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After reading the adventure background for the first module of Reign of Winter, I must say that I am more than a bit conflicted about the role Baba Yaga will actually play in this AP.
Although it is still months away, I think we can safely assume that the adventurers are going to free Baba Yaga and defeat Elvanna. While my sympathy for Elvanna is close to zero ( since bringing eternal winter to all of Golarion is her plan, after all ), my sympathy for Baba Yaga, after reading what she does to her daughters and their descendants, is even lower.
Assuming for now that the adventuring party will obtain the information laid out in the adventure background for The Snows of Summer, I think that there will be a lot of good-hearted adventurers who will chomp at the bit to challenge Baba Yaga, too, after defeating Elvanna. Will the writers provide a chance for that? I assume that, since Elvanna was able to best her mother, the high-level adventuring party will have a chance against Baba Yaga, too.
I'm pretty sure that this would involve the new mythic rules, so can we at least expect a statblock for Baba Yaga in the "Continueing the campaign" segment of the last module?
When I run this, I'm replacing Elvanna with Baba Yaga and Baba Yaga with some abstract good-aligned fey like the Spirit of Winter's End or something.
That way the PCs don't get tricked into releasing someone who conquered a nation and paved roads with the bones of the dead so they could put someone on the throne of that dictatorship so their soul would taste good when eaten. Which is something I just find depressing.
But unlike most APs, I'll actually have all six books of this before I even run it, so we'll see how it ends! Maybe an option is to huck the Yaga and take the role yourself.
I must say, I seriously dislike the possibility that the player characters will end up basically as minions for Baba Yaga, who are forced into doing her bidding and in the end she rides off into the sunset giving them the middle finger while munching on the souls of Elvanna and some of her younger descendants.
I think "So, you are basically Baba Yagas thugs, because elsewise your Geas activates and then the world ends" will not go over well with many people, unless there is an obvious chance to kill to the evil old crone at the end. Given how two players already announced their intention to play paired witchhunting Inquisitors, I really think I must actively request that players are given a decent chance to do so.
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Wow. Haven't gotten mine yet, but it sounds like whatever Baba Yaga is doing to her daughters is even worse than I thought.
Hopefully the last book will enable players to take a third option? Sure it'll earn them Baba Yaga's ire, but that's what continuing the campaign is for, right? ;)
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Mikaze, I assume you are reading this as a GM, otherwise you wouldn't be trawling through a thread with "spoilers" in the title. As such, what Baba Yaga has done for the last 1400 years is to take her daughter and their descendants with them after installing a new daughter on the throne and then eat their souls to refresh her own power. Kind of like Flemeth in Dragon Age.
And no, Gorby, I think the problem here is not that you have to ally with the lesser evil, but that this "lesser evil" then seemingly gets to give the party the middle finger and go along her merry way, dining on the souls of her progeny like they were fava beans with a nice chianti.
That's pretty much a slap in the face of players when, after slugging through an entire AP and getting to the high level they now have, they realize that in the end that they can't do anything to this mythic creature and they just have been her goons for a whole campaign.
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You ignore the fact that they are saving the world from eternal winter which likely means an expansion of Irrisen conditions to all of Golarion.
They're not running around and killing unborn babies at Baba Yaga's behest, they're searching for her because she knows how to stop what's going on and how to revert what her kids are doing.
And level 16 (usual for end of an AP) is high and all, but not high enough to challenge established killable threats in Golarion (Treerazer, Spawn of Tarrasque) let alone the turbo overdrive planar crone of doom. So it's a great starting point for an epic quest to take BY down but remember ... taking her out pretty much shatters the status quo of Irrisen. Are you ready to have a fallen nation on your hands? Or is it going to be an "we took out the bad guys but we have no idea how to handle the people they used to rule over" Iraq-style quagmire? You can't just fix nations by running around and shooting Beams of Good from your eyes.
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Yep, just reading, no plans to play.
