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To answer your original question (which I didn't previously) I don't believe its to do with class at all - I've encountered blundering social halfwits and perceptive kind-hearted souls from all social backgrounds, and I couldn't spot a correlation between the two axis. The register of speech may change, but that's absolutely as far as I'd venture.
I've never been to Boston, mind... :-)
Well, it is true that we New Englanders have a reputation for rudeness amongst our fellow Yanks. Given the stereotype of the Ugly American, I can only imagine how we would appear to ye olde Englanders.
But, still, I have never noticed a correlation between the blundering social halfwits/perceptive kind-hearted soul and crudity/sophistication axes, so...yeah, I don't know.
There may be some regionalism to it, but it's definitely not limited to New England. Here in Wisconsin, the class divide can be quite noticeable. But to reiterate what Don Juan de Doodlebug is saying (I can't believe I typed out that whole name) - it is most emphatically not about social halfwits/perceptive souls. The coarse working class guys I know would be pretty pissed off at being characterized a social halfwit. They can be pretty smart in the social arena, but they're typically more coarse in their communication.
I can see it at work pretty easily. The programmers and project managers I work with interact with each other in a very different manner than the construction workers building the new part of our campus. And it largely boils down to social class, background, and, most importantly, education. It helps to realize that one of the education system's greatest effects isn't to fill our heads with information - what higher education does is train us in communication. The more formal education we receive, the more we learn how to extract information from texts (make ourselves receptive to the ideas the author is trying to communicate) and the more we learn how to organize and write our thoughts via papers and tests and other assignments to communicate with the instructors that we understand the material. That has a profound effect on how we communicate with our peers as well.
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I must admit it's somewhat disheartening to be having conversations in this context/community that were being hashed out in most humane business contexts fifteen years past and in most educational contexts thirty years past. And to be hearing anecdotal and straw man arguments about how hard it is to be a white guy that have been ridiculous, demeaning, and profoundly ignorant on this continent for over half a millennium.
Welcome to the backlash. Women got a bit too uppity in the late 90s, so we have to be put back in our place, apparently.
Maybe in another generation, kids will read about these issues in their history books and think "wow, that was so silly!"
I must admit it's somewhat disheartening to be having conversations in this context/community that were being hashed out in most humane business contexts fifteen years past and in most educational contexts thirty years past. And to be hearing anecdotal and straw man arguments about how hard it is to be a white guy that have been ridiculous, demeaning, and profoundly ignorant on this continent for over half a millennium.Welcome to the backlash. Women got a bit too uppity in the late 90s, so we have to be put back in our place, apparently.
Maybe in another generation, kids will read about these issues in their history books and think "wow, that was so silly!"
Women got too "uppity" in the early seventies. The backlash has been in effect for over 40 years now.
That's absolutely what I was getting at. I don't/haven't seen any correlation between "class" (hateful term) and social intelligence.
Well, in that case, our whole exchange has been based on miscommunication because that wasn't what I said or meant.
Btw, I don't think "class" is a hateful term at all.
Vive le Galt!
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I must admit it's somewhat disheartening...to be hearing anecdotal and straw man arguments about how hard it is to be a white guy that have been ridiculous, demeaning, and profoundly ignorant on this continent for over half a millennium.
There is a more charitable reading of those arguments, in my view. I think there is some pragmatic value in establishing that, in a world where gender discrimination exists, everyone is worse off, including those in the privileged class.
Commenting on the restrictions facing men (based around working in traditionally female roles, their treatment as victims of violence, being a stay-at-home dad, etcetera) can sound like it's saying "Well, what about us?" - like sexism experienced by women is not so bad as it's made out to be or that it happens just as much to men. I dont find such calculations very useful - I think a better interpretation of these references to discrimination against men is not to undermine the importance of the fact women are discriminated against but to reinforce them. Everyone is worse off in a society where we discriminate - even some members of the privileged subgroups. If there was no such concept as "women's work" it would presumably benefit women - in that they'd have an easier time choosing from more options, but it would also benefit those men who currently choose to live outside the norm.
Granted they sometimes are advanced as "counters" to feminism, but I think they can be more profitably viewed in the light of supporting the efforts for equality. Viewing it through the prism of "us and them" isnt a terribly useful framework for reforming society, in my opinion.
