A wizard's spell list is quite a fair way better than a witch's spell list, I think that's the big one. They trade access to a lot of good spells for a bunch of kinda-at-will powers. Usually it's a pretty good trade, and the witch is a powerful and neat class, especially if you want to do debuffs against single targets.
A straight arcane caster, even one with a hair-based reach weapon, shouldn't be fighting on-CR opponents in melee, or they're going to die bloody. That's what the rest of the party is for. You can do it, if you put a lot of effort into it, but it's generally not a good resource investment.
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You can only really affect a single foe effectively. There are some area effect and crowd control, but you have to be careful not to hit your allies.
Your spell list is more limited than a wizards, and are mostly enchantment and necromancy. There are spells from other schools, but there are few abjuration and evocation spells. A narrow focus with spells means a narrow focus on who you can target.
Their familiar is way too important and if lost a great deal of spells know are lost with it.
The Witch has a much more limited spell selection than the Wizard on the top end. Even at lower levels, the spells available are not of the same caliber as the Wizard receives. Some of the best spells are dependent on your patron, which locks you out of other spells.
Unless you're a Gravewalker (banned in PFS) or the Half-Elf archetype (I call them the Harry Potter Witches), then you have a very fragile spellbook in the form of a familiar.
I can't deny the power of Slumber, Misfortune, Evil Eye, and Cackle. They're simply top tier abilities, Misfortune especially. I think the Witch is a great class and is incredibly flavorful to boot.
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Witches are almost all about ENCHANTMENT.
This means they are incredibly vulnerable to undead, constructs, and anything else that is immune to mind-affecting effects. Their hexes are hampered, most of their spells won't work.
The familiar is a huge liability as well, unlike a wizard's spellbook. If you take it out, you'll want to be damn sure it's safe, or safe enough.
Also, I'm not sure what makes you think Slumber doesn't stay useful for long; you can bet it most certainly will stay useful. Tack on the Split Hex feat for double the dreaming.
The "downside" to playing a witch is that witches tend to impact the game in ways that are not as blindingly obvious as other casters. Witch hexes and many witch spells are designed to frustrate the opposition instead of crushing them. Playing a witch can sometimes feel as if you aren't doing much since the result of your debuffs may not be immediately obvious, or if your GM rolls secretly, it may not be visible at all.
Otherwise witches are among the most powerful classes in the game, and those debuffs can be quite crippling, whether obvious our not.
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1) Less powerful spell list.
2) Fragile spellbook/familiar
3) You are a support class. The witch works best as a support class and can be devastating if played well. But at times as has been stated above it can feel like you are not doing a lot.
Now there is a lot of pro's to playing a witch though. I think more pro's than cons.
I find witches to generaly be a closer range spell caster. Many of their early hexes have a 30 foot range and many of their early spells have a range of close. Wizards on the other hand maintain most of their effectiveness from 100+ feet away. Being a squishy caster inside charge range is pretty scary.
They have very little ranged damage dealing potential.
As others have noted their spell list isn't quite top tier. Many creatures are immune to entire swaths of it.
Their familiar has a huge bullseye painted on it.
Also they have fewer spells/day thanks to the wizards school slots.
Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of witches. They're alot of fun but they do have some liabilities.
- Torger
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The downside to witch is it's not a magus... but then, thats the down side to every class thats not a magus.
Absent Sleep or the Ice Tomb hex, its fairly difficult for a Witch to really kill anything. None of the hexes are, alone, sufficient to kill something. You do get some damaging spells but not a whole lot of them.
If the team goes down and its you vs the bad guy.. you can debuff it to utter frustration but you are likely going to not be able to kill it either. At least not very quickly.
As others have said- "immune to mind effects" is the true bane of the witch.
Flip through the hexes and find the ones that work against targets with no mind. There are some but there aren't very many.
Misfortune.. I think there is a major hex that works too.
No/low armor, few HP, not much access to the traditional "protective" spells (depending on your Patron, but few if any get alot of them).
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-S
Downside - "slumber" - It's really good. So you use it alot... Combat? Enemies don't look immune to sleep? Then I'll do the same as i did the last fight and the fight before that...
The Witch is really good at what he/she does. But a friend told me - I didn't wanna play a witch again - just casting slumber again and again.
Sure yoou end fights. But if you finish a fight (with slumber) it wasn't a great fight, since it was pretty much just you using an ability an the GM rolling a d20. If you didn't end the fight (because the Gm made the save) you spend actions doing nothing...
