Discussion thread for new blog entry Goblinworks Blog: Are You Experienced?
Goblin Squad Member
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The mechanics of everything sound pretty good, but the first problem that jumped out at me is: Once again evil characters may be getting the short end of the stick.
Now correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it eluded to that evil settlements would not function as well as good settlements and may not have access to the same services that a well run good city would?
So does that mean that as the game progresses, evil characters will be generally less skilled than their good counterparts because they can't get access to the same quality of training that a good character can?
It sounds that way to me from my first reading.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do not like the change on ability scores. The Tabula Rasa method is a very not pathfinder. Dungeons and Dragons starts very clearly with people making decisions at character creation. I really liked what you were going to do originally. This takes the fun out of making characters.
If your character get to 8th level in a month that is not a big deal thing for someone to scrap a character and start over. Do not like the trade off, it seems like bending over backwards to appease people who want to "mess around" with char concepts.
It's high fantasy guys. We have all played it and know what the char concepts are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds pretty good and along the same spirit as we've heard before at a high level.
Only concern might be how someone that starts down all 11 paths (11 days training time) compares to someone that invests 11 days in a single path. One shouldn't always be a no brainer over the other. Although the "dedication" mechanics Stephan came up with earlier might help there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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..One of the very best features of this time-based character advancement system is that it allows us to plan to deliver content on a fairly lengthy schedule. ... Our time-based system means that no character can advance past a certain point in real time regardless of how much game time the player invests.
My biggest fear in playing PFO is that my inexperience with other on-line games would keep me crippled versus more experienced players. I think this approach is very smart as it insures that people can play for fun without grinding just so they can stay alive. In particular, those players in Early Enrollment will not have an insurmountable edge over the players coming on board at Open Enrollment.
I especially like advancement of ability scores being tied to actions in the game. I think all our character achievements should be linked in that way.
Great blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds pretty good and along the same spirit as we've heard before at a high level.
Only concern might be how someone that starts down all 11 paths (11 days training time) compares to someone that invests 11 days in a single path. One shouldn't always be a no brainer over the other. Although the "dedication" mechanics Stephan came up with earlier might help there.
I think that's where it gets into what they're saying about not being more powerful, but more versitile. With limited skill slots, having level 1 in 11 places would only give you a lot of different weak skills to switch between, rather than, say, level 3 fighter straight up making you good at combat.
The mechanics of everything sound pretty good, but the first problem that jumped out at me is: Once again evil characters may be getting the short end of the stick.
Now correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it eluded to that evil settlements would not function as well as good settlements and may not have access to the same services that a well run good city would?
So does that mean that as the game progresses, evil characters will be generally less skilled than their good counterparts because they can't get access to the same quality of training that a good character can?
It sounds that way to me from my first reading.
That was chaos, not evil, and I think they've drifted a tad away from that. I think reputation will end up being more important, personally.
I've gotta agree with Fiendish. I love this update, but how big a difference will it make if I choose to play an evil bandit?
I am comforted by the fact that it looks like I'd be able to purchase training privileges, but I'm not sure that would really cut it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've gotta agree with Fiendish. I love this update, but how big a difference will it make if I choose to play an evil bandit?
I am comforted by the fact that it looks like I'd be able to purchase training privileges, but I'm not sure that would really cut it.
Yes it just seems that a huge swath of evil characters are just not going to have access to the training needed to keep them competitive against good characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds pretty good and along the same spirit as we've heard before at a high level.
Only concern might be how someone that starts down all 11 paths (11 days training time) compares to someone that invests 11 days in a single path. One shouldn't always be a no brainer over the other. Although the "dedication" mechanics Stephan came up with earlier might help there.
The impression I got is advancing 1 step on all 11 paths will make you very versatile but not more powerful. Advancing 11 steps down one path will make you very powerful but less versatile. If getting to level 3 only takes an hour (say, 20 mins to lvl 2 and 40 to lvl 3), it should take on the order of 220 minutes to advance one level in 11 paths, yet it should take possibly more than a year to advance 11 levels in one path.
What I like is how starting a new path is like "rolling an alt." I can go down this new path on a char with the same HP and stats rather than having to roll a new weakling and repeating the early game each time. This is why I only roll one toon in every themepark I play.
Anyways, loving everything I read on this blog.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That was chaos, not evil, and I think they've drifted a tad away from that. I think reputation will end up being more important, personally.
