienced at the game, respect that experience the same as you would anyone else's. Bring more gamers of all kinds into the hobby, including female gamers, but don't include them by excluding everyone else.
Some have characterized this as "denying there's a problem" but I don't see it that way... I think treating female gamers differently IS the problem. Treating them like a piece of meat, or like a child, or like she's invisible, or like she's extra-special, or she needs to be sheltered, or myriad other ways in which she isn't just "one of the people playing a game with us", she's 'different'.
But like I said, that's just my opinion.
I think actually, it's a very enlightened viewpoint to have and one I'm glad to see. You are I are generally saying the same things lol, just using different wordings.
|
Ahhh I see that now, my apologies for mis-understanding the stance you were taking.NP. My point has always been "treat women as equals at the table, not as some strange creature that needs special attention, care, or even segregation". I don't think most female gamers want to be seen as FEMALE gamers, but rather as female GAMERS, or better yet, just gamers. If they are new to the game or new to GMing, teach and advise them like you would anyone else that is new. If they are experienced at the game, respect that experience the same as you would anyone else's. Bring more gamers of all kinds into the hobby, including female gamers, but don't include them by excluding everyone else.
Some have characterized this as "denying there's a problem" but I don't see it that way... I think treating female gamers differently IS the problem. Treating them like a piece of meat, or like a child, or like she's invisible, or like she's extra-special, or she needs to be sheltered, or myriad other ways in which she isn't just "one of the people playing a game with us", she's 'different'.
But like I said, that's just my opinion.
That is exactly how i feel. treat people like people and that is it
The key points that SKR listed on the first page of this thread are great ones. Don't make rape, appearance, forced breeding, sex, etc, part of the game. I would take a page from Women In Refrigerators and say that any area where violence or inequality against women, even NPC women is a key point, isn't a good idea. Here are some suggestions I have for Pathfinder only: you can disagree.
-Do you really need Arazni turned into a 'sexy lich' against her will? Presumably she is Geb's undead sex slave. Yuck.
-Ogres and ogrekin and anything else that causes/results of rape of human or humanoid females. See, here's the thing. If Paizo itself uses rape as a plot point, it gives permission for the players to do the same thing. Would a female character feel extra threatened going through The Hook Mountain Massacre? Perhaps this has been discussed to death in your opinion; if I recall people have said stuff like "but the men can be raped toooo!!111one". Ah, but they can't be forced to breed, can they?
-Half-orcs. Someone upstream in the thread pointed them out to be essentially "rape children". Now, this is not written out explicitly anywhere, but it's implied. Maybe the E-word isn't cool with you, but I like taking a page from Eberron and making half-orcs with, wow, two half-orc parents, who might just actually care for their children. (Same for half-elves.) This is hardly game-breaking. They can still be shunned, despised outcasts; take a look at the history of people referred to as "mestizos" or "mulattoes"; there have been large populations of mixed-raced humans who weren't the product of rape one generation above them and still were marginalized.
Well, I may get a backlash from this, but those are my suggestions. Paizo already leads the way in many ways, and could correct these things or take a conscious effort to balance them in the future. E.g. give the half-orcs some non-brutish feats and traits to choose from, just to give players a choice. I mean, the half-orc iconic's birth was handwaved away probably because no one wanted to deal with it.
Perhaps most of you already houserule this stuff to a minimum, but take a look at your characters. How many were the outcast child of a prostitute or a bitter dude whose wife was killed? It's the little things. Yeah, it reflects the hard, violent world of Pathfinder, but we don't need real world verisimilitude for everything. In the real world, men are stronger than women, and that was removed many years ago from these kinds of RPGs.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, but treating people like people also means listening to them and not dismissing them or their ideas/requests out of hand. If a person says ke would feel more comfortable doing things one way, ke probably has a reason for it.
Talk to them, not at them. Listen to the replies. Don't assume. Be prepared to compromise.
Every time I see the world "privilege" I open my wallet and look for the White Straight Male Card that supposedly gets me all this awesome stuff just because of my gender and race and orientation. That I'll be invited into some executive squash club full of backrubs from beautiful women and champagne.
And then I look down at the bowl of cheap ramen in my hands, and think about my minimum wage overnight job of unloading trucks, and worry about being able to pay the water bill before it gets cut off and how I can't afford to subscribe to the AP's anymore.
