Goblin Squad Member
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2. The new system UTTERLY & COMPLETELY terminates any incentive whatsoever for an alt.
If indeed this is the case (and I am not all convinced that this is the case), this is bad for the design, because? Sounds like a great feature to me.
This system gives us vanilla clones at 1st level
I am just scratching my head over this. I assume you are speaking mechanically, but even then there will be racial differences, alliance differences, regional differences. But let's put that aside, let's say we do actually start out all mechanically the same, within minutes after logging in, characters will become differentiated based on their actual actions in-game. This sounds like a feature to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it would be simpler to have the account earn a set amount of XP per subscription (doubled for destiny twin accounts) which the player can spend on their characters, split as they see fit.There needs to be a real limit on the amount of XP that can be spent on a single character in a given time frame.
Adam has a single character, and earns 2,400 XP per day on his account.
Bob has Destiny's Twin, so he earns 4,800 XP per day on his account.
Suddenly, Bob can "level" his main twice as fast as Adam can. That's a very bad situation.
XP pool should be per character.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for the complaint someone made earlier about creating a character and leaving for a month, then coming back to be 3rd level, you still have to perform the actions required to get the merit badges for advancement, so it's not like you can just jump up because you played an alt for a while. It just means that action, rather than time, is the throttle on your advancement.
(emphasis mine)
It is really an elegant solution. I think the end result will be a tighter community, since everyone will be able to contribute pretty much at any "level."
Ive got mixed feelings about the changes to skill training in the latest blog.
2. Passive XP gain
Ive got extremely mixed feelings about the passive xp gain. Im a new player to EVE and it took me a while to figure out where i wanted to go in my training and even longer till I did my first skill remap. It was confusing at first (and still catches me by surprise on occasion), but I was invested in the training. As skills opened up and got completed I felt that my character was growing even if I didnt change a single piece of equipment or change a single tactic. This was because I was paying attention to my skill training and the associated queue. Removing that and saying 'Log off for a while at 1st level, now come back and spend all your points. BAM! Youre a 3/4/5 level fighter' is counter to the feeling of organic growth and development that forms a huge part of roleplaying (IMHO). I understand that there will be some in-game requirements as well as the xp, but unless those requirements take significant time it amounts to the same thing. I would prefer that there be some planning ahead of time rather than just sitting back and spending a huge bunch of points. I feel that the reason it works is because no skill is useless and every skill is eventually trainable. So while you may have lost a little time, its not something that significantly hinders your character or progression.
Suggestion Assuming that the EVE style is not desired (which could mesh well with the trainer IMO), then perhaps a pool cap on the passive xp? If you...
As I see it, the XP gain in PFO is not an exact translation of training skills in EVE. Yes, in EVE, there was incentive to plan ahead and monitor your training queue to make sure you're always training. But In PFO, you're going to require 'achievements/badges' to train on top of the XP requirement. So you'll still need to plan those out. If training a skill requires you kill 100 rats, you'll have to plan on having that completed by the time you have the XP for training. Will those requirements take significant time? I'm fairly certain the time they take will be relative to the depth of the training. Your first thing you train will probably take 5-10minutes to earn the badge. 2 years in to a particular path, you'll likely have to spend considerable time earning the requisite badge.
@ the alt discussion:
I can see why people want alts. Personally, in a game like EVE or PFO, I prefer not to have them. Yes you can have 2 'lvl 20' characters in 2.5 years as opposed to 5 years. But the time to train down those paths is grossly exponential, not liner. So early on, my 1 character could still have significant progress into two trees of development - completely negating the desire for alts. The benefit alts have in this case is a very long term one, and is dependent of me having the same goals/views 2 years into the game that I had back when I first started playing (GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD luck with that!)
