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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
Shops have guards/defenses, same as real life security exists for Antique/pawn/Dairy Queen shops.
Alarm is a cheap repeating trap to have to warn you there are thieves.
This alerts the city watch.Now if this trouble is too much for them, that sounds like a Plot hook for the PCs or they hire mercenaries (other higher level figures, other adventurers, etc).
There are always higher level beings out there, there has to be in order to challenge the PCs so they could use magic to dispel those wards and sneak in.
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If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.I just TOLD YOU exactly what is stopping them.
One thing I have noticed with you Shallowsoul is a remarkable tendency to just keep pushing your point as if nobody ever rebuts it or presents an alternative.
It's like shadow boxing. There's only your side, repeated over and over again as if repetition alone wins debates.
And I'm telling YOU that unless they higher the most powerful people on the planet to guard thise items then there is always someone or a group that is stronger.
If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
What are "oodles" because I'm not seeing anyone offering what you are talking about.
Also: Which big bad?
It could be that one big bad did do this and that's why the PC's are after him. Perfectly legitimate plot.
The Lich in his dungeon however? Probably a very good chance that he doesn't even know the town exists since he never comes up from his dungeon and no one has been in for a couple of centuries.
The dragon? Well that could be the big bad from above... or it could simply be that dragons for whatever reason like coin and gems more than magic items.
As to others... well there have been plenty of cases I've seen where players have tried this and failed. It could be that the big bad is busy, you know being the big bad.
Or it could be simply to inconvenient to rob several different places and people of a couple of items each.
Remember each NPC already has equipment of his own. It could very well be that the item the PC's are buying is simply being bought from a private citizen in whatever town they happen to be in. Simply for the sake of expediency we handwave the part where they go around talking to individuals.
Honestly the main problem with what you are suggesting is that you are arguing a case that no one else is actually making.
and finally lets consider this: Would you want to be the one that robs a gun store in today's society? If not why do you think someone would want to rob the pathfinder equivalent (if it exists as such)?
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Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?
That takes time, costs money, makes you a big target, and prevents you from working in secret.
Not a problem for a warlord, big problem for a shadowy cabal or corrupt noble.
If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
tobe fair, IF this shop had oodles of items, we are talking about a Ferrari store, how easy is it to steal a car like that? The value of the item would have a proportionately valuable security.
Jewelry and pawn shops IRL are hard to steal from and are packed full of $$$$ worth of stuff.Robbers know pretty much what's in there. Do people steal stuff from there? sometimes. How often do they get away with everything?
I picture one of these types of stores something like the Weasleys magic shop in Harry Potter, everything in there is magic (including the security system) it would also be the property of a powerful wizard, which in itself would be a deterrent.
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If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party
Was anyone claiming this? The most I've seen is some claims that there are certain basics you can assume a decent-sized city to have available (like +1 weapons and such), with more exotic or specific stuff needing to be custom-ordered.
then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot?
So what? Of course the villains have access to gear. What's wrong with them having bought it at a shop?
Unless you ARE talking about theft, in which case it'd be a pretty unrealistic world if folks who sell magical wares don't set up magical defenses. And generally, someone able to get past such defenses isn't going to be interested in the level of gear they're able to steal.
You would only need to worry about that if your party scales with CR.There is a reason the “wealth by level” rule is in the core book. If the party isn’t properly equipped (for the encounter) it messes with the CR which might lead to a TPK.
I agree a character shouldn't expect to find all he wants in every shop at every time, but it’s obvious that at level X you should have a +X weapon or/and a +X armor. You may not find all the consumables you need at a specific time nor very specific items such as a +3, X bane, keen rapier, but eventually you will get them, especially at higher level.
So yes, I more or less agree with the OP.
I don’t understand what you mean, perhaps my English isn’t good enough. Could you explain what you mean? No snark intended.
What are "oodles" because I'm not seeing anyone offering what you are...If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
I dont automatically equip NPC's with magic items either. So Npc's don't always have gear of their own.
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And I'm telling YOU that unless they higher the most powerful people on the planet to guard thise items then there is always someone or a group that is stronger.