If I am going to get flak for "privilege", I at least want to be able to enjoy some of it. So could the White Male club send me one of those cards? Please?
You don't get a card because you don't need one for people to know you.
I think people keep getting worked up over the word "privilege" because they don't know what it really means. Just gonna quote Sean here:
Let's take a look at each of your examples if you were a female:
You could have been beaten up in school and molested or raped by other students.
You could have been drugged against your will and raped.
You could have had rocks shoved in your face and had your body violated in ways that no man can ever experience.
You could have been vomiting in the desert and been told that you could quit at any time because that would prove you weren't as strong as a man.
You could have been denied disability while pregnant.
As a Straight White Male, you don't have to fear repercussions as much. I was at a bar last night. It was late, and there were only like 5 other people there. Some guys were laughing and getting loud talking about Nascar, and "that slut, Danica Patrick". I wanted to say something, and regret not saying anything, but being 'that queer at the bar by himself' wasn't going to earn me any points protecting me from getting beat up outside.
And that's just being queer; it would have been exponentially more dangerous to say something to them had I been a woman, or non-white. Do you see where I'm going with this? The privileged is there in front of you, but you don't see it.
The worst part was when I noted that the woman sitting at their table, and the woman at the bar both recoiled at the same time, but feared saying anything to the guy, either. They would have feared being called names and told to shut up to "put them in their place", like I did. They would also have feared being assaulted outside after they left to "put them in their place", like I did.
But I wouldn't have to had to fear them raping me outside to "put me in my place", like those women would have.
Privilege is a silent position of power - if I had been the bartender, I could have, and would have, said something, because I would be a step above the straight white male, and he would have felt dominated by me. Its all a power play.
What's your "place" and why do people want to "put you there"? Here's the power level situation breakdown for you:
Bartender > loud straight white guy > queer white guy > woman
Do you see your privilege now?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the real world, women can stand so much more physical pain than men.
One more time this men are stronger argument anywhere and i´m gonna puke.
You want to be a good GM? That includes talking to your players before the game and getting to know them and their limits. If you are planning on playing an adult game with heavy content in a dark setting, you should communicate that. The players can then consider for themselves if they like it or not. Or they can tell you even in private or by a message, hey listen i have issues with this and that, but i want to participate. You as a GM can then adapt.
I totally agree with your stuff mostly, but i would not put that out of the game by default. Neither would i force things onto the players they are uncomfortable with. Players build the PC´s and their story, GM checks it. While the game has a past, it changed a lot.
And there communication is key. A person not communicating cannot be helped. If you go somewhere nobody knows you and you don´t tell your limits or issues, how are others supposed to know them? That´s not even faintly gender-specific.
Even if something happens that somehow offends you while gaming, just open your mouth and say ok off-play now, i´m not ok with that.
It´s very simple and it has nothing to do with privilege.
Just open your mouth and say you are not ok with something. You can give a explanation, but you essentially don´t have to.
For example you can just say that you don´t like sexual violence in your game.
Might be the case that it´s a relevant thing for all other players and the GM in a certain group, then you can either stick to it or leave the group. But more likely they will say ok, good to know, we will consider this for the future.
Hayato Ken, the opening your mouths and speaking up harkens back to my wallflowers comment.. we only become wallflowers if we let outselves become that... and that goes for both men and women in gaming.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The key points that SKR listed on the first page of this thread are great ones. Don't make rape, appearance, forced breeding, sex, etc, part of the game. I would take a page from Women In Refrigerators and say that any area where violence or inequality against women, even NPC women is a key point, isn't a good idea. Here are some suggestions I have for Pathfinder only: you can disagree.
-Do you really need Arazni turned into a 'sexy lich' against her will? Presumably she is Geb's undead sex slave. Yuck.
-Ogres and ogrekin and anything else that causes/results of rape of human or humanoid females. See, here's the thing. If Paizo itself uses rape as a plot point, it gives permission for the players to do the same thing. Would a female character feel extra threatened going through The Hook Mountain Massacre? Perhaps this has been discussed to death in your opinion; if I recall people have said stuff like "but the men can be raped toooo!!111one". Ah, but they can't be forced to breed, can they?
