In defense of magic shoppes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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thejeff wrote:
kmal2t wrote:

In response to OP

2: It makes things too easy available. Back in 2E it would list the rarity of the spell so that there was a power balance because it wasn't easy to get the coolest spells. Now people take it as a given that any spell listed in any book can just be added to your spell list no questions ask. You used to have to work for them. You also had to work for components.

Where did it list this? I can't find anything in the PHB. It's not in the actual spell descriptions. Or the lists by level or by school. Scrolls aren't broken out that way either.

Was it just for spells from later splat books? I don't see any lists in Tome of Magic either.

There were rules for rolling to be able to learn a spell, but they didn't distinguish by rarity.

House rule? Bad memory?

I unfortunately don't have my 2e PHB or 2e books anymore other than Wizards Spell Compendium (the 4 book series) and I know it lists it in there. I'd swear some books listed it for magic items too.


I don't recall spell rarity. As far as magic items themselves go, they are more rare the higher level you go by RAW in Pathfinder already.


In all of thies descussions I has yet to see mentions of a shoppe that buys and sells spells, scrolls, and spellbooks, which I see as possibly the most common type of maghical shoppe.


Interesting analogy AD. I think for me the difference is the commonality of magic items and the replacement of a tech economy with a magic economy. Where I start to disagree with you and why I can't stand the magic shop (or the assumption that a player can get whatever they want when they go to town) is that you can order a Ferrari but you cannot order a Ferrari that can cast an illusion to look like a different car when you got the fuzz on our tail. Your awesome catalog telescope can not astrally project you into the region of space you are watching. I try as best I can to make magic rare but that is purely a taste issue.


And to the Off Topic thing about medieval..while there are "spicier" settings like desert wastelands and oriental ruins they never really advance beyond a medieval template. Otherwise they become more modern or sci-fi.


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Gnomezrule wrote:
Interesting analogy AD. I think for me the difference is the commonality of magic items and the replacement of a tech economy with a magic economy. Where I start to disagree with you and why I can't stand the magic shop (or the assumption that a player can get whatever they want when they go to town) is that you can order a Ferrari but you cannot order a Ferrari that can cast an illusion to look like a different car when you got the fuzz on our tail. Your awesome catalog telescope can not astrally project you into the region of space you are watching. I try as best I can to make magic rare but that is purely a taste issue.

This idea that "a player can get whatever they want when they go to town" is simply not true by RAW. What is available by RAW depends on the size of the town. As you get to higher levels the things you want will require you to travel to larger towns or cities, which is usually not the same place you are adventuring (it can be, but usually not). Eventually even the largest cities might not have what you are seeking.

The "magic shop" is only going to make the lower level magic items easily available.

And as I keep saying, if you want to make magic items special, make up your own. The problem with magic items being treated like junk isn't because they aren't rare, it's because if you don't move up to a +3 sword by level 12 you're going to fall behind the curve on damage. So that +2 sword is going to either get enhanced (oh, and how easy is it to find a local sword mechanic to upgrade your sword? Do we want to start that debate here too?), or you're going to sell it when you oh-so-coincidentally "find" that +3 sword you need to replace it.

For all the hate doled out at magic shops, does anyone share my infinite disdain for campaigns where you "just happen" to find all the right things you need for your character? Is that actually more believable than a magic shop? And if you don't find what you "need" then isn't the GM really building your character? Is that truly what this game is about?


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kmal2t wrote:


when is the last time you saw a DnD parliment?

/cough

kmal2t wrote:
A DnD Age of Reason with people inventing microbiology and penicillin?

Lowbrow when you have mecha robo-scorpions of death, androids, and spaceships. Thank you Numeria.


I have never come across a DnD game with spaceships and robots unless you consider SpaceJammer an actual setting and not a horrible mistake.

Sczarni

AD - you state that a magic Walmart is a good thing. But a Magic wal mart would only have masterwork and +1 weapons. 99% of a magic wal mart would be "towel of instant cleaning" and "frying pan of perfect sunny side up eggs" Things that they could sell in bulk for under 5G.

You also say that the PCs are more like sports stars than they are average joes...Remember a average person in the world makes like 5 silver a month or something. To get a masterwork weapon would be 50 years of work. A store specializing in just that high end material outside of the biggest cities like absalom would go under. and that's just masterwork, nevermind adding a +1 enhancement to something. When I turn on MTV Cribs, I very rarly see a brand name anything in a sports star's house, its all custom made for them. They don't order out of catalogs, they go to the factory and design the car from the frame up and get limited edition paint jobs. That's what PCs should have to do, find the best crafter of the item they want, meet with him/her design it and wait, just like superstars of today do in a mass-produced world.