So why hasn't the strongest one taken all the magic items from the weaker owners? Like say, the strongest dragon collected them into one big hoard?
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Also there is a logical fallacy to the concept of, "There isn't a perfect defense against someone robbing the place so the place can't happen at all."
Something about no solution is better than an imperfect solution.
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tobe fair, IF this shop had oodles of items, we are talking about a...If shops supposedly contain oodles of items to equip a standard party then there is nothing stopping those bad guys from taking them and using them against the PCs. I mean if the PCs can use them to work their way up the encounter ladder then how come the big bads of the land cannot? Unless you are having the shopkeepers be the mightiest people on the planet, there are always others who are stronger.Another thing that needs to he taken into account is the knowledge that these items exist. Why don't the big bads of the city steal these great items to use for themselves? If the players know about these items then the enemy will most likely know about them as well. Why go on a great campaign to hoard the lands best items to equip your evil group with and take over?To be clear, when you say "knowledge that these items exist", do you mean knowledge that they exist AT ALL, or knowledge that they exist at a particular location/specific shop?Specific shops.
All they would need to do is send spies to scope out the shops and take inventory of what is available.
All you have to do is come up with a plausible means of protecting the magic item shops from thieves. Many such techniques have been put forth in this thread.
You continue to argue that the mere existence of magic items in a store will automatically result in an explosion of stolen items flooding the streets.
I and others disagree. Just as you can sell Ferraris and 20 carat diamond rings in this world, in a fantasy world you can sell magic items with the same sense of security. Sure, on occasion something will be stolen. But usually the thieves will be caught and prosecuted.
Or in the case of my own world, the world ruling wizard guild will probably disintegrate you when they catch you. And they will catch you.
Don't forget that spells like Knock, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Shadow Form, going Ethereal, Arcane Sight etc can go a long way. I know shops can have wards but they can be overcome.
AD YOU are arguing that. YOU specifically state, rather angrily in THIS very thread that any "reasonable" item MUST be available because the character has built his concept on it...are YOU fictitious?
Pendagast, I went back through this entire thread to see if you were right. While I found a dozen or so posts from me directly refuting the notion that any item "MUST be available" (Including at least two where I directly contradicted the idea that an agile amulet would likely be available), the closest thing I could find that might make you THINK I said what you accused me of was this from early in the thread.
So, if a player has a desire to play a unique concept that requires a specific item or couple of items to achieve then Shallowsoul and Johnlocke believe that player should be forced to play a more common concept or else be completely at the mercy of the GM to manipulate the campaign so that the particular item or item drop randomly, or else the entire party is roped into a quest for the one PC to attain the items they want?
How is this anything but "my way or the highway" by the GM?
I stand by this. I don't believe this asserts anything like you believe it asserts. However, because it was rebutting your point about not having magic shops, it seems you INFERRED what you wanted to infer from it.
Not really my problem Pendagast.
If you can find a place where I actually said what you claim I said, please post it since I seem to have missed it.
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I dont automatically equip NPC's with magic items either. So Npc's don't always have gear of their own.
Which is totally fine, but the baseline assumption involves NPCs having gear (including magical gear) based on their level.
For instance, a 7th-level grunt or a 6th-level significant NPC is well within their means to have a +1 weapon, some +1 armor, and a couple of nice potions or scrolls.
And presumably they got these items from somewhere.
it's not a strawman argument when people consistently insist that anything 'reasonable' should just BE available at any decent sized city. Reasonable = anything I want for my character provided it isnt really expensive. Which means they expect a menu to be available to purchase what they want, when they want it.Pendagast, this is a strawman argument. People do not "consistently insist" anything like this. At least nobody I play with does and none of the magic shop proponents on this thread do. This is an imaginary player who is presenting an argument that is at the very extreme end of magic shop use. It is by definition a "straw man". ...
They actually do exist. The group I play with is one where better than half of them expect to buy whatever instantly if they are in a decent sized town.
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Back to the original topic posted. I mostly agree with you. But not completely.