-Half-orcs. Someone upstream in the thread pointed them out to be essentially "rape children". Now, this is not written out explicitly anywhere, but it's implied. Maybe the E-word isn't cool with you, but I like taking a page from Eberron and making half-orcs with, wow, two half-orc parents, who might just actually care for their children. (Same for half-elves.) This is hardly game-breaking. They can still be shunned, despised outcasts; take a look at the history of people referred to as "mestizos" or "mulattoes"; there have been large populations of mixed-raced humans who weren't the product of rape one generation above them and still were marginalized.
Well, I may get a backlash from this, but those are my suggestions. Paizo already leads the way in many ways, and could correct these things or take a conscious effort to balance them in the future. E.g. give the half-orcs some non-brutish feats and traits to choose from, just to give players a...
See here is the thing when I as a GM try to get into the mind of truely vile evil people(like Geb) or races(like orgers and orcs as described in the setting) I think of evil things they might do...rape is a vile and evil thing...so sometimes I'll have that threat there. And I threaten both male and female characters with it. Has it actualy happened in my game...heck no.
Now if any player says this taboo to them and really don't want it to happen in threat in game it would not. That is the one area which I won't touch on if the players don't want to.
If a player try to have is character rape anybody...they are out of my game instantly. As in I say," Leave now. You no longer welcome in my games." No warning they are gone. I don't run evil games.
I am wondering does other media such as novels, movies, etc that include rape as a evil thing gets the same flak? I mean of the negative views of Games of Thrones one of them is not that they is rape in the book. Though admittly I don't read alot of reviews period.
Hey John, I get that NPC, 'backstory' type stuff might get a pass, but I consider it worth noting. Especially with half-orcs.
Regarding novels and movies, it's about whether something serves the story. You can't have THE ACCUSED, or IRREVERSIBLE, or THE PRINCE OF TIDES, without talking about rape. Or something like Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever (maybe), if we're talking fantasy novels.
So, does abuse of women serve the story in a game? Perhaps we can think of a reasonable case. Perhaps not. Then, review: Is it really necessary? Are people using these themes of female exploitation (see Women In Refrigerators above), with an explanation of "but it's evil and shocking", so many times that it becomes tiresome and annoying and drives away female readers/viewers/gamers? It's worth considering.
I went to TotalCon in Mansfield, Mass. on Saturday and there were tons of chicks. Not just a few, tons.
Yes, I know, you guys don't like "chicks," but I don't play your party games.
Hey John, I get that NPC, 'backstory' type stuff might get a pass, but I consider it worth noting. Especially with half-orcs.
Regarding novels and movies, it's about whether something serves the story. You can't have THE ACCUSED, or IRREVERSIBLE, or THE PRINCE OF TIDES, without talking about rape. Or something like Thomas Covenant The Unbeliever (maybe), if we're talking fantasy novels.
So, does abuse of women serve the story in a game? Perhaps we can think of a reasonable case. Perhaps not. Then, review: Is it really necessary? Are people using these themes of female exploitation (see Women In Refrigerators above), with an explanation of "but it's evil and shocking", so many times that it becomes tiresome and annoying and drives away female readers/viewers/gamers? It's worth considering.
Oh I defintly agree it should defintly serve a purpose other than just because.
Also to be fair with Pazio...they have taken a balance approach to this. There is atleast a half-dozen monsters they have made that reproduce with males of other species...Harpies and Night hags come to mind immediately...usualy using force or magic to prtetty much rape men. And not all of them are evil by nature(The Siren comes to mind).
And as I said...it is the only evil and vile thing that I'll not use without any comment on my part if anybody objects too.
|
|
And again we ignore the evidence of actual women posting describing the problems they've had and we ascribe it all to "rpgs are just a guy thing", or worse, "Women just need to toughen up and push back at the idiots". Even if that would help, it's not a solution to getting more women involved. We can't make that happen.
And if it really is just that rpgs are a male thing, why does the anecdotal evidence seem to show that there's a larger proportion of women in home games than in open game (organized play, game shops, cons, etc)? Those kind of games are the only ones Paizo, or the industry in general, can really affect, so it's those they should be looking at. If they aren't welcoming to women, that's a problem. But it's a problem that can be addressed more easily than home games can.
That i think is a mix of not playing with strangers, not being judged in public as a gamer, and that public gamer are often more combat focused mod play than deeper roleplaying that seems to be favored by most female gamers. Of course of of the biggest hack and slash players i have even known is a woman
Ok somewhere at about page 10 I gave up on reading this whole thread as it gets frequently derailed form its original purpose. I'll make a quick few points and ignore the obvious trolls.