So basically Baba Yaga's acting like a daemon then. Sounds like my suspicions about Weneschia's cleric status being an escape route might actually have something to it...
I'm guessing there's still going to be a way for players to cheat the devil out of his due. If not, there's plenty of ways to work a few in for groups that don't want that stuff to happen.
I'm sure there will be something to allow players to challenge Baba Yaga. After all...
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One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms. Installing Ameiko on the Jade Throne is also significant, but since almost all APs play out in the Inner Sea region, I fear we won't be feeling the effects of that for, erm, ever. Or at least Pathfinder 2.0: The New Inner Sea Guide.
Defeating Baba Yaga and freeing Irrisen from her yoke would finally change that trend of "status quo rules all".
I am not discounting "saving the world" at all, but it is not the point of my complaint from the OP. The point is that players will, by the description given in the AP summary at the end of the book, learn of what Baba Yaga does with her descendants and that many good-aligned ( or simply witch-opposed, see witchhunting Inquisitors ) characters will want to put a stop to that, because good aligned characters don't let super-evil witches have her happy ending. Especially if said happy ending includes the eating of souls en masse.
As such, I think it is not unreasonable to ask the developers to include options as how to the group can challenge Baba Yaga in the end. And I better ask now when the AP is just beginning, rather than later when it is too late to do anything about it.
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As such, I think it is not unreasonable to ask the developers to include options as how to the group can challenge Baba Yaga in the end. And I better ask now when the AP is just beginning, rather than later when it is too late to do anything about it.
No disrespect but I fear it may be to late for that at this point since I'm fairly certain that all the Ap volumes are all written up by this point.
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Hold on a sec if she does debouer there sould how are you supposedly able to fight several of the previous which quueens in the final book.
Also I think this kind of puts the end to Tashanna being Iggiwiv since if what is suggested happens she would be crone chow by now.
Those two bits, especially the latter, have me thinking there's gonna be more going on here, and more ways to handle it as players.
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One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms.
You're aware of the problems in publishing a setting that "setting-altering" campaigns pose?
Hold on a sec if she does debouer there sould how are you supposedly able to fight several of the previous which quueens in the final book.
Also I think this kind of puts the end to Tashanna being Iggiwiv since if what is suggested happens she would be crone chow by now.
I am assuming for now that the other daughters are going to be undead spellcasters with a special template.
No disrespect but I fear it may be to late for that at this point since I'm fairly certain that all the Ap volumes are all written up by this point.
As such, I think it is not unreasonable to ask the developers to include options as how to the group can challenge Baba Yaga in the end. And I better ask now when the AP is just beginning, rather than later when it is too late to do anything about it.
Unlikely. Prior APs had problems where writers didn't turn in their material on time and we got some jumbled messes ( Second Darkness comes to mind ).
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You're aware of the problems in publishing a setting that "setting-altering" campaigns pose?One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms.
As long as the following APs don't play out in the same region, there is no problem. Sooner or later a new edition of Pathfinder will come out and at this point a new campaign setting with an updated world will happen anyway. And since every AP takes 6 months and we still have many, many regions which we haven't visited before...
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As long as the following APs don't play out in the same region, there is no problem. Sooner or later a new edition of Pathfinder will come out and at this point a new campaign setting with an updated world will happen anyway. And since every AP takes 6 months and we still have many, many regions which we haven't visited before...You're aware of the problems in publishing a setting that "setting-altering" campaigns pose?One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms.
It's not just "further APs in that region".
It's campaign setting/player companion books that reference the area/NPCs.
It's *previous* material that referenced stuff that got changed.
It's fiction.
It's PFS.
It's the campaign setting book that's suddenly inaccurate.
It's the effect that realm-shaking events have on people - just ask 4E FR writers how fantastic did that turn out.
