DreamGoddessLindsey |
Topic. I've heard it around the internet, but I thought for sure that people were reading it wrong. Everyone kept talking about how Spell Resistance will stop you from getting healed or getting buffs or anything else. I thought they were wrong.
Then I read the entry where it actually states a person has to lower their Spell Resistance as a standard action to get a healing or buff spell cast on them. That standard action kinda kills it I think.
Am I reading it wrong? Is there errata that negates this steaming pile of dog crap?
If it's intended and ruled as written, that would make every class with Spell Resistance unplayable once they have it on top of making the Holy Avenger one of the worst items to have. Having to use a standard action to let a spell through is so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't help but think that it wasn't intended to be this way. At most it should be a free action, or preferably it shouldn't be an action at all and should be droppable at any time the same way you can choose to fail a saving throw.
Please tell me there is errata for this or a misreading. If it's intended this way, all Spell Resistance is either so low it's irrelevant or so high it's getting you killed.
Is this something that needs to get smashed by the Rule 0 Bat? Is it something most DMs ignore?
Rynjin |
Spell Resistance is in a weird spot where it's annoying enough for me to deal with in combat that I don't wanna hit it with yon +5 Club of Rule Zeroing and frustratingly stupid enough when it comes to buffs that I can't really ignore it.
I usually just encourage my players to shy away from Spell Resistance altogether, explaining the downsides and then let them choose whether they want the hassle or not. If they don't and it's a Class Feature (like the Monk's Diamond Soul) I'll let 'em swap it with something else.
Piccolo |
Spell resistance is remarkably hard to get past as well, kinda like Hardness in that regard.
I also noticed that casting defensively is ALMOST as hard as getting past SR, but not quite. Used to be that doing so was easy, since you had an entire skill dedicated to it.
This is why I encourage Wizard players to take Spell Penetration (both) and Combat Casting, plus taking an Elf as your race. SR is damned difficult to get past dependably.
DreamGoddessLindsey |
Seems to me that the most intelligent and logical thing to do is club that aspect of SR with a Holy Stupidity Bane Greatclub +5 until it's dead.
If it weren't for SR (and my not knowing how it works), the group would have been absolutely decimated in the most recent boss battle against Bargle the Infamous because he would have just overkilled everyone if the party had to keep SR down or weren't able to heal and buff through it. Wizards are overpowered as it is, no need to make them even more superior by making a defense useless.
insaneogeddon |
Holy Swords are gold: paladins lay on hands is SU, channel energy is SU.
Only the weak need rely on the evil cowardly passive aggressive bully casters and their over valued spells ; )
PS: it sucks for casters and buff bots in 99% of combats but makes them gods vs the rare 200 low level casting cultists.
Morgen |
Is there some particular reason being slightly/somewhat/mostly/hugely immune to magic shouldn't apply evenly to all types of magic that allow for spell resistance?
I'm sorry but I'm not exactly following the train of logic where it should somehow be even better then it already is for things that have it. A good amount of effort was made in the creation of Pathfinder to make things like SR and Concentration actually count for something compared to how it was towards the end of 3.5 D&D.
Phrennzy. |
SR is amazingly powerful. You are blocking the enemy's magic without having to do anything. Just stand there and let the fireball roar around you with no effect.
It makes perfect sense that you should also have a hard time accepting the good magic. That's the price for being nearly immune to hostile magic.
If there isn't a hefty drawback, then everyone would take it.
FrinkiacVII |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've played and DMed this rule as written and I believe it is fair, as written (please pardon while I duck the rotten tomatoes being thrown at me).
My reasons:
1. Not all healing requires a spell being cast at the recipient by someone else. This causes certain other options to look a little better than the usual boring Cure Light Wounds.
2. Spell resistance will often prevent the damage you would have taken anyway.
3. It's been around a long time (meaning, I bet Gygax or whomever invented it did so just to make monsters tougher with no thought that any PC would ever get to use it).
4. You CAN lower it, which makes for interesting strategic choices during combat, thus adding to the fun.
5. Not all spells allow SR to be used against them in the first place.
6. In places where it is applicable it's REALLY good.
7. I don't have the books in front of me, but frankly I'm not sure that a caster is considered immune to his own SR. If he is, that is probably logical, but still really good too.
In my opinion as a DM, playing it any other way is like having your cake and eating it to. Anything that powerful should come at a price. I mean, if your DM allowed you to just say "Ok, I walk into the dungeon and kill the dragon. What's for lunch?" then the game would suck. The fact that you CAN'T have everything the way you'd ideally want it makes the game more fun, not less fun. It may be frustrating at times, but an "easy win" with no real work involved is a hollow waste of time, whereas a "challenging puzzle" gives a sense of accomplishment after negotiating it. SR with no drawbacks would be too easy.
Aldarionn |
The problem with Spell Resistance is that it exists in the first place. The idea is that it's like AC for spells. Energy resistance is a similar concept, being to energy damage like DR is to physical damage. The difference is that it's exceptionally difficult to bypass SR, and you can only ever cast one spell per round unless you are very high level and have a lot of feats to work with. A fighter throwing a bunch of attacks has a good chance of at least a few of them getting through in a round, but a sorcerer against an equal challenge rating creature with SR has a 50% chance of losing his entire action unless he has a very specific set of feats (Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Spell Perfection), and only with specific spells. Considering Pathfinder has made it exceptionally easy for physical damage dealers to deal as much damage as casters, or more with the right builds, it seems odd that they would leave a mechanic like SR which basically halves a casters effectiveness against equal level targets, never mind that most encounters tend to be higher CR than the party.
Spell Resistance would need a pretty severe overhaul in order to be balanced correctly for the game, and as such I generally rule against players taking it in any way. I also try to avoid using monsters with unreasonably high SR, or adjust it accordingly if I have to.
Quintessentially Me |
Spell Resistance would need a pretty severe overhaul in order to be balanced correctly for the game, and as such I generally rule against players taking it in any way. I also try to avoid using monsters with unreasonably high SR, or adjust it accordingly if I have to.
