A 1st level barbarian with 1 hit point, and 2 more because he had a 12 con and put one in his favored class bonus.
Yeah, the last thing I'd do is get in a fight. I'd go for diplomacy.
OP,
No, it is not "everyone's game". It's the GM's game. Rule 0 says the rules are what he says they are. No amount of whining / quoting RAW can change that. Only he can. You can chose to play in it or not. That's your choice.
GM Fiat being a "rule" is not license for you to ignore what your players want so you can come up with random stuff without consulting them. It is there to imply that the rules are malleable, not to give anyone license to say "F$~@ you Rule 0 says what I say goes".
If nobody else in the game wants to play what you want to play, you've just lost a group. It's not at all hard for someone else to step up and GM the game.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.
OP,No, it is not "everyone's game". It's the GM's game. Rule 0 says the rules are what he says they are. No amount of whining / quoting RAW can change that. Only he can. You can chose to play in it or not. That's your choice.
GM Fiat being a "rule" is not license for you to ignore what your players want so you can come up with random stuff without consulting them. It is there to imply that the rules are malleable, not to give anyone license to say "F*@* you Rule 0 says what I say goes".
If nobody else in the game wants to play what you want to play, you've just lost a group. It's not at all hard for someone else to step up and GM the game.
If it's universally disliked, then nobody else will play. Or you can walk away while somebody / everybody else has a good time (or not). The point is, that rule 0 does give the DM the ability to set up the game he wants to run. If you don't want to run in it, fine. Like I said above, voice your concerns, see his decision, make yours. And if anybody could DM and was willing to put in the time to do so, we'd have as many DMs as players. Last time I checked that wasn't the case.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.
Maybe because some people do put a lot of effort into being DM. I've played and DM'd for about 38 years. DMing is a heck of a lot more work than playing.
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assuming you are going to give it a go, i would roll up and keep ready 2 or 3 backup characters, and play any low HP characters really cautiously.
if one dies, hopefully the DM will let you drop your next character into the action at the next possible story moment. eventually you will have a character who survives the low (or low hp) levels. this can be a rewarding experience.
if you end up not having fun, you can always find something better to do with your time.
Rule 0 is not there to be GM gets his way. Rule 0 is GM breaks the rules as written so everyone can have fun being what they want to be, doing what they want to do.Yesterday I played 0E for the first time with an older GM. Told him I wanted to be a barbarian focus con, with a race of werebear. Now call me crazy but I'm pretty sure they didn't have anything set up for that. He still didn't give a crap when I threw my axes down mid combat and became a bear. It was fun for him, it was fun for me, even if it wasn't what he had in mind.
Rule 0 is the game mechanic put in place to allow for Rule of Cool. Nothing more. If its breaking Rule of Cool, Rule 0 has defeated its entire purpose.
/rant
It's a game. The whole point of every game is to have fun. Imo rule 0 is there to let the GM customize his game. To tell stories that are different then the base game. To give a different experience than the cookie cutter game. To make it more fun. And if it doesn't, don't play.
As for rule 0 in old school games... we didn't need it. Nobody needed to give us permission to make changes. We just did. You had to. Looking at my original copies, I doubt all three booklets would make a chapter by word count in a "modern" rpg. Homebrewing and improvisation were requirements.
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Maybe because some people do put a lot of effort into being DM. I've played and DM'd for about 38 years. DMing is a heck of a lot more work than playing.
More work, yes, but taking on the mantle of GM is not something that immediately means everyone is supposed to trust and respect your every decision.
Respect is something that is earned, it's not a given. Ignoring your player's input just because you're the GM and "they should respect that" is ridiculous. Explain your proposed changes, hell hold your ground on it if you want, but don't just go "We're doing this, respect my decision". That's never turned out well for me in any situation.
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Maybe because some people do put a lot of effort into being DM. I've played and DM'd for about 38 years. DMing is a heck of a lot more work than playing.More work, yes, but taking on the mantle of GM is not something that immediately means everyone is supposed to trust and respect your every decision.