The magic item shops as you describe them (which I agree does follow the rules) is not completely unreasonable given the PF system.
But part of my disagreement is with the entire magic item creation system in PF.
I liked when it was hard to get exactly what you wanted. If for no other reason than it was an excuse to adventure. I want a flaming halbard of regeneration. Ok the wizard says you need to capture a live fire elemental and bring it to him and he needs the fresh blood of a troll in which to soak the shaft.
vs.
"Got some gold? Crank it out!"
Or you made use of what you found when it was needed. Found a +1 hand axe of striking (ignores DR). Yeah you probably didn't use it all the time. But when you encountered the demon that had DR +6/25, it was worth having. My oracle has a +2 keen pitchfork cause it's a unique thing we found. Most of the other players just look at me strange because it isn't the 'best' thing he could have.
vs.
What did we find? How much can we sell it for?
I think the last 4 modules I have run had a total of at least 7 unique and fairly powerful magic items. The group has not used a single on of them. Even though most of them were specifically designed to be useful during that remainder of that module. How much can I sell it for to get another '+' on my katana?
I have seriously considered changing the treasures to nothing but cash equivalents. The only thing they make use of is 'cure X' or 'remove X.' (Even then they will probably grumple about it not being the one they really wanted.) Everything else is just sold to get whatever they planned to buy ages ago.
Anyway, I am not fiercly against well done limited magic shops. I am against the extreme uber shop of everything instantly.
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And I'm telling YOU that unless they higher the most powerful people on the planet to guard thise items then there is always someone or a group that is stronger.So why hasn't the strongest one taken all the magic items from the weaker owners? Like say, the strongest dragon collected them into one big hoarde?
Well I can tell you that since magic items are rare in my worlds and magic item shops don't exist then the location and information isn't so readily available.
Let's use your dragon example. Dragons aren't stupid and depending on their age: are accomplished sorcerers. They could easily have a repertoire of spells that would enable them to take humanoid form and proceed to steal them. Going in full dragon form wouldn't be a wise move.
AD- to be clear, once more. I DO have magic vendors. It's just not a brightly light advertising store. Why do they not have santa elves int he back cranking out items? Supply and demand. They aren't going to have a jar full of healing wands because they aren't going to move that fast. In a pathfinder lodge, they would have a setting where this might happen.
I don't play in a world where the PCs are going to constantly bump into other adventurers, or more powerful PC classed NPCs than them regularly. Are they out there? I dunno...rumor has it!
I use NPC classes a lot. If the PCs are buying or selling loot it might be with a 7th level Adept or possibly a 3rd level witch.
sometimes I have a wandering guy with a cart and he's an expert, and might not even know what he has, which is where they might occasionally get there hands on a bargain, or a cursed item...
Curio shops sell herbs, spell components, potions and might have an alchemist in it. But what they make most of their daily transactions in would be small value things. Perfumes and oils etc.
Wands and scrolls, youll need to find a caster of some sort. Most towns and villages arent going to have any openly advertised.
so no I dont have a place that says "Get your magic right here" they are either black market types, traveling salesmen, specific collectors, or places that do more mundane business than magical business (like a smithy)
These people have to make a normal living without waiting for someone to come by with thousands of gold to make a purchase or two, so no I don't have a place available that sells only magic items and has them all (types) available in one case.
In the larger cities I would treat it like a pawn shop literally, the last one the PCs were in , over a year ago, was run by a rakshasta sorcerer and the stuff he had consisted of stuff from victims, and the PCs were as likely to be his next victims as they were clients.
"magic shop" doesnt have to be a single store where you buy whichever, and if they dont have it you can request it made....that would be a rare place indeed.
Buy potions? Magic shop
the smithy and his secret stash with the rapier of puncturing, magic shop
the duke's armory with his animated shield his willing to part with, for a price and a personal favor to be named at a later date? Magic shop.
It's still a magic shop.
How is that an answer to his question?