I'm curious then... what do you houserule for classes for whom this is a class ability, automatically granted at level up *looks directly a monk*?
Venomblade |
When you get higher level and can cast Holy Aura(best buff in the game) It only grants spell resistance to evil spells or spells cast by evil creatures! It also grants +4 deflection, protection from evil and any evil creature that hits you with a melee attack needs to make a fort save or go blind.
Otherwise spell resistance is a total trap in the earlier levels and I would not recommend it unless you are able to heal yourself.
DreamGoddessLindsey |
For those defending the current rules on Spell Resistance, do you not use dynamic encounters? FrinkiacVII, I can explain away all your points just by calling up the most recent boss battle in the game I'm DMing right now.
Bargle the Infamous, a wizard with all sorts of nasty stuff to use including Spell Perfection and items that could increase spell power even more, used True Name to summon Azazel, a Giant Advanced Vavakia. By written rules, the ecounter was CR 20 (Bargle got PC level gear and summons don't count toward CR). This was at the end of a grueling stage that took up most of the PCs resources before they even got to him. Here's the party:
Venda (Human Two-Weapon Warrior 19)
Mayless (Human Paladin 19)
Selan (Human Cleric 19)
Lufia (Human Witch 19)
Sir Alkin (Human Warrior of the Holy Light 21)
Now Selan needs to be able to heal and buff during this fight, and to top that off, they need to stop Bargle from being able to teleport out to save his skin and then use Soul Bind to stop him from coming back to life.
Bargle summons a major demon that doesn't really use spells to attack. The demon is buffed with Protection From Spells (making the Banishment effect from Smite Evil almost useless). Bargle himself has Spell Turning and Mirror Image up from the start.
If you can't see now how essential it is to make Spell Resistance a little more powerful, well...
Okay, the Holy Avenger granted Spell Resistance 26 to anyone standing next to Sir Alkin. Holy Aura wasn't an option because it'd already been used. Mayless couldn't use his Patronus Charm because he took a face full of breath weapon in the first round and took half of Selan's damage (Shield Other) on top of it. Right out of the gate, the party was almost dead. Bargle has Spell Perfection Fireball and a ring that automaticall adds Empower and Intensify to fire evocation spells (his most expensive item, his Flame Ring). Now Lufia has a Flash Ring, which was the same thing but with electricity evocation spells. Bargle made himself invisible, and with Spell Penetration feats (which Selan and Lufia did not have) was able to easily bypass the Spell Resistance.
He still needed a 2, though, while if Selan and Lufia had to bypass the SR themselves, they'd have needed a 4 and 5 respectively.
Bargle rolled a freaking 1 on one of his SR rolls, allowing Venda to survive a hit that would have killed him. Sir Alkin got very lucky with his Smite Evil and managed to banish Azazel. Bargle had greater invisibility up, though. It took healing from Sir Alkin, Mayless, Lufia, and Selan to get everyone to be able to survive Bargle's spells. You see, they needed to keep up their hit points to stay out of the harm zone of Avada Kedavra and Power Word spells.
It took a major team effort to win that battle. Eventually Lufia was able to catch Bargle in a Stormbolts spell and kill him. Bargle rolled a 1 on the saving throw for Soul Bind.
Now do you see what I mean? High SR, as written, is only good if you face only casters. If you mix it up, though, and make the encounter dynamic by adding a non-spellcaster to the other side that can do just as much damage, your SR will be one of two things: pointless (too low) or getting you killed (too high). A standard action to lower SR is asinine and ridiculous. Going by your example, it would be like having a harder time hitting because you wear more powerful armor yourself.
One wizard, properly set up, can decimate an entire party of similarly leveled people with SR as written. You balance SR by making it so you can choose to "take the hit" as it were. That way you nerf the unbridled power of wizards, rightfully so. One wizard should not be able to single-handedly take out an entire party. I know they still can even the way I say SR should be handled, but you make it a little less likely.
Now to answer the question of logic: it works like AC, right? Well then, you can voluntarily take a physical hit by just not defending against it, so logic suggests it should be the same with a spell.
Better logic: as written, Spell Resistance is completely useless! On top of that, it makes encounters less dynamic because it takes away options. The PCs would never have beaten Bargle if they'd have had to take a turn to lower SR because Channel Energy only heals so much. At very high levels, it's not gonna heal the damage of the best spells. Heal and Mass Heal are essential! Everyone taking a standard action to lower SR means the enemy gets a free turn.
SR shouldn't have a drawback. It's meant to be a high-level defense. Where's the drawback in a Cloak of Resistance? There isn't one. How about a Belt of Physical Perfection? Nope. In fact, it seems like SR is the only thing that does have a drawback. That makes no sense. That makes it useless.
I run a dynamic game where sometimes the enemy will have casters and physical attackers. I don't have as much room to maneuver if I have to de-power encounters to account for this stupid rule.
Rule 0 it is.
Nicos |
Spell Resistance is an Option in the game. The PCs have to choose whether they use it or not.
Except when it does not. Like monks and holy avengers.
& In Combat healing is a bad idea.
Except when you really really ned that heal seplls to recover 150 hps and eliminate some debuf.
Azaelas Fayth |
A Standard Action for emergency Healing is pretty acceptable. And playing a Monk or Wielding a Holy Avenger is an Option.
If you really want to just add in a clause where it doesn't come into play when dealing with their party's spells or similar circumstances. Maybe make it to where they can lower it as a Free Action.
Darkwolf117 |
Honestly, I think Spell Resistance is ridiculously good. "Oh hey, this enemy is trying to instakill me/knock me out in one shot/effectively cripple me for the rest of the encounter/whatever else. Good thing it needs to get through my spell resistance first!"
Seriously, the ability to completely shrug off magic some % of the time is powerful (and Spell Resistance is generally pretty competitive. You can probably expect to dodge 25-50% or so of spells, depending on what you've got Spell resistance from and the enemies you face).