Agree on reputation being most important. Especially since it will be quite possible to play a high-rep CE player killer easily by using the Outlaw flag.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes it just seems that a huge swath of evil characters are just not going to have access to the training needed to keep them competitive against good characters.I've gotta agree with Fiendish. I love this update, but how big a difference will it make if I choose to play an evil bandit?
I am comforted by the fact that it looks like I'd be able to purchase training privileges, but I'm not sure that would really cut it.
LE settlements will likely have very good, er, high training facilities. CE settlements... not so much.
It sounds good but wont this method of training penalize new/small settlements? How will you build in a trade off to make a new settlement worth the "player set" price of training?
I can easily see a settlement refusing training to someone who left to start their own settlement, then what?
I'm also wondering how this will play out with people who prefer to play solo? gonna be tough to train without kissing the behind of someone. and I can totally see the "join our settlement and pay 3x our normal tax rate for a year or no training" crap when they have you over a barrel.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds good but wont this method of training penalize new/small settlements? How will you build in a trade off to make a new settlement worth the "player set" price of training?
I can easily see a settlement refusing training to someone who left to start their own settlement, then what?
I'm also wondering how this will play out with people who prefer to play solo? gonna be tough to train without kissing the behind of someone. and I can totally see the "join our settlement and pay 3x our normal tax rate for a year or no training" crap when they have you over a barrel.
It will be very hard to play solo, period, I'm afraid.
New settlements will have to develop more to offer more advanced training, yes.
It may cost you more to train as a guest of another settlement, but only your alignment/reputation could really keep you out altogether unless they banished you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds pretty good and along the same spirit as we've heard before at a high level.
Only concern might be how someone that starts down all 11 paths (11 days training time) compares to someone that invests 11 days in a single path. One shouldn't always be a no brainer over the other. Although the "dedication" mechanics Stephan came up with earlier might help there.
The impression I got is advancing 1 step on all 11 paths will make you very versatile but not more powerful. Advancing 11 steps down one path will make you very powerful but less versatile. If getting to level 3 only takes an hour (say, 20 mins to lvl 2 and 40 to lvl 3), it should take on the order of 220 minutes to advance one level in 11 paths, yet it should take possibly more than a year to advance 11 levels in one path.
What I like is how starting a new path is like "rolling an alt." I can go down this new path on a char with the same HP and stats rather than having to roll a new weakling and repeating the early game each time. This is why I only roll one toon in every themepark I play.
Anyways, loving everything I read on this blog.
Devil is kinda in the details there...it depends upon how the synergies of having 1 level on each path stacks up to say level 3 on one path. Anyway, it's just something for them to keep an eye on...I don't think it neccesarly HAS to become a problem. It's just the quickness that the first few advances seem to come at that made it a possible red flag.
What I don't want to see is the de-facto formula that EVERYONE goes about building a character becomes you ALWAYS pick up level 1 (or 2) of all 11 classes because they are so easy/quick to get. Again, depending upon details of implimentation...that could be a complete non-issue...just something I think they'll want to keep a close eye on as they figure out exactly what those first few advances give you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I like the forced diversification. If I want to play a fighter, let me play a fighter.
I don't think this will be as bad as it sounds. The way I was reading that it seemed more equivalent to getting advances in the background skill picks that each level in Pathfinder gives you (E.G. Ride, Perception, Proffesion, etc) then Multi-Classing.
In other words, you have to pick a few advances that aren't pure combat feats. Anyway, that's the impression I got from reading it...could be wrong.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A great blog! I really like how it explains more in detail on the difference between archetypes and crafters (Experts), and it does appear that it is just as intensive as raising an archetype.
Each of these roles requires improving multiple skills, and grants access to bonuses that are unavailable to players who only focus on a small number of skills in addition to their combat feats.
I will admit, I was a bit concerned at first crafting was going to be treated as a ‘side’ activity for adventurers and they will be able to do both just as well as a crafter who is dedicated. But it does not appear that is going to be the case.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I like the forced diversification. If I want to play a fighter, let me play a fighter.
You're not being forced to diversify away from Fighter. You're being forced to diversify as a Fighter. Think of it like Electives in a degree plan.
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I'm also wondering how this will play out with people who prefer to play solo?
From KS2 Update 7 - Can I play the game Solo? (video transcript):
Can I play the game Solo
Lee Hammock: [laughing] That is a fantastic - I love that question.