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I must admit it's somewhat disheartening...to be hearing anecdotal and straw man arguments about how hard it is to be a white guy that have been ridiculous, demeaning, and profoundly ignorant on this continent for over half a millennium.There is a more charitable reading of those arguments, in my view. I think there is some pragmatic value in establishing that, in a world where gender discrimination exists, everyone is worse off, including those in the privileged class.
Commenting on the restrictions facing men (based around working in traditionally female roles, their treatment as victims of violence, being a stay-at-home dad, etcetera) can sound like it's saying "Well, what about us?" - like sexism experienced by women is not so bad as it's made out to be or that it happens just as much to men. I dont find such calculations very useful - I think a better interpretation of these references to discrimination against men is not to undermine the importance of the fact women are discriminated against but to reinforce them. Everyone is worse off in a society where we discriminate - even some members of the privileged subgroups. If there was no such concept as "women's work" it would presumably benefit women - in that they'd have an easier time choosing from more options, but it would also benefit those men who currently choose to live outside the norm.
Granted they sometimes are advanced as "counters" to feminism, but I think they can be more profitably viewed in the light of supporting the efforts for equality. Viewing it through the prism of "us and them" isnt a terribly useful framework for reforming society, in my opinion.
+1
When work becomes stereotypically male or female both genders suffer. This tends to affect women more than men, because well-paying jobs are more likely to be "male." But it does cut both ways. In my field, I think there's a reason while libraries are seen as a female space and that reason does have something to do why boys in particular tend to stop reading by middle school. The reason is entirely cultural - libraries were a safe job for single women in particular from the 19th c. on, like elementary school teaching - but has a subtle warping effect on library work to this day. I also think it may be related to why both public libraries and schools are low status places to work and fund, such that they're consistently under budget pressure.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone is worse off in a society where we discriminate - even some members of the privileged subgroups.
Oh, I'd go farther than that and say all members of the privileged subgroups are worse off. It's what Wendell Berry called "the hidden wound" speaking of racism; the psychological, moral, and social damage done to the empowered by their own unjust acts. People who think that women are somehow inferior to men are actually enfeebled. They're less healthy and whole than they might be.
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I don't know if this is a male/female difference or just a me vs. the rest of my species difference, but it seems kind of alien to me to NEED to speak up because I've been offended, or assume that the other person needs to apologize because I was offended. Its usually just less problematic to bury the emotion and move on.
Heh. It's a case of some people/some other people difference.
I think in most casual social situations this is what I'd do, too. If someone is mean to me or offensive in passing I don't know as I'd bother with trying to call them out on it, just because I don't think it'd be worth the time.
However, if I'm playing with someone in a game setting, I think it'd be a bother to try and repress my anger/annoyance/hurt feelings if someone was repeatedly offensive/sexist/creepy. RPGs are a large part of my socializing, and I don't want to spend any of that time having to deal with jerky-jerk behavior.
And, on the other hand, if I'm doing something that's messing with somebody else's fun, I would hope they would call me out on it. I might not even be aware that I'm bringing something up that's a sore spot for a fellow player.
In other news, there's a lot of Monty Python I adore, and other things the guys have said that kinda gross me out. :P
Even going by your incredibly narrow and particular definition of "sexism," I find that a laughable statement, to say the least, bespeaking a baleful ignorance. There is most definitely sexism against men in this country, just as there is sexism against women in this country.
As for 'sexism against men' mentioned in another post upthread, it's not possible in our society. Gender discrimination and gender prejudice against men exists, but sexism is that plus the institutional support of society to that prejudice and discrimination. Just as you can't have racism against white people except in countries where non-whites hold all the power, and even then there's the fact that most whites in China or Japan or India will be citizens of powerful white-dominated countries such as the U.S., so they're likely to be treated with some degree of deference by the authorities.
This is really just a semantics argument between the connotation of "sexism" as "every single instance of discrimination based on gender" and "the societal structures and traditions that uphold gender discrimination as a cultural norm".
No one is arguing that men don't suffer from gender discrimination or that sexism in our society doesn't hurt both genders. Usually, men who don't conform to traditional "manly men" stereotypes are the ones who are hurt the worst by institutional sexism. Interestingly enough, there's probably a significant overlap between those men and the men in the RPG community.
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Sure, but you don't think that the line moves even just a little between an all male and a mixed group?
Not for me, but in general I don't tell crude jokes to anyone I don't know well, regardless of gender.