You can still spend a standard action to let yourself be buffed or healed. So you can be running around, buffed like crazy, while still getting to shrug off tons of spells that might be cast on you. Can it be impractical in combat, costing you an action if you want to let someone affect you with a spell? Yeah. But is it totally worth it? I personally think so.
I admit, maybe it'd be nice if it was easier to handle. I'd consider a move action to be somewhat more appropriate, and once it's down, I don't think it should really need more actions to keep it down... but I still feel that's a small price to pay for the benefit.
Just my opinion, I suppose, but I think it's pretty good as it is.
DreamGoddessLindsey |
A Standard Action for emergency Healing is pretty acceptable. And playing a Monk or Wielding a Holy Avenger is an Option.
If you really want to just add in a clause where it doesn't come into play when dealing with their party's spells or similar circumstances. Maybe make it to where they can lower it as a Free Action.
A standard action to lower SR for emergencies is a horrible thing if you're fighting a powerful wizard and his summoned demon.
Making it a free action (or not an action) is the Rule 0 I would propose. Or simpler yet, SR would only apply if the person with SR wants it to. Make it work similar to saving throws. You can opt to fail a saving throw if you choose, so I think you should be able to not use SR on the spot.
*Insulting Trolling*
There are four custom spells and two custom items, all of which fall well within the realm of existing rules. That hardly means "chock full of house rules".
Honestly, I think Spell Resistance is ridiculously good. "Oh hey, this enemy is trying to instakill me/knock me out in one shot/effectively cripple me for the rest of the encounter/whatever else. Good thing it needs to get through my spell resistance first!"
Seriously, the ability to completely shrug off magic some % of the time is powerful (and Spell Resistance is generally pretty competitive. You can probably expect to dodge 25-50% or so of spells, depending on what you've got Spell resistance from and the enemies you face).
You can still spend a standard action to let yourself be buffed or healed. So you can be running around, buffed like crazy, while still getting to shrug off tons of spells that might be cast on you. Can it be impractical in combat, costing you an action if you want to let someone affect you with a spell? Yeah. But is it totally worth it? I personally think so.
I admit, maybe it'd be nice if it was easier to handle. I'd consider a move action to be somewhat more appropriate, and once it's down, I don't think it should really need more actions to keep it down... but I still feel that's a small price to pay for the benefit.
Just my opinion, I suppose, but I think it's pretty good as it is.
Let me give an example of why the rule sucks. We'll visit the battle I literally just mentioned in my last post, and I'll put it in simpler terms. If I followed the rules as written, the result would have been a wipe. There was nothing whatsoever that could have won the battle for the players. (Note: This is a rough memory of how the battle went, not the exact things.)
Giant Advanced Vavakia "Azazel": Breath Weapon knocks off 25-33% of party's HP and debuffs.
Sir Alkin: Activates Smite Evil and goes after Azazel who is between the party and Bargle.
Venda: Moves forward and attacks Azazel.
Bargle: Quickened damage spell and maximized damage spell, totally almost 75% of what HP was left.
Mayless: Moves out of combat and ends Shield Other on Selan.
Selan: Moves up to support party, uses Dimensional Lock.
Lufia: Also readies spell counter, essential to stop Power Word spells and Avada Kedavra.
Azazel: Tramples party.
Sir Alkin: Uses Power of Faith to give bonuses and buffs.
Venda: Moves to attack Azazel.
Bargle: Another damage spell, rolls low enough for Venda to resist and take no damage, then Quickened Greater Invisibility and uses teleport device that still functions regardless of Dimensional Lock.
Mayless: Heals self and attacks Azazel.
Selan: Uses Mass Heal, which very well might not have gotten through the SR on three people thanks to the Holy Avenger of Sir Alkin.
Lufia: Readies counterspell.
Azazel: Full attack on Sir Alkin.
Sir Alkin: Attacks Azazel and successfully banishes by sheer luck.
Venda: Goes toward where Bargle is.
Bargle: Another major damage spell to lower HP, then Avada Kedavra; Lufia counterspells, then Bargle teleports using device.
Mayless: Moves in position to see Bargle with See Invisibility.
Selan: Readies another counterspell since she doesn't actually know Bargle's exact square.
Lufia: Stormbolts on Mayless's direction to finish off Bargle.
Now if I followed the SR rules as written, they'd all have had to use a standard action, they all lose an action, giving Bargle another two spells, not to mention not having a counterspell up to stop instant death.
Since Azazel could easily get through what defenses Bargle couldn't bypass, it was a one-two punch that would have meant wiping if I followed the rule as written. I'm not out to destroy my players, I just want to challenge them.
BTW that Wizard was fighting
Assuming PC WBL Gear:
Venda CR19
Mayless CR19
Selan CR19
Lufia CR19
Sir Alkin CR21Total CR: 24
That only empowers my point. Bargle was CR 20 (Level 20 Wizard who summoned a powerful demon with True Name) while the party combined was effectively 24! If I ran SR as written, that 20 would have easily crushed the 24. That seems kinda silly, don't you think? Bargle should not have been an impossible boss at CR 20.
Rickmeister |
Summons don't add to challenge rating, but I wouldn't call "True Name" that.
I mean, if was not some stupid low-level dire bear or anything, was it? Probably would have ruled it CR22 VS CR 24..
And hey, wizards are auwie vs melee dudes, especially with greater invisibility and some good bodyguard :)
Morgen |
Yeah it sounds like your party should have died there, especially considering that calling a creature is radically different from summoning one. So that was two roughly CR 20 things in the room not only 1. Quite a lot for your already resource drained APL 19 party to take on certainly. I’m not exactly sure how SR is to blame for any of that, especially when the main cause of the Party’s SR it is a sword that could have been put away affecting people who could have moved another 5 or so feet in one direction to not be adjacent.
I personally don’t believe that spell resistance needs any particularly sweeping changes. It operates properly for what it does not as some kind of AC for spells but as an in between for the total spell immunity versus not at all spell immune. If nothing else this certainly isn’t a good example of it needing it.
StabbittyDoom |
I have a handful of problems with SR, personally:
- 1) It affects AoE spells in ways that don't make sense to me.