I also like the idea that I as a player don't have access to everything. Everything to do in the game is larger than myself. That I depend on people who specialize in things that I don't. Having an alt that keeps pace with players who devote their sole character to a specific path cheapens the game for me. It's a way for players to be a jack of all trades, master of all - which to me defeats the purpose of even having lengthy and diverse development paths. I HATE the idea that someone will play one character, and while playing; hit a 'road block', and overcome it by simply switching to their alt. How many wandering merchants are going to have assassin alts to take vengeance on someone playing an outlaw? Ruins the point of the game for me. I wish there was a way to prevent Alt2 from coming to the rescue of Alt1 - something like switching characters on a 1-2 hour cool down. Make storage/money account wide to solve the "what if I just need to send money to my alt?" issue - assuming that's a legitimate concern, considering it's another example of Alt2 coming to the rescue of Alt1
In a game where I'm not restricted in development (alignment can always change, so don't argue that. And roleplaying is self-imposed so don't argue that either), having alts do tasks that your 'main' is completely capable of doing itself is out of the question for me. I see it as a holdover from the themepark era, which doesn't serve me any purpose in PFO.
I "get" alts. In WoW, I had max level toons for DPS, Healing, and Tanking. I had max levels in EVERY profession - because the scope of that game was small. It only took a few weeks to max out any one of those things, and with not much else to do; why not? Just doesn't apply in this game to me.
That is my take from the 'no alt' camp. I recognize MANY do not share that same view and will play multiple characters regardless. :cheers:
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think what Avari3 is saying is that if you have a single account / no "destiny's twin" then you might theoretically set up two characters and split the 'skill training time' / 'XP earning time' equally between them. When stats impacted the amount of time needed to train a skill you could thus have two characters with different stats/specialties each advancing half as fast as a single character with the same stats/specialty would. However, with the system as now described you could also just split your XP between the two different specialties on one character to have that single character advance at half speed in each.
Technically, you could still have the two alts each advancing at half speed... the complaint is apparently that they have now added the ability to do the same thing on a single character. Of course this makes the loud complaints about money gouging completely false... but it is the only interpretation of what he has been saying which I can make any kind of sense of.
Yes, that is where i was going with it.
The "broke" MMO'er will probably stay away from a game that you need to spend $15/mo. on.
The Middle Class MMo'er will spend $15/mo. Maybe take a few mos. off, maybe spend $25-30 in stints(work on that alt). That's where I fall, and as a crowdforger i am defending my interests as i should.
The "rich" gamer spends $30+ every month and gets everything they want with one system or the other.
But i have broken down the math now and it should work out fine. For your alt to have any synergy with your main, it has to e at about 60% power level of the main. The equalizer here will be the power curve. Leveling your alt for 3 months gets it into the "adventuring power level", so it will be useful, even if you only level it 30% of the time. The harsh leveling stagnation makes Alt's viable after all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think it is so much actual differences coming out of character generation as it is the illusion of such. If you think back to AD&D 1st edition the difference between a 1st level Paladin, Ranger, and Fighter was virtually nil. One has a two point higher strength? Ok, they're going to do slightly more damage overall, but it was really a very small difference in the grand scheme of things.
That has obviously become less true as the game progressed, with Pathfinder giving every class multiple unique features right out of the gate. However, even back in 1st edition the appearance of differentiation existed based on class and stat choices.
I agree that, as described thus far, PFO online will allow players to quickly differentiate themselves in game... but it wouldn't hurt to have more apparent differentiation baked into character generation.
For example, the 'everyone starts as a 1st level Commoner' bit. If the 'class' has little or no impact until you actually start developing skills for it then why NOT allow people to pick their starting class? Suddenly you've got 'paladins' and 'wizards' and 'experts' all over the place. Their abilities and game play may be identical to those 'commoners', but now they are all 'different'. Have each class give you a point or two in related ability scores or one 'free' class skill of your choice and you've got all kinds of starting variation with virtually no impact on the game. Basically, the differentiation each character might have achieved in their first few minutes of playing (or however long it took to find a trainer) is instead 'baked in' at character generation time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having alts passively gaining XP while they are not being played is not going to matter. you have to earn the merit badges BY PLAYING to get the skills. It should be balanced fairly so that the time it takes to get the merit badges is somewhat comparable to some part of the XP training time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@All
For those that are concerned about monopolies on training or having a very difficult time finding a training facility, I think that would only come to be if there were a very small number of settlements or pretty much all settlements came to be part of 3-4 massive insular alliance blocs. If that happens the game has a MUCH more fundemental problem then just the training facility issue. So I think GW will work to scale the map to the player population so that there is always space for new independant settlements and maybe even put some mechanics in place to make it difficult to manage huge kingdoms. At worst I expect people may have to travel/search around a bit for the training facilities they want and be prepaired to pay some coin. For those "nomad" companies not tied to a settlement...likely you'll just be paying higher training costs then others... but that's the life you've chosen for yourselves, and it does come with it's own set of advantages.