How to get more females invovled in our hobby?
1) Based on mostly anecdotal evidence I see allot more females that are into animee than gaming. Ditto with board games like Settlers. Easiest way to find the appeal that isn't crossing over? Fund a study. Don't want to pony up the dough? Hire a grad student on the cheap as perhaps a paid intern, and launch a kickstarter campaign, throw insome PDFs you'll get funded.
2) I know allot of female gamers having both run a large larp and been involved with a few homebrew games where being male was putting you in the minority at the table. The reel in for most of the ladies? They started gaming in college. Encourage college cluns that run cons with more pathfinder support (like doing a booth) or special events for those colleges thru pathfinder society.
3) When I ran a larp I wanted to keep the girl guy ratio as close to 50/50 as I could and I wanted fresh blood in my game nigh constantly. The most successful way I found to do this? New player bounties, and they were higher for female gamers. PAizo could easilly institute a referal program for say pathfinder society and do a product or exp or heck even a forum tag bounty for recruiting more women to pathfinder society play. (I'll take the lumps I'm sure to get for suggesting this but it worked and the more women at my larp the more comfortable the other women at the larp were, the environment was extremely friendly.)
4) Start a social media campaign targetting women. Heck the girls that fuel franchises like Harry Potter, Twilight, and The Hunger Games are already part of the way there. Hate on it if you want guys but it draws on the same mythical sources as most of our fantasy fiction. TV ads are expensive, banner ads not so much, a female specific Facebook/Twitter fan page not so much, maybe some fun you tube videos not so much.
To bring a Terry Goodkind reference into play use Wizard's first rule. People believe what they are told, tell them that a huge wave of female gamers is coming into the hobby and people will believe it. Pop music does this constantly, this is the newest hit from so and so's album (really its a hit already I thought it was new.)
I went to TotalCon in Mansfield, Mass. on Saturday and there were tons of chicks. Not just a few, tons.
Yes, I know, you guys don't like "chicks," but I don't play your party games.
Huh. Well, the post I was responding to disappeared, but, yeah, from what I observed, the convention was 30-40% female--ranging from hipsters in Dr. Who hoodies and punk rock gear to sexy pirate-dressers to matronly grandmother types to your usual run-of-the-mill nerds of all varieties.
One of my dinner-mates also commented that he noticed a couple of guys hanging around the bathroom giving him "the look" as well.
As far as I am concerned, this is all as it should be.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Let's not bash the romance novels too much. One of my best friends writes them and I've gotten a bit of education on the topic. Compare to the stereotypical literary bashing of sf/fantasy not all that long ago. Sure, Sturgeon's Law applies, but it's not all crap. There's a wide range out there. From the strictly formulaic Harlequinesque stuff to much more literary romance.By the way, does anyone else find it super ironic (and frustrating) that people keep bringing up romance novels as a traditionally female interest?
Christ, people. ROMANCE NOVELS ARE PORN. Women tend to not broadcast that too clearly because there's tonnes of stigma around them having sexual agency, but I will say it again: ROMANCE NOVELS ARE PORN. You're not reading Playboy for the articles--nor are women reading romance novels for the stellar characterisation and plot.
There's also really high quality porn. I don't think Alice was bashing romance novels so much as trying to debunk the argument of 'Men like RPGs, women like romance novels'.
Seriously, can we PLEASE get on, and stay on the topic?
Jessica all but begged, Neil wrote a small novel asking you to stay on topic, moderators are actively nixing off topic posts. Maybe you need a non PAizo employeed white guy to tell you this but "dude not cool."
<many awesome things>
Great post, Neil, and thanks for the suggestions. Thanks as well to the many equally awesome people who've been posting very cool ideas. I'm still wading through them, as I have a lot to read through from over the weekend, but please know they are getting read and thought about.
For those still trying to prevent that useful discussion from happening by attempting to turn this into a debate over whether or not men (white men, straight men, or what have you) have privilege in gaming spaces, please take it to a different thread. I'm removing a few posts that, in that vein, are wholly off-topic.