- 2) As a PC, if you fight a caster it is often one with higher CL than your level, which means that even with good SR you are almost always still taking the spell > 40% of the time (and that assumes the foe does NOT have/use tools to help overcome SR). On a bad day your SR might be effective as little as 10% of the time (0% if they have the SR-penetrating metamagic, but that's only fair).
- 3) Because your healer/buffer ally is the same level as you, they (barring SR-bypassing techniques) have a success chance of 10-20%% below that of your foe, often putting their success rate below 50/50. Since the buffer/healer type generally doesn't worry about SR (they aren't attacking foes, after all) they almost certainly won't have the SR-penetrating feats/abilities.
- 4) Lowering SR essentially takes your turn despite being a trade-off even without the action.
Personally, I'm considering house-ruling SR at my table:
- 1) SR does not affect spells that do not directly target you. A targeted effect is affected, but not AoE effects like fireball or lightning bolt. Touch attacks are generally affected, but simple energy-damage ones are not (disintegrate is affected, but scorching ray is not).
- 2) SR does not affect spells with the (harmless) descriptor.
Aldarionn |
@ Quintessentially Me - I have never had a player choose Monk as a class, nor have I ever played a Monk so it has never come up for us. For races that can get SR (Tiefling variant abilities and such) I usually remove it from the table of options along with raw stat boosts. There are very few ways for PC's to get SR, most of them being spells, and in most cases there are far better options for buffs in spell slots than ones that give SR. Ward Shield is probably the only exception and in most cases it's a healer that gets it, meaning they don't have to check against their own SR to heal.
@ DreamGoddessLindsey - There WAS a lot of stuff in that fight that did not conform to the rules. Two rings that add a pair of Metamagic feats for free to every spell of a certain elemental type is ABSURDLY powerful, for PC's OR enemies. An Empowered Intensified Meteor Swarm is a 12th level spell and you can't even do that with Spell Perfection! It's basically two, unlimited use metamagic rods in a single item. Those kinds of items should NEVER be in a position to fall into the hands of PC's and there are far better ways to improve the power of a BBEG than by giving him made up magic items. Generally just adding a custom template gives you the power to give him abilities you want him to have without giving him items that should cost as much as a level 20 character's entire budget.
Don't even get me started on custom spells.
I will say that if a single 20th level caster can take on a party of five nearly equal level enemies (absurd magic items aside) you must have given him some crazy stats. Let me ask a few questions:
1-What stat generation system did you use for PC's?
2-What stat generation system did you use for the BBEG?
3-What other gear/special rules did you give the BBEG?
4-What preparatory spells did the BBEG cast on himself?
5-What preparatory spells did the PC's cast on themselves?
6-How much information did the party have on the BBEG before confronting him?
7-How many other fights had they faced immediately before facing him? (IE how many resources did they have?)
8-How much time did they have to prepare to fight him?
9-What did the terrain look like?
A single caster character summoning a single powerful Demon should not be a challenge for a party of five even moderately powerful characters unless he has some pretty big DM homebrew boosts, especially not when the PCs have custom magic items and custom spells at their disposal. Also, a 19th level character only fails to bypass SR 26 on a 7 and only if he doesn't have any form of Caster Level increase or Spell Penetration. Most healing should easily have gotten through the SR, and if they expect SR26 to protect against a kitted out 20th level spellcaster, they are fooling themselves.
There are very easy ways to incapacitate single, heavy damage dealing spellcasters. Debilitating Portent forces a will save every time he deals damage, and if he fails he only does half. Blindness/Deafness is a fortitude save or he can't see to pick targets. Waves of Exhaustion grants no save and gives him some nasty stat penalties and action limitations. Stinking Cloud, among other spells, can Nauseate him and potentially keep him from taking anything but a move action. Greater Dispel Magic gets rid of any buffs he has, or potentially suppresses the ring, and Mage's Disjunction could render some of his gear useless. These are just a few of the many hundreds of ways the party could have dealt with him, and while not all of them are guaranteed to work, it never hurts to try.
Basically my point is that they likely had some forewarning of who and what this BBEG was, or they did not do their research. If they knew anything about him, they could easily have prepared to fight a strong spellcaster. The Spell Resistance was not the problem in this case. That said, I do agree that Spell Resistance is a bad mechanic, but not necessarily for the reasons you are stating. Most Spell Resistance is 11 + Challenge Rating, and any creature of equal Challenge Rating to the party should expect to get steamrolled fairly quickly. So a single creature 1-3 CR's above the party that has SR will generally mean Spellcasters have a less than 50% chance for anything to land unless they have Spell Penetration. That is innately poor design, but it would take an overhaul of how spells work in order to fix.
zacronos |
CR of the enemy force is not meant to be compared to a party's CR, it is meant to be compared to a party's APL (average party level), after adjusting for larger- or smaller-than-normal party. In this case, with 4 PCs of level 19 and 1 PC of level 21, your party had an effective APL of 19.4.
Bargle and Azazel are each CR 20 opponents alone. The fact that Bargle had to use a standard action to get Azazel there doesn't justify ignoring Azazel's contribution as a "summoned" creature -- and I don't care if the RAW say that's what you should do. Bargle might as well have spent a standard action to activate an alarm of some sort calling in Azazel from the next room; the effective challenge to the party would have been the same, except that Bargle is out a feat this way. That missing feat doesn't even begin to balance out Azazel's contribution.
Plus, by my reading of the Advanced and Giant templates, each of them bumps the HD of the creature by +2, so Azazel was a 22HD creature -- beyond the 18HD limit of True Name. That should seal the deal. Azazel counts as an additional CR 20 opponent, giving the overall encounter a CR of 22.
So, you've got your 19.4 APL party facing a 22 CR encounter. That puts it between the "hard" and "epic" difficulties for the party, according to http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html And you're doing this when, in your words, they've already expended "most of the PCs resources".