The starting stat thing, I really enjoy the process of creating characters as it's both a big part of the gameplay for me and also helps to define who the character is from a RP persepective. So all stat's starting equal and starting without a class or skills is kinda a bummer for me personaly and I understand where other folks who share that sentiment are coming from. However, I understand why GW chose to go this way...it makes perfect sense to do it this way in order to address the design goals they have. So I'm not personaly complaining or advocating that they switch it around... just stating my own personal preference.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The answer to people wanting starting classes is to start everyone at "level 2."
In character creation you can pick one of the "level 2" kits which represent about a day of XP worth of skills for that class and the slight ability point bump you get in a day. You could even give them slightly different starting equipment and a name title.
If there are 11 adventuring classes, I could see 15 starting kits... one kit for each class, 1 kit for commoner/expert/artistocrat and then one "blank kit" where you start with a day of unspent XP, no starting equipment but a small amount of starting gold to go in any direction you want.
Then to help with the power creep, when open enrollment comes around, bump up the starting kits to "level 3" starting kits...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I remember Ryan saying he wanted to include mechanics to make it impractical for a Kingdom to grow above a certain size. I'll see if I can dig it up.
I think the Training Time as a limited resource is fantastic, and I would expect GW will probably try to balance it in such a way that there is always a little bit of tension in it at least at some level - where it's a challenge to find appropriate high-level training.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont mind training time being limited by tier (quality), nor do I mind it being limited by cost. But I do take some issue with the limited "instructor" thing.
So I need very high tier LG training. I find a settlement with it that has it that is willing to sell it to me (and I have no other options). So this is the only place I can go, and I am willing to spend the coin. But then...... I have to spend 2 weeks trying and failing to get access to trainers because of the limited "instructors". Maybe I dont have a good idea of how this will work out or I am misunderstanding it, or its not nearly as bad as I imagine.
All I know is there are already so many prereqs for training, that if I finally find a place that has the skill training high enough tier, and they are willing to sell it to me, why should I have to wait on some kind of bread line for it. This is a money issue for the settlement too, because they could charge me a lot but not get my money, because I get sick of it and move on. Im a paying customer, if I have the prereqs I should be able to walk in pay the money and get my training. Boom! 1-2 min transaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I dont mind training time being limited by tier (quality), nor do I mind it being limited by cost. But I do take some issue with the limited "instructor" thing.
So I need very high tier LG training. I find a settlement with it that has it that is willing to sell it to me (and I have no other options). So this is the only place I can go, and I am willing to spend the coin. But then...... I have to spend 2 weeks trying and failing to get access to trainers because of the limited "instructors". Maybe I dont have a good idea of how this will work out or I am misunderstanding it, or its not nearly as bad as I imagine.
All I know is there are already so many prereqs for training, that if I finally find a place that has the skill training high enough tier, and they are willing to sell it to me, why should I have to wait on some kind of bread line for it. This is a money issue for the settlement too, because they could charge me a lot but not get my money, because I get sick of it and move on. Im a paying customer, if I have the prereqs I should be able to walk in pay the money and get my training. Boom! 1-2 min transaction.
By making training an economic good--by assigning it to scarcity--GW has made it tradable, contested, allocated, and an object of production. The complexity level of meaningful human interactions increases, because something very fundamental is now a good.