LOL, you begin to perceive the debate strategy employed Jiggy... :)
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Let's use your dragon example. Dragons aren't stupid and depending on their age: are accomplished sorcerers. They could easily have a repertoire of spells that would enable them to take humanoid form and proceed to steal them. Going in full dragon form wouldn't be a wise move.
Okay, he's not stupid or unwise, and he's an accomplished sorcerer with access to divinations.
Why hasn't he done it the way you suggested, stealthily?
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I am against the extreme uber shop of everything instantly.I think everyone in this thread is against that, actually.
I'm not; that sounds awesome. How do I get there?
AD- to be clear, once more. I DO have magic vendors. It's just not a brightly light advertising store. Why do they not have santa elves int he back cranking out items? Supply and demand. They aren't going to have a jar full of healing wands because they aren't going to move that fast. In a pathfinder lodge, they would have a setting where this might happen.
I don't play in a world where the PCs are going to constantly bump into other adventurers, or more powerful PC classed NPCs than them regularly. Are they out there? I dunno...rumor has it!
I use NPC classes a lot. If the PCs are buying or selling loot it might be with a 7th level Adept or possibly a 3rd level witch.
sometimes I have a wandering guy with a cart and he's an expert, and might not even know what he has, which is where they might occasionally get there hands on a bargain, or a cursed item...
Curio shops sell herbs, spell components, potions and might have an alchemist in it. But what they make most of their daily transactions in would be small value things. Perfumes and oils etc.
Wands and scrolls, youll need to find a caster of some sort. Most towns and villages arent going to have any openly advertised.
so no I dont have a place that says "Get your magic right here" they are either black market types, traveling salesmen, specific collectors, or places that do more mundane business than magical business (like a smithy)
These people have to make a normal living without waiting for someone to come by with thousands of gold to make a purchase or two, so no I don't have a place available that sells only magic items and has them all (types) available in one case.
In the larger cities I would treat it like a pawn shop literally, the last one the PCs were in , over a year ago, was run by a rakshasta sorcerer and the stuff he had consisted of stuff from victims, and the PCs were as likely to be his next victims as they were clients.
"magic shop" doesnt have to be a single store where you buy whichever, and if they dont have...
I think we determined last night that yours and my version of magic shops aren't far from each other Pendagast.
Which is why I find it interesting that you continue to rail against magic shops that, if they exist at all in the gaming world, are extremely rare and a clear corner case. The vast majority of games, if this thread is any indication, are run very much like you and I run them.
It's sort of interesting to me that I am on the "defend magic shop" side and you are on the "attack magic shop" side, when we actually seem to be very close in how we actually view magic items, magic shops and gaming in general.
Ah, the interwebz... they have a tendency to exponentially amplify minor differences into raging arguments.
Someone should do a PhD study on this phenomenon...
I'm not; that sounds awesome. How do I get there?I am against the extreme uber shop of everything instantly.I think everyone in this thread is against that, actually.
In the interest of full disclosure, in my campaign world if you are a level 20 wizard and a member of the wizard guild, you pretty much have this situation. The wizard guilds' extraplanar magic repository has an amazing variety of magical items. Not everything, but a huge variety. And since all the franchised or partnered shops are tied together with the distribution box mechanism, all you have to do is find which shop has the item and it can be shipped to your location in a few seconds, so it's as if the shop has the entire inventory.
It's good to be one of the members of a cabal that rules the world.
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Why are people still posting in this thread? From the outset, we have seen that the OP has put forth a straw-man bait-and-switch argument. Saying that people post how they are against 'Magic shops' when in fact everyone apart from Shallowsoul (who seems to be against everything magic-related in Pathfinder, yet still plays Pathfinder?!?) uses some form of 'Magic Shop'.
What people have problems with are 'Magic Marts' which sells anything the players want, which clearly is not RAW in Pathfinder! The OP is clearly just trolling and baiting people as it took them almost 200 posts to actually define how they handle 'magic shops' and it winds up being almost EXACTLY how everyone else on the thread handle them which is close to a form of RAI by Paizo themselves!
And even after deciding that they handle magic similarly, he continues to debate the straw-man argument that he proposed to begin this thread! How ridiculous, so please just stop feeding this troll :)!