If you, say, publish an AP where Cheliax's government gets thrown out, you will suddenly have half of your customer base that will want that to be canon and all the material changed so that it's in synch, and the other half who will say "not in our Golarion" and will protest against any changes that enforce that AP as having taken place. Congratulations, you've just split your customer base, something that killed TSR.
Mikaze, I assume you are reading this as a GM, otherwise you wouldn't be trawling through a thread with "spoilers" in the title. As such, what Baba Yaga has done for the last 1400 years is to take her daughter and their descendants with them after installing a new daughter on the throne and then eat their souls to refresh her own power. Kind of like Flemeth in Dragon Age.Is this new info from the first episode? Or just an assumption?
Because I don't think it's been made clear before now what Baba Yaga was doing with the Queens she took. I could have missed it, of course.
Yes, it is made crystal clear in the adventure background section at the start of the first module.
It's not just "further APs in that region".
It's campaign setting/player companion books that reference the area/NPCs.
It's *previous* material that referenced stuff that got changed.
It's fiction.
It's PFS.
It's the campaign setting book that's suddenly inaccurate.
It's the effect that realm-shaking events have on people - just ask 4E FR writers how fantastic did that turn out.
If you, say, publish an AP where Cheliax's government gets thrown out, you will suddenly have half of your customer base that will want that to be canon and all the material changed so that it's in synch, and the other half who will say "not in our Golarion" and will protest against any changes that enforce that AP as having taken place. Congratulations, you've just split your customer base, something that killed TSR.
The level of hyperbole and inaccuracy from you is once again astounding.
The 4E Realms split the player base because they fundamentally changed the entire setting, not just one nation. Smaller changes which affected regions happened all the time with the novels and the player base just rolled with it.
If there is an AP where Cheliax government is overthrown, this will have zero effects on the existing sourcebooks, because it already is Paizos official policy to not acknowledge changes from the APs and have their setting be static ( although Jade Regent and Shattered Star broke with that stance a bit ).
Also, this is derailing the thread, so I'll stop giving you more chances to do so.
If there is an AP where Cheliax government is overthrown, this will have zero effects on the existing sourcebooks, because it already is Paizos official policy to not acknowledge changes from the APs and have their setting be static ( although Jade Regent and Shattered Star broke with that stance a bit ).
I suspect the official policy you mention is fairly closely tied to not having sweeping changed in the APs.
It would bother me far more to have APs end by radically changing the world and then not have that actually reflected in the setting. What's the point of sweeping changes if they don't actually change anything?
The current practice of keeping the results of APs relatively limited fits with the policy of a static setting.
As I said, I'd rather continue the discussion which is actually on-topic.
But for the record: I've repeatedly made the argument in the past that a completely static setting increasingly becomes stale and uninvolving over time. This is a point better discussed in a new thread, though.
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Keep in mind that only the first adventure of this AP has been released, and that the information presented there represents the past 1,400 years of history.
One thing PCs do, as adventurers, is change the status quo, almost by their very nature. The finale of the AP is not set in stone - Baba Yaga is not necessarily going to ride off into the sunset giving the PCs the middle finger. The PCs' actions during the AP will dictate how things shake out at the end.
But you'll have to wait five months to see how. :)
Thanks Rob, that was exactly what I was hoping to hear. Looking very much forward how this plays out! :)
Creative Director
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One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms. Installing Ameiko on the Jade Throne is also significant, but since almost all APs play out in the Inner Sea region, I fear we won't be feeling the effects of that for, erm, ever. Or at least Pathfinder 2.0: The New Inner Sea Guide.
I feel like I've said this a thousand times. 994 of them to you.
We do NOT want to say every AP is official canon as soon as they come out for a lot of reasons.