You're not going to pay (or at least not primarily pay) for training with in-game coin. You're going to have to pay for it through social work--how you count socially, will have the greatest impact on your access to tr4aining.
That's a good thing. Adding complexity to the game, and giving us interesting social problems to solve, is a good thing. It is within your ability to decide to think about creative ways of solving this interesting problem, rather than presuming failure and then imagining attendant frustration.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think this is what you were looking for Nih
It is intended to be a mechanic which scales the costs of running a Player Nation such that the first couple of Settlements don't impose much in the way of costs, but after that the cost to add another Settlement gets rapidly more expensive to the point where there's effectively a hard cap due to the inability to fund more expansion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Dakcenturi, yep, that's the one I was thinking of.
Here's the link: Goblinworks Blog: RESPECT: Find Out What It Means to Me!.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Mbando
Well as I said, I dont have all the details, and I can be a bit pessimistic at times (bread lines lol). So I am definately willing to take a wait, see and try approach.
As for it creating player interaction and complexity, I agree this can be a good thing. But also remember there is a such thing as too much of a good thing. In other words if its truly interesting and fun in its complexity then great, If its overly complex for the sake for being complex then thats not fun or interesting, thats annoying.
I am invested in this game because of the sandbox play and social interaction to be sure! But I also love a classless system and love skill/ability progression. I dont really want to be blocked from this, and I have never played a game that limited character growth in such a way. Its very foriegn.
I have played class based games which limit you to 1 class, but they never limited your potential growth in that class. I have played games where cost is an issue with character growth, but honestly if you are playing the game right affording that cost has never been a problem. The only severe limit on character growth I have ever had in MMOs is being limited by a gear progression in games where gear means everything (not the same thing though reallly as its related to add on growth after max level).
I do see one issue though based on your reply. If there is too much friendly interaction for the sake of training, then wont that just make everybody firends...... AKA: where is the PvP wars. There has to be some large amount of self sufficiency IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually it reduces the process of character creation down to "what style of hair will match my chainmail bikini".
Nah, there will be shops where you can change your hairstyle (or bikini) after creation.
There is a mentality that "character creation" is a one-time process that happens before the game starts. GW is suggesting the charcater is created during the game. Flavour from day one, but based on the choices and actions in game on day one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Mbando
I do see one issue though based on your reply. If there is too much friendly interaction for the sake of training, then wont that just make everybody firends...... AKA: where is the PvP wars. There has to be some large amount of self sufficiency IMO.
Scarcity means both cooperation and competition, and that isn't limited to trainers--it means resources, territory, physical access, etc. One way to get access to things you want is to cooperate in reciprocal ways. Another way to get scarce things is to use force, or the credible threat of force. We'll see lines of competition, up to all out war, and lines of cooperation, just like in all human endeavors in political economy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is too much friendly interaction for the sake of training, then wont that just make everybody firends...... AKA: where is the PvP wars. There has to be some large amount of self sufficiency IMO.
If I'm running a Lawful Evil Settlement with high-level access to fairly rare training facilities, I think I'm going to have a pretty strong incentive to take out other Settlements that offer that same training so I can maximize my profits when I sell it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather start with all stats at 10 (plus racial modifiers) and earn my way to a complete build just as I would rather start my character at neutral 0.0 and work my way into my natural alignment whatever that turns out to be.
I guess that means I'll discover which 'class' my primary will be as he develops.
However that -2 str for an elf is now intimidating.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's a fine line to walk...and implimentation will matter a great deal.
If people litteraly have to camp out for days on end doing nothing but waiting for a training slot to open so that they can advance....then that's more likely to result in players quitting out of boredom and frustration then trying to figure out inventive solutions. Ultimately it's a game not a simulation and above all a game has to be fun for the players. There are alot of things in life that are dull, tedious or unpleasant that need to be done in order for society to work...but a game's primary mission is entertainment so there is a fairly low tolerance for the dull, tedious and unpleasant in them.
I think it's fair to expect some tension on higher level training but GW is going to have to impliment in such a manner that doesn't result in excessive player boredom or frustration.