Stephen Cheney: [laughing] You shouldn't do that, you're going to die.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's pretty good from what I've read.
(and again, evil/chaos may not have as good access to training, but they do have leeway in what they do such as slavery, banditry, things against the law.)
Had me worried on minimum required ability scores, but reading ahead, it passed and I'm glad on the new system. Because not everyone wakes up a hero.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im pretty sure the last couple of Blogs (with additional dev commentary in threads) have cleared up about having access to good training.
The basic conclusion was that reputation was all that mattered on having access to the BEST training. However,you still might not have access to certain areas of the best training based on alignment. But that does make sense.
If I am chaoctic evil, I think its obvious I wouldnt get access to paladin training. But I could get access to some great assassin/bandit type training.
The only real issue is reputation in so far as quality of training goes. One of the devs even commented saying (Id have to dig it up but I know they said it) that you could get the best CE training, but you would have to avoid reputation hits. He gave the example of going to War with other settlements would allow you to be CE and get reputation bonuses, but just random player killing would cause the fall of reputation.
However there is even hope for us would be bandits with the Outlaw Flag. By observing the proper PvP attitude and engauging in meaningful PvP you can still get reputatio boosts.
I plan on Being a CN bandit/adventurer. I can do a few things and still be fine:
1. I can use PvE "farming" to help stabilize my good vs evil alignment.
2. I can refuse positive increases on Law vs Chaos: So as I do unlawful things, I can allow them to accumulate and stop the natural system creep towards lawful.
3. I can use reputation positive PvP systems to increase my rep. Such as war and Outlaw flags (and whatever other player interactions and PvE that do so).
4. If I am doing this with others in a CN settlement, it works towards the greater benefit. So the only problem would be if for some crazy reason I cant find a group of CN inclined players that want to engauge in proper PvP (the positive rep type).
So the way I see it as a CN in a CN settlement that does the right type of PvP, I should have access to top quality Chaos training, and the Neutral part would likely give me top quality on any non-alignment things like basic weapon mastery (I dont have to be a paladin to master a sword or bow). And Id probably have some access (though not top quality to some degree of things linked to good or evil. The only thing I can think I would have very restictive or no access to at all would be anything lawful aligned.
This is pretty much the way I understand the system now (though I might be off a bit on my assumption of having access to low or medium level access to good and evil training). But Im assuming that would work like having my feet on the bottom of 2 different pyramids of power being that I would be neutral.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Awesome blog again... I don't know how I 'survived' when it was fortnightly! (1st thought: William Sutcliffe's book of the same name: I read at that right age, is amusing for "gap students").
I'm not overly familiar with the pathfinder system to compare to, so that section helped my understanding and seems to make sense ie x1 ability score influencing xxx number of skills, needs some "elasticity"?
With respect to which path I was intending, I think as the power curve is non-linear, it seems to make sense that training several low-level useful abilities broadly, initially makes a lot of sense and then using that core around whatever more specialist path is chosen. But I could see some characters who KNOW what they are doing/will do, specialise more specifically and equally some chars sampling as much as they can. Sounds good.
Last week we added a new goblin to the team, Darran Hurlbut, who joins us as a concept artist. The role of the concept artist is to create 2D drawings that the 3D artists use as reference for the many objects, characters, monsters and environmental assets that they need to create. Darran is going to help us ensure we have a consistent look to our in-game assets and increase the tempo of the art team's production.
Welcome Darran. Looking forwards to seeing some of these.
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I'm not sure I like the forced diversification. If I want to play a fighter, let me play a fighter.
I don't see it as forced diversification. If you want to get the bottom-level, barebones skill in any class, it will be easy to do. If you want to be the best Fighter in the River Kingdoms, that will be a bit harder to put it mildly.
This is basically parallel to real life. I could spend years and years training to be a professional player in any sport, or I can spend a few months or even weeks total and play casually in many sports.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I like the forced diversification. If I want to play a fighter, let me play a fighter.
My feeling is that you are putting too much stress on "diversification" especially as the examples given were "Strength feats of her choice to meet the requirement (this could be more attacks, more armor, or just skills that use Strength)." Which seems to mirror the type of feat selection just about any PnP fighter would typically follow.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It sounds good but wont this method of training penalize new/small settlements? How will you build in a trade off to make a new settlement worth the "player set" price of training?