BillyGoat wrote:

I've never met a situation that wasn't improved by letting the players feel like they're in control.

Random loot is not in their control. Shopping for items looks like it is in their control, and usually is at least partially there. This makes my players happy.

I find that things are better when the players (willingly) surrender some of that desire for control. It makes the ride more fun for them. But (in my case) it's not random, either.

BillyGoat wrote:

I don't think it's possible for the items to be mysterious or wonderful to the players, since they're stated in fine detail in Ultimate Equipment (or whatever resources you use). There's no way to keep the mystery, except the mystery of "am I going to get something useful, or condensed money?"

Don't get me wrong, my players & I love looting the dragon hoard. It's better odds than the casino. But, to suggest that this introduces any useful mystery seems a bit far-fetched unless you custom-make every item or disregard the wealth-by-level chart.

Items need not be referred to by the name that appears in the published source, and the players don't necessarily spend time reading every source trying to figure out what stuff is. Remember, this isn't something that I do _to_ players, it's something that I do _with_ them.

I don't custom-make every item, but I do select every item, and I scrupulously follow the wealth-by-level (because otherwise I wouldn't know how much to give). There are so many story possibilities in the area of found treasure...

Liberty's Edge

kmal2t wrote:
I have never come across a DnD game with spaceships and robots unless you consider SpaceJammer an actual setting and not a horrible mistake.

Robot can be found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Bestiary. They are common in Numeria .


ForgottenRider wrote:
Robot can be found in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Bestiary. They are common in Numeria .

lol apparently I'm not familiar with some of the crazy stuff that's in pathfinder settings now (or maybe I missed it when it came out).

And I agree with some of the things said. Its not the DM "lording over you". Its his setting and game that he needs to create a balance for and make interesting. A player is not entitled to have whatever he wants simply because he wants it because he has an optimization concept he has planned and he has a lot of treasure. The game doesn't revolve around one player, it revolves around everyone and making the game fun and challenging. Maybe its just me, but the game shouldn't be some kind of Zelda where your money is part of a plan to when you get level X you "deserve" item Y because its part of your plan to have a 30 Str soon. That's just me


So if you feel "Walmart" would make it to "common" for you, then instead make it to where your magic type shops are more like a "Bergdorf's" or a "Neiman Marcus". That way it truly wouldn't be available for every lowly peasant.
With the store's I listed, to even enter, there are certain social requirements let alone heightened security. So to wonder why the local Thieves guild haven't cleared it out, would be redundant. They would of course have all kinds of magical security measures, not to even mention any of the mundane traps and counter-measures.
I don't think that over-all they should just be able to run down the street and automatically grab what they need. Make them shop around a bit. Just because the stores are there, that doesn't automatically mean that everything they want will just be sitting there on the shelf.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


At the very highest levels they actually teleported items from place to place on demand for a fee.

The fee presumably being something that would cover the casting of two teleport spells? (the wizard has to go back after all)

Actually it's a custom spell/item which consists of unique "boxes" which the merchants purchased from the wizards' guild. I don't remember the exact amount of gold it cost to use it, but you put your item in your box, put the gold on the top and spoke the unique name of the box you wanted to teleport it to, and it went.

It does add a bit to the cost of the item, yes, but not the same as a full-blown teleport.

My campaign world has a lot of teleporting portals in it. Some for people, some for stuff. It seems to me that in a magical world distribution of extremely expensive items would not rely on mules, ships and shady wagon-masters.

That's perfectly fine. It does suggest that the overall magic level is higher than Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, more on the Eberron level which I define as magic developed to the point where it operates like technology.


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My character is excited about his +1 scimitar. Doesn't matter if he got it as a gift or found it in some forgotten tomb or picked it up whilst shopping for magical brick-a-brack.

Me personally? Yeah, I don't get real excited about magical items anymore. I design my character with X items in mind and then I go about getting 'em, one way or the other.

What does get me excited is when the DM says "you examine the ring closely and determine it is a Ring of The Winds. It will conjure a powerful force of wind that protects you from your enemies and allows to gently float through the air from a height." From a mechanics point of view, it is a Ring of Protection +2 with added Feather Fall. That's just cool and I won't likely sell this item anytime soon.