EDIT: Ninjaed by Liz. :-)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oddly enough, I've had a number of my female friends on Facebook today (many of whom I met through gaming and the Paizo fan community) engage in a more constructive discussion there than the 800+ posts of filler occupying this forum. I think the sad thing about this topic is that people are too easily distracted...SQUIRREL!...or even baited into arguments or semantics. And, it seems like most of the new participants who venture here don't bother to read the entire thread. Subsequently, they fire off a position statement (because they feel obligated to share one) which then kicks off a series of rebuttals and hand-wringing that just bogs down the discussion.
If I can borrow a phrase from Star Wars..."Stay on target!" C'mon! It's not that hard. If folks could set aside the rehashing of topics that have either already been covered ad nauseum, or which add nothing to the goal of welcoming more female gamers into the hobby, we could actually make some progress. Instead, we're going in circles. I can probably count on one hand the number of posts that actually offered up any constructive ideas and ways to implement them so that we achieve the goal. Instead, everyone feels compelled to posture or assert a philosophy or opinion. But very few actual ideas.
So, maybe in the interests of time (and to take one more stab at this), how about if we establish the following things to be true and stop feeling the need to reassert them:
1) Some Ladies Can Handle Themselves - Yep. Not every female who gets into gaming is a delicate flower. Some are fully capable of fending for themselves, mixing it up with the boys, and giving as good as they get. Sexism directed towards them is dealt with straight away. Or, they've been lucky and never had to face it, because they've already got supportive players and GMs alongside them. Great. That doesn't mean there isn't a significant population of ladies who don't have a harder time with it. Many examples have been cited. The ratio of male-to-female gamers is still woefully out of whack in most gaming circles. So, the problem still exists, whether you've have to deal with it or not.
2) Men Have It Hard Too - Yep. There are plenty of guys who grew up getting ridiculed, threatened, and sometimes even pummeled or harrassed as gamers (or in other areas of life). Nobody's questioning that. But it's still got nothing to do with trying to encourage more women to enter the hobby. And this isn't the thread for male gamers to offer up all the ways they're offended by reverse discrimination or for them to share their frustrations with being painted with broad brushstrokes into being the bad guy by women who have had to face real discrimination and sexism. Again, it's not about you. It's about what women potentially face in this hobby and how to make it more open and welcoming to those who legitimately feel excluded and even offended at times, because of their gender.
3) Word Choice Can Be Key - Yep. From "privilege" to "guys" there are obviously plenty of words that are going to be touchstones for some people. Arguing against what those words mean according to dictionaries or individual interpretation isn't really going to get us anywhere. At best, it's just another element of the overall problem for why more women don't get into gaming...or don't feel welcome in gaming circles. It's fair to examine ways for getting past that, but I doubt the creation of a "safe word" list is going to get us there. At best, it's about changing attitudes and using a bit of commonsense to self-edit your choice of words. So, how about coming up with some ideas on how to do that instead of engaging in more word play for next 100 posts?
4) Some People Still Don't See A Problem - Yep. We're not going to win the battle of convincing everyone that a problem even exists. Some people like sticking their heads in the sand. Some are just myopic...or worse, part of the problem, because they truly don't recognize their behaviors are contributing to it. And, some are quite eager to convince the rest of us it's a lost cause or a pointless discussion. To these people, I would say you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, I don't understand why you feel compelled to continue sharing it with those who don't. Are you trying to change everyone else's minds in the hopes of somehow helping them? The only help that's been requested is for more ideas on how to make gaming more appealing to women and get them involved in the hobby. If your stance boils down to "keep doing what we're doing," that's a non-starter for those who believe the status quo isn't sufficient. So again, if you want to aid the discussion, come up with some ideas for doing things differently. And, if you don't want to aid the discussion, why are you here? This conversation isn't for you.
5) Treating Females Differently Can Create More Problems - Yep. That's entirely possible, if it's handled poorly. Look, no one is saying we're going to single out every woman at every gaming event and shine a spotlight on her and ask others to treat her like a delicate flower. Do you seriously think that's what people are suggesting? No. The idea of a women-only game night or a handful of women-only gaming tables at an open event is completely optional. No one's going to round them all up and make them game in a way they're not comfortable with. However, don't you think it's entirely possible that initially some women gamers might find it easier to learn within a group of all women? Most guys entered the hobby by being taught by other guys. Why is it so off-limits to give some women the same opportunity? And note, I said initially. I'm already on record saying that I think it's vitally important that these groups start expanding their gaming experiences to mix things up. We're not talking about segregating forever. We're just talking about making that initial immersion into gaming easier the first couple of times with some women-only groups. We're not talking about perpetuating a division of the sexes for all eternity.