I think this is a valid concern. Maybe it will be something along the lines of once you start being able to train the higher level feats that the settlement starts loosing the lower level feats they can train so that new settlements still have an area of utility.
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I'm also wondering how this will play out with people who prefer to play solo? gonna be tough to train without kissing the behind of someone. and I can totally see the "join our settlement and pay 3x our normal tax rate for a year or no training" crap when they have you over a barrel.It will be very hard to play solo, period, I'm afraid.
New settlements will have to develop more to offer more advanced training, yes.
It may cost you more to train as a guest of another settlement, but only your alignment/reputation could really keep you out altogether unless they banished you.
Player interaction is what it is all about. The more power in players hands the better, because it allows for truly meaningful interactions and dynamics. Consequences for one's action. I love it. We are actually putting MM back into MMO. I hope GW sticks to their guns.
If by "soloing" you mean never having to meaningfully deal with other players, then, yea, that is going to difficult, not impossible, but difficult. But honestly, from the get-go PFO has been about meaningful player interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The more I read the description of Commoners, Experts and Aristocrats, the more I wonder if they are as involved or intensive as the archetypes.
Each of these roles requires improving multiple skills, and grants access to bonuses that are unavailable to players who only focus on a small number of skills in addition to their combat feats.
I had read that ‘instead’ of their combat feats, not in addition to. So now that makes me wonder if these additional paths (Commoners, Experts and Aristocrats) are not as involved as the archetypes.
Can the archetypes take their combat related feats AND take the crafting skills/feats without falling too much behind? I do hope you are making a choice, and if you decide to work on Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, etc. you are working on that archetype, not being a crafter. Sure, you can take crafting skills here and there, but by no means being a focused Fighter and a very good Blacksmith.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No, I still don't like it. If I want a Barbarian with high perception (wis), I am forced to skill in other wisdom based skills I don't want. Love the Coomners thing, the XP deal sounds cool. but I do not like at all the tabula rasa ability scores and using the ability scores as pre req's for a skill.
I really do not like needing an entire tree of skills just to get one skill based on that ability.
Can we get some clarification on this bit?
If there's available training, you meet the prerequisites, and you can afford it, purchase immediately deducts the XP and coin and awards you the feat (though we might throw in a little fade-to-black to indicate that you're going into the back and having a quick training montage).
What this means practically for your advancement is:
You'll never have to worry about losing progression because you were away from the game and didn't set a new skill to train.
I'm curious as to if it idles your skill gain (because you have nothing set to train) but gives you skill points that are stored up until you return, then you can use those points to "buy" into a skill?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really don't foresee evil or chaotic characters having a hard time getting the necessary training. In every game I have ever plpayed in there is no shortage of chaotic and/or evil characters, and I bet big coinage on the fact there will be both chaotic and evil kingdoms banging on the gates of every lawful and good settlement in no time. Fear not all you ne'er-do-wells. Training should be readily available. It might not be there right out of the gate, but most of the really low level skills will be able to be leanred as soon as you arrive at the crusader road without having to choose a life of crime, so that training will be readily available.
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If I want a Barbarian with high perception (wis), I am forced to skill in other wisdom based skills I don't want.
I don't think so.
Having a high Wisdom won't make your Perception better. There's no reason to assume they'll make high Perception require a high Wisdom.
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Can we get some clarification on this bit?
If there's available training, you meet the prerequisites, and you can afford it, purchase immediately deducts the XP and coin and awards you the feat (though we might throw in a little fade-to-black to indicate that you're going into the back and having a quick training montage).
What this means practically for your advancement is:
You'll never have to worry about losing progression because you were away from the game and didn't set a new skill to train.
I'm curious as to if it idles your skill gain (because you have nothing set to train) but gives you skill points that are stored up until you return, then you can use those points to "buy" into a skill?
There is no "skill gain". There is only "XP gain" over time. You won't set anything to train.
This is a major change. Instead of picking a skill to train, you'll simply earn XP. Occasionally, you'll go somewhere and spend the XP you've earned to buy skills.
I'm just hope that I'm totally off on all the negative things I can see coming with this system.
Am I the only one here who has met every idiot in charge of anything player run in any game?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I want a Barbarian with high perception (wis), I am forced to skill in other wisdom based skills I don't want.I don't think so.
Having a high Wisdom won't make your Perception better. There's no reason to assume they'll make high Perception require a high Wisdom.