I expect at the very least there will be some Appointment or Queue system so that the player doesn't has to sit around waiting for a training slot to open but rather knows when thier opportunity to train will come up.
I also wouldn't expect them to make it so difficult to obtain said facilities that there aren't at least a few options of settlements out there who have them (when the game has been rolling for awhile at least)... nor too many stumbling-block training requirements where you can't advance SOMETHING that's usefull to your path...while you are waiting for the optimal ability that you really want to come availble.
So I do think they are going to aim for a delicate balance of it being a valueable commodity but not making it such a herculean task that players feel like they are bashing their heads against a wall. If they don't, it's really going to kill thier potential player population.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... just as I would rather start my character at neutral 0.0...Has it occurred to you that this might be so attractive to you precisely because your intent is to be Neutral?
Unlikely I would be one to have missed that, and yes I am certainly biased. It is the only believable option in my view. However, despite my native preference, I do esteem the Paladin and believe that only those who earn their LG alignment should be afforded the honor of being one.
I've been arguing for everyone starting at 0,0 since day one, so it should have come as no surprise to anyone who has been reading me.
I would also point out that Ryan believed it would be a very difficult balancing act to remain true neutral for long.
I think the way I will attempt to achieve my Druid honor will be to pursue a fighter role limiting myself to non-metal light and medium armor and see whether there is a way for me to maintain true neutrality until I can get access to the Druid line. I might not be able to do it, but the ability to artificially restrict advancing into the Good column will help greatly I suspect.
I'm unconvinced as yet we really should encourage tht artificial restriction from advancing into Good.
Did anyone see whether we would be able to similarly restrict our advance into the Lawful row?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it's a fine line to walk...and implimentation will matter a great deal.
If people litteraly have to camp out for days on end doing nothing but waiting for a training slot to open so that they can advance....then that's more likely to result in players quitting out of boredom and frustration then trying to figure out inventive solutions. Ultimately it's a game not a simulation and above all a game has to be fun for the players. There are alot of things in life that are dull, tedious or unpleasant that need to be done in order for society to work...but a game's primary mission is entertainment so there is a fairly low tolerance for the dull, tedious and unpleasant in them...
...So I do think they are going to aim for a delicate balance of it being a valueable commodity but not making it such a herculean task that players feel like they are bashing their heads against a wall. If they don't, it's really going to kill thier potential player population.
I think that's broadly true. If killing 10 goblins is a merit badge requirement, and 1 goblin a day spawns per hex, it could be pretty darn frustrating. Reasonably confident that GW will have the sense to balance & play-test.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... just as I would rather start my character at neutral 0.0...Has it occurred to you that this might be so attractive to you precisely because your intent is to be Neutral?
It would also be pretty easy to circumvent given currently proposed mechanics.
A player wanting LG could just park his character AFK in some safe nook in one of the starting cities until enough time had elapsed that he climbed up both axes before starting playing.
A player wanting CE could just kill an Alt or bot commiting some petty crime until he got CE.
Etc.
They'd probably have to make some other modifiocaions to the Alignment system to make it not so easy to exploit if they really wanted to give that route some meaning.
Also it would kinda play havoc with the Alignment restrictions on CC and training for certain Alignment based classes (You wouldn't be able to start out as Level 1 Paladins, Monks, Good or Evil Clerics, Assasins, etc). Would probably ripple through with alot of changes required to the existing New Player Experience. Although it certainly is an interesting way that a game could choose to go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I thought GrumpyMel was talking about the training facilities and the effect of scarce training slots, wasn't he?Yes he was. What he pointed out about training (that scarcity needs to be balanced) is broadly true in the whole game.
Agreed, and I expect GW will do a good job of it....even if they need to do some tweaking to get it right.
The more salient point is that I think training slots should probably impliment some sort of Queue or Appointment system. That would at least mitigate some of the concerns about boredom and having to be "camped out" in some sort of "bread-line" someplace for a slot to open.