The fact is that in our society you do not talk to a woman the same way that you talk to a man. Distance, eye contact, subject matter, tone, body language, physical gestures are ALL different for talking to women than to men.
Yes, because a man doesn't have to live his life with the near-constant threat of being verbally accosted, molested, or raped. A man basically never has to be wary of sexual interest from other people.
Of Dogs and Lizards: A Parable of Privilege <-- read and remember it
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It's important to note that 'sexism' denotes not just discrimination against women, but a society that's set up to view it as normal and even to fight back against trying to change it. If Jessica had grabbed a guy's crotch or told a CEO he needed a bigger package to be taken seriously, she'd likely be fired - if a guy does it he has as much chance of getting a high five off his boss as he does getting into trouble.
You can see it even today. The 'Stand Your Ground' law in Florida is a excellent example - one gentleman literally follows and kills a youth and the Stand Your Ground law meant the police refused to even arrest him until they had sufficient evidence.
On the opposite site, a women who fired a shot into a ceiling to scare away her abusive partner, whom I believe was under a restraining order, was arrested and imprisoned. The difference? The women didn't kill anyone but is a woman.
You can (and will) have discrimination against men. But the vast majority goes the other way. Women get blamed for being raped because they were wearing certain clothes, or walking in the wrong place, or failed to wear a mecha-robo suit of armour with twin gattling cannons. A woman is never at fault for being raped - it is always, without fail, the man's fault for raping her. Even if she's tap dancing naked through a dark alley at 3am. She might not be taking a smart course of action doing it, but it's still not her fault.
It's nice to hear things are changing, and that a company I like to support is such a good working environment encouraging that. But there's a long way to go. First thing's first - people need to admit, 'Yeah, my actions - my fault' and not try and excuse there actions as someone else being too PC. It's not someone else's fault that they got offended, idiot, it;'s your fault for saying something offensive.
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Ok, since I have a few free moments, here are some of my thoughts on making gaming spaces more friendly for women (and I think most of this would apply to any member of a different demographic group who's a minority in gaming, but seeing as I'm female, that's what I can speak to from experience).
And here's a few things to get out of the way first (some disclaimers/examples spoilered because this post is long and I want to make it more easily visually scannable):
I do not hate or resent men: 90% of my friends are male. I love men. I want men to be happy and treated fairly. I also want women to be happy and treated fairly. And I don't see that as a zero-sum game. More respect and fairness toward women doesn't lose men respect and fairness. Respect -- and kindness, and empathy -- are like compounding interest. A little bit invested grows quickly.
Moreover, it doesn't just benefit women. It's not just a "women's issue." The script for what constitutes proper masculinity is just as much of a Catch-22, just as unreachable, just as unreasonable, as the script for what constitutes proper femininity, and that whole societal script is sexist against men too. The ideal that men must be invulnerable, that it's inappropriate for men to show emotion, to have real friendships, to not be strong, to not be dominant, to not be sexually aggressive, to be pursued rather than pursuing, to be poor, to be confident and smooth and funny, etcetera ad infinitum et nauseum (not to mention: straight, athletic, fascinated by sports and cars, and so on), is just as unattainable as the idea that women must be both sexy and chaste, undemanding and commitment-focused, delicate submissive flowers who are also society's moral backbones.
Treating women (and gay men, and men of color, etc.) as equals who have an equal right to be in games is working to free yourself from those scripts as well. It's saying you have a right to be who you are, regardless of whether it fits some gender script.
We tend to focus on how it harms women, because men have (both historically and currently) had the comfort of at least having positions of political, financial and social power, but being in a position of power doesn't mean that you're not subject to those scripts and can't be harmed by them.
I don't think having privilege makes you a bad person: Privilege is a contextual thing, and we all have it in some situations and lack it in others. We've all benefitted from it in some situations. When someone says that you have benefitted from your privilege, they're not saying that you did nothing to earn what you have, or that you should lose the things you've earned, or whatever. They are saying that you had some advantages in getting where you are that other people didn't have.
I also don't think that having privilege blindness -- not being aware of all the ways in which you benefit from your privilege, and not recognizing that the playing field isn't level -- makes you a bad person.*
But I do think that, if you want to be a good person, you have an obligation to try to figure this stuff out and not abuse your privilege. I do think that insistent refusal to consider how you have benefitted from your privilege, and rejection of the empathy to try to understand how it may have negatively affected people who don't share it, challenges your ability to be a good person.