Sure you have options, an not every fight has to be slumber or nothing, but some will, an it can get a little boring...
At least the fighter get's to walk up to the sleeping beuty and Coup de Grace her/him. Roling some dices...
The downside to witch is it's not a magus... but then, thats the down side to every class thats not a magus.
Heh, when reading this my mind's eye could not help picturing Hobbes, from Calvin & Hobbes saying this but with "magus" replaced by "tiger".
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My witch died at level 5 when she got caught in the steaming breath of a dragon turtle. That was a bit of a downside :(
To be honest, the biggest thing I worried about was effectively using my familiar, without getting it killed. In game terms it is my spell book as well as my familiar. That would have sucked since I'd invested a bit of time and money into infusing my Fox with new spell knowledge.
In character terms, my fox was the source of my power and the conduit for whatever my benefactor was who was providing me with the power I needed and wanted.
As it turns out, getting steamed to death while your companion is riding in your backpack about 60 feet over water leads to the death of the companion as well. Sigh.
Cheers
The Monty Python references.
As stated by other a Witch does not have as good a spell list as a Wizard or Sorc. You are not going to blast anyone to pieces as a Witch.. Intend to buff our Barb and Hide behind him.
But as for the familiar, I use a Raven and use it as a scout/messenger and avoid anything that looks dangerous.
I agree with most of what's been said, but I want to be more specific on one point, the witch's spell list as compared to the wizard's.
1) Witch has very few spells that deal damage. (evocation, clouds, pits, etc.) This may seem minor because people are always saying "Blast is bad" but even control-oriented wizards usually keep a few damaging spells around for enemies who are immune or highly resistant to weapon damage (swarms, incorporeal, etc.) and for finishing off enemies who are close to death before they get another round to full attack.
2) There are key arcane spells you'll really miss: Haste, Teleport, Protection from Evil (and its kin), Resist Energy (and kin), Invisibility (and kin), Stoneskin, Wall of (anything), Permanency, Telekinesis, etc. Your patron can fill in a couple of these, but most are simply unavailable.
I have two favorite circumstances for adding a witch to a party, when there is no full arcane or divine caster, or when there's already one of each and some melee.
2) There are key arcane spells you'll really miss: Haste, Teleport, Protection from Evil (and its kin), Resist Energy (and kin), Invisibility (and kin), Stoneskin, Wall of (anything), Permanency, Telekinesis, etc. Your patron can fill in a couple of these, but most are simply unavailable.
Witches are awesome, but this by Blueluck kind of sums it up.
Witches are almost all about ENCHANTMENT.
This means they are incredibly vulnerable to undead, constructs, and anything else that is immune to mind-affecting effects. Their hexes are hampered, most of their spells won't work.
The familiar is a huge liability as well, unlike a wizard's spellbook. If you take it out, you'll want to be damn sure it's safe, or safe enough.
Also, I'm not sure what makes you think Slumber doesn't stay useful for long; you can bet it most certainly will stay useful. Tack on the Split Hex feat for double the dreaming.
Not really. It's about 1/3 enchantments, 1/3 necromancy and 1/3 divination with splatterings of the other schools in there and it waxes and wanes depending on spell level.
Downside - "slumber" - It's really good. So you use it alot... Combat? Enemies don't look immune to sleep? Then I'll do the same as i did the last fight and the fight before that...
The Witch is really good at what he/she does. But a friend told me - I didn't wanna play a witch again - just casting slumber again and again.
Sure yoou end fights. But if you finish a fight (with slumber) it wasn't a great fight, since it was pretty much just you using an ability an the GM rolling a d20. If you didn't end the fight (because the Gm made the save) you spend actions doing nothing...Sure you have options, an not every fight has to be slumber or nothing, but some will, an it can get a little boring...
At least the fighter get's to walk up to the sleeping beuty and Coup de Grace her/him. Roling some dices...
Having run a campaign with a witch player, this is an element that shouldn't be overlooked. The witch's offense is a bit more concentrated in scope than a wizard's and that may feel monotonous to some players, even if it is pretty darn effective.
One other thing I've noticed - a substantial number of hexes that have been added to the witch are a bit more NPC-focused than adventuring PC-focused. They're great for that witch who the PCs may encounter or have to negotiate with for information. They may even do OK for a PC in a campaign with a fairly static location (and who doesn't mind having some unsavory hexes). But for a campaign in which the PCs move around a lot from adventure site to adventure site? Not so much. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think a little more variety for the adventurous witch might have helped that narrow offensive bandwidth issue.
