Hey, I just started a new campaign with a new group. No one in the group has played with each other before. DM announces that all the players are going to roll for health at level 1. So, if a fighter rolls a 1, he gets to start with 1 health + Con bonus.
I think this is a really, really bad idea and I disagree with it. I told him and he just shrugged and said it's the rules and he can do whatever he want. Sure... but is there ANYTHING I can point to that says that in Pathfinder, it's strongly suggested (if not required) to start with max health at level 1, and pretty much everyone does it that way, and the way he is doing it isn't good for balance and such (the premade campaign we are doing probably assumes all our PCs have max health... stuff like that).
Basically, I'm going to have to argue with the DM and try to win. Which is a losing fight, but I'd love to get any evidence I can on my side.
Thanks for any advice.
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Hit Points (hp): Hit points are an abstraction signifying how robust and healthy a creature is at the current moment. To determine a creature's hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally. Wounds subtract hit points, while healing (both natural and magical) restores hit points. Some abilities and spells grant temporary hit points that disappear after a specific duration. When a creature's hit points drop below 0, it becomes unconscious. When a creature's hit points reach a negative total equal to its Constitution score, it dies.
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Talk to the other players and see if they agree with it. If enough of them agree, then all of you voice your option with the DM. The voice of many is much stronger then the voice of 1. Let him know that you didn't spend 20-60 minutes creating a character just to be laid out by a dagger strike. Have the other players back you up. If it comes down to it, you and the other players state you will leave the game. Then he can play pretend by himself =v).
BuzzardB showed you the rules, but it seems like this DM is reliving his AD&D hey-days.
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Yeah I don't like rolling for things that you can never take back or change like character stats or hit dice.
Thanks for the rule help, BuzzardB
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He's the DM, he gets to make the call.
You, however, are not required to play in his game. It seems there is a disconnect between the kind of game each of you is looking for, and it may be best to part ways.
Why do people always act like the only options are "Sit down and shut up" or "Walk away forever"? Have people forgotten that it's possible to, you know, talk to each other like socially functional adults instead of treating every single thing as an ultimatum that cannot be discussed?
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The official rule is:
To determine a creature’s hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally.
But he is the GM and can do whatever he wants.
That being said, ask him what happens if a character with less than 10 Con rolls a 1? Normally, the lowest Con you can start with is 5 (-2 racial, on a 7 base). That's a -3, and the lowest hit die size is 6. So the minimum HP you can start a new character with is 3. With his system, it's possible to start a character with a maximum hp of -2. So what happens then? Do you reroll HP until you get a positive score? Do you make a new character? What if the new character is exactly identical to the one who just died in chargen except for a different name and a different HP roll?
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Why do people always act like the only options are "Sit down and shut up" or "Walk away forever"? Have people forgotten that it's possible to, you know, talk to each other like socially functional adults instead of treating every single thing as an ultimatum that cannot be discussed?He's the DM, he gets to make the call.
You, however, are not required to play in his game. It seems there is a disconnect between the kind of game each of you is looking for, and it may be best to part ways.
If the DM wants to run a game where people roll HP at first level, it's likely he wants a very lethal game. If the OP also wanted a very lethal game, he wouldn't have a problem, and this thread likely wouldn't exist.
It's cute that you simplified it as "sit down and shut up" or "walk away forever," because it doesn't need to be either of those. The DM is the arbiter of the rules, and if he says this is how the rules are going to be, he's unlikely to change that. But that doesn't mean you can't say, "Sorry, I don't like those rules, I'm going to sit this one out." I get it, your thing is that you make really sarcastic arguments, but it ain't gonna to change my opinion at all, and I'm certainly not the one who looks foolish when you make wild assumptions.
The DM is the law at his table, and if their intentions and the players' don't align, then it's generally best for them not to play together.
The official rule is:
To determine a creature’s hit points, roll the dice indicated by its Hit Dice. A creature gains maximum hit points if its first Hit Die roll is for a character class level. Creatures whose first Hit Die comes from an NPC class or from his race roll their first Hit Die normally.But he is the GM and can do whatever he wants.