Derailment is a form of silencing. What do I mean by "derailment"? Well, here are a lot of examples in convenient bingo card form. (Or, if you'd like a less humorous and more straightforward explanation of derailment, check out this one.)
If someone says to you, "The thing you have said about this group I belong to hurts or offends me," or "I believe I am being treated unfairly because of my gender/race/orientation/etc." and your first response is "LOL CAN'T YOU TAKE A JOKE?" or one of the responses on that bingo card, I think you owe it to them and yourself to ask why that is. If you've unintentionally genuinely hurt someone, made them feel unsafe or unwelcome, etc. and your first concern is to save face for yourself rather than to try to apologize and understand, well, you've got some self-examination to do. And again, I don't think this makes you a horrible person, and I think we've all done it (because it is a natural first response to be like, "But that's not what I meant!"). But that doesn't mean it's okay.
So, all of that said:
Like a large number of people in this thread have already said, most of making your gaming environment (whether professional or recreational) welcoming to women and other gaming minorities is just common courtesy.
But it's common courtesy with awareness.
Using common courtesy to help eliminate sexism/silencing
Some people have said, "Well, I just don't notice sexism."
That's a problem. And it's one you can learn to fix. And if you're not trying to fix it, honestly, I think you're failing your female colleagues/players.
So, take some time, if you're in a male-dominated environment, and pay attention to interactions and whether women are treated differently (both intentionally and unintentionally). For example, women are generally socialized to qualify their statements, not to interrupt, to stop talking if someone interrupts them rather than trying to maintain the floor, etc.
(I don't speak for all women, of course, and my upbringing was more gender-normative than a lot of people's, so I may be on the end of a spectrum.)
- Are the women (or other minorities) getting talked over, interrupted, or otherwise silenced more often than the guys? Then maybe it's time to reinforce some basic courtesies.
If you're talking to someone, regardless of gender, and someone interrupts, try saying something like, "Hey, hang on a sec, I'm talking to Joe/Jane."
This is common courtesy that should apply to everyone, and other people should help maintain on behalf of everyone, regardless of gender. But in a group where everyone is male, it's unlikely that anyone was socialized differently because of their gender, and they may not need to think about it because they assume if they interrupt someone who wants to keep talking, that person will interrupt them right back. The socialization many women receive not to do that can subconsciously reinforce the idea that they are lower-status.
Again, this is not a way that you should treat women differently than men. It's using basic courtesy that treats everyone equally to help wipe out some unconscious gender imbalances.
- Similarly, if someone says that something bothered them, and someone else dismisses it, you can call it out and don't have to make it about gender even if the comment itself was gendered. You can say, "Hey, I want to make sure anyone at the table who has concerns about the way we're playing the game/treating each other/treating PCs/etc. gets heard."
And with all these things, I'm not suggesting using them as some sort of cover to fight sexism. I'm saying: use common courtesy to make the place better for everyone. But learn to listen for things that are gender-coded forms of rudeness, dismissal and belittlement and make sure to include those in the things you attempt to quietly call out/discourage.
Does sexism/objectification/rape trivialization/etc. bother you? Say so!
Under the heading of learning to notice sexism in your environment:
- What sort of language is being used about women (or whatever gaming minority you're talking about), whether it's characters in the game or women in general or women at the table?
- Is there gaslighting/dismissal of female players (or, actually, any players) going on? Here's a great article on that.
- Is the language being used or the way characters are portrayed perpetuating rape culture?
- Are stereotypes/generalizations/etc. being promoted in the environment? ("Oh, well, of course Jane forgot. Girls have memories like goldfish.")
If you are noticing any of these things, do they bother you? Imagine that a woman you love (your mom, your sister, your girlfriend, your wife, etc.) was on the receiving end of this stuff. Does that idea bother you?
If it doesn't, then don't worry about it.
But if the answer is yes, then say something. Don't position it as trying to protect the woman in the group, or make it about her. Speak up and say it bothers you.
Personal anecdotes:
Me. And no one else. Definitely not the person that was doing it.
We'd be in a meeting and some guy would mock some concerns players had brought up about the way a female character was portrayed. Or he'd make a comment about my body and get mad that I didn't "have a sense of humor" when I told him it wasn't appropriate and made me uncomfortable. And so on.
And after the meeting, some coworker that had been in the meeting would come up to me and say, "Wow, what Dave said was really not cool, sorry about that."