LazarX wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


My campaign world has a lot of teleporting portals in it. Some for people, some for stuff. It seems to me that in a magical world distribution of extremely expensive items would not rely on mules, ships and shady wagon-masters.
That's perfectly fine. It does suggest that the overall magic level is higher than Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms, more on the Eberron level which I define as magic developed to the point where it operates like technology.

Well, it actually depends a great deal on where you are in my world. In the largest city of the richest country, magic is sort of like technology. There is an island continent where it truly is technology. In the middle countries it's more of a standard PF setting, and in the wildlands it can be very low magic indeed.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I actually love magic shops. Of course, I never actually let my players just BUY things (other than basic potions). They look around, and maybe the vendor will direct their eye to the strange golden figure in the shape of a snake-man. Any and all magic items in the shop will have their own little backstory, and will be special, unique (at least in description), and will devout a bit of dialogue to actually buy it. And since I've accomplished RP, and i feel the PCs have earned it, does it really matter?


Cpt_kirstov wrote:

AD - you state that a magic Walmart is a good thing. But a Magic wal mart would only have masterwork and +1 weapons. 99% of a magic wal mart would be "towel of instant cleaning" and "frying pan of perfect sunny side up eggs" Things that they could sell in bulk for under 5G.

You also say that the PCs are more like sports stars than they are average joes...Remember a average person in the world makes like 5 silver a month or something. To get a masterwork weapon would be 50 years of work. A store specializing in just that high end material outside of the biggest cities like absalom would go under. and that's just masterwork, nevermind adding a +1 enhancement to something. When I turn on MTV Cribs, I very rarly see a brand name anything in a sports star's house, its all custom made for them. They don't order out of catalogs, they go to the factory and design the car from the frame up and get limited edition paint jobs. That's what PCs should have to do, find the best crafter of the item they want, meet with him/her design it and wait, just like superstars of today do in a mass-produced world.

This. I play low WBL. As a result "low magic". It's not that I don't have magic shops, but I don't give out heaps of treasure to just go to town and buy anything,

I also don't make anything available. there is no "85% automatically available under X gpv items"

There is roll to see what is available, see if you can afford it, or see if you even want it. Lots of RP, lots of skills rolling to negotiate and possible bartering for items:

"well how about 20% off AND you deal with the cad that stole my magic broom, eh?"

I pretty much make consumables easily available, if the PCs can afford them. I also make things they DID find easy to pawn off (since magic is rare, selling it is easy and you get high prices for it) things like swords and armor I might give PCs close to full price to unload them, but they might not be able to sell a red one and get a blue one, because another piece of amor to their likely isn't necessarily available.

Some magic items can have curses or defects or malfunctions and even possibly I have sold fakes and things that weren't what the purveyor said they were to unwary adventurers.

I sold a Magus his blackblade to him once (he didnt even know he was a bladebound magus) I eventually explained the situation to him, he could chose to bind with the weapon (thereby taking the archetype, or refuse it.) But a the time he thought he was buying a masterwork longsword, and the vendor didn't know it was any special either, so he paid Mwk price for it.

I have also sold a flame tounge as a normal +1 longsword as well, because the vendor incorrectly identified it, and did not know it's worth, but the bard who was eyeballing did infact know exactly what it was and bluffed his way into buying it.

I have also sold cursed -1 swords and berserking swords and girdles of opposite gender as well as a helm of opposite alignment (but it also had darkvision, which quickly became known as the helm of war duke)

I do have magic shops, but they are more RP fun and 'adventure' than an OoG way to get "wares".


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The Drunken Dragon wrote:
I actually love magic shops. Of course, I never actually let my players just BUY things (other than basic potions). They look around, and maybe the vendor will direct their eye to the strange golden figure in the shape of a snake-man. Any and all magic items in the shop will have their own little backstory, and will be special, unique (at least in description), and will devout a bit of dialogue to actually buy it. And since I've accomplished RP, and i feel the PCs have earned it, does it really matter?

I usually run magic shops like the bizarre in aladdin, DATES! DATES and FIGS! A pretty necklace for the pretty lady?? With 90% of the stuff being trinkets or crap.


I actually have a wide range of magic shops in my world. In remote areas I might have a little push cart with stuff made by a local hedge witch. In smaller towns it's usually a section of a local high-end jewelry or clothing store. As you get to larger and larger towns the stores get larger and more specialized. In the largest city on my largest continent there are stores that specialize in magic blades or magic rings.

My point in this thread isn't to say there is one size fits all magic shop. It's more to simply say that shops selling magic items can fit the milieu and enhance the gaming experience if you work with it.