That being said, ask him what happens if a character with less than 10 Con rolls a 1? Normally, the lowest Con you can start with is 5 (-2 racial, on a 7 base). That's a -3, and the lowest hit die size is 6. So the minimum HP you can start a new character with is 3. With his system, it's possible to start a character with a maximum hp of -2. So what happens then? Do you reroll HP until you get a positive score? Do you make a new character? What if the new character is exactly identical to the one who just died in chargen except for a different name and a different HP roll?
Pretty sure when rolling you can not go below a 1. Don't recall where I have seen it but I know I have seen something to the effect of, "if your attribute bonus makes it a negative round up to 1" or some such thing.
This is a terrible houserule.
If there is no way to convince him through words, then do so through action.
You roll low, first session, commit suicide. Repeat until you get the highest roll.
Watch the houserule disappear.
I thought of this, but it would never work. As a DM, he could stop it in any number of ways. For example, if I quickly suicide myself and write up a new character, he could just tell me to wait 2 hours or until the session next week before he'll work my new character in to the story, effectively shutting me out.
Or he could just wait until I finally get a top health dice roll, then do some sort of 'rocks fall you die' crap.The real answer is just to convince him otherwise. Hopefully pointing to the rule will get the job done.
I hate rolling for HPs at any level as i've seen 3.5e 3rd level fighters with less HP than the wizard. I use PFS 1/2 HD +1 at each level and max for first level.
Have a conversation with him, see if the other players agree with you. If you're alone on this one, let the DM know that you'll give it a try and see if you like it. No reason for either of you to be unhappy though - sometimes the best choice is to find a new group. If the first session already leaves some bad blood, then it would seem that you two have different views of how the game is supposed to go. My 2 cp
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If that how he wants his game to run then its up to him to make it fun for the group. Hell the group may actually find the game more fun that way.
Its not up to you to break his game because you do or don't like a rule simply play your character the way you think it should be played.
If your a barbarian and roll a 1 for HP and with your say 14CON have 3 hit points then you should still charge into battle because that's what barbarians do. If that means you get die during the first combat because the GM wasn't careful enough then its on him not you.
The GM is there to make the game fun if you keep dying or end up completely dead during the first few sessions then you can talk with your GM afterwards and say
"look nothing against how you run your game but I have to tell you dying all the time is not fun for me."
then give him the chance to fix it and make it fun for you again
If he doesn't make it fun for you then trust me you can't force a GM to make a game fun for you. Have another talk and simply say your not enjoying the game at all and would prefer to stop playing. If he still doesn't budge then hey you've gotta walk.
No need for tricks, being passive aggressive or any other shennegins to get things your way. Just talk to your GM like a person.
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Random hit points need to die, die, die. One of the things 4E got right.
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Point out to him that:
1) The rule is to start with max HP.
2) While the GM is allowed to change the rules, that doesn't that's always a good idea.
This rule was put there due to experiences in 2nd edition, where you didn't give your fighter a name until he was at least level 3. Don't get attached to PCs you don't think will survive. Is that really what he wants?
Ask him why he's changing the rule. It's his right to change the rules, but I believe that when you do, you have an obligation to explain why.
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The DM is an arbiter of the rules, not the god of them. He's no more or less important than any other player in the game. Put it up to a vote; if the majority of people in the game want to do it that way, then you either deal with it or sit it out. If the majority of people want to play by the rules, then the DM either does it that way or he loses his players (and, without players, being DM doesn't mean squat). If you want, ask him exactly why he's insisting on that houserule. It may be a convincing position. Or, it may be a load of BS from a sadistic DM.
Vote ? No
Why ? because the DM is the one who has to spend hours upon hours designing encounters. If the DM wants to deal with the pitfalls of absurdly low HP then its on him to make it fun.
If he simply lets the chips fall where they may then bad things will probably happen some people won't have fun and at that point he either changes the rules, works harder on encounter design or can expect people to start leaving the group.