@ toz: hilar
@ everyone still losing their minds over this: this seems like half/favorite flavor, half economics. Why would anyone have shops that have everything all the time? On the other hand, why would there be NO version of these things anywhere at any time?
The fact is that every 1st level wizard begins w/scribe scroll unless they opt out of that through an arch or something. Some of those die, others become ridiculously high level and have no need for gold...or air. Then there's the medium between these 2 extremes; wizards who aren't dead and still need to earn a living.
Now of these wizards, some will choose adventuring and land themselves in one of the 2 above categories. But after all is said and done there will still be some who are wizards, not adventuring/dead/epic who STILL need to earn a living. I'll refer to this class of wizard as an NPC wizard.
These guys can AT LEAST scribe scrolls for their fellows. It's not the most lucrative gig but it can keep the candles burning so this represents a clear case where its conceivable by a reasonable logic (in my estimation which I know is subjective) that there'd be magic shoppes.
I'm not attacking magic shop, it's the assumed use of it, Im very much against WBL as a Demand.
You must have X or the game is 'broken' because by level Y you must be fighting monsters of N CR and all more powerful monsters dont exist yet (somehow) and all lower CR monsters have instantly become irrelevant.
Abusing magic availability with statements on build threads like "ill just get THIS" and my 'build' will work, IS the assumption that you can just get it, because it is in print in one rule book or another; by passing the entire game and going straight for the item to fulfill the theory craft.
THAT's what I am against. IF it happened at my table. Which it hasn't in years. I would just calmly close my books and pack them up. Because the game would be done.
Whether the PC's 'adventure' /role play to get their items from a dragon hoarde or adventure through the streets of absalom bouncing from store, to vendor, to temple, to back alley to find what they seek, they are still adventuring to get what it is they are after (in my game).
they are not getting the ability to just walk in buy X, write it down in their sheet and be done with it in less than 5 minutes (unless it's an 11th level rogue in a huge city looking for some extra +1 daggers to add to her bandoleer for throwing)
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OK, so, apart from a few unique players, the reason people keep posting "I hate magic shop" comments in thread after thread is because they are against a "magic mart" system that almost never is used in any actual game but somehow the concept of it is so repulsive that any mention of "magic shop" causes a reflex regurgitation of emotional baggage so that everyone is aware of just how thoroughly they oppose the notion of using a system that pretty much never actually gets used at all.
I think I get it now.
OK, so, apart from a few unique players, the reason people keep posting "I hate magic shop" comments in thread after thread is because they are against a "magic mart" system that almost never is used in any actual game but somehow the concept of it is so repulsive that any mention of "magic shop" causes a reflex regurgitation of emotional baggage so that everyone is aware of just how thoroughly they oppose the notion of using a system that pretty much never actually gets used at all.
I think I get it now.
Just by posting this you've highly offended me due to my emotional connection to the words you've used. I think I'll go rage-blog about it for 7 hours while alternating between punk and goth music.
Also, your avatar's ugly
OK, so, apart from a few unique players, the reason people keep posting "I hate magic shop" comments in thread after thread is because they are against a "magic mart" system that almost never is used in any actual game but somehow the concept of it is so repulsive that any mention of "magic shop" causes a reflex regurgitation of emotional baggage so that everyone is aware of just how thoroughly they oppose the notion of using a system that pretty much never actually gets used at all.
I think I get it now.
Just by posting this you've highly offended me due to my emotional connection to the words you've used. I think I'll go rage-blog about it for 7 hours while alternating between punk and goth music.
Also, your avatar's ugly
Yeah, your avatar wears army boots.
Seriously, the only reason I started this thread is because I've been on numerous threads where someone will casually mention purchasing something from a magic shop and a half-dozen replies berate the whole idea of "magic shops".
I am somewhat relieved to learn through this thread that it's not actually the odd hedge witch cart or mom and pop "Potions & Scrolls Emporium" that is really the problem. Instead the problem is a system of handing out cheesy stuff to player characters on demand without regard to economic impact, guidelines for magic items or WBL concerns.