When I refer to a "magic Walmart" it's mostly just in response to the snarky "magic stores like Walmart" comments, and the point is to show that stores which sell a wide variety of merchandise can easily sell some potions, scrolls and magical trinkets without breaking the game.

In the end it boils down to how the world works, and that's as much a matter of GM taste as anything else.


Magic Shoppe's don't bother me at all. As played per the rules, there's no guarantee you'll find exactly what you're looking for the first time you try to find something. But there is chance you could get lucky and if you travel to a large metro area you increase your chances even more. I'm okay with that.

/Not saying Pendagast's method is wrong, but it's one that would frustrate me as a player.

//in my opinion, my Shattered Star GM as the right of it. He's giving out non-standard, multi-use, magic items which become hard to part with.

Sczarni

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Dorn Of Citadel Adbar wrote:
So if you feel "Walmart" would make it to "common" for you, then instead make it to where your magic type shops are more like a "Bergdorf's" or a "Neiman Marcus". That way it truly wouldn't be available for every lowly peasant.

To do the math Cost of living says an average income is 10gp a month. The US national median is 3700 a month. So if 10GP = $3,700 then a masterwork at 306GP is the equivilent of $113,500 so a 2013 Aston Martin or a 2012 Maserati GranTurismo. A +1 weapon is the equivalent of $853,220 or a Batman #1 CGC graded 9.2 or This car, or a small mansion. a +2 weapon would be over $3 million, the cost to build a Bradley tank.


Pendagast wrote:


a Magus his blackblade to him once (he didnt even know he was a bladebound magus) I eventually explained the situation to him, he could chose to bind with the weapon (thereby taking the archetype, or refuse it.) But a the time he thought he was buying a masterwork longsword, and the vendor didn't know it was any special either, so he paid Mwk price for it.

I have also sold a flame tounge as a normal +1 longsword as well, because the vendor incorrectly identified it, and did not know it's worth, but the bard who was eyeballing did infact know exactly what it was and bluffed his way into buying it.

I have also sold cursed -1 swords and berserking swords and girdles of opposite gender as well as a helm of opposite alignment (but it also had darkvision, which quickly became known as the helm of war duke)

Wait, why didn't the Bard just use Detect Magic then ID the cursed stuff?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
kmal2t wrote:
lol apparently I'm not familiar with some of the crazy stuff that's in pathfinder settings now (or maybe I missed it when it came out).

Did you miss Expedition to the Barrier Peaks too?


For my part, I think the problem stems from the idea that "adventurers" are commonplace enough to be an identifiable class of people, like bricklayers or bakers. Granted, this idea isn't new -- it has been built into D&D since at least 3rd edition -- but in the very early versions of D&D assumed that at the PCs were special. There were no businesses to cater to them because they were unique, just like there was no "Jedi Shop" on every second corner in A New Hope.


bugleyman, in my current campaign I have a royal wizard who has been hired by a local king for the express purpose of making magic arms and armor for his crack troops. He has outfitted entire squads with +2 weapons and armor. That's his job.

There isn't a royal man of good health worth his salt in the royal court who doesn't have at least a +1 sword. The wealthier they are, the more magic stuff they have.

Even the more successful merchants will buy magic items.

Adventurers are the least common customers for magic items in my campaigns.

Also, this idea that you can compare "average income" from today's world to a fantasy world just doesn't work. Even if you compare to medieval times it doesn't work. Today's world is based on the idea of a huge "middle class" where the vast majority of wealth resides. In medieval times and in most fantasy realms, there is virtually NO middle class. Almost all of the wealth is concentrated in the royal families or merchant classes. People today talk about the "disparity" between rich and poor. In medieval times the rich bought extremely expensive things that the poor simply couldn't even dream of buying. That's how the world worked.


That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.

I can think of few things less magical than turning a mighty wizard into a tradesman, though that is exactly what 3E and its ilk have done.


bugleyman wrote:

That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.

While the blue wizards went off and tried to start their own kingdoms and Radagast went native.

In the LoTR wizards are not even mortal, so using Gandalf in any comparison to PF NPC wizards is just silly.


bugleyman wrote:
That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.

Gandalf was in a time crunch.

/if only he'd had a means to directly fly into Mordor...


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
In the LoTR wizards are not even mortal, so using Gandalf in any comparison to PF NPC wizards is just silly.