Respect is something that is earned, it's not a given. Ignoring your player's input just because you're the GM and "they should respect that" is ridiculous. Explain your proposed changes, hell hold your ground on it if you want, but don't just go "We're doing this, respect my decision". That's never turned out well for me in any situation.
If you can't trust and respect your GM, you shouldn't be playing with him. A GM can't do his job if he's being second guessed at every turn by his players, and I can't imagine putting the fate of my character (not to mention my Tuesday night) into the hands of someone I couldn't at least give the benefit of the doubt that he's going to try to run a fun game.
Of course a GM should listen to his players and try to reach compromises that are fun for the whole group, but at the end of the night, it is his call what goes and what doesn't.
If your not even going to give a GM a chance then the game is doomed anyway so the point is mute.** spoiler omitted **
your mute point is very moot ;)
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.
If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
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The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
Not necessarily, no. Depends on what he was doing or planning during that time, and IF it was actually for the player's benefit. There are a lot of dick DMs out there.
Incorrect assumption is incorrect. Many players do help with the coordination of sessions.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
How does that preculde you being courteous to the guy who's still doing more work than you ?
I'm probably going to regret asking but everyone thanks their GM at the end of the session right ? that's just a given surely.
Not necessarily, no. Depends on what he was doing or planning during that time, and IF it was actually for the player's benefit. There are a lot of dick DMs out there.The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
So basically what your saying is you'll only thank someone for doing something as long as it actually benefited you, even if the person trying was doing it for you ?
And as far as dick GM's go they're not really a factor in an ongoing relationship between player and GM because those games don't last long enough for that to happen.
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Incorrect assumption is incorrect. Many players do help with the coordination of sessions.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
How does that preculde you being courteous to the guy who's still doing more work than you ?
I'm probably going to regret asking but everyone thanks their GM at the end of the session right ? that's just a given surely.
Um, no. I've never thanked any of my GMs even once. Except maybe when I've done PFS, and even then I think I've only ever thanked one or two in all the months I've played. And only because they were guest GMs from another city who came in just for it. I don't get thanked either, nor do I expect it from my players.
EDIT:
So basically what your saying is you'll only thank someone for doing something as long as it actually benefited you, even if the person trying was doing it for you ?
And as far as dick GM's go they're not really a factor in an ongoing relationship between player and GM because those games don't last long enough for that to happen.
Except for the above exception, I've never thanked a GM for anything, ever. And I've never been thanked either. And rarely anything in a game I've ever played, if ever, have I ever seen anything benefiting me other than "I was nice, and didn't kill you in this sessions."
And actually, yes dick DM games do last a fair while if you've got whipped players or they've got an "in" with the DM. I've seen it enough times. More times than I'd like.
Actually no, I've full out decked a gm at the end of a session. Like literally he hit the wall before he hit the floor, decked so hard.Incorrect assumption is incorrect. Many players do help with the coordination of sessions.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
How does that preculde you being courteous to the guy who's still doing more work than you ?
I'm probably going to regret asking but everyone thanks their GM at the end of the session right ? that's just a given surely.
And how often have you done that compared with the number of gaming sessions you've had in your life ?
Um, no. I've never thanked any of my GMs even once. Except maybe when I've done PFS, and even then I think I've only ever thanked one or two in all the months I've played. And only because they were guest GMs from another city who came in just for it. I don't get thanked either, nor do I expect it from my players.Incorrect assumption is incorrect. Many players do help with the coordination of sessions.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
How does that preculde you being courteous to the guy who's still doing more work than you ?
I'm probably going to regret asking but everyone thanks their GM at the end of the session right ? that's just a given surely.
And yet if I played in one of yours games and thanked you at the end of it I'm pretty sure you'd appreciate it, even if only for a brief moment.
