I think that "magic mart" and "magic shop" are too similar.
I recommend that in the future when people express their disapproval for the concept of freely available magic items, they register a complaint against what they really hate, which I view as the Infinite Capacity Magic Item Vending Machine which I picture as a sort of ATM device that you can scroll through any possible magic item and insert your gold coins and PRESTO, out pops whatever you wanted to buy.
I may have to put one of these in my world somewhere...
DONE!!! You have the agreement of this particular in-duh-vidual.
Now you just have to get all the rest of the in-duh-viduals in the world to agree.
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And I'm telling YOU that unless they higher the most powerful people on the planet to guard thise items then there is always someone or a group that is stronger.So why hasn't the strongest one taken all the magic items from the weaker owners? Like say, the strongest dragon collected them into one big hoard?Better yet.
Let's use a classic example. Smaug from the Hobbit caught wind of how much gold the dwarves had, because it became common knowledge, and he took it.
So, why didn't he go out and take all the gold in the world after that? Or at least, all the gold from those weaker than he is.
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This was not intended as a cheap shot against you. It was merely an observation about you based on the many threads that you have started up concerning the very items you list above and how you dislike the way that Paizo has implemented them, nothing more.Shallowsoul (who seems to be against everything magic-related in Pathfinder, yet still plays Pathfinder?!?)You do know this is baiting as well when you take a cheap shot at someone.
But how about I remind you that it is okay to love a system and yet hate certain aspects of it. There is actually more to the game than magic item creation, magic shops, and problem spells. I have already said it before and I will say it again, Wizards are my favorite class and if make item creation harder and more costly, tone down the magic shops, and fix the problem spells you will have a more balanced class that can still keeping kick ass and take names.
If you want to prove me wrong then start a thread and take your best shot.
My apologies.
As long as we are at an understanding.
I'm not; that sounds awesome. How do I get there?I am against the extreme uber shop of everything instantly.I think everyone in this thread is against that, actually.
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When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to get a minor wondrous item but that was it.
I'm not; that sounds awesome. How do I get there?I am against the extreme uber shop of everything instantly.I think everyone in this thread is against that, actually.
My cousin Jim?
When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.
So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
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When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
I rarely had crafting in my games.
I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.
Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?
The most likely reason is because you wouldn't want to tempt a magical artisan's security system.
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If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.
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That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
Then how do magic items get made to begin with?
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Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
Most items were already made in a time long ago. Sometimes a PC could commission an item from the dwarves but it depends on what it is.
Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
Only evil outsiders create them, through a complex process involving soul gems and the tears of the recently orphaned.
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Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
If you play role playing games then I'm sure you can use your imagination and come up with a reason.
I'm actually very surprised you even asked that. Do you truly think there isn't another way to have items in your campaign?
Most items were already made in a time long ago. Sometimes a PC could commission an item from the dwarves but it depends on what it is.Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
Does this mean a dwarf PC could make a magic item?
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Does this mean a dwarf PC could make a magic item?Most items were already made in a time long ago. Sometimes a PC could commission an item from the dwarves but it depends on what it is.Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
No.
NPC's make items and even that is extremely rare.
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What mechanic do the NPCs use to make the items? What makes it so special that it's beyond the reach of PCs? Why?
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What mechanic do the NPCs use to make the items? What makes it so special that it's beyond the reach of PCs? Why?lulz. because its magic and mysterious? Not everything has to be figured out like what are the physics of a meteor swarm spell..
More likely because it allows the GM to maintain control of the players' characters.
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Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
A complex process called "GM FIAT" and "Because I said so."
A complex process called "GM FIAT" and "Because I said so."Then how do magic items get made to begin with?That's because Crafting feats, except for Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion and Leadership are off limits in my games.If you do'nt have houserules preventing/nerfing it, I'm curious why there aren't.I rarely had crafting in my games.When I did have magic shops in my games they only sold potions, spell components, blank spellbooks etc and scrolls. Now with a very good diplomacy roll you could talk to the shopkeeper who has a friend that knows this guy that knows this other guy who might be able to a minor wondrous item but that was it.So you have a lot of pc crafters in your games?
Heh. I hate that phrase. I've never accepted it.
Interesting kmal2t...
"roam free and do as you please" is precisely the atmosphere I strive to achieve in my games.
There is some illusion involved, but like all good GMs, I try to keep the illusions concealed as much as possible.