So, that's my Top 5 things I'd like to see this discussion move beyond. Anybody game for taking a pledge to a) not bring up these topics again, and b) not engage anyone else who does? Because if we can do that, maybe this thread can stay on track for awhile...
My five cents,
--Neil
P.S. Thanks, Jessica. It's good to see you back in here. This thread needs more ladies talking, because I can only try to foster discussion on this topic. I'm the wrong gender to lead it.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If I can make a suggestion: you might want to define what making Pathfinder more inclusive acutally means.
Eg.
More female presence at cons and/or PFS?
More female presence in the home market?
etc.
Until you do that you can't really define how you'd measure success and that in turn has a giant impact on whether your actions, and the disucssion is effective or not. To be honest I think the biggest barrier to entry for most women is the social stigma associated with being a table top gamer. If you could find a way to make it more mainstream I suspect many more women would be interested in trying it out. The family angle (ala a family game night) would probably also be a good way to approach it.
e.g. Think of a commercial of a woman in a suit walking down the basement stairs to a table where dad is bringing in a plate of nachos to some kids. The youngest girl turns and says "Mom we started without you, there's 20 orcs in a 10'x10' room, what are you doing?" (Pan to a side room of packed LOTR style orcs pan back to mom in full plate with an axe)
Mom - "I had a long day at work... time for some heads to roll."
The next commercial could include the same group playing outside and finishing with one of the kids yelling "I attack the gazebo!" with Mom and Dad looking at each other with a knowing smile.
You could also market based around developing in-person face-to-face social connections that last a lifetime as opposed to the texting/video game level of interaction that permeates society today or mock the whole "Do you know where your kids are?" parenting PSAs: yeah they're downstairs killing a lich.
Anyways, looking at this from a perspective of what can the customers (i.e. the mostly male player base) do to change things probably isn't the best way to approach the problem. You want to convince women who've never played before to buy in then you need to appeal to them.
ETA: Ironically if you pursued the family angle/keeping kids out of trouble you might even get some support from traditionally conservative/religious organizations. (i.e. sponsor game nights for troubled youth in community churches) At the very least you'd earn massive bragging rights if you did manage to get buy in from more moderate relgious groups given the 80's era hype.)
|
I know this will sound facetious, but as a DM who has had women majority gaming groups for most of the past 15 years, I find being a gay man helps a lot. I cringe to admit it, like I'm waving the banner for some 'Girls + Gay Guys = Besties!' TV trope, but I do feel that my position in the head chair, and occasionally as a player, has allowed a variety women to feel comfortable with getting their feet wet. It takes the edge off of gender politics and often piques their curiosity to the type of game a non-stereotypical gaming dude will run. It's just enough of a crack in the boys' club where a lot of geeky women want to peer in.
They eventually discover that it's just like most tables - ridicuous stories, a boatload of combat, and a generous helping of friendly ribbing - but by that time they're hooked.
This might not be helpful in the larger context of marketing to women, but I've seen it work wonders on a group by group basis, among many friends, gimmicky as it is. Utilize your gay male players to attract female players, and perhaps vice versa - their numbers might be roughly the same, actually. Work those demographics, combine them. I'm not kidding.
Jessica - my apologies of this this angle tips the conversation off topic again.
IMO, one of the biggest issues is how TTRPGs are viewed by different segments of society.
My younger friends who are still 'college-age' all grew up with video games, MMOs, the Internet, cosplay, manga and animé being reasonably mainstream. Amongst those friends who are all ~12 years younger than me, it's been my experience that both genders have a genuine and healthy love of geeky pastimes. Some of the younger women in my group have actually dragged their boyfriends to game night, and I routinely meet women at DragonCon who are the same age as them and are even more gung-ho. Their perception of the hobby is positive.
However, when I contrast that against people in my own Gen X/Y generation, it seems like there is still a good bit more of a social stigma attached. I can't speak for everyone, but in the areas of the USA where I grew up, video games were frequently looked down upon as childish, D&D was frequently labeled as occult and deviant, and (with most of our formative years behind us before Internet access became commonplace) we grew up without quite the same exposure to diversity that we have now. Outside the microcosm we have here, I would say that the perception of the hobby is more negative.