Um, no. I've never thanked any of my GMs even once. Except maybe when I've done PFS, and even then I think I've only ever thanked one or two in all the months I've played. And only because they were guest GMs from another city who came in just for it. I don't get thanked either, nor do I expect it from my players.Incorrect assumption is incorrect. Many players do help with the coordination of sessions.If it takes a GM 5 minutes or 5 hours to prepare a session that still more time than the players have spent contributing before any gaming happens.
Common courtesy would suggest that you at least give a little respect to someone who has done something with their own time for your benefit ? No ?
How does that preculde you being courteous to the guy who's still doing more work than you ?
I'm probably going to regret asking but everyone thanks their GM at the end of the session right ? that's just a given surely.
This is going to sound rude and fighty, and I really don't mean it to be at all (really, I swear), but I find this astonishing. I don't feel right leaving gaming without thanking both the GM and the host. I think if I did, barring storming out in the middle of a session (where I still would thank the host if he was not the same person as the GM), I would feel like a major jerk. Maybe this type of behavior was just instilled in me oddly forcefully though (my parents were HUGE on politeness, and it has stuck with me).
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Being a DM doesn't automatically make you deserving of respect. If you run a game I enjoy, I respect you, if you put a lot of work into the game, I respect you. But simply taking on the job doesn't earn respect from me.
Also, the players do, in fact, contribute to the game before the session starts, quite often--like with the rolling of characters. That's something they do that can take five minutes, or five hours, that contributes to the game, their enjoyment of it, their co-players' enjoyment of it, and the DM's enjoyment of it.
Look at the bright side of life if you roll 1 for your HPs: the harm spell can't hurt you... yet
And how often have you done that compared with the number of gaming sessions you've had in your life ?Just once but I've only been gaming 4 or 5 years, so relatively new. Still I've put a good many gm's in their place over the years, even if it led to a bit of a sour note here or there.
<- no social skills. I say what I think, and I don't thank someone unless they actually do a good job and aren't dicks.
So you'd bark at a new GM for not knowing the rules properly or implementing them incorrectly and not thank him at the end because you as a player didn't think he performed to your standard regardless of how hard he was trying to make it fun for everyone ?
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And yet if I played in one of yours games and thanked you at the end of it I'm pretty sure you'd appreciate it, even if only for a brief moment.
In case you replied too quickly, I edited my post to include the other thing you said.
As for you thanking me, I think my players and I would be taken aback. I wouldn't not appreciate it, I'd just be thrown and probably confusedly say "um, you're welcome". It's not exactly a common thing here. For any of the GMs. Ever. And we have conventions and everything. I could probably count the number of times I've ever heard anyone thank a GM in the 20 years I've been gaming, possibly on one hand.
This is going to sound rude and fighty, and I really don't mean it to be at all (really, I swear), but I find this astonishing. I don't feel right leaving gaming without thanking both the GM and the host. I think if I did, barring storming out in the middle of a session (where I still would thank the host if he was not the same person as the GM), I would feel like a major jerk. Maybe this type of behavior was just instilled in me oddly forcefully though (my parents were HUGE on politeness, and it has stuck with me).
I'm polite too. I say please and thank you, but as I said above, it's not a common thing around here for it to be said to the GM. Ever. Like, we've got well over 1000 people who come to the four gaming conventions, and I don't recall even the last three someone thanking anyone other than the person who let us set up shop for the day.
And to put this in perspective, we're prairie Canadian folk. Can't get much more polite than us.
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And yet if I played in one of yours games and thanked you at the end of it I'm pretty sure you'd appreciate it, even if only for a brief moment.
I would appreciate it, yes.
But I don't EXPECT it. Maybe it's just because I only game with/GM for my friends but the whole "Please, Thank You, I had a wonderful time" stuff just doesn't usually come up.
Not knocking on politeness, mind you, I've always found it's better to be polite unless it gets in the way of something you need to say, but there's a huge gulf of difference between being polite to someone and respecting them (note: Not "having respect for them", RESPECTING them).