You let the player know when he can expect the slot to be availble. He can go off and do something else fun and interesting for awhile and then come back when the slot looks like it will be free. If he's not there at the time, he gets skipped. If the wait looks too long or he is too impatient for that slot...he can try to find someplace else that has it on offer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Did anyone see whether we would be able to similarly restrict our advance into the Lawful row?
Yes.
From Goblinworks Blog: I Shot a Man in Reno Just To Watch Him Die
To maintain a Chaotic alignment, the character must also be a criminal?The positive drift is in there to provide a way for people to recover over time if they want to be Lawful and/or Good. It'll probably be really slow, but still useful for those who are filled with regret at their choices and want to be LG again. And there will be an option to say "Nope, I'm happy where I am, thanks, you can keep your points" for people that want to stay Chaotic, Evil, or some shade of Neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why would you play an alt? Your main gains the skills at the same rate and probably has already gained a few points in the ability score. There is no incentive to play an alt except alignment/reputation. Bad, Bad, bad trend to promote.
Different race, different gender, different look, different name, different personality, etc. I guess there is no point to having multiple characters if the only thing you care about are their starting and ending stats, but if you only look at things from that perspective, I doubt you'll be playing long enough for it to matter.
They did say different races get their differing stat adjustments, and humans and half-humans get to pick where that goes.
One would play an alt the same reason one would bother joining the game later on. They talk about that in the blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it would be simpler to have the account earn a set amount of XP per subscription (doubled for destiny twin accounts) which the player can spend on their characters, split as they see fit.There needs to be a real limit on the amount of XP that can be spent on a single character in a given time frame.
Adam has a single character, and earns 2,400 XP per day on his account.
Bob has Destiny's Twin, so he earns 4,800 XP per day on his account.
Suddenly, Bob can "level" his main twice as fast as Adam can. That's a very bad situation.
I don't think you intentionally quote-mined that line, but here it is with its context restored and emphasized:
Maybe it would be simpler to have the account earn a set amount of XP per subscription (doubled for destiny twin accounts) which the player can spend on their characters, split as they see fit. , but you could divide it among 3 or more if you wanted.
Sorry to bug y'all, but could somebody explain to me what people mean by this "Destiny's Twin" thing? I don't see it on the blog anywhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon I am a little confused by your post regarding those of us with Destiny's Twin. Each of them can gain, based upon the example in the Blog, 72,000 xp per month, but I could not find anyplace where it, or any Dev post, that said the total would be accessible by only one character. Main character only has 72,000 xp, period, as does the Twin. No cross-sharing of xp. Did I miss a post or misread the Blog?
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Goblin Squad Member
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You wouldn't be able to start out as Level 1 Paladins, Monks, Good or Evil Clerics, Assasins, etc...From what we know so far, you won't be able to start out as Level 1 anything. You won't learn Fighter 1 (or any other Role) until you've completed all of the pre-reqs for it.
What I meant was that there are probably some Alignment restrictions on some of the Feats those paths would need to learn. Additionaly the last blog indicated that it would be fairly quick to earn your first level or so.
My impression from Being was that he wanted some pretty significant effort on the part of the Player to earn thier Aligments...meaning that alot of core classes wouldn't be availble for players to pursue as part of the New Player Experience....they'd be more like Prestiege classes, I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry to bug y'all, but could somebody explain to me what people mean by this "Destiny's Twin" thing?
Destiny's Twin is a perk given to the kickstarter backers. What it means is that as long as your first character is receiving skill time, your second will also receive it at no additional cost.
Sorry to bug y'all, but could somebody explain to me what people mean by this "Destiny's Twin" thing?Destiny's Twin is a perk given to the kickstarter backers. What it means is that as long as your first character is receiving skill time, your second will also receive it at no additional cost.
Oh, okay. Guess it makes sense that I ain't heard of it, then. Thanks. :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry to bug y'all, but could somebody explain to me what people mean by this "Destiny's Twin" thing? I don't see it on the blog anywhere.