I'd stand there in this sort of anguished frustration, thinking, "Then why didn't you say so to him?"
Look, I can take care of myself, but if you are genuinely bothered by something because you believe it's wrong, then I certainly appreciate the solidarity and the support. When you're the only woman, it can be lonely and you end up silencing yourself and picking your battles because you don't want to be The Girl Who Sees Sexism Everywhere, and you know that to fit in you have to be tougher than the guys, and whatever.**
The sort of guys who say openly inappropriate things to women are generally guys who don't respect women's opinions anyway, so our objections don't mean anything to them.
But another guy shooting them a disgusted look, or a "Dude. Not cool," often shuts them up. It lets them know that their behavior is not earning them points with other guys.
It costs men less to speak up, when they are in the majority, than it does for a lone woman, and their words are generally more effective than ours, but it seems like they rarely do. At the very least, even if it doesn't have much of an effect on the guy saying the inappropriate stuff, it lets women know that his attitude doesn't represent what the other guys in the group feel, and that we're not alone in dealing with him.
Be sensitive to the fact that a few things are different for women
Most men don't live in a world where they have to consider whether every expression of sexual interest made toward them is hostile or dangerous. Most women do. 1 in 5 women has been the victim of rape or attempted rape. Do you know 10 women? Statistically speaking, that's 2 of them.
Think about that for a moment, if that statistic is new to you.
There's a quote by (IIRC) Margaret Atwood that's fairly instructive about the different worlds most men and women inhabit: "Men are afraid women are going to laugh at them. Women are afraid men are going to kill them."
So:
- If you have a woman in your group and you don't know her well, make sure you're not putting her in situations where she might feel unsafe.
- If she has to park away from the building and she came alone, ask her if she'd like you and one of the other guys to walk her to her car.
- If you don't know her well, and don't know how she feels about physical contact, don't touch her beyond the normal physical interactions like handshakes, etc. Even if you're a "physical person" or whatever, don't ask her for hugs, don't do the shoulder-squeezing thing, and so on.
- Don't comment on her body.
- If you ask her out (and whether you should do that is a whole different kettle of fish), and she says no, drop it and move on.
- Don't pressure her for her address or other personal information you don't need for gaming.
- Respect her physical space.
How can you help if there's actual harassment going on?
I'll get back to this one in a bit because I've got to get some stuff done and I think it's an important discussion that I don't want to rush through.
Notes:
*
And inevitably you'd hear from male engineers you worked with, "Well, if women are such delicate flowers that they fail and drop out if they don't have any female professors, maybe they're just not suited for the rough-and-tumble world of engineering. That doesn't mean they should get special treatment." "Well, if you think this job is hard just because you don't see a whole lot of other women, maybe you're not suited for the industry. I don't see why you need a special women's networking group. We don't have a special men's networking group."
And it doesn't occur to them that they don't know how they would fare in your situation. They went to school where all or almost all their professors and classmates were people just like them. They don't know how continually being treated as an alien in the field they loved might have affected their performance.
They don't have a men's networking group at their 95% male company because every work activity they go to is a g*dd*mn male networking activity. The office soccer team they start up? Men only. After work drinks? Only men invited. The panel they're on? All men. (In the old days, the strip clubs they went to over lunch, where they made business decisions? Not exactly welcoming for their female colleagues.)
So you try to explain to them, politely, reasonably, that you're not asking for special treatment -- you're asking for the same thing they have. Social events and networking events where you can meet up with other people of your gender in the industry. A mentor who shares some of your life and work experiences.
But their privilege -- their belief that the playing field was level -- makes them see it as you wanting special things that you don't deserve.
**
That was my failing, and I'm not blaming any of the guys who were there for not speaking up, because maybe it didn't bother them, and I'm not asking people to speak up about things if they don't feel that way. But oh, if only one of them had said, "Hey, I liked the other one better; our game has nothing actually to do with what we're showing in this poster and it makes me kind of uncomfortable," it would have been so much easier to speak up.
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There is a more charitable reading of those arguments, in my view. I think there is some pragmatic value in establishing that, in a world where gender discrimination exists, everyone is worse off, including those in the privileged class.