1) That creates a constantly shifting and changing landscape that makes tracking continuity for us increasingly difficult. Wizards of the Coast's frequent "resets" of the Forgotten Realms are in large part due to the fact that they took this tack with their adventures and fiction, and many comic book companies do the same. Eventually, as employees shift and knowledge base changes, the publishers of a world setting become less and less aware of their own contents, even as their customers become more and more aware of them, and that's probably the NUMBER ONE reason for things like the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles or stuff like that. It's a reset so that the employees who design the game, who likely do NOT have the knowledge of how the setting has grown and changed over the months, do not keep making continuity mistakes. By "locking" the timeline, we prevent Paizo from having this problem.
2) We don't know how any one party will resolve any one AP. If we made them all canon, we'd basically be saying "there's only one 'right' way to 'win' this AP." And that's simply not true.
3) If we publish our APs and then have the world assume they happen in the 6 months when they are published, then that starts to build a (false but compelling nonetheless) perception that you can ONLY play the APs in order. We want our customers buying adventure paths all the time. We want folks to feel that they can run any of the APs in any order. We do NOT WANT a new customer to start Pathfinder with Reign of Winter but then decide he can't play or run the adventure path until he plays the dozen or so previous ones. That creates a barrier to play that will slowly strangle the Adventure Path.
Those are the three main reasons.
Now, looking at the other side of things... your comment that we build our Adventure Paths to have no discernible effect on our setting is 100% incorrect. Let's look at several APs below (spoilered to prevent plot points from leaking out):
2) Curse of the Crimson Throne: We put Korvosa through the wringer. Its ruler dies, and then at the end of the AP, it's very likely its ruler dies again. The city suffers a huge plague, and as a result is entering some grim times.
3) Second Darkness: Before this AP, the assumption is that drow are mythological to most surface races. After the AP, that assumption is thrown out the window.
4) Kingmaker: Before this AP, the northeast swath of the River Kingdoms, the Stolen Land, is wilderness. After the AP, it's one of the largest of ALL the River Kingdoms. This is a great example as to why we don't "officialize" the Adventure Paths once they're written—because we have no way of knowing what the name of that new kingdom is in your game.
5) Jade Regent: The entire nation of Minkai gets a new leader. That's pretty major.
6) Serpent's Skull: Proof that Azalanti settlers did NOT ignore Garund is revealed.
7) Skull & Shackles: The Shackles get a new leader. See #5 above.
We've been publishing a "Continuing the Campaign" section after each AP ends in the last volume for a long time. These articles could also be called "How the world changes." Those articles are a great place to go to look at how things progress in a world where the events of the AP have occurred.
The right time to suddenly sweep all the previous APs up and assume their events have occurred (if there IS a right time) is at something like a SIGNIFICANT edition change. If, say, we were to do Pathfinder 2nd edition and it had ENORMOUS changes to the rules, that'd be a great time to advance Golarion's timeline by 20 years or whatever and then incorporate the now all obsolete 1st edition adventure paths into the world's history. IF we do a 2nd edition of Pathifnder, I strongly suspect it will NOT have enormous changes like this, but we still are likely to advance the world's timeline and talk about how the previous APs have now become history. If we do this, I'll want to also include a section that talks to GMs about how to play a previous edition's AP as a "historical adventure," and how to adjust their version of Golarion if things don't exactly work out in their game as they do on the printed page.
Whew.
Getting back to the thread at hand, as Rob's said above... you'll need to wait until the last adventure's published to find out exactly how the PCs can finish things off.
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I just think that it is great that they are doing something around Baba Yaga@
One of the things I really, really hate about Paizos approach to their APs so far is that player characters have almost no discernable effect on the setting. Sure, you stop some evildude from rising to power, but the aftereffects mostly don't look much different from how the setting was before the AP. I think the most effect players take on the setting is in Kingmaker, but even then they end up ruling just another insignificant realm in the River Kingdoms. Installing Ameiko on the Jade Throne is also significant, but since almost all APs play out in the Inner Sea region, I fear we won't be feeling the effects of that for, erm, ever. Or at least Pathfinder 2.0: The New Inner Sea Guide.
I feel like I've said this a thousand times. 994 of them to you.