Yeah, it should have been tough. It should have been borderline "epic" even if they'd had most or all of their resources to bring to bear. The fact that they lived only through luck of the dice doesn't in any way indicate that SR isn't good enough with rules as written -- it just shows that they were in over their heads by taking it on after a "grueling stage".
With all that said, I wouldn't personally be against house ruling something for SR. But I agree with Morgen, this is not at all a good example to show the need for it.
Starbuck_II |
If it's intended and ruled as written, that would make every class with Spell Resistance unplayable once they have it on top of making the Holy Avenger one of the worst items to have. Having to use a standard action to let a spell through is so mind-numbingly stupid that I can't help but think that it wasn't intended to be this way. At most it should be a free action, or preferably it shouldn't be an action at all and should be droppable at any time the same way you can choose to fail a saving throw.
Yes, SR works vs beneficial spells.
I'm surprised there hasn't been a spell version that gave hostile SR.Paladins can cure themselves with their own spells/own scrolls/own wands/Lay on hands.
Haven't you always wondered why Drow have SR? Because they don't trust each other.
Cleric Drow are better than non-cleric because they can bypass on SR to heal. And who trusts there allies enough to waste a stamdard to drop SR.
Personally, it would better to get a +2 saves than SR (like Dwarves get).
Darkwolf117 |
@ DreamGoddessLindsey: I read your example the first time, and there was no need to bring it up again. I don't think it does anything to suggest that Spell Resistance was problematic in that scenario. But, let's take a look at it.
First off, I want to give one important distinction. Your SR in this example is from a Holy Avenger. At level 19-20. That thing gives SR 26, and your BBEG had spell penetration feats while your party casters didn't. That is obviously going to favor the enemy caster (and was everyone crowded around the Paladin or something to make use of it or something?). As you pointed out originally, the enemy needed a 2 or higher to get through the SR (26-20-4 = 2). How about we check with actual level appropriate SR though?
Cleric casts Spell Resistance, granting 12+CL. That's SR 31 (19 being the CL, I think?). Your BBEG now needs to roll a 7 or higher to penetrate SR. That's a 30% miss chance on all of his spells and that's with two feats spent to improve his odds. Without those feats, he's failing on half of all of his spells to affect characters with SR.
So, with that out of the way, let's move on to your example.
Advanced Vavakia "Azazel": Breath Weapon knocks off 25-33% of party's HP and debuffs.
...
Bargle: Quickened damage spell and maximized damage spell, totally almost 75% of what HP was left.
...
Lufia: Also readies spell counter, essential to stop Power Word spells and Avada Kedavra.
So, the entire party was hanging out directly next to each other, and took three AoEs. Not the brightest way to start a fight, but that's incidental I guess. Anyway, the party lost 75% of their current HP to two spells. Kinda seems like if they had, say, a 30-50% miss chance on both of those, they'd have been in better condition afterwards. And Power Word spells? Subject to spell resistance, despite their No Save status.
...
Bargle: Another damage spell, rolls low enough for Venda to resist and take no damage, then Quickened Greater Invisibility and uses teleport device that still functions regardless of Dimensional Lock.
Mayless: Heals self and attacks Azazel.
Selan: Uses Mass Heal, which very well might not have gotten through the SR on three people thanks to the Holy Avenger of Sir Alkin.
...
So, again, a damaging spell.
Then we get to these Heals. First off, with actual level appropriate SR, the party likely would have not been in bad condition in the first place. Despite this though, there's 2 people still clustered around your Paladin, getting the benefits of an SR that is pretty much paltry compared to your BBEG, but hampering the rest of the party. Seriously, why?
Let me go off on a tangent here. The Paladin can get SR for himself and adjacent allies. If you need the Cleric to heal you in battle, then yes, SR is probably not the best way to go and especially not an SR that hinders your allies and does nothing for you. But Paladins can heal themselves actually. As a swift action. Round after round, besides having pretty high HP in the first place, and amazing saves. So really, the Paladin gets a lot of benefit when soaking up enemy spells, and they can still keep themselves healthy. Why everybody else that would rely on Heals from the Cleric to stay alive was clustered around the Paladin, I just can't entirely comprehend. But okay. I guess let's move on.
...
Bargle: Another major damage spell to lower HP, then Avada Kedavra;
This is another 1 or 2 spells subject to SR (assuming Avada Kedavra would be?), before the battle ends.
So, let's recap. There were 4 spells thrown at the party that did major damage and might have been negated with level appropriate SR (and spread out amongst some AoEs makes for several possibilities to miss it for each).
Contrast, there were two Heal Spells, one of them being Mass, and quite possibly neither of them being necessary if some of those damaging spells ran up against SR.
So... yeah. I really don't see how your example makes it seem like SR is bad. Sounds like, if it was being used successfully, it would have helped a lot actually.
Edit: But that's just how I see it, I suppose.
asthyril |
SR is amazingly powerful. You are blocking the enemy's magic without having to do anything. Just stand there and let the fireball roar around you with no effect.
It makes perfect sense that you should also have a hard time accepting the good magic. That's the price for being nearly immune to hostile magic.
If there isn't a hefty drawback, then everyone would take it.
i question your definition of 'nearly immune to hostile magic' since every enemy caster you will go against will be high enough to get through a player's SR with a 7+
Darkwolf117 |
@ Azaelas: According to d20pfsrd, Vavakias are CR 18. Advanced and Giant templates are +1 each, so CR 20, I guess? (Finicky creature templates notwithstanding. I'm not entirely positive if they always make sense.)
Aldarionn |
I still don't see how a single caster and an advanced Demon were able to be such a pain unless the party was inept. I understand that if they had previously used a number of resources this encounter might be quite a bit harder, but they HAD to know it was coming. It doesn't seem like the kind of encounter one just stumbles upon in a dungeon. This kind of thing gets noticed, and likely they were there to deal with it specifically.