Straight from the blog
"A minimum ability score value can serve as a prerequisite for purchasing feats."
"It will be common for "higher level" traits to require a fairly high ability score to indicate that you're not just skipping ahead of the power curve (and this makes racial bonuses useful, because they mean you can skip some of the power curve). A single progression path will rarely be enough to keep ahead of ability score requirements, so you'll find yourself wanting to diversify."
So that's exactly what they have stated. Perception 9, for example, could require a wisdom score of 15 (perception is tied to wisdom). But I can't get wis 15 without skilling up other wisdom skills. So I am forced to train wisdom skills I probably don't want to have a high perception Barbarian.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just hope that I'm totally off on all the negative things I can see coming with this system.
Am I the only one here who has met every idiot in charge of anything player run in any game?
Can you list them? That would be constructive to discuss. If you are saying, "player-run" == gating content from you, it will be check/balanced by your social network and by market forces, I imagine? If that's what you're driving at...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@avari3,
Yes. They "can", and it will be "common". I guarantee you it will also be generally rational, and not punitive.
If you want your Barbarian to have a really high Magic Missiles skill, he'll probably need a high Intelligence. That makes sense.
I expect General Skills will commonly not have high Attribute Score requirements.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you list them? That would be constructive to discuss. If you are saying, "player-run" == gating content from you, it will be check/balanced by your social network and by market forces, I imagine? If that's what you're driving at...I'm just hope that I'm totally off on all the negative things I can see coming with this system.
Am I the only one here who has met every idiot in charge of anything player run in any game?
I'm not worried about the market for training skills. It's a very cool method they are proposing and if it is ever skewered they can always change availablity with the tap of a wand. All of the markets are in their hands and they will close and open the drains a faucets as needed.
It's the Char creation that sucks a lemon to me. It's counter intuitive, and all starting characters being tabula rasa clones is major anathema to role players. Characters should have flavor from day one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is a valid concern. Maybe it will be something along the lines of once you start being able to train the higher level feats that the settlement starts loosing the lower level feats they can train so that new settlements still have an area of utility.It sounds good but wont this method of training penalize new/small settlements? How will you build in a trade off to make a new settlement worth the "player set" price of training?
I could see small settlements having to ally in very proactively diplomatic ways - or - become a splinter faction from larger settlements looking to expand their kingdoms?
Also it's mentioned in the blog eventually building very specialist stuff will be an upside.
But yes, being a small fish surrounded by big fish... !
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect General Skills will commonly not have high Attribute Score requirements.
That would solve half of my problem with it. As long as it's class feature things and not general skills. Although I still liked the old proposal better. It also sounds like a "planning " nightmare. How many INt skills do I need for X spell? How many Str feats add up the fractions needed for 2-H axe mastery?
Nah, man I don't like it at all. The original proposal was awesome, I don;t liek this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can you list them? That would be constructive to discuss. If you are saying, "player-run" == gating content from you, it will be check/balanced by your social network and by market forces, I imagine? If that's what you're driving at...I'm just hope that I'm totally off on all the negative things I can see coming with this system.
Am I the only one here who has met every idiot in charge of anything player run in any game?
I'm not worried about the market for training skills. It's a very cool method they are proposing and if it is ever skewered they can always change availablity with the tap of a wand. All of the markets are in their hands and they will close and open the drains a faucets as needed.
It's the Char creation that sucks a lemon to me. It's counter intuitive, and all starting characters being tabula rasa clones is major anathema to role players. Characters should have flavor from day one.
Ah you are not talking about the mmo but the concept... . Races will be one divergence, which I assume is a place to start from. Can't you just train up the skills that fit the ability scores you wish your char to excel at? The problem is you may choose ability scores that come back to haunt you if they are fixed on day one eg "roll to fix" iirc from when I played DnD?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't really like the "Everyone starts out with the same ability scores" and "ability scores have no direct effect on game-play" either...but I understand perfectly well WHY they went that route.
Alot of people don't really know what they want to do on Day 1....and alot of people don't really want to end up permanently living with the consequences of the choices they made in initial character creation.
I'm more of a "you live with your choices good or bad" kinda guy...but that's a bit of a foriegn concept for many MMO players....so alot of people would absolutely hate being stuck with that kind of thing.
Ultimately the choice they made is probably a very practical one....even if it does take away some of the flavor/gameplay from character creation.