From kickstarter:
Adventurer Reward Bonus - Destiny's Twin:
As a special feature of Adventurer accounts, you'll be able to have two characters training skills at the same time! While one character is learning how to master the martial arts and gain renown as a warrior, your other character can be learning the intricacies of the crafting system and earning a name as an industrial powerhouse! As long as your primary character is earning skill points, so will its counterpart - FOREVER! The value of this benefit could easily reach hundreds of dollars if you became a long-term player of Pathfinder Online. (You will not be able to log in and play both of these characters at the same time)
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Goblin Squad Member
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You wouldn't be able to start out as Level 1 Paladins, Monks, Good or Evil Clerics, Assasins, etc...From what we know so far, you won't be able to start out as Level 1 anything. You won't learn Fighter 1 (or any other Role) until you've completed all of the pre-reqs for it....
My impression from Being was that he wanted some pretty significant effort on the part of the Player to earn thier Aligments...meaning that alot of core classes wouldn't be availble for players to pursue as part of the New Player Experience....they'd be more like Prestiege classes, I guess.
Fair enough, but I wouldn't go that far. It will be in a player's interest to realize what it means for a character to be played Lawful and Good, to earn their LG alignment so they knew what it took to get there.
True, in PnP the player gets to pick Paladin if they want and gets aura of good right off the bat but they have a GM right there guiding them so they hopefully don't immediately lose their LG alignment and thus their Paladin benefits.
There won't be that guiding GM present in this game so if the player has to work a bit to achieve LG alignment then Paladin skills should open to them as soon as they do gain LG, and maybe something earned will be something valued. Maybe they will be careful to not lose what they took the trouble to earn.
How hard it is to achieve LG from 0,0? No idea. But my recommendation is that it should be noticable, and even if it is easy I hope there is something significant about it that leaves an impression on the Paladin that his or her perseverance is worth the trouble, even if it means a visitation by Iomedae.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Keovar, sorry. I definitely didn't intend to misrepresent. I was just trying to illustrate the problem. Judging by Gloreindl's question, I didn't do a very good job :)
@Gloreindl, you didn't miss anything. I just did a bad job of making my point.
Keovar had sugested earning XP by account rather than by character. I was trying to illustrate the problem with this. In essence, because of things like Destiny's Twin and the ability to pay for additional XP Gain, you would have to end up doing some very funky accounting in order to ensure that a single character didn't have access to more of that account-based XP than they should be able to spend. At that point, what's the benefit of storing the XP by Account rather than by Character?
For what it's worth, I am very much in support of an Account gaining experience based on how much Character XP is spent, and I think there's a lot of room for really cool account-based features that unlock as the Account itself levels up.
Sorry to bug y'all, but could somebody explain to me what people mean by this "Destiny's Twin" thing?
Destiny's Twin is a reward from the latest Kickstarter that grants every Adventurer or Crowdforger pledge the ability to name a 2nd character that will always gain XP whenever a named 1st character is gaining XP. In essence, it's a free alt that levels up exactly as fast as your main.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually, an account having it's own level ups could be nice.
It'd be a measure of how long you've been playing the game, and buying time. It'd remind me of City of Heroes, how you got bonuses every 3 months of subscription you played, as I recall.
I think that's the opposite of the intent. GW explicitly wants newer players to be relevant in the game. The more perks veterans get, the wider that gap gets.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A character should matter to the player. If you start a character and invest a couple of years into him that character should retain that investment, not the account. Give it to the account and suddenly I might feel I could throw that character out on his ear. This way I want to keep him well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Grumpy Mel
Assuming there is some sort of wait that could cause annoyance or boredom, I really like the idea of a que or notice that lets you know how much longer you have to wait and when training is available.
This would satisfy my worry. Give me the ability to que my spot in line (if there is one), and let me see how many are ahead and when I am up for it. Though there should be some time limit to "holding" a persons spot in line. So that multiple people dont get qued for access but they are actually off line or some crap. Besides if you can see how many more people are ahead of you, it gives you an idea when you need to be there. If you wait til your like 1 person away but you are 1 hour away from that settlement (completely made up time), then its your own fault if you miss your 5-10 min window of training access.