We do NOT want to say every AP is official canon as soon as they come out for a lot of reasons.
1) That creates a constantly shifting and changing landscape that makes tracking continuity for us increasingly difficult. Wizards of the Coast's frequent "resets" of the Forgotten Realms are in large part due to the fact that they took this tack with their adventures and fiction, and many comic book companies do the same. Eventually, as employees shift and knowledge base changes, the publishers of a world setting become less and less aware of their own contents, even as their customers become more and more aware of them, and that's probably the NUMBER ONE reason for things like the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles or stuff like that. It's a reset so that the employees who design the game, who likely do NOT have the knowledge of how the setting has grown and changed over the months, do not keep making continuity mistakes. By "locking" the timeline, we prevent Paizo from having this problem.
2) We don't know how any one party will resolve any one AP. If we made them all canon, we'd basically be saying "there's only one 'right' way to 'win' this AP." And that's simply not true.
3) If we publish our APs and then have the world...
First off, many thanks for taking your time to write such an exhaustive answer to one of my usual gripes about how you guys run your setting ( I couldn't get you to write as detailed an answer to my "the current magic item crafting system is fundamentally unbalanced and should be fixed" gremlin, no? ^^ ).
I know it has worked out well so far for you and I recognize that this means you know what you are doing. Mainly, it comes down to a difference in taste. I prefer long evolving storylines and from there stem most of my perceptions on this issue. But just a few salient points I want to add, not to change your mind ( because, honestly, why should you if things are going successfully? ), but just to elucidate a bit on the issues you raised in your post.
- In 3.x, if a Forgotten Realms novel regionally changed things, those were elaborated on in the next sourcebook to come out and treat with that region. This worked out pretty well in my opinion to keep things flowing. Your system works differently, you bring out your regional sourcebooks at the same time a new AP launches, so the two settings are not really comparable in the same way.
- Not all comic book companies reset their setting. That's a DC thing, Marvel still is running the same main continuity since the 1960's.
- I think the only set of APs where a large regional shift would affect the perception of buyers are the ones which are set in the same region. And I think that you already created that situation by setting Shattered Star clearly after RotRL, CotCT, SD and JR. Other APs can, IMO, go hog wild, because you don't need to care so much how the region looks until Pathfinder 2.0. In fact, I think I have read between the lines that Wrath of the Righteous will shake up that particular region in a major way.
- I must admit that I hadn't perceived RotRL to be so important in the development of Varisia as a regional "power". But as you said yourself, many others seem to have missed that, too.
- Lastly, you yourself are saying that you'll recognize those changes with the next edition of Pathfinder, whenever it will come out. Sure, most likely not in a way which blows up the setting ( because that'd be counterproductive to writing further APs and certainly alienating to your existing customers ). But unless you want to only deal in generalities about certain parts of certain regions ( Korvose, Minkai, etc. ), you'll have to adopt an official continuity. Whch means a lot of people will have their home-campaigns somewhat invalidated.
But that's tough luck for them, to be honest. If I make my players Kings of Waterdeep in the FR and a novel comes out which of course hews to official canon, my players and I just have to deal with that, too. If the new campaign setting book in a few years only can say about Korvosa that it is a city which has an unspecified ruler, but nothing more... then I will be sad. Because then you'll have sacrificied the verisimilitude of your setting for appeasement of some players who will be, IMO, unreasonably upset about something which happens in every other fictional universe with a moving timeline. Events happen and, sooner or later, they are canonized in a certain fixed form.
Anyway, I have rambled on far too long and I want to repeat that I really, really appreciate you writing such a long answer to my gripe. I continue to disagree, but then again I am not running your company and your way is working.
erm why do some people have their copies and I don't?
I mean I realize mail is mail and all but shouldnt I have my downloadable copy by now?