And I've further learned that pretty much everyone agrees with the basic concept that PCs should be able to buy basic stuff fairly easily, but unusual or highly expensive stuff would be much harder to locate and perhaps would have to be custom crafted.
In the end it appears that the vast majority of players play more or less the same way and this knee-jerk "I hate magic shops" response is really an irrational rejection of a situation that almost never actually occurs.
I feel better anyway.
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And I'm telling YOU that unless they higher the most powerful people on the planet to guard thise items then there is always someone or a group that is stronger.So why hasn't the strongest one taken all the magic items from the weaker owners? Like say, the strongest dragon collected them into one big hoard?
Better yet.
Let's use a classic example. Smaug from the Hobbit caught wind of how much gold the dwarves had, because it became common knowledge, and he took it.
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Don't forget that spells like Knock, Dispel Magic, Gaseous Form, Shadow Form, going Ethereal, Arcane Sight etc can go a long way. I know shops can have wards but they can be overcome.
Problems with your shop being looted? Have we got the solution for you!
Ada-vault! Ada-vault is an underground adamantium vault completely sealed with no entrances or exits. Additionally, the room is protected by permanent walls of force to prevent that pesky ethereal entrance.
How do I get in my vault? A simple Teleport/Dimension Door/Shift of your choice will allow you to enter your vault.
But wait, can't the robbers get in that way too? No, a teleport trap sends anyone without the proper identification card straight to a magically suppressed jail-cell inside the local prison where the authorities will be notified via alarm.
What do I do for light and air? Simple, the room is filled with as many continual flame spells as you require. Additionally, a bottle of air keeps the room feeling fresh!
Additional security measures availible upon request!
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Shallowsoul (who seems to be against everything magic-related in Pathfinder, yet still plays Pathfinder?!?)
You do know this is baiting as well when you take a cheap shot at someone.
But how about I remind you that it is okay to love a system and yet hate certain aspects of it. There is actually more to the game than magic item creation, magic shops, and problem spells. I have already said it before and I will say it again, Wizards are my favorite class and if make item creation harder and more costly, tone down the magic shops, and fix the problem spells you will have a more balanced class that can still keeping kick ass and take names.
If you want to prove me wrong then start a thread and take your best shot.
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Hiring a group of adventurers to locate and retrieve a bunch of stuff stolen from a magic item store sounds like an interesting set of encounters to me.
Hiring a group of adventurers to locate and retrieve a bunch of stuff stolen from a magic item store sounds like an interesting set of encounters to me.
I'm told it can be, so long as the player who si the go between the group and the magic shop actually gives the rest of the players the correct information. If he doesn't, it turns into a situation of one complete clusterbomb after another, until the player in question quits playing without warning, and then everyone else finds out they've been hosed over due to said player not communicating everything they were told, or even in the correct way.
I think TOZ can vouch on this one. :)
Note, in my world, any shops that have more than 1,000,000 gp in items in them are either 24/7 with full time guards/salespeople, or they have a pocket dimension where the shop owner lives. This pocket dimension is connected to the front door of the shop, and sealed off when closed, so no amount of teleport or gaseous form will get you into the shop from outside. or rather, it will, but all you'll find is a musty rat infested pile of garbage that the hobo's who are squatting in the shop's physical building have left behind. :)
OK, so, apart from a few unique players, the reason people keep posting "I hate magic shop" comments in thread after thread is because they are against a "magic mart" system that almost never is used in any actual game but somehow the concept of it is so repulsive that any mention of "magic shop" causes a reflex regurgitation of emotional baggage so that everyone is aware of just how thoroughly they oppose the notion of using a system that pretty much never actually gets used at all.
I think I get it now.
I would not call it common, but I don't think it is as rare as you are assuming. I have seen it often enough for it to be a portion of the dissatisfaction that got me to quit a couple of groups.
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Mostly though I think it is largely due to the imprecision of not clearly defined terms. I know several people who assume what you call 'magic mart' when they hear 'magic shop.' These are not terms defined in a dictionary or rule book.