Commenting on the restrictions facing men (based around working in traditionally female roles, their treatment as victims of violence, being a stay-at-home dad, etcetera) can sound like it's saying "Well, what about us?" - like sexism experienced by women is not so bad as it's made out to be or that it happens just as much to men. I dont find such calculations very useful - I think a better interpretation of these references to discrimination against men is not to undermine the importance of the fact women are discriminated against but to reinforce them. Everyone is worse off in a society where we discriminate - even some members of the privileged subgroups. If there was no such concept as "women's work" it would presumably benefit women - in that they'd have an easier time choosing from more options, but it would also benefit those men who currently choose to live outside the norm.
Granted they sometimes are advanced as "counters" to feminism, but I think they can be more profitably viewed in the light of supporting the efforts for equality. Viewing it through the prism of "us and them" isnt a terribly useful framework for reforming society, in my opinion.
Yes, yes, yes. This was indeed the intent I was trying to convey when I mentioned the things I did. I wish I had said it better. Steve Gedddes did so.
Andy
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Sure, but you don't think that the line moves even just a little between an all male and a mixed group?Not for me, but in general I don't tell crude jokes to anyone I don't know well, regardless of gender.
Do you think its that way for most men, that the line doesn't move at all? This isn't just me, it seems like most guys tidy up the conversation when a woman walks into the room the way they don't when a guy walks in.
Yes, because a man doesn't have to live his life with the near-constant threat of being verbally accosted, molested, or raped. A man basically never has to be wary of sexual interest from other people.
Exactly. So treat me like one of the guys AND treat me with respect/how I want to be treated becomes almost a paradox. I can look a man in the eyes because its not going to be misinterpreted as flirting. I can respond to being interrupted mid sentence by raising my voice a bit and continuing on. I don't need to bite my tongue mid sentence for asking a male coworker for another screw while I'm fixing a door.
One can treat women respectfully but by definition it won't be treating them the same. Respect is about doing what people want, men and women don't always want the same thing.
Of Dogs and Lizards: A Parable of Privilege <-- read and remember it
This ignores many factors that go the other way. I didn't feel particularly privileged when the game "how many kids does it take to beat up bignorsewolf" and the second grade renditions of mad max in the thunder dome left me with multiple concussions throughout elementary school.. but hey that's just boys being boys. I didn't feel particularly privileged when folks wanted to drug me because math was boring. I didn't feel particularly privileged having a girl shove rocks in my face because hitting her back would have gotten me expelled. I didn't feel privileged in the Sahara desert yacking up all the colors of christmas and being told to just man up and stick it out. I don't feel particularly privileged hobbling into social services and being told "hey there's another 50% of you to go before you're completely disabled, you're on your own."
"male privilege" preemptively ignores half the problem and is no way to start a conversation about gender biases.
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BigNorseWolf, the fact that you may have had difficulties in your life doesn't mean you're not privileged.
I think you're misunderstanding what privilege is. I suggest this article: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-diffic ulty-setting-there-is/
Odds are BigNorse Wolf, had you been a woman/minority/homosexual, your treatment would have been even worse. No one is saying that all men all the time have SUPER MEGAWESOME LIVES, but a white straight male has is less likely to deal with extra layers of problems societies heap on them.
BigNorseWolf, the fact that you may have had difficulties in your life doesn't mean you're not privileged.
I think you're misunderstanding what privilege is. I suggest this article: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-diffic ulty-setting-there-is/
Mmmm.. garlic.
This is more of a statement that that's how allegedly are than an argument that they are that way. I think there are a huge list of differences between how men and women are treated in society and that living as a male can't simply be dismissed as "easy mode" because there are too many incomparables between the two. You can compare a +1 weapon with a +2 weapon. You can't compare dimension door and phantasamal killer. How do you put a number value on encouraging sports/science achievements vs a greater ability to ask for/get help from society?
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How trite. "If you have a positive attribute, that's because the system is helping you. If you have a negative attribute, that's your fault. If someone else succeeds, that's their virtue. If they fail, that's the systems fault."
Can we please stop the misery Olympics and simply treat other people with respect regardless of how ideologies opt to classify and divide them?
Odds are BigNorse Wolf, had you been a woman/minority/homosexual, your treatment would have been even worse. No one is saying that all men all the time have SUPER MEGAWESOME LIVES, but a white straight male has is less likely to deal with extra layers of problems societies heap on them.