I don't see how that's relevant, but fine: Luke didn't farm, he was too busy saving the galaxy. Better?


bugleyman wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
In the LoTR wizards are not even mortal, so using Gandalf in any comparison to PF NPC wizards is just silly.
I don't see how that's relevant, but fine: Luke didn't farm, he was too busy saving the galaxy. Better?

nope


I dare say that any INT 20 Wizard is making a case for being Gandalf-like.


loaba wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.

Gandalf was in a time crunch.

/if only he'd had a means to directly fly into Mordor...

Ah yes, the old "Why didn't Gandalf just fly into Mordor" trope...

You know, Tolkien was actually asked this. His response was basically that the eagles (which is always how the flight thing comes up) simply weren't that interested in the problems of man to risk a large fraction of their population on a risky quest.

Remember, all it took to send Sam and Frodo into cowering shivers was a glance from the Eye of Mordor. It's not necessary for Sauron to have sent a fleet of Nazgul to stop the eagles. And that's assuming Sauron doesn't have his own army of giant flying vultures.

This comes up all the time as if Tolkien never was asked... I believe what Tolkien said is that the eagles simply would not have done it if Gandalf had asked, and Gandalf knew that. Once Sauron was defeated and the skies were clear, the eagles had no problem flying into Mordor.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
nope

*shrug*

I personally don't see the point of starting a discussion board thread about something you apparently don't want to discuss, but to each their own. :)


bugleyman wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
nope

*shrug*

I personally don't see the point of starting a discussion board thread about something you apparently don't want to discuss, but to each their own. :)

Want to go count my responses in this thread bugleyman? I have no problem discussing things that I find worth discussing. Your chosen direction simply doesn't interest me because I find discussing Luke Skywalker in the context of magic item shops to be absurd.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Ah yes, the old "Why didn't Gandalf just fly into Mordor" trope...

You know, Tolkien was actually asked this. His response was basically that the eagles (which is always how the flight thing comes up) simply weren't that interested in the problems of man to risk a large fraction of their population on a risky quest.

Remember, all it took to send Sam and Frodo into cowering shivers was a glance from the Eye of Mordor. It's not necessary for Sauron to have sent a fleet of Nazgul to stop the eagles. And that's assuming Sauron doesn't have his own army of giant flying vultures.

This comes up all the time as if Tolkien never was asked... I believe what Tolkien said is that the eagles simply would not have done it if Gandalf had asked, and Gandalf knew that. Once Sauron was defeated and the skies were clear, the eagles had no problem flying into Mordor.

I have the utmost respect for Professor Tolkien, but I do think that the eagles might have been convinced. If they had, we wouldn't have nearly the same story. It's the same thing with Glorfindel, really. Tolkien provides Middle Earth with plenty of saviors who only lack the interest to act. Good thing Frodo and Sam will get the job the done.

/It's about Sam, always will be.


loaba wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Ah yes, the old "Why didn't Gandalf just fly into Mordor" trope...

You know, Tolkien was actually asked this. His response was basically that the eagles (which is always how the flight thing comes up) simply weren't that interested in the problems of man to risk a large fraction of their population on a risky quest.

Remember, all it took to send Sam and Frodo into cowering shivers was a glance from the Eye of Mordor. It's not necessary for Sauron to have sent a fleet of Nazgul to stop the eagles. And that's assuming Sauron doesn't have his own army of giant flying vultures.

This comes up all the time as if Tolkien never was asked... I believe what Tolkien said is that the eagles simply would not have done it if Gandalf had asked, and Gandalf knew that. Once Sauron was defeated and the skies were clear, the eagles had no problem flying into Mordor.

I have the utmost respect for Professor Tolkien, but I do think that the eagles might have been convinced. If they had, we wouldn't have nearly the same story. It's the same thing with Glorfindel, really. Tolkien provides Middle Earth with plenty of saviors who only lack the interest to act. Good thing Frodo and Sam will get the job the done.

/It's about Sam, always will be.

Well, when it comes to what Tolkien's eagles might or might not do, I defer to the man who created them. Sure people can argue that if THEY had been doing the talking.... but for whatever reason, Tolkien's eagles weren't interested. That's the answer to "why didn't Gandalf fly into Mordor?" The fact that people don't like the answer doesn't matter. It's the answer. They wouldn't do it. Tolkien said so.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Pendagast wrote:


a Magus his blackblade to him once (he didnt even know he was a bladebound magus) I eventually explained the situation to him, he could chose to bind with the weapon (thereby taking the archetype, or refuse it.) But a the time he thought he was buying a masterwork longsword, and the vendor didn't know it was any special either, so he paid Mwk price for it.