Sir Alkin (Human Warrior of the Holy Light 21) (Not even sure how you do that....) should have been able to solo either one. With proper stat distribution, reasonable gear for level, feat selection and the right weapon, fighting a big snarly Demon is what Paladins are all about. Of course Warrior of the Holy Light removes their Spellcasting so it's up to the other one to use Litany of Righteousness, but seriously, a Paladin of this caliber should not have such serious difficulty, and can heal the party in a pinch (and notably does not suffer from Spell Resistance)
Venda (Human Two-Weapon Warrior 19) - Two-Weapon Warriors are legit with the right build. Moving and making full attacks, especially with haste and one or two buffs. The damage they deal is not negligible in the least.
Mayless (Human Paladin 19) - This guy isn't even bound by the silly 20th level restrictions of Smite Evil like Sir Alkin. His smite will do actual damage to Azazel and he is just as effective against an evil spellcaster.
Selan (Human Cleric 19) - Healbot? I can understand the Cleric having SOME difficulty from the SR the Holy Avenger provides if not designed to deal with SR. But still, a large amount of healing should get through.
Lufia (Human Witch 19) - Witches can either be REALLY good or REALLY bad. Assuming a decent ACF, good feat and hex selection, and a decent set of spells, this character should have been able to counter some of what the BBEG did, and possibly even incapacitate him.
The two Paladins is what makes me wonder how this went so bad. Paladins, when built at all intelligently, are one of the most powerful classes in the game. I'm playing one currently in an ongoing campaign and the damage it deals is disgusting. The party should have spread out, then focus fired on one target or the other (Probably the boss, because the Demon is easily killed after the spellcaster goes away). Seems like they mismanaged their resources, then stumbled unprepared into a fight against someone that they did not know how to counter and huddled together allowing him to deal damage to everyone at once.
DreamGoddessLindsey |
Say what?
What device?
How?
Also, what action cost is there to use it? Bargle cast a spell (standard) and a Quickened spell (swift) AND teleported?
Bargle had teleport devices spread throughout the room. Activating the device was a move action. So basically Standard Action Spell plus Quickened Spell plus Move Action Teleport. The catch was that teleports only worked between the devices and nowhere else. They were keyed to each other. The room layout was weird, too, definitely in Bargle's favor since they were in his inner sanctum. Um, let me try to show the layout. Maybe that'll help. Each "X" is a teleport device.
Bugger, ASCII doesn't work here. The room was a very large square room with four square pillars a bit out from each corner. Each of the nine boxes of the room had a teleport device, Bargle started by one of them, Azazel in front of him, and the party at the bottom of the room in front of Azazel.
I have a handful of problems with SR, personally:
- 1) It affects AoE spells in ways that don't make sense to me.
- 2) As a PC, if you fight a caster it is often one with higher CL than your level, which means that even with good SR you are almost always still taking the spell > 40% of the time (and that assumes the foe does NOT have/use tools to help overcome SR). On a bad day your SR might be effective as little as 10% of the time (0% if they have the SR-penetrating metamagic, but that's only fair).
- 3) Because your healer/buffer ally is the same level as you, they (barring SR-bypassing techniques) have a success chance of 10-20%% below that of your foe, often putting their success rate below 50/50. Since the buffer/healer type generally doesn't worry about SR (they aren't attacking foes, after all) they almost certainly won't have the SR-penetrating feats/abilities.
- 4) Lowering SR essentially takes your turn despite being a trade-off even without the action.
Personally, I'm considering house-ruling SR at my table:
You actually summed it up better than I did, and with better points that my battle example. I don't think I agree about AoE spells, but that's pretty much how I feel. My house rule would just be "people with SR can opt not to use it against any spell they choose".
@ DreamGoddessLindsey - There WAS a lot of stuff in that fight that did not conform to the rules. Two rings that add a pair of Metamagic feats for free to every spell of a certain elemental type is ABSURDLY powerful, for PC's OR enemies. An Empowered Intensified Meteor Swarm is a 12th level spell and you can't even do that with Spell Perfection! It's basically two, unlimited use metamagic rods in a single item.
I designed the rings based on the metamagic rods, actually. I looked at the prices and did some math. I noticed the rods are roughly prices based on the level adjustment of the metamagic feats. A Greater Maximize Metamagic Rod is 121,500 GP in cost, and gives three spell levels three times a day to any spell. The rings I made basically do something similar: three spell levels (one for Intensify and two for Empower), but only effect a very specific subset of spells (evocation spells of a specific energy descriptor only), so I made it unlimited use. Remember, though, that Intensify only matters if you have the levels to get the extra dice and only if the dice are level-dependent. This also means the rings only effect spells that can be resisted with Resist Energy and Protection From Energy. Still, it is a sizable chunk of wealth, almost as much as a +5 Book.
On a side note, an Intensified Meteor Swarm does nothing since it has no level-dependent damage dice. Meteor Swarm is actually a pitiful spell, which is why I never see it used by players and never use it as a DM. Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting, and Stormbolts are almost always going to do more damage.
I will say that if a single 20th level caster can take on a party of five nearly equal level enemies (absurd magic items aside) you must have given him some crazy stats. Let me ask a few questions:
1-What stat generation system did you use for PC's?
5d6, drop the lowest two dice, per stat. I run fairly high epic.
2-What stat generation system did you use for the BBEG?
I'm starting to think no one here knows who Bargle the Infamous is. Damn, now I feel old. He was the wizard antagonist in the old red box set of D&D0 for Mystara. I actually got his base (Level 1) stats from his entry in the Karameikos Gazetteer.
Level 1: STR 9, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 18, WIS 9, CHA 15.
Level 20: STR 10, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 21, WIS 10, CHA 15.
Level 20 (w/Old Age and Potions of Longevity): STR 10, DEX 17, CON 10, INT 23, WIS 12, CHA 17.
Level 20 (w/Books): STR 10, DEX 17, CON 15, INT 28, WIS 17, CHA 17.
Level 20 (w/Items): STR 10, DEX 23, CON 21, INT 34, WIS 23, CHA 17.
3-What other gear/special rules did you give the BBEG?