I'm sure it would have been worse on any number of aspects, but on the specifics i mentioned i'm pretty sure it would have been better. Schools did not put up with girls showing up with bloody noses. Hitting someone of the same gender got you in nowhere NEAR as much trouble as hitting a girl, a sick woman in the peace corps got waaay more time to take it easy than I did and she was walking better than I was, and Jack becomes homeless Jill goes on welfare
If i didn't have an understanding family (well.. some of an understanding family) I'd be hobbling around the woods somewhere.
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This ignores many factors that go the other way. I didn't feel particularly privileged when the game "how many kids does it take to beat up bignorsewolf" and the second grade renditions of mad max in the thunder dome left me with multiple concussions throughout elementary school.. but hey that's just boys being boys. I didn't feel particularly privileged when folks wanted to drug me because math was boring. I didn't feel particularly privileged having a girl shove rocks in my face because hitting her back would have gotten me expelled. I didn't feel privileged in the Sahara desert yacking up all the colors of christmas and being told to just man up and stick it out. I don't feel particularly privileged hobbling into social services and being told "hey there's another 50% of you to go before you're completely disabled, you're on your own."
So... girls don't get beat up in school?
Girls don't get drugged against their will?Girls don't get rocks shoved in their faces?
Women don't get called weak when they're vomiting?
Women aren't denied disability because they're not disabled enough?
Nothing about your experience is exclusive to being male.
Everything that we're talking about is almost completely exclusive to being female.
Let's take a look at each of your examples if you were a female:
You could have been beaten up in school and molested or raped by other students.
You could have been drugged against your will and raped.
You could have had rocks shoved in your face and had your body violated in ways that no man can ever experience.
You could have been vomiting in the desert and been told that you could quit at any time because that would prove you weren't as strong as a man.
You could have been denied disability while pregnant.
Every bad thing that has happened to a man in this world can me made worse by adding "and then they violated her sexually"... and done simply because the target is a woman.
If I walk down an alley in a scary neighborhood, I could get robbed. If I don't carry cash with me, the robbers may decide to beat me just to show their annoyance that I had no money on me. They may even kill me if they're angry enough. Odds are, they won't rape me, though.
A woman in the same circumstances may be attacked not because the assailant wants money, but because he wants sex... or because he wants to dominate and humiliate the woman. And if she's helpless, odds are she may be sexually assaulted. Not because of anything she's done, but just because of what she is.
Nobody is trying to tell you that men don't have bad things happen to them, or that you in particular didn't have bad things happen to you. We are trying to tell you that women inherently have it worse, in terms of violence and social acceptance of treating women as inferior to men. The second idea doesn't negate the first idea. Acknowledging that women are at a disadvantage doesn't mean that every man is living a happy golden life.
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Every time I see the world "privilege" I open my wallet and look for the White Straight Male Card that supposedly gets me all this awesome stuff just because of my gender and race and orientation. That I'll be invited into some executive squash club full of backrubs from beautiful women and champagne.
And then I look down at the bowl of cheap ramen in my hands, and think about my minimum wage overnight job of unloading trucks, and worry about being able to pay the water bill before it gets cut off and how I can't afford to subscribe to the AP's anymore.
If I am going to get flak for "privilege", I at least want to be able to enjoy some of it. So could the White Male club send me one of those cards? Please?
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This is more of a statement that that's how allegedly are than an argument that they are that way. I think there are a huge list of differences between how men and women are treated in society and that living as a male can't simply be dismissed as "easy mode" because there are too many incomparables between the two. You can compare a +1 weapon with a +2 weapon. You can't compare dimension door and phantasamal killer. How do you put a number value on encouraging sports/science achievements vs a greater ability to ask for/get help from society?
Because it's not about quantifiability. That would imply that there's a "scale" of privilege. Thinking about it that way is missing the point. Yes, the term "easy mode" is simplistic and doesn't get across everything; that's what simplifications do. They express the basic idea of something. You're picking holes in the simple explanations people are using to describe a very complex problem, on the ground that they're not complex enough.
Of course they're not complex enough. They're simplifications.
Now, just because being male is a net positive in some areas, it doesn't mean that it's not a negative in others. You're right about that. I suffered a lot from the "boys don't cry" stereotype, for example, and I had non-gender-normative interests. But that doesn't mean being male didn't make my life easier in many areas. And honestly it was overall still "easier" being male - I suspect I still had more net benefit - than being female would have been.
Saying "men have it hard, too" is missing the point. First of all, gender bias hurts everyone in different ways. Second of all, honestly, things are, objectively, more difficult for women, across more areas.