Adepts qualify for magic item creation feats, such as scribe scroll, brew potion, and craft wondrous item. Most magic item creators are probably 3rd level adepts. They can very easily get Spellcraft modifiers that are high enough to craft most anything they darn well please, and thus can provide the lion's share of common magic items like minor wondrous items, elixirs, dusts, and magic traps. For example, here is an adept from my campaign that is a professional item enchanter.
Valerie Surefire, CR 1/3 (135 XP)
Medium humanoid (human) adept (favored class) 3
Init +0; Senses Perception +0
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AC 10, touch 10, flat 10
Hp 7 (3d6-3); Fort +0, Ref +1; Will +3
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Adept Spells Prepared (CL 3rd)
1st~cure light wounds, endure elements, comprehend languages
Orisons~ detect magic, mending, purify food & drink, create water
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Str 8, Dex 10, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 11
BAB +1; CMB +0; CMD 10
Feats Skill Focus (Spellcraft)*, Skill Focus (Appraise) (1), Craft Wondrous Item (3)
Skills Appraise +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +7, Knowledge (Religion) +7, Knowledge (Nature) +7, Spellcraft +12
Equipment (250 gp) masterwork tool (appraise), masterwork tool (knowledge {arcana}), masterwork tool (knowledge {religion}), masterwork tool (knowledge {nature}), masterwork tool (spellcraft)
SQ summon familiar
Languages Common + 1 other
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Notes: Valerie has a pet raven familiar named Siggy that grants a +3 on appraise checks and speaks common. The raven has 3 hit dice, 3 hp, +2 natural armor, 7 Intelligence, and the following special abilities--Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, and deliver touch spells. Siggy helps her out around the shop, uses aid-another whenever needed, and watches customers more like a hawk than a raven.Ad-Hoc CR Adjustment: Valerie's CR has been calculated based on Bestiary rules (setting her base CR at 1) has no combat equipment or combat capabilities and her CR has been reduced by 2 to reflect this (-1 CR for effectively being naked, -1 CR for lacking anything offensive or even defensive). Valerie is not a threat, but her shop might be (see Valerie's Shop below).
Item Creation: Valerie has a +12 spellcraft when in her shop with her tools as well as the Craft Wondrous Item feat. Assuming that she has to ignore a single required spell to create an item, she can take 10 and create any wondrous item up to 12th caster level.
Valerie's Shop: Valerie creates a lot of magic items for would be consumers and takes comissions. Because of the valuable nature of her wares, she has outfitted her shop with several magical wondrous traps to protect her and her investments:
G.I.N.A. (CR 3, DC 27 Perception, DC 27 Disable Device, Cost: 8125 + 2376 gp): "Gina" stands for General Incident Neutralizing Agent, and is Valerie's basic security system inside her shop. Gina is a female personality sentient magic item resetting trap with a true seeing visual trigger. Gina is capable of responding to unwelcome intruders verbally and can take verbal orders from Valerie or Siggy. G.I.N.A has a +30 Perception modifier and her 120 ft. radius sensors can detect the entire shop. If the system detects a thief or threat to the security or safety of Valerie, Siggy, the shop, or its legitimate patrons it neutralizes the threat without mercy or prejudice.
Gina has a resetting magic missile spell at 9th caster level that is used against any intruder or thief until they are neutralized. If Gina detects that the magic missile spell is of no use due to either the shield spell or spell resistance, Gina will instead switch to stone call every round which bypasses spell resistance and damage reductions and makes the area difficult terrain (but specifically ignores non-creatures, thus not risking the damaging of merchandise or the shop). Gina also comes equipped with a create water sprinkler system in case of a fire.
Gina's true seeing was granted by a single use magic item that cost 1,188 gp to create and apply during her construction.
F.A.S.S. (CR 3, DC 27 Perception, DC 27 Disable Device, Cost: 4,000 gp): "Fass" stands for Floor Attack and Subdue System. Fass works in tandem with Gina to protect the shop from burglars, robbers, or hostile intruders. Fass is actually the very floor of the shop and is a resetting intelligent male personality trap. He can detect anything within 60 ft. of the floor through sight and sound (which includes more or less the entire shop). Hiding from Fass is nearly impossible (there is virtually no way to find cover or concealment vs the floor). If a threat is detected, Fass strikes the intruder with repeated frigid touch spells (+10 melee touch to hit). Frass can only target one intruder at a time, but is merciless in his usage of frigid touch until the culprit surrenders or stops moving.
Fass, like Gina, responds to the verbal commands of Valerie or Siggy.