Here's his gear list. Note it's over the normal Level 20 gear for PCs because he's been Level 20 for, um, roughly a decade. The PCs, however, are Level 19 after only three years of adventuring. I suppose Bargle has maybe the gear of a PC at Level... 21? Value is 1,040,302 GP... BUT, several of those items weren't in play at all. The Greater Horn of Blasting is a leftover from an earlier encounter and wasn't used (and in fact I'd forgotten he had that). The Boots of Teleportation were redundant since he had Teleport on Contingency anyway, they were just a plot device to give him some plot armor up until this point (in that he liked to teleport in to taunt the characters several times for the fun of it). I also concluded that since he has Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, I only charged half price for a couple of the items. Total working wealth used: 871,302 GP.
bonded human bane unholy dagger +2 (50,302), bracers of armor +8 (64,000), headband of mental prowess +6 (90,000), belt of physical might +6 (90,000), ring of protection +5 (50,000), flame ring (121,500), amulet of natural armor +5 (50,000), dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000), cloak of resistance +5 (25,000), robe of runes (44,000), boots of teleportation (49,000), greater horn of blasting (70,000), pearl of power IX (81,000), tome of clear thought +5 (137,500), tome of understanding +5 (137,500), manual of bodily health +5 (137,500)
4-What preparatory spells did the BBEG cast on himself?
Contingency with Teleport (which they knew about and is why they needed Dimensional Anchor), Mirror Image, Stoneskin (useless since the characters all had +4 or higher anyway), Spell Turning, and Protection From Spells (also on Azazel).
5-What preparatory spells did the PC's cast on themselves?
Only the long duration spells and what little they had remaining. Hex Ward on Selan and Lufia (in case Bargle threw a witch at them), Heroes' Feast, Mayless had Shield Other on Selan (which came back to hurt him bad at the start of the battle), Communal Resist Fire (the only reason they survived his first volley of fire spells), and Lufia had Moment of Prescience (which saved her). Selan's Spell Resistance was already used up in a battle with an Aleax, during which she also lost her Nine Lives casting to Dispel Magic. Holy Aura had already been used up in an earlier Balor encounter if I recall the timing correctly. Mayless had already spent both of his Divine Favor castings and a Prayer. I think that's it.
6-How much information did the party have on the BBEG before confronting him?
They knew he was the most powerful wizard on the continent, had enough power to obliterate Venda's hometown and turn everyone there into undead, that he mainly used fire spells, and that he used Clone and Teleport excessively. They did not know he had True Name or his own little playroom.
7-How many other fights had they faced...
An Aleax based on Selan, a bunch of high-level mutated goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, several deathtraps, a Level 19 Sorcerer with two Level 17 Wizards at the same time, a Balor, a Pseudonatural (epic level handbook version) Gold-Clad Dire Bat (with an AC so high no one could hit it so Selan with her caster level +19 against outsiders had to hit a couple damage spells and Power Word Kill), some guards, and Venda's brother (Bard 18) and sister (Archaeologist 11/Pistolero 7) while under Imperio. So roughly 11 CR 19+ encounters.
It was brutal.
Bargle and Azazel are each CR 20 opponents alone. The fact that Bargle had to use a standard action to get Azazel there doesn't justify ignoring Azazel's contribution as a "summoned" creature -- and I don't care if the RAW say that's what you should do. Bargle might as well have spent a standard action to activate an alarm of some sort calling in Azazel from the next room; the effective challenge to the party would have been the same, except that Bargle is out a feat this way. That missing feat doesn't even begin to balance out Azazel's contribution.
Well that's how it's written in the rules. These two rules are not compatible for certain.
Plus, by my reading of the Advanced and Giant templates, each of them bumps the HD of the creature by +2, so Azazel was a 22HD creature -- beyond the 18HD limit of True Name. That should seal the deal. Azazel counts as an additional CR 20 opponent, giving the overall encounter a CR of 22.
Neither template adds HD. That's why I used them. I figured that, being such a powerful and intelligent caster, he wouldn't just use True Name to learn of an average 18 HD beastie. That would have been lame and insta-killed.
So, you've got your 19.4 APL party facing a 22 CR encounter. That puts it between the "hard" and "epic" difficulties for the party, according to http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html And you're doing this when, in your words, they've already expended "most of the PCs resources".
According to the rules, though, it's APL 20 (average 19 plus 1 for a fifth member) versus CR 20.
Yeah, it should have been tough. It should have been borderline "epic" even if they'd had most or all of their resources to bring to bear. The fact that they lived only through luck of the dice doesn't in any way indicate that SR isn't good enough with rules as written -- it just shows that they were in over their heads by taking it on after a "grueling stage".
With all that said, I wouldn't personally be against house ruling something for SR. But I agree with Morgen, this is not at all a good example to show the need for it.
Okay, yeah, probably a bad example. I admit that. Still, the poster above me certainly made my points better than I did.
So, the entire party was hanging out directly next to each other, and took three AoEs. Not the brightest way to start a fight, but that's incidental I guess.
They started the battle next to each other. Since both enemies were right in front, they had few movement choices. Bargle's spells were able to hit them no matter what formation they were in.
Anyway, the party lost 75% of their current HP to two spells. Kinda seems like if they had, say, a 30-50% miss chance on both of those, they'd have been in better condition afterwards. And Power Word spells? Subject to spell resistance, despite their No Save status.
As the poster above me said, putting your SR against a high level caster with Spell Penetration when your healer/buffer doesn't have said feats is suicide.
Ok if the creature is through True Name it counts for CR. So you take the Wizard's CR20 + Whatever-the-Frak-he-had-bonded's CR and see what the thing is. Can someone get me what the CR of the Demon is?
Source? From what I understand, True Name still counts as a summon and summons never count toward CR or XP. The demon was CR 20, by the way.
Ok CR18 means that it would be CR20 so that means it is a total CR22 encounter for the PCs. From what I have seen the encounter was weighted in favor of the Wizard/Demon combo do to Player's making bad choices.
The players didn't really make bad choices. They were fighting for survival from the opening attack when Azazel won initiative and creamed them with his breath weapon. I didn't see any outright mistakes. They went out of their way not to take chances until Lufia cast Stormbolts.