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and Prehensile Hair which gives the Witch a reach weapon that puts her on par with a fighter early.
... What?
I'm sorry, I don't want to derail things but I just have to know what you mean by this particular line. It's just so out there that I'm curious.
Sorcerers can wield long spears after all. There are reach weapons on the simple weapons list. Wizards can make their arcane bonds in reach weapons and gain proficiency, etc. I don't know why they would but they can.
To me, arcane casters come in 3 types. Control, buff/debuff, and damage. The witch spell list really only lends itself to buff debuff and mostly debuff. It doesnt have the best control spells, and its kind of limited on it's variety of damage spells. But this is more then made up for with access to some usually divine only spells (particularly with the healing patron), and rather useful (particularly at low levels where full casters struggle) hexes. I'm playing a witch right now and I love it. I really like the hexes in general, as I'm also playing a hexcrafter magus.
The main problem with witches is they have no great option to battle mindless things.
Witches can cast swarms blueluck
Yes, that's true. Witches can both summon and vomit swarms.
Unfortunately, they aren't very good at killing swarms because they lack AOE damage spells.
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and Prehensile Hair which gives the Witch a reach weapon that puts her on par with a fighter early.... What?
I'm sorry, I don't want to derail things but I just have to know what you mean by this particular line. It's just so out there that I'm curious.
Sorcerers can wield long spears after all. There are reach weapons on the simple weapons list. Wizards can make their arcane bonds in reach weapons and gain proficiency, etc. I don't know why they would but they can.
It's the "as if it were a limb with a Strength score equal to her Intelligence score" part.
The sorcerer or wizard won't have 18 or 20 str. The witch will have high int and at low levels the BAB bonus difference won't matter. Base damage is low, but Int bonus to damage (or manuevers) is good.I think it's still a trap option. You're still a d6/low BAB class with no armor. Devoting any resources towards getting into melee, even reach melee, is risky.
Its not a trap option. There are a ton of offensive touch spells on the witch list, that witches are going to presumably cast on occassion, even when prehensil hair becomes a poor attack option, it becomes a great mechanism for delivering touch spells from behind the fighter.
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I beleive it is legal...
Winter Witch frozen caress hex + touch of fatigue + spectral hand finally gives the witch a medium range spell combo that does (cold) damage at 3rd level, and is a mild debuff.
I'm still feeling out the witch myself, learning her quirks. At low levels, the lack of range is startling (and yes, it can get repetitive).
The witch is not a path for the type of player who's been nursed on Two handed Fighters and Treantmonk God Wizards. They are a subtle and more challenging class to play but they will reward the skill and effort into playing their unique combination of strengths.
THIS!!!
I had a player that played a witch from levels 5 through 10. The only hex I could expect him to use consistently was fly (OR Charm but only against other PCs). He kept trying to play his witch as a wizard and they are just not built that way.
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I had a player that played a witch from levels 5 through 10. The only hex I could expect him to use consistently was fly (OR Charm but only against other PCs). He kept trying to play his witch as a wizard and they are just not built that way.
Which is a wonderful thing, as that was a fear I had when I first saw the witch class.
Classes should be completely distinct from each other, or they don't really need to exist outside of archetypes.
If the witch fills a niche, they did it right.
It's a trap option for those expecting easy and obvious routes to ULTIMATE GAME DOMINANCE. The witch is not a path for the type of player who's been nursed on Two handed Fighters and Treantmonk God Wizards. They are a subtle and more challenging class to play but they will reward the skill and effort into playing their unique combination of strengths.
Its not a trap option. There are a ton of offensive touch spells on the witch list, that witches are going to presumably cast on occassion, even when prehensil hair becomes a poor attack option, it becomes a great mechanism for delivering touch spells from behind the fighter.
Something that is not dominant is not the same thing as something that is a trap option. Prehensile hair functions exactly as advertised, and at low levels can be a descent attack and at mid to high levels can be used to deliver touch attacks more effectively then you could by hand. If someone takes it thinking they will be combat monsters, they need only to learn a couple touch spells (relatively easily done as a witch) to make use of the hex after they realize it wont work so well at higher levels.
My witch does generally open with slumber; it can be boring and repetitive -- certainly the GM is getting tired of it -- but it seems fairly stupid to do otherwise, unless I have a strong suspicion the target may have a good Will save and the serious danger isn't really immediate. If both those conditions apply, she may cast ill omen first, and/or misfortune, just to boost the chances of slumber working.