I have also sold a flame tounge as a normal +1 longsword as well, because the vendor incorrectly identified it, and did not know it's worth, but the bard who was eyeballing did infact know exactly what it was and bluffed his way into buying it.

I have also sold cursed -1 swords and berserking swords and girdles of opposite gender as well as a helm of opposite alignment (but it also had darkvision, which quickly became known as the helm of war duke)

Wait, why didn't the Bard just use Detect Magic then ID the cursed stuff?

Didnt all happen in the same campaign, or have the same players involved. some people you can pull stuff over on, some people flub their rolls, sometimes the vendor flubs his rolls...


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Well, when it comes to what Tolkien's eagles might or might not do, I defer to the man who created them.

No argument here - the story calls for disinterested elves and eagles. It's clearly about the common man stepping up and getting the job done.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
for whatever reason, Tolkien's eagles weren't interested. That's the answer to "why didn't Gandalf fly into Mordor?" The fact that people don't like the answer doesn't matter.

It's not a case of not liking the answer, rather it's a case of why the heck do you have these wonderful flying creatures who will engage in a battle between dwarves and humans, presumably at Gandalf's request, but won't help secret into to Mordor the One Ring, with the intent of destroying it?

As you say, the answer is that isn't the story Tolkien wanted to tell.


kmal2t wrote:

And yet it only goes up to medieval technology and medieval societal advancements?

Plate mail...kings and courts and virtually every picture of towns and cities uses medieval looking architecture..

when is the last time you saw a DnD parliment? DnD rise of the industrial revolution and labor unions? A DnD Age of Reason with people inventing microbiology and penicillin?

When is the last time you saw a DnD Rosseou or Niche? Regardless of it being paganistic it still has the feel of medieval Europe..

I seem to have missed the Medieval revolvers, etc.

The medieval Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde. (Alchemical Mutagens)

European Samurai, and Ninja.

Robots (Clockworks). I currently have one following me around in an AP.

Crosswords are in the Entertainment and Trade Goods, yet the first Crossword dates to 1890.

There are plenty of non-European and non-Medieval stuff in both Pathfinder and D&D.


loaba wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Well, when it comes to what Tolkien's eagles might or might not do, I defer to the man who created them.

No argument here - the story calls for disinterested elves and eagles. It's clearly about the common man stepping up and getting the job done.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:
for whatever reason, Tolkien's eagles weren't interested. That's the answer to "why didn't Gandalf fly into Mordor?" The fact that people don't like the answer doesn't matter.

It's not a case of not liking the answer, rather it's a case of why the heck do you have these wonderful flying creatures who will engage in a battle between dwarves and humans, presumably at Gandalf's request, but won't help secret into to Mordor the One Ring, with the intent of destroying it?

As you say, the answer is that isn't the story Tolkien wanted to tell.

While it is true (and probably obvious) that it isn't the story that Tolkien wanted to tell, that's not the question here. The question is why do people keep asking "why didn't Gandalf just hop on the nearest eagle taxi and fly to Mt Doom? Duh!" when Tolkien answered the question. Because giant flying eagles aren't taxis, they have minds of their own and they weren't interested in doing it.

In other words, it's a question WITH AN ANSWER. A clear and specific answer. Tolkien didn't "ignore" it. It's not a "plot hole". It's not something "Tolkien overlooked."

Tolkien thought about it. He addressed it. He decided that HIS eagles wouldn't do it.

Yes, that's because he wanted to tell a story, but that's why the one ring existed in the first place. Everything in the book is "because Tolkien wanted to tell a story." That's what a story is.

Arg. Pointless. I don't think we're talking the same thing here.

While you're at it, why don't you ask why Tom Bombadil didn't take the ring to Mordor? Or Glorfindel? Or Gandalf himself? The answer is because the more power you had, the more the ring tempted you. Thus it required a person with great will but little power.

Yeah, that was "by design". Deus ex machina all the way. Totally on the story rails.


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My problem with magic item shops, and easy magic item creation, is that they facilitate number inflation and Big 6 conformity. When the players can liquidate the items or other wealth they acquire and pick up whatever they want easily, they get the consistently useful (and underpriced) bonuses - attack bonus, armor bonus, natural armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, and main stat bonus. They're too useful to pass up and so items that may be less consistently useful but more interesting and quirky get crowded out of the game.

Easy magic item creation and the assumption of magic item shops have probably done more to kill the flavor of older style AD&D than anything else short of 4e's AEDU power structure.