Darkwolf117 |
As the poster above me said, putting your SR against a high level caster with Spell Penetration when your healer/buffer doesn't have said feats is suicide.
Right, but the fact that they can't get through SR that the opponent can isn't the fault of the SR system (though it's admittedly skewed slightly in enemy favor). And as I said, if it was level appropriate, it would have actually given the enemy wizard pause and blocked several of his spells. Instead, it was pretty much an autosuccess to him, while your spellcasters were worse off. Having to roll 5 higher is a lot, but that's because they didn't have the Spell Pen feats that the wizard did. If they had, it would have been a difference of 1 and nearly as simple for them to bypass.
I guess my point here is, it just happened to be at the exact point that it was nothing to the enemy, but a slight hindrance to the party. Again, not from the SR mechanics, but because of feat choices and the level of SR being used.
Different point: The party was going into his inner sanctum, knowing that they were going to be battling him. No one thought maybe it would be worth buffing before combat, where needing to lower SR wouldn't matter? (I mean, since you didn't run it as SR is meant to be, obviously they wouldn't bother, but prebuffing for a big fight makes a huge difference anyway. Being prebuffed and having spell resistance that actually causes problems for your enemy is that much better).
FrinkiacVII |
Given all the moving parts and other complications that the game has at level ~20, I don't think the SR rules as written were to blame for any one encounter at that level not going like some might have thought it should. That's just my opinion. It's also my opinion that the game is so inherently overpowered by about level 15+ and things just go haywire somehow, eventually. Encounters at high levels are difficult to balance and often very one-sided, making them harder to construct in the first place, and the party makeup has a lot to do with that too. Also, if the party members know how spell resistance works (which they should by level 18) then any trouble it caused in that particular fight should have been nothing new to the PCs. I mean, was this the first encounter where they had SR to deal with? If it wasn't, then they ought to understand how it works by now and be able to adjust accordingly. Even if they did know how it works, and had a plan, and executed the plan, it is my opinion that they still could have gotten party wiped or won easily based solely on the dice rolling.
Also, I want to point out that I play clerics a lot, and one pet peeve of mine is that (and I think this goes way back to the Gygaxian era as well) the cleric seems to get a lot of stuff that doesn't work as-advertized, after you read the fine print. Look at spells like Smite Evil (or Holy Smite, or whatever it's called). It's an AoE damage spell that does d6/lvl damage against evil outsiders. In other words, it's a spell you're supposed to use against demons, right? So you prepare it, you go into a fight against a demon and what happens? Your DM explains to you that you're not likely to encounter a large group of demons all in a big mob (so the AoE nature of it is less appealing because you're usually just fighting one big bad evil demon) and that virtually ALL evil outsiders have something called "Spell Resistance" which makes your anti-demon SPELL a lot less powerful (because it allows SR). It's like they handed you a gun called the "gun for use against bullet proof enemies" and when you pull the trigger you find out it doesn't actually pierce the bulletproof armor and any special way. The cleric spell list is rife with examples of this sort of stuff. In a game where people take turns moving, Magic Circle against Evil is permanently disabled for a PC the FIRST time they move out of the 10ft circle. This means the entire party has to huddle together and inchworm its way around the place one 5ft step at a time. The list goes on. The point I'm making is, there's LOT of stuff in there that doesn't work the way one might want it to, and that's intentional on the part of the original writers. I'm personally convinced some spells are just in there so that badguys can use them against the party (why else would Hold Person be level 2-3 while Hold Monster is higher level?). I think others are just plain bad and not worth using at all. I don't always agree with all of it, I strongly dislike some of it, I even houserule some of the stuff I dislike when I DM. That's ok, it's your game as DM, you can do that. I'm not telling you not to. I'm just saying that in my opinion, though the SR rules might seem "bad", I think they actually add to the challenge and fun as they are and would make the game less fun if houseruled otherwise. If you disagree and want to change it, go right ahead. I've houseruled stuff, and I considered the question of houseruling SR, but I decided I liked it better the way it is, in this case. Your mileage may vary.
phatbac |
As far as SR being awful because of a standard action to lower it:
Out of combat buffs and healing, makes no difference. You generally only get about one in-combat buff max and you shouldn't be doing healing in combat unless its Channel or Paladin's LOH for himself which aren't affected by SR. I don't see how making every spell caster you go up against roll to see if their spells work on you is bad at all. Seems like a pretty awesome ability to me.
As a player If you don't like the ability as RAW then don't use it. As a GM you can run your game however is most fun to you, so feel free to house rule whatever you like.
DreamGoddessLindsey |
Also, I want to point out that I play clerics a lot, and one pet peeve of mine is that (and I think this goes way back to the Gygaxian era as well) the cleric seems to get a lot of stuff that doesn't work as-advertized, after you read the fine print. Look at spells like Smite Evil (or Holy Smite, or whatever it's called). It's an AoE damage spell that does d6/lvl damage against evil outsiders. In other words, it's a spell you're supposed to use against demons, right? So you prepare it, you go into a fight against a demon and what happens? Your DM explains to you that you're not likely to encounter a large group of demons all in a big mob (so the AoE nature of it is less appealing because you're usually just fighting one big bad evil demon) and that virtually ALL evil outsiders have something called "Spell Resistance" which makes your anti-demon SPELL a lot less powerful (because it allows SR). It's like they handed you...
I think that's why a favored class bonus option for clerics is caster level up against outsiders. Any cleric suspecting that demons are coming up should invest all their favored bonuses into that. The party cleric in the campaign I'm running never worries about SR when fighting demons or devils since she has an effective +38 against their SR (Level 19 and +19 in favored class bonuses).
you shouldn't be doing healing in combat unless its Channel or Paladin's LOH for himself
Do none of you make battles difficult enough to necessitate Heal or Mass Heal?
Does SR even work on Potions and Items that mimic Spells? IIRC it doesn't.
By the time SR is an issue, potions mean nothing whatsoever. SR operates as usual with staves or wands or an item that casts a spell.