Otherwise, consider the effects of a failed save. Anything else she might do will only hamper or delay an opponent, sometimes for only a single round before another save is made. At her current level, a failed save vs. slumber will most likely eliminate an enemy for six rounds, while leaving him alive for questioning after the battle. It's useless against targets immune to mind-affecting effects and against anyone who's already saved against it today, but too good not to open with most of the time.
The problem with that is you may come to rely on it to the point where, when it doesn't work, you then have to sit and think "well, now what?" rather than have something ready to go. Our most recent fight was against a wizard with high SR; my witch failed to beat the SR with lightning bolt, ill omen, ray of sickening and touch of idiocy, and he saved against slumber and evil eye. He soaked up 80+ hit points of damage from our weapons before killing our paladin, neutralizing our ranger with hideous laughter and escaping. Better rolls to beat his SR would have helped a lot, so I can't blame her complete uselessness in that fight on simply being a witch.
The biggest problem I have run into being a GM to a witch is that much of the flavor of the class leans toward evil. This is not to say that you cannot play a good witch, just that it is a bit harder because a number of the options, especially the hexes, really are meant for evil characters.
I deliberately avoided "slumber" for the same reason I avoid most overpowered options. Because they tend to become the character's hammer and everything sort of looks like a nail.
Instead I prefer to figure out interesting ways to be effective with different tactics for different scenarios. I just get bored too easily, which is also why I tend not to play rage-pouncing barbarians or fully dedicated tricked out archers.
My witch is only level 3, and I am having an absolute friggin' blast with this character. I am having as much fun as I have ever had with any character. My witch is a gravewalker archetype and I play him as a sort of voodoo shaman with a drug problem. Given a choice he will always do the creepiest thing he can find that is also effective.
So far his in combat effectiveness has been comparable to a wizard of the same level. He uses fear, command, blind/deaf and summon swarm, all of which I think are quite effective on their own, but on a round-by-round basis it's ill omen, misfortune and cackle, which might be doing all kinds of awesome, but since it's hidden in the GM's dice rolls, it's hard to tell.
There have been encounters where he has done nothing visible beyond giving an enemy the stink-eye and then cackling in the background. To spice things up a little, I've boosted his UMD as high as I can and am using wands.
Sure he doesn't have much in the way of direct damage, and he debuffs much better than he buffs, but in terms of pure effectiveness so far, I'd say he's more capable than a wizard of the same level just because he can use his hexes all day long.
At level 11 I may have a completely different idea, but I sort of doubt it. I love the guy.
I love the flavor of the witch. I made (and hope to play soon) a guy who is terrified of his patron and the creepy spy (his familiar) that his patron sent to follow and torment him.
I find Slumber to be OP and dull, and Misfortune to be OP and dull. However there are still fun, flavorful, effective hexes and enough good spells for my PC to pull his weight in combat.
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There have been encounters where he has done nothing visible beyond giving an enemy the stink-eye and then cackling in the background. To spice things up a little, I've boosted his UMD as high as I can and am using wands.
Sure he doesn't have much in the way of direct damage, and he debuffs much better than he buffs, but in terms of pure effectiveness so far, I'd say he's more capable than a wizard of the same level just because he can use his hexes all day long.
At level 11 I may have a completely different idea, but I sort of doubt it. I love the guy.
Snipped just the relative parts. I'm looking at Ksenia as a charmer/buffer, took snowball (no comments on power please! It fits the winter witch theme) for damage, use a long spear, and have an owl familiar. I *know* she's going to be less than useful against undead. (enchantment and cold magic... wheeeeeeeee) so I'm also going the UMD route :-)
My wife is about to play her second witch (a winter witch for RoW AP)
Her first witch was in SS AP.
If I recall her first two Hexes were Flight (which at first meant she could swim better) and Tounges.... she loved the character so much, it's what's making her play this one. We havent actually built it yet (that happens tonight) And we will see what hex she chooses, but I'm thinking she might pick that one that lets her run around on ice.
I deliberately avoided "slumber" for the same reason I avoid most overpowered options. Because they tend to become the character's hammer and everything sort of looks like a nail.
Is your gravewalker witch your party's only arcane caster? My witch is the only arcane caster in our group. If she were not, I might have skipped it altogether, and would almost certainly have waited several levels before considering it.