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Lastly, you yourself are saying that you'll recognize those changes with the next edition of Pathfinder, whenever it will come out. Sure, most likely not in a way which blows up the setting ( because that'd be counterproductive to writing further APs and certainly alienating to your existing customers ). But unless you want to only deal in generalities about certain parts of certain regions ( Korvose, Minkai, etc. ), you'll have to adopt an official continuity. Whch means a lot of people will have their home-campaigns somewhat invalidated.
But that's tough luck for them, to be honest. If I make my players Kings of Waterdeep in the FR and a novel comes out which of course hews to official canon, my players and I just have to deal with that, too. If the new campaign setting book in a few years only can say about Korvosa that it is a city which has an unspecified ruler, but nothing more... then I will be sad. Because then you'll have sacrificied the verisimilitude of your setting for appeasement of some players who will be, IMO, unreasonably upset about something which happens in every other fictional universe with a moving timeline. Events happen and, sooner or later, they are canonized in a certain fixed form.
Why? Why do we "Just have to deal with it"? Would it really be that hard to adjust things to keep in mind the events of your campaign(s) for the revamp of Pathfinder setting? Maybe Paizo would consider a little section on each AP on ideas on how to keep in mind those events for the update?
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Just have to add my 3 cents:
I really hated all the changes that the forgotten realms went through due to some author writing a novel I never read.
I really value that Paizo limits "official changes".
Haven't seen the new path yet but chomping at the bits to read it based on what I have heard here. In dragon age I was conflicted what to do about Flemeth..
Baba Yaga..well not so conflicted but I doubt even 17th level characters would have a chance to take her down.
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Re: "After reading the adventure background for the first module of Reign of Winter, I must say that I am more than a bit conflicted about the role Baba Yaga will actually play in this AP."
I'm running the Serpent's Skull right now and there were a number of aspects I didn't like. So I changed them.
I'm planning on running the Reign of Winter next and if it looks like my players are keen on going after Baba Yaga then I'll modify that setting as needed (or not if not). I think that as the GM, taking overall 'control' of the adventure is the best way to get what you want.
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Why? Why do we "Just have to deal with it"? Would it really be that hard to adjust things to keep in mind the events of your campaign(s) for the revamp of Pathfinder setting? Maybe Paizo would consider a little section on each AP on ideas on how to keep in mind those events for the update?
You won't have to "just deal with it."
If we do decide to advance Golarion's timeline, and if we do decide to incorporate the adventures into its history (despite what Magnuskn implies, such an incorporation is NOT a done deal at that time—I was merely saying that's the best time to do something like that if we decide to do something like that), we'll include in the book some advice on how to adjust things if in your game things played out differently, as well as provide some advice on how to still play those older APs, perhaps as "historical adventures" or the like.
One thing's for sure, advancing the timeline will cause a lot of turmoil and distress. And that's pretty much the number one reason we don't do things the way Magnuskn would prefer and don't immediately adopt every publication into immediate canon.
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- In 3.x, if a Forgotten Realms novel regionally changed things, those were elaborated on in the next sourcebook to come out and treat with that region. This worked out pretty well in my opinion to keep things flowing. Your system works differently, you bring out your regional sourcebooks at the same time a new AP launches, so the two settings are not really comparable in the same way.
This was one of the things that most enraged me about playing in FR, particularly while DMing/administrating a NWN server set in Cormyr. As I explained in the "remove fiction from APs" thread, I constantly got caught between FR novel fans who expected the novel's information to be known, recognized, and considered canon, and myself and other staff members who had not read the novels, knew only the canon in the setting books (most of which predated said novels) and were immensely frustrated by people who expected something to be canon when the staff had no idea what they were talking about, and all the resulting canon/historical arguments.
It soured me greatly towards FR, turned me off towards setting-based fiction in general (Sorry Paizo Golarion fiction authors), and spurred my work towards establishing my own homebrew setting. So, at least in my own case, it did the exact opposite of "worked out pretty well" - it caused nothing but headaches and a growing distaste for the setting, its lore and history, and its characters.