Now from what I've observed, I get the feeling that there are a lot more 30-40 somethings on these boards than teens and 20-somethings. I say this because of all the accounts people have made of how they were bullied over their geeky pursuits — that's less likely to happen if that person's peers grew up seeing such pursuits as mainstream. Therefore, if I'm not totally off-base and there really is a generational gap at work, then this is an issue that will likely go beyond how we respect and support one another — it becomes about changing the public perception of our pastime.
Although I am most definitely not a woman, neither am I a teenage boy who would still be content eating Cheetos around a plastic table in a friend's basement. One of the things that I know my female players really enjoy (as do I) is the fact that our 'D&D Party' is not the collection of player characters we RP. Rather our 'D&D Party' is the fact that all of us are coming together and socializing — we are partying. We go out to sushi and coffee shops together, we post on each others' FB pages about what a blast we had hanging out, the space in which we play is well-appointed and inviting, and the liquor cabinet is well-stocked.
In trying to promote and encourage people to try a new hobby, we need to show that it is fun, socially-acceptable, and inclusive. When RPGs come up in conversation with someone who is unfamiliar with them, I don't 'sell' them as being similar to a computer game, I 'sell' it as being more like when you invite your friends over for a Super Bowl party, except instead of watching a game you're engaging in one.
While I'd say we guys definitely need to be more aware, we also need to go beyond being just tolerant of diversity and actually accept and appreciate it.
To put it in context, think of it like the Diplomacy attitudes:
- Appreciation = Helpful
- Acceptance = Friendly
- Tolerance = Indifferent
- Avoidance = Unfriendly
- Repulsion = Hostile
Just like in an office environment where morale and productivity are higher when the staff feels valued and involved, so too is it in social circles. If someone is merely tolerating my presence, I'm not as apt to stick around as when my contributions are appreciated.
In closure then, I'd say that if we wait around, things may get better simply by attrition as younger, more progressive generations come of age. However, I'm not that patient. In the meantime, not only do we need to be more respectful, conscientious, and accepting, we also need to each do our part to promote our chosen hobby as the inviting, socially-acceptable pastime we want it to be. Don't just convince someone they should watch the NFL with you, convince them they should come to your Super Bowl party!
I'm sorry I got baited into going off topic.
Back on topic:
I think that one thing the entertainment community can do as a whole to ease these problems, is that we need to be aware that 'trophy girlfriend characters' exist in entertainment.
Be aware of...
...when you see a movie with a strong female lead. Take example of Alien; do you know why Ripley's character was so strong? Because they wrote the character gender-neutral.
...when you see a strong female lead who DOESN'T have a backstory riddled with abuse.
...when she suddenly becomes a trophy at the end of the movie to be rescued by the man despite her multiple examples of strength up to that point *coughhansel&gretelcough*
...the differences in gritty reboots:
When Batman got a gritty reboot, he was put in "fight ninjas or get scolded about weakness" situations.
When Lara Croft got a gritty reboot, she was put in "fight criminals on an island or get raped" situations.
How does this translate to your game table? Start by paying more attention to when the above examples happen, and audit your writing accordingly. In other words, don't use those tropes in your writing.
I don't know what its like to be a woman. I don't know what its like to be subjected to sexism. But I do know that the things I've listed make me cringe, and they need to go away.
That is exactly how i feel. treat people like people and that is itAhhh I see that now, my apologies for mis-understanding the stance you were taking.NP. My point has always been "treat women as equals at the table, not as some strange creature that needs special attention, care, or even segregation". I don't think most female gamers want to be seen as FEMALE gamers, but rather as female GAMERS, or better yet, just gamers. If they are new to the game or new to GMing, teach and advise them like you would anyone else that is new. If they are experienced at the game, respect that experience the same as you would anyone else's. Bring more gamers of all kinds into the hobby, including female gamers, but don't include them by excluding everyone else.
Some have characterized this as "denying there's a problem" but I don't see it that way... I think treating female gamers differently IS the problem. Treating them like a piece of meat, or like a child, or like she's invisible, or like she's extra-special, or she needs to be sheltered, or myriad other ways in which she isn't just "one of the people playing a game with us", she's 'different'.
But like I said, that's just my opinion.
It's a nice aphorism, but it doesn't solve the problem that is real and being experienced female gamers.