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Bill Dunn wrote:

My problem with magic item shops, and easy magic item creation, is that they facilitate number inflation and Big 6 conformity. When the players can liquidate the items or other wealth they acquire and pick up whatever they want easily, they get the consistently useful (and underpriced) bonuses - attack bonus, armor bonus, natural armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, and main stat bonus. They're too useful to pass up and so items that may be less consistently useful but more interesting and quirky get crowded out of the game.

Easy magic item creation and the assumption of magic item shops have probably done more to kill the flavor of older style AD&D than anything else short of 4e's AEDU power structure.

Bill, from my perspective this is not a problem with magic shops. It is a fundamental game design issue that forces you to either deliver a wide selection of ever increasing power magic items or else you have to modify the game rules so that your character doesn't suck at high levels.

In other words, the number inflation you are complaining about is in the core rules themselves and is present whether you have magic shops or not.

Sure, you can retool the rules so that magic items aren't required. But as long as they are required you have few options. You either let the PCs buy stuff, or your drop stuff on their heads arbitrarily, or you make them go on quests for everything.

Of those options the option of purchasing items gives the players the most flexibility and the most control of their characters.


The point is that Tolkien's answer (regarding the eagles) was kind of lame. He took the time to explain the elves misgivings and he clearly stated that Tom had zero desire for the ring and that it had no sway over him whatsoever. But with the eagles, there's nothing.

It's entirely possible that I missed the passage, in the book, where he talks about the eagles and why they won't help. If it's there, then okay. But it's not (to my knowledge). And that makes the eagle's lack of interest an afterthought. They were never going to be interested enough to help in the saving of Middle Earth. But... in the Hobbit, well that they could be bothered with. Bird brains, I guess...


bugleyman wrote:

That's kinda my point: Gandalf doesn't have time to sit around making stuff; he's too busy saving the world.

I can think of few things less magical than turning a mighty wizard into a tradesman, though that is exactly what 3E and its ilk have done.

He had plenty of time. He made "Fireworks" which were essentially magic, and took time to make. Also, Sauramon always complained about Gandalf spending too much of his time "smoking the Halfling's Leaf". Gandalf in the books was always moving hecticly, but he mentioned he had plenty of time prior, and now he has none.

So he had time to do it. Just not when Action was needed. The Books would have been boring if we saw his life when the world wasn't in immediate peril.

And more to the Point, Sauron handed out a Bunch of Magic Rings to various people. Just think of the XP loss he would have had in prior editions to make those powerful rings. Does that make it "More Realistic"?

And to address the point of "Magical Items Don't Degrade"

Sure they do. Just depends which ones we're talking about.

Potions
Scrolls
Wands
Wonderous Items like Necklaces of Fireballs
Magical Ammunition
And assorted other things

These all degrade, and could allow a Small Magic Shop the ability to survive, just on these.

A local Village's "Magic Shop" is going to sell things like Cure Light Wound Potions, or Bull's Strength Potions, because those things MIGHT get purchased by the locals.

Add to that the fact that unless your 1 adventuring party is the only one in the world, wouldn't other groups sell stuff? And why couldn't the party then buy them?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Bill, from my perspective this is not a problem with magic shops. It is a fundamental game design issue that forces you to either deliver a wide selection of ever increasing power magic items or else you have to modify the game rules so that your character doesn't suck at high levels.

In other words, the number inflation you are complaining about is in the core rules themselves and is present whether you have magic shops or not.

Sure, you can retool the rules so that magic items aren't required. But as long as they are required you have few options. You either let the PCs buy stuff, or your drop stuff on their heads arbitrarily, or you make them go on quests for everything.

Of those options the option of purchasing items gives the players the most flexibility and the most control of their characters.

Sure, there's some number inflation, but most of the claims of it and the necessity of having these bonus items is overblown. You don't need all six and you don't need to pursue them to the exclusion of other, more flavorful items. Yet that's exactly what you tend to see.


Bill Dunn wrote:
My problem with magic item shops, and easy magic item creation, is that they facilitate number inflation and Big 6 conformity. When the players can liquidate the items or other wealth they acquire and pick up whatever they want easily, they get the consistently useful (and underpriced) bonuses - attack bonus, armor bonus, natural armor bonus, deflection bonus, resistance bonus, and main stat bonus. They're too useful to pass up and so items that may be less consistently useful but more interesting and quirky get crowded out of the game.

If you want players to keep that "quirky" item, it needs to be clearly (mechanically) better than a more "vanilla" item.


loaba wrote:


If you want players to keep that "quirky" item, it needs to be clearly (mechanically) better than a more "vanilla" item.