In the upper market there is a hedge witch who has a stall where she sells some basic potions and philters. She also works on commission for a couple of apprentice wizards who provide her with some scrolls and a few wands to sell for them.
Is this a 'magic shop' by your definition, yes. By many people, no. They only use that as a derrogatory term to describe endless emporium of everything immaginable. By your recent definition, that is a 'magic mart.' I really don't think I've seen magic mart used until this thread. Until now I have only heard the term magic shop. Some use it for the witch stall others use it for the emporium.
Once people get emotionally invested in disliking a label, they are probably not going to change that feeling because you have a different definition of what that label means.
Shallowsoul (who seems to be against everything magic-related in Pathfinder, yet still plays Pathfinder?!?)You do know this is baiting as well when you take a cheap shot at someone.
But how about I remind you that it is okay to love a system and yet hate certain aspects of it. There is actually more to the game than magic item creation, magic shops, and problem spells. I have already said it before and I will say it again, Wizards are my favorite class and if make item creation harder and more costly, tone down the magic shops, and fix the problem spells you will have a more balanced class that can still keeping kick ass and take names.
If you want to prove me wrong then start a thread and take your best shot.
This was not intended as a cheap shot against you. It was merely an observation about you based on the many threads that you have started up concerning the very items you list above and how you dislike the way that Paizo has implemented them, nothing more.
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Reminder to those on the thread who are reasonable...
Flag it and move on, don't respond to it...
I think that "magic mart" and "magic shop" are too similar.
I recommend that in the future when people express their disapproval for the concept of freely available magic items, they register a complaint against what they really hate, which I view as the Infinite Capacity Magic Item Vending Machine which I picture as a sort of ATM device that you can scroll through any possible magic item and insert your gold coins and PRESTO, out pops whatever you wanted to buy.
I may have to put one of these in my world somewhere...
I think that "magic mart" and "magic shop" are too similar.
I recommend that in the future when people express their disapproval for the concept of freely available magic items, they register a complaint against what they really hate, which I view as the Infinite Capacity Magic Item Vending Machine which I picture as a sort of ATM device that you can scroll through any possible magic item and insert your gold coins and PRESTO, out pops whatever you wanted to buy.
I may have to put one of these in my world somewhere...
Reminds me of the vending machines in several Final Fantasy games, and also the robovendors in Xenogears.
There is a reason the “wealth by level” rule is in the core book. If the party isn’t properly equipped (for the encounter) it messes with the CR which might lead to a TPK.This is much more flexible than the wealth by level tables make it appear; see the discussion earlier in the thread regarding Trailblazer and the "big six." .
Not according to the Devs. Can’t find the quotes but I’ve seen them say that if you mess with WBL you mess with CR. Obviously WBL differs from GM to GM, depends on the campaign and on your play style. That said, I trust the Devs more than Trailblazer.
Actually it's not, insofar as specific levels denoting the necessity of armor and weapons of specific enhancement bonuses are concerned (e.g. there's no line that says "now, when the party reaches eighth level, you need to make sure the PCs have +3 weapons and armor, not just +2").
I agree a character shouldn't expect to find all he wants in every shop at every time, but it’s obvious that at level X you should have a +X weapon or/and a +X armor.
True, the rules does not say: you need to make sure the PCs have +3 weapons and armor, not just +2", but the difference between having a +3 or a +2 weapon is much bigger than +3 vs. +4 weapon.
Same as the having a +1 weapon instead of a MW weapon could be the difference between a TPK and no TPK. Sometimes item X is – more or less- mandatory.According to character wealth by Level a level 10 character should have 62,000 gp. Obviously this doesn’t mean he should have 25 long swords +1 and some potions nor does it means that the character should have exactly what the players wants. But the rules does imply that wealth is a measure of how well a 10 the level character should be equipped.
I still don’t get: You would only need to worry about that if your party scales with CR.
Frankly the whole thing started going downhill in my world when the magic item shops started installing the customer self-service checkout scanners.
Whatever happened to customer service anyway?