People need to realise the DM puts in a lot more time to make a game happen than the players do as such the players need to let him run things the way he wants to run them because he's doing them that way for a reason. Players are welcome to suggest how he might do things differently to make things easier for the DM but outright voting the DM down and telling him how he's going to run the game. Yeah I give that group about 2 sessions before the DM simply stops doing any prep work and lets the game implode.
If a DM wants to run a game where the level 19 barbarian has 20Hit Point then let him run it that way. He may have a very good reason for doing it that way that will result in a very different and fun game. If it doesn't work an no one has fun then its on the DM to change things to make it fun
While we are here, one more question:
He said we aren't playing with Hero Points. Does that mean I definitely get a free feat, or is that optional?
If it is in the rules, I'm just going to give my character the free feat and never even mention it unless he does the math one day and asks why I have an extra feat... then I'll tell him the rule I used to get it. better to ask for forgiveness than permission ;)
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I think we all know that the DM is the final arbiter of the rules.
No need to keep saying it over, and over, and over, and over.
Moving on.
Has he said why?
Does he know it's a houserule?
Do the other players agree?
Have you asked him how this will improve everyone's fun?
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While we are here, one more question:
He said we aren't playing with Hero Points. Does that mean I definitely get a free feat, or is that optional?If it is in the rules, I'm just going to give my character the free feat and never even mention it unless he does the math one day and asks why I have an extra feat... then I'll tell him the rule I used to get it. better to ask for forgiveness than permission ;)
Eh, I disagree. If I caught someone doing that I'd call it cheating.
The Hero Points are an optional rule that your GM doesn't use. So you can't trade in Hero Points for a free feat, because you never had those Hero Points in the first place.
Ah, ok. I won't add the feat then.
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Random hit points need to die, die, die. One of the things 4E got right.
It also lead to an entirely cookie cutter feel to every character. Let alone the metagamers that have an uncanny knack for estimating such things.
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Why do people always act like the only options are "Sit down and shut up" or "Walk away forever"? Have people forgotten that it's possible to, you know, talk to each other like socially functional adults instead of treating every single thing as an ultimatum that cannot be discussed?He's the DM, he gets to make the call.
You, however, are not required to play in his game. It seems there is a disconnect between the kind of game each of you is looking for, and it may be best to part ways.
If the DM wants to run a game where people roll HP at first level, it's likely he wants a very lethal game. If the OP also wanted a very lethal game, he wouldn't have a problem, and this thread likely wouldn't exist.
It's cute that you simplified it as "sit down and shut up" or "walk away forever," because it doesn't need to be either of those. The DM is the arbiter of the rules, and if he says this is how the rules are going to be, he's unlikely to change that. But that doesn't mean you can't say, "Sorry, I don't like those rules, I'm going to sit this one out." I get it, your thing is that you make really sarcastic arguments, but it ain't gonna to change my opinion at all, and I'm certainly not the one who looks foolish when you make wild assumptions.
The DM is the law at his table, and if their intentions and the players' don't align, then it's generally best for them not to play together.
As it was already said, everyone know that the DM gets final say over how his/her game works. It doesn't mean that they're right. I've played in a group where the DM bordered on narcissistic, and he no only made you roll the hp, he had you roll stats in order (no rearranging), and used the NPC wealth table instead of the PC one. As well, he used "real life" crafting rules ("in real life it took years to make a composite longbow, not a day"). And if he felt your character was "broken", even if it wasn't, he had you killed off, banned that particular build or class, and you had to start over.
Needless to say he and I had words, and I left. It literally was sit down and shut up or leave. Sometimes it doesn't have to be, but depending on the DM, yes it does.
As for the random hp at 1st level, that was a 2E rule that was stupid. If you were unlucky enough, your 5th level wizard had 5 hp. Very squishy. An in Ravenloft, very dead.
It also lead to an entirely cookie cutter feel to every character.How does static HD totals lead to cookie cutter feels? It's one number in a sea of them, and it's not even the only number that makes up HP.
In the context I replied to, it exacerbated the cookie cutter feel of player characters. In PF it's less of an issue. Personally having options as regards determining hit points is nice. The 're havr been some fun times had when the egghead has a higher Str and more hp than the mear shield. In a melee the meat shield would still be more likely to "own" the egghead. ..