Some of what you're referencing is described by intersectionality. Personal anecdote time. I'm male, white, and upper-middle-class. That's made my life a lot easier in certain areas. Without question. I've gotten jobs because of my accent or because friends of my parents hired me. I've been treated better by police, etc, because of my accent, I can walk alone at night without being too worried (most of the time). I'm also gay. That's made my life more difficult in some other areas. But being gay doesn't make my privilege in those other fields just go away. It doesn't change the fact that my parents could afford private tuition which helped me get into my university course, which is privilege I have over people who were poorer, for example.
This got longer than I thought. A summary:
- Everyone has some type of privilege.
- Being disadvantaged in one area doesn't remove your other privileges.
- Comparing one type of privilege to another is not helpful...
- BUT pretending all disadvantage are equal isn't either.
Thanks.
A sidenote on the concept of dealing with rape in games: I have played in games that dealt with rape, but only when everyone in the (mixed) party, plus the GM, was okay with it and had discussed it and how it would be handled OOC beforehand. This was also a very experienced set of roleplayers, in a modern-day psychological horror game. I also ask players about triggers before running any potentially triggering material in my own games: at least three of my gamer circles are rape survivors, and I know of two of those are because the topic arose in conversations they were part of (not during a game). Sometimes accidentally upsetting people whose triggers you don't know is unavoidable. Sometimes it's not your fault. The important thing is to be aware of the possibility, and make an effort to be aware of and to accommodate other gamers' (and other people's, more generally) boundaries and comfort levels.
You could have had rocks shoved in your face and had your body violated in ways that no man can ever experience.
Technically, this is not true. While it is rare, a man can be violated in this way (... by another man).
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So could the White Male club send me one of those cards? Please?
Sure!
***
White Male Privilege Card
Now conventially broken down by 'white' and 'male'!
This card entitles Skeletal Steve to the following, modifiable by intersectionality with other factors:
- Better treatment by law enforcement (white)
- Better odds of bail and reduced prison terms (white)
- Massively reduced risk of sexual assault and rape (male)
- Not being told you're inherently less intelligent (twofer - white AND male!)
- Legacy generational benefits (white) http://ih0.redbubble.net/image.8201434.2735/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg
- Being treated as an independent individual responsible for themselves (male)
- Doubled personal space (male)
- Having your aggression and willingness to stand up to someone valued (male, but also white)
- Living in a country where the vast majority of people look like you and instinctively trust and relate to you more (white - this applies to Canada, US, Europe, NZ, Australia, at a minimum)
- Walking alone at night (male, though you still probably shouldn't)
- Not worrying if an offer to walk you somewhere is a rape threat (male)
- Not having your body and capacity to reproduce treated as public property (male)
If that's not enough, let us know! There's plenty we couldn't fit on the card!
***
Okay, sarcasm over. The point I'm trying to make is just because you're disadvantaged by income/education/class/circumstances/whatever, it doesn't remove the fact that you do benefit from being white and male. You just don't notice.
Technically, this is not true. While it is rare, a man can be violated in this way (... by another man).
Not that rare. But it doesn't change the fact that, for example, a man can't be impregnated by their rapist. However, yes, rape is rape and is awful regardless of gender. The literal circumstances can differ, though.
Teenagers aren't that different, but I think the subset that games might be. If girls are more common in the hobby, that in itself makes a difference.Remember, you're talking about a demographic where a large proportion of them are totally fine with using the word "gay" to mean "lame," and casually throw around the word "rape."
This really bugs me...What is it about "men" that makes them think that using "gay" or "rape" or "c***" or "b****" is okay? Using these words doesn't make anyone more mature or tough or whatever. I am tired of gaming with people who use these words casually at the table or online.
Overall I try to encourage a sexism free table but I am not sure that I am succeeding with the current group I am running.
=Dan
What do these things have to do with women at the gaming table, and in the gaming industry?
Because from where I sit, I can't figure out how we are now talking about racial demographics of front line soldiers in World War II, instead of women. Please focus.
While it most definitely is off topic, the two do intertwine a lot as you can see a lot of sexism and racism in gaming, much in the same way people compare anti-homosexual marriage laws to anti-miscegenation laws. When you bring up one kind of oppression, you are bound to compare it to other kinds.
Not pointing fingers at anyone in this thread, but it just somehow reminded about that.