I think, really, that nothing could be worse for Paizo than attempting to integrate novel information into existing canon. And I'm really, really glad, on behalf of those who play in Golarion, that they don't. APs I see as no different - an adventure I haven't read, haven't yet played or GMed, and am unaware of the ramifications and side-effects of being suddenly imported into the canon would make my head spin.
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I agree with several that the advancing chronology of Forgotten Realms to match every novel released, even the terrible ones, eventually spoiled the setting for me. At one point I decided if I ran another FR game I would go back to the 1e box (at least for the fluff portion) and just ignore all the subsequent, frustrating changes. I haven't followed Greenwood's 5e FR development, but I wouldn't be surprised if it involved some sort of reset to offload decades worth of bloat and bad decisions. Even if only as one of a slew of options.
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. . . turned me off towards setting-based fiction in general (Sorry Paizo Golarion fiction authors) . . .
I think, really, that nothing could be worse for Paizo than attempting to integrate novel information into existing canon. And I'm really, really glad, on behalf of those who play in Golarion, that they don't. APs I see as no different - an adventure I haven't read, haven't yet played or GMed, and am unaware of the ramifications and side-effects of being suddenly imported into the canon would make my head spin.
I read the following somewhere and thought it applicable here . . .
Sorry you feel that way. Not sorry enough to stop liking it though =D
Here's the best part though: Unlike Forgotten Realms, that did handle their progressive over-arching story line incredibly poorly, Paizo has done exactly the opposite in their handling of setting-based fiction. While FR altered their setting irrevocably in a way that made things all the more complicated for those who played in that setting through the canonizing of everything, Paizo could actually canonize every PF Tales book they've published without altering a single thing from their RPG setting books. This is because Paizo was smart about it and provide you with amazing characters/events that are compelling, but not Golarion-shattering. Their books help to flesh out the regions in which they're set, and give you some incredibly awesome NPCs to play with (I've already started work on how I'm going to fit in a guest appearance or two of Jeggare and Radovan from Gross' novels into my Shattered Star campaign because I love both those characters), but when the stories are over, the status quo changes very, very little, if at all. They're just stories of people in Golarion doing what they do.
It's a brilliant way to handle the fiction line, and I love it much! And that doesn't even mention how much I greatly appreciate the fantastic authors they bring in to tell these stories. Paizo does things the right way. They give you all these different avenues by which you can better grasp the workings of their world, but, in the end, they let you--the GM and your gaming group--decide how Golarion changes in your campaigns. They don't force any of it down your throat. Frankly, they got it right. ;)
So, as does that wonderful individual I quoted above, I'm terribly sorry you feel the way you do, and I honestly feel that you're missing out on some wonderful reading material (if for nothing else than to just get more culturally specific information about different regions in Golarion), but I'm not going to tell you what to enjoy or not enjoy . . .
I am going to respectfully request that you not try to eliminate the fiction, however. It very much has a gaming purpose, and I do so enjoy it!
Well said, Sub-Creator. :-)
Why? Why do we "Just have to deal with it"? Would it really be that hard to adjust things to keep in mind the events of your campaign(s) for the revamp of Pathfinder setting? Maybe Paizo would consider a little section on each AP on ideas on how to keep in mind those events for the update?You won't have to "just deal with it."
If we do decide to advance Golarion's timeline, and if we do decide to incorporate the adventures into its history (despite what Magnuskn implies, such an incorporation is NOT a done deal at that time—I was merely saying that's the best time to do something like that if we decide to do something like that), we'll include in the book some advice on how to adjust things if in your game things played out differently, as well as provide some advice on how to still play those older APs, perhaps as "historical adventures" or the like.
One thing's for sure, advancing the timeline will cause a lot of turmoil and distress. And that's pretty much the number one reason we don't do things the way Magnuskn would prefer and don't immediately adopt every publication into immediate canon.