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OP,
No, it is not "everyone's game". It's the GM's game. Rule 0 says the rules are what he says they are. No amount of whining / quoting RAW can change that. Only he can. You can chose to play in it or not. That's your choice. You can point out what you see as the pitfalls of his decision (as can other players if they choose), but in the end it's his call. And your choice. So talk to him about it, make your thoughts on it clear and see what he decides. Then make your call. Personally I'd say "play". See how it goes. If he doesn't change his mind and it turns out as badly as some here fear, then it will probably change. If it doesn't, walk away. One thing about it, don't go in and tell the GM what he has to do. You are less likely to have a positive outcome that way. My 2 cp.
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Some things to think about
1. Point to the rules. If he says "I'm GMing and I'm houseruling it." then you have a few more options.
2. Roll with it. Who knows maybe he has a plan in place that's a fun surprise.
3. Suggest a compromise. You roll, and if the roll is less than half the full Dice, you take half for level 1 and then roll away the rest of the time.
4. Ask for some reasoning as to why? If he says it's a surprise, refer to 2, he might have something fun in store.
5. Thank him for the invite, but tell him you're not interested in a super lethal game.
Enh. Show your GM the rules, and if he insists upon it anyway, you can begin to question your relationship with him. If he's going to be a stickler for "realism" at level 1, you guys are in for a rough haul.
Then again, you can get through level 1 in about what...30 minutes? Go with it and have a good time.
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And yet, if the DM puts several hours into it, then comes up with nonsense that can't be readily justified, the players say, "Yeah... no. We're not gonna waste time with something that will probably end in frustrating failure. Hey John, you wanna DM instead?" More time =/= more importance.Vote ? No
Why ? because the DM is the one who has to spend hours upon hours designing encounters. If the DM wants to deal with the pitfalls of absurdly low HP then its on him to make it fun.
If he simply lets the chips fall where they may then bad things will probably happen some people won't have fun and at that point he either changes the rules, works harder on encounter design or can expect people to start leaving the group.
People need to realise the DM puts in a lot more time to make a game happen than the players do as such the players need to let him run things the way he wants to run them because he's doing them that way for a reason. Players are welcome to suggest how he might do things differently to make things easier for the DM but outright voting the DM down and telling him how he's going to run the game. Yeah I give that group about 2 sessions before the DM simply stops doing any prep work and lets the game implode.
If a DM wants to run a game where the level 19 barbarian has 20Hit Point then let him run it that way. He may have a very good reason for doing it that way that will result in a very different and fun game. If it doesn't work an no one has fun then its on the DM to change things to make it fun
If your not even going to give a GM a chance then the game is doomed anyway so the point is mute.
It's real simple
You either give the GM a chance to present you, the players, with a fun game or you don't.
If you walk into playing a game and know for a fact its going to fail guess what , that's a self fore filling mentally will ensure it will fail.
If you can't respect a GM enough to give them the benefit of a few sessions to try something different, then personally you don't deserve to sit at that GM's table.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
In my experience as a GM:
I suggest hero points to encourage recklessness, players say sure
I give the PCs an extra trait from the campaign since I know the first few levels will be brutal, they accept
I throw out minor magic items to become Legacies and beacause, again, I know the brutality coming their way, the thank me and begin designing
Now, a while ago I tried hamstringing the players with something as simple as "regardless of your starting wealth, you all begin in a dungeon with nothing but what you can cobble together from your cells" and I was very nearly lynched.
I guess I'm just not seeing how gutting your HPs would help or add to the thrill of the game at low levels or how ANY of the players would go along w/this w/out SOME kind of compensation. For example: everyone starts w/random HP...but then also 50 GP worth of random minor magic items. That way if someone began w/2 HP, they might also have 2 scrolls of CLW for the party cleric to read over their stabilized but unconscious body after the first fight scene.
Random hit points need to die, die, die. One of the things 4E got right.It also lead to an entirely cookie cutter feel to every character. Let alone the metagamers that have an uncanny knack for estimating such things.