A.L.D.A (CR 2, DC 26 Perception, DC 26 Disable Device, Cost: 1,500 gp): "Alda" stands for Automatic Lock Down Assistant. Alda is a security measure to ensure that would be thieves or vandals do not escape the ravages of the security system. Alda is a female personality intelligent resetting trap with a 120 ft. sight and sound range of sensors. If either Gina or Fass become active, or upon request of Valerie or Siggy, Alda proceeds to cast hold portal every round on each exit to lock the doors and windows and add +5 to the break or unstuck DC. Since she casts it each round, it makes it very difficult for a would be lockpicker to get out, as the thief must spend his entire round picking the lock and then opening the door, resulting in the trap shutting and locking the door again immediately.
Alda, like Fass and Gina respond to the verbal commands of Valerie or Siggy.
Just an example of an adept enchanter with item creation feats and why you might not want to try and rob them.
SEARCH TAGs: Ashiel, Valerie, Adept, CR 1/3, Craft, Item Creation, Gina, Alda, Fass, trap, resetting trap, skill focus, hold portal, magic missile.
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What mechanic do the NPCs use to make the items? What makes it so special that it's beyond the reach of PCs? Why?
They don't use a mechanic. There is a certain clan of dwarves that are known for being able to make a magic item.
You do know it's perfectly alright to disallow certain things. The book actually gives you permission.
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I care. It's important to how the world works, and keeping it consistent.
If it takes a long time, explain that in the rules. Players will consider that as part of whether they take a feat for it or not, and could explain a lower magic world quite nicely if done well. But it doesn't need to be swept under the rug and ignored.
If it takes dozens of people to make a +1 sword, explain that in the rules. Maybe a player would hire other people with similar skills to work together to make items. Maybe they'd like to start a business, or research ways to make item crafting more accessible. But it doesn't need to be swept under the rug and ignored.
If a special NPC class acquires the ability after leveling up a lot without previous features, how do these NPCs survive to such high levels? How does anyone know that they'll suddenly gain these powers at a later date? How do they even gain experience? Why can't PCs take this special class? Who are these people, and why do they become what they are?
These things are important. Especially since this game is co-operative. It's not a GM ruling over the game and deciding everything, it's a group of people working together to tell a story and have fun. A GM who decides things merely because he likes them that way without talking with his group and working out what would be best for everyone is a bad GM.
To defeat Alda just Kool-aid your way through the wall (sundering).
Fass (requires flight to beat)
Gina is an issue though.
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I care. It's important to how the world works, and keeping it consistent.
If it takes a long time, explain that in the rules. Players will consider that as part of whether they take a feat for it or not, and could explain a lower magic world quite nicely if done well. But it doesn't need to be swept under the rug and ignored.
If it takes dozens of people to make a +1 sword, explain that in the rules. Maybe a player would hire other people with similar skills to work together to make items. Maybe they'd like to start a business, or research ways to make item crafting more accessible. But it doesn't need to be swept under the rug and ignored.
If a special NPC class acquires the ability after leveling up a lot without previous features, how do these NPCs survive to such high levels? How does anyone know that they'll suddenly gain these powers at a later date? How do they even gain experience? Why can't PCs take this special class? Who are these people, and why do they become what they are?
These things are important. Especially since this game is co-operative. It's not a GM ruling over the game and deciding everything, it's a group of people working together to tell a story and have fun. A GM who decides things merely because he likes them that way without talking with his group and working out what would be best for everyone is a bad GM.
Clan of Dwarves are the only ones who know the secrets of item creation and they guard it with their life.
Anything else?
My 2 Cents:
I don't mind magical "emporiums", where players are knee deep in +1 weapons and other minor magical junk. When magic is so easy to come by, it just makes sense there would be a ton of relatively low cost magic items are availible for purchase.
Now will you find everything you look for at a single place, no, especially if it's rare or of a certain value. Though an emporium in a settlment of an appropriate size might have a Tome/Catalog of what magical items are known of by the store owner/craftsmen/company. And even if find what you're looking for with such an index, it's unlikely that that particular Magic Shop has the specific +X Bane Y Sword you're looking for, but that doesn't mean that you can't find out where you could find one.
And as for the really cool, "so special the fricking sword's name is known by every tom, dick, and harry" type stuff? I treat those like artifacts, plain and simple. For example, a level 3 Samurai solo'd a level 9 Fighter to reclaim his family sword? You bet I'm gonna make that weapons something a little more than a mundane than a +1 Katana. It's a symbol of his triumph, something special, and I get that appeal.