And yet if I played in one of yours games and thanked you at the end of it I'm pretty sure you'd appreciate it, even if only for a brief moment.In case you replied too quickly, I edited my post to include the other thing you said.
As for you thanking me, I think my players and I would be taken aback. I wouldn't not appreciate it, I'd just be thrown and probably confusedly say "um, you're welcome". It's not exactly a common thing here. For any of the GMs. Ever. And we have conventions and everything. I could probably count the number of times I've ever heard anyone thank a GM in the 20 years I've been gaming, possibly on one hand.
Hope this doesn't come across as sounding like a pretentious dick but that's doesn't sound as enjoyable as the groups I play in where people actually thank each other.
I dunno, I mean just saying "Cheers for a good game" costs you nothing might on the off chance make someone feel good about themselves. People do feel it when its a genuine thanks and not just lip service.
If I'd had fun I like to let people know they've contributed to my fun and I'd like that to continue
Ah real life example that might help clear up some of the comments with differing views
I'm the kind of person in real life that would thank someone for doing the job they've been paid to do.
Receptionist prints my boarding pass for my flight next week (part of her job), I'd say "Thanks Joan"
I do that too, but that's because they're strangers...if that makes any sense at all.
I'll probably say thanks to the waitress at least 10 times by the time I leave any restaurant, and mean it, but I just don't do that with people I know well enough.
Fair enough
well thanks for the thread ;)
time for bed
wow an old school dm. in AD%D2E you roll your first hd
try it, maybe you will have a low hp... but that will make you think better when and how engage a struggle!!
maybe he want to create such feeling!!
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OP:
Player: "OK, I don't know if I like that ruling. Any reason for you to make that houserule?"
GM: Gives his reason
Player: Reflects if that reason is (a)sufficient for him to try (aka sounds like it could be fun) or (b)not
If b)
Player: "Sorry, doesn't work for me. I am sure it can be fun for you, but it isn't for me If possible, gives his reasons for that. Anything we could do about that? Leave that houserule? Compromise?
GM: (a) insists on the houserule or (b) works with the player(s) to find common ground
If a)
Player looks for something more fun to do with his time, if possible without throwing a fit or in any other way make the situation more miserable.
Seriously: RPGs are designed to be a social game. Try not to be the group of players getting together trying to spend as little 'social' time together as possible.
OP, you could basically resolve this entire thread just on what BlackBlood has said, and citing the RULE that paizo put in place that TELLS people to give max HP for level 1. This game has gone through multiple iterations to arrive in the rules as they are -- and where GMs decide to depart from them they should be able and WILLING to explain at length why they have decided to deviate from them.
If he refuses to explain, or his answer is basically he is hoping to kill a lot of characters -- Somebody else should GM... if not in the group, then at another table.
If he's got a reason that sits with the majority of players, try to go with it and see what happens. Some GMs... just suck. This GM may not be sucky, but rules like this are a red flag.
-- in one of the campaigns I'm playing now, our GM has unequivocally stated he is out to kill us. This hasn't gotten in the way of the game being GREAT, and has even been more fun due to the suspense and risk to our characters... still, saying we'd have to start a game with two strikes against us (even he says we can re-roll 1s for hit points) like your GM seems to insist sounds pretty friggin' lame.
Why is everyone in this thread pretending like GM-ing is some sort of backbreaking labor? It's harder than playing, yes, but not this Herculean effort, worthy of respect just because of the effort that you people seem to be making it out to be.
I would not say it is herculean but while playing is (most of the time) fun GMing is work. At least for me. I do it sometimes and have been told by players that they enjoy it but it is work non the less. And for me it is non fun in itself but as a gaming group needs a gm I am ready to be the one doing the work for the group now and then.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
Telling someone that you don't like his houserules and thus opt to skip the game has nothing to do with