So find a middle ground. Maybe fighters get 1d4+4 hit points per level (or something). Completely random is just *way* too swingy for something so critical to character power level. There is simply no way that two otherwise identical characters, one with half the hit points of the other, are the same CR.
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If your not even going to give a GM a chance then the game is doomed anyway so the point is mute.
Thats because a solid number of gm's don't deserve respect.
The same can be said of people in general...but that's not a world I want to live in. ;-)
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Hero rolls a 1 for their HP
Hero gets on horse
Hero fails level 1 ride check
Hero falls off horse and dies
(The Ballad of the 1HP Champion)
Brave Brave Ser Robin?
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Thats because a solid number of gm's don't deserve respect.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
^Solid hardcore +1 to this.
I've been in my share of groups. Over the course of my gaming life, I've had the mismortune of meeting LOTS of dick DMs. Because of this, I've grown incredibly paranoid of all GMs in general.
While this house rule "could" potentially be fun, chances are it's not for the benefit of the player.
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No man see he can't bravely bravely bravely run away because his neck snapped like a twig during the first light breeze the party encountered while traveling
I agree with the people in the thread who suggested that you ask your GM why. It sounds like he is either a very new GM or, as others have said, is out for your blood. Their are GMs like that and personally they're not the types of GMs I want to play with.
If you decide to sit down and talk with him, point out the flaws of rolling a 1 and having an 8 Con score. Also mention that your average elf has a Con score of 8 (average 10 + racial penalty), so this is a very serious problem in the game world.
If this doesn't work, point to the rule in Chapter One that specifically states that characters start with Max Hit Points at first level.
If your GM still won't budge, you have three options.
A) Sit down and have a conversation between your fellow players and your GM about why he wants low Hit Points, because most of the time that's all his rule is going to accomplish. If your GM is trying to help you tell a story and run a fun game, absurdly low Hit Points does him no good. If he sees roleplaying games as a PvP Match between players and their GM, then there's a very real benefit to him keeping your Hit Points low, and this is a good sign that you should just ...
B.1) Walk Away. This one can be divided into two subgroups, but ultimately no one is forcing you to play with anyone. If other people feel the way you do as well, perhaps they will also walk away and your GM will have to reflect upon why his players abandoned him. A GM may be a diamond in the rough, but every good GM needs a set of players to help him shine.
B.2) GM in his place. Honestly the Roleplaying Scene would be better if more players stepped up to the play and GMed. Not only do you learn the rules faster, but you also learn about the fun factor. That is, when you are a GM and you put loads of time and effort into preparing a game for your players, most of us agree that it sucks when you kill off your entire party, preventing the players from ever reaching the end of the story. It also humbles down the player a little bit, who comes to respect the GM for the amount of work he or she has to do in order to make a game night happen.
Hopefully this advice helps you out.
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Hero rolls a 1 for their HP
Hero gets on horse
Hero fails level 1 ride check
Hero falls off horse and dies(The Ballad of the 1HP Champion)
If I had 1 HP, I wouldn't have chosen adventuring as a profession.
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no see that is the point because no one sits down to roll up a character and then just go uh yeah I'm going to RP that I am not cut out for this and just instead then go off in character to start a sensible career in making tallow or churning butter or pumping a bellows
actually pumping a bellows sounds kind of rad
I would totally be a bellows pumper
Random hit points need to die, die, die. One of the things 4E got right.It also lead to an entirely cookie cutter feel to every character. Let alone the metagamers that have an uncanny knack for estimating such things.So find a middle ground. Maybe fighters get 1d4+4 hit points per level (or something). Completely random is just *way* too swingy for something so critical to character power level. There is simply no way that two otherwise identical characters, one with half the hit points of the other, are the same CR.
:) I did clarify that I like options in reply to TOZ the Original - 4e doesn't have any as regards hit points.
If I had 1 HP, I wouldn't have chosen adventuring as a profession.
Hero rolls a 1 for their HP
Hero gets on horse
Hero fails level 1 ride check
Hero falls off horse and dies(The Ballad of the 1HP Champion)
Hardcore falling off a horse to take enough damage to outright get dead. Hardcore. ;)