As for the issue of actually knowing, what Enhancements are in character? Surely a magical purveyor of goods can inform you of what it will do in simple terms, and by there word of mouth will spread knowledge of some things into common knowledge.
so TL;DR, Magic Shoppes make sense with rules, scarcity for rarer stuff still would exist, and the really special stuff falls under artifacts.
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How are they the only ones that know the secrets of item creation? How did they discover how to create items? Why can't anyone else make the same discovery? Why can't items be reverse engineered, or studied? If these items are so rare, how have they gotten out to the rest of the world? If it's known that these dwarves are the only ones who know the secrets of item creation, why hasn't anyone tried to take them from them by force or enslave them? Are they written down anywhere?
Does their item creation mechanic work the same was as in the standard book? Do they use special group-specific feats to achieve what they do? Are they spellcasters? Where do the funds for creating their items come from? Why do they make magic items? etc.
There are any number of questions this sort of thing raises. You're free to do it (if your players are into it of course), but I think it's something that must be done carefully and with consideration for how it affects the rest of the setting.
there's a difference between do as you please as a character i.e. the freedom to make decisions on situations and do as you please as a player where they're free to have what ever powers they please. There's a difference between denying them decision making and their will as a human being (their char) and deciding what the physics are of your world...Interesting kmal2t...
"roam free and do as you please" is precisely the atmosphere I strive to achieve in my games.
There is some illusion involved, but like all good GMs, I try to keep the illusions concealed as much as possible.
Don't try to redefine the debate point kmal2t. The original comment I was responding to was:
As opposed to the GM not having control of the players' characters? I guess they should just roam free and do as they please
Trying to claim now you meant the players is a nice effort but it's not going to fly.
Go ahead, the more you and Shallow try to explain how wonderful it is to deny players the ability to manage their characters through acquiring anything except whatever the GM bestows on them, the deeper hole you are digging.
The two of you are giving the lurkers on this thread a more powerful argument for magic item creation and purchasing than I ever could. Keep it up.
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You could deny the ability to make items because an ancient race of extinct mystics made the magic items of today and their dark secrets were lost with them.
If you wanted to later give players the option of making items you could have an adventure where they find lost texts that explain the arcane methods of item creation.
Exactly.
Shadow, do you have a link to your house rules? I'm curious and guessing there are a lot based on this and other threads.
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How are they the only ones that know the secrets of item creation? How did they discover how to create items? Why can't anyone else make the same discovery? Why can't items be reverse engineered, or studied? If these items are so rare, how have they gotten out to the rest of the world? If it's known that these dwarves are the only ones who know the secrets of item creation, why hasn't anyone tried to take them from them by force or enslave them? Are they written down anywhere?
Does their item creation mechanic work the same was as in the standard book? Do they use special group-specific feats to achieve what they do? Are they spellcasters? Where do the funds for creating their items come from? Why do they make magic items? etc.
There are any number of questions this sort of thing raises. You're free to do it (if your players are into it of course), but I think it's something that must be done carefully and with consideration for how it affects the rest of the setting.
Because maybe somethings go beyond the mechanics.
Ever wonder why "Bladesingers" were for elves only? Because it made sense with regards to the fluff. Bladesinging was an art that was only passed down from elf to elf and taught to no one else.
If I design a world where a single clan of dwarves are the only ones that know the secrets of magic item creation and guard it with their lives, why would I suddenly let the PCs be the exception to the rule?
Oh that's right, when dealing with the PC's consistency is supposed to go out the window.
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Personally I like the idea of a "magic shop" as being a shop where a person capable of making magic items works. PC's don't walk put down there gold and walk out with a +3 long sword, but go in a and ask for the best sword they can get for under 20,000 gold and have to come back 18 days later to pick up there new sword. Call me crazy, but I don't see a shop keeper making it with with 20 million in GP hanging in the wall, especially in a city that boast a thieves guild.
Yeah, it would be totally impossible to have a store with millions of dollars of fashion clothing or jewels or artwork or electronics on the wall in, say, New York City...
Oh, wait, they do.
Like I said, you're free to do something like that if you and your players agree on it. Something like that raises questions about the setting and specifically your clan of dwarves that need to be answered for the world to remain consistent, though.
There's no need to lash out and insult people. I'm just trying to have a meaningful conversation here.