That just replaces one dominant strategy with another. That's no more an ideal solution than current situation of underpriced, constantly useful buffing items.


A fantasy world has, by definition, a fantasy economy. Any comparisons to any real economy, past or present, break down about 3 sentences in.

In 3.5, I DMed once in a while to give the real DM a break so he could just play. I was a lazy DM. I hated doling out magic and treasure that I already knew would just be sold so the players could go buy what they REALLY wanted.

I gave out "abstract loot." When you hit your next level, your adventuring had yielded you exactly the value of your WBL.

At post-teleport level, you could take a few days and go buy it from the many contacts you had who could get it for you. They would, because you're the Lukes of your world, and you're teh awesummm.

We were experienced players, and all the 2E eye-of-a-dragon quests to get stuff to make items was just old, and cut into our game time when we could be adventuring, instead, or ordering items online instead of going to China to buy them directly from the barefoot kids who made them.

Our real DM adopted the "abstract loot" thing for our real game. We had crafters, too, and everyone was cool with it.

The only economy that has any real effect on the PCs is their own. The rest of it is as important to them as the last hamlet they bought a mule in.

The king has a +5 intelligent, spellcasting, vorpal sword of instant win. It's been in the family for centuries, constantly upgraded by court wizards and clerics and craftsmen, and only the true heir can know of or use all its powers. It knows who it was made for, and won't work with anyone else.

I won't even get into what his crown does.

There are only 2 tiers: The truly wealthy ruling class, and everyone else. Adventurers are like entertainers, etc.; nouveau riche, way richer than the average peasant or merchant, and appreciated by the truly wealthy for what they do, but they're not royals. They don't know which fork to use, usually.

They spend all their gold on magic items, not on expanding their kingdoms or putting on circuses and festivals to pacify the masses.

The adventurers are a class unto themselves, but they're not in the 1st tier. They don't pay or collect taxes, and probably don't have an address.

YMMV, but in the games I play, they're murderous hobos with very different goals than farmers or kings.


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loaba wrote:

The point is that Tolkien's answer (regarding the eagles) was kind of lame. He took the time to explain the elves misgivings and he clearly stated that Tom had zero desire for the ring and that it had no sway over him whatsoever. But with the eagles, there's nothing.

It's entirely possible that I missed the passage, in the book, where he talks about the eagles and why they won't help. If it's there, then okay. But it's not (to my knowledge). And that makes the eagle's lack of interest an afterthought. They were never going to be interested enough to help in the saving of Middle Earth. But... in the Hobbit, well that they could be bothered with. Bird brains, I guess...

I agree that it is lame. And it's actually not in the books, it's in Tolkien's notes and interviews when he was asked. But that still makes it canon. Tolkien didn't make it up on the spot, he thought about it and decided against it. And again I stress that the idea that eagles could fly unopposed into Mordor is silly. And if you really WANT to explain why Gandalf didn't ask Gwahir to fly him to Mordor, maybe he didn't want Gwahir to kill him and take the ring for his own. After all Tolkien describes Gwahir and his kind as rather ruthless and bloodthirsty. Why wouldn't they take the ring for themselves, only to be betrayed by it? That's sort of what the ring does.

Lameness exists in even the best books. There's always some thing that it's just more effort than it's worth when you discover it to rewrite around it. I know, I'm on the edge of finishing a novel right now and there are half a dozen things that I am still working on and I doubt I'll ever get them all perfect.

One last time I will try to make my point. When people say "Why didn't Gandalf just fly an eagle into Mordor" as if it is some sort of blindingly obvious plot hole that silly old Tolkien overlooked, that's not the case. Tolkien thought about it. He decided his eagles wouldn't do it. He didn't explain why. Maybe they just didn't care. Maybe Gandalf didn't trust them with the ring. Maybe Gandalf didn't trust himself with the ring. Maybe the fact that only ONE eagle can carry the ring bearer means that to stop them Sauron doesn't have to stop an army of eagles, he just has to stop one eagle. Come up with your own best answer. As for me I prefer to think that Gandalf felt that it was too risky putting that sort of temptation in front of Gwahir combined with the fact that the single-minded focus of Sauron's eye could well have destroyed that single eagle even in the midst of an army of other eagles. All of that is completely plausible. One well placed crossbow bolt and that one eagle is going down, with the ring.

Anyway, yeah, you can argue it's lame. I thought the Bombadil thing was lamer.

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