And before I get crucified by a mob of loyal Paizo fanboys fans for daring to think against the conventional wisdom, I'd like to add that I pointed out several times in my last post that things are working out so far and I was talking there specifically about the next campaign setting when Pathfinder 2.0 comes around. Which I think is still half a decade away at least.
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And before I get crucified by a mob of loyal Paizo fanboys fans . . .
If you get crucified (and I very much doubt that such would happen, as we're very much a more humanistic society these days that doesn't abide in capital punishment), it would likely be for the use of that rather derogatory noun at the tail end of the quoted line above . . . a noun that, not surprisingly, always seems to end up in use when people tend to disagree with someone's point of view on something.
I'll give you credit though and note that you did put "fans" immediately after, which indicates that you probably did have second thoughts about using said noun but simply forgot to take it out before posting.
C'mon, man. Let's not resort to name-calling here.
And before I get crucified by a mob of loyal Paizo fanboys fans . . .If you get crucified (and I very much doubt that such would happen, as we're very much a more humanistic society these days that doesn't abide in capital punishment), it would likely be for the use of that rather derogatory noun at the tail end of the quoted line above . . . a noun that, not surprisingly, always seems to end up in use when people tend to disagree with someone's point of view on something.
I'll give you credit though and note that you did put "fans" immediately after, which indicates that you probably did have second thoughts about using said noun but simply forgot to take it out before posting.
C'mon, man. Let's not resort to name-calling here.
Yeah, that is rather embarassing. In my defense, I wrote that post just after getting out of bed and having had a short night. I just noticed my faux pas two hours later, when it was already too late to properly edit it out. I make no excuses, I sometimes write rather provocatively, but normally think better of it before hitting the post button and then redact my posts to provide better argumentation, instead of inflammatory statements.
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erm why do some people have their copies and I don't?
I mean I realize mail is mail and all but shouldnt I have my downloadable copy by now?
Sending out all of the subscription stuff takes several days, and you don't get access to the pdf until your copy is shipped.
You're not alone - my copy is still pending too :(
Were in the AP did it say the fate of Baba Yaga's children was to be "soul food" for Baba Yaga? page?
So, as does that wonderful individual I quoted above, I'm terribly sorry you feel the way you do, and I honestly feel that you're missing out on some wonderful reading material (if for nothing else than to just get more culturally specific information about different regions in Golarion), but I'm not going to tell you what to enjoy or not enjoy . . .
Heh, well played.
It's not a major issue for me, as I've stated, because I don't play in Golarion. But I understand why people would be frustrated with it, because of my issues with FR, and my utter desire to not see Paizo go down that road, for their sakes if not mine. I consider it a bad business decision on FR/WotC's part, and I'm glad to see Paizo not following in that particular road.
I am going to respectfully request that you not try to eliminate the fiction, however. It very much has a gaming purpose, and I do so enjoy it!
I'm afraid I can't do that, not when the possibility of something replacing it that I would find useful has been floated. We're going to have to be on opposite sides on this one, as I've stated several times in that thread - and I'll leave any further conversation on that subject to the proper location ;)
Were in the AP did it say the fate of Baba Yaga's children was to be "soul food" for Baba Yaga? page?
It's in the Adventure Background on Pg. 7 of 'Snows of Summer'.
Although, technically, given Golarion's Cosmology regarding souls & Undead it might be fairer to say that she consumes their 'life essence', rather than their souls, considering that she then goes on to use what's left to create some kind of Undead Guardians for the deeper recesses of her Hut.
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Adventure Background, pg 7, second paragraph.
Here's something I noticed though--In order to free Baba Yaga in the final book, the book explicitly says that the PCs have to kill Queen Elvanna (Baba Yaga's imprisonment is tied to Elvanna's life, Campaign Outline, pg 91, last paragraph).
Doesn't that mean she won't have a daughter to snack on at the appointed feeding time? That's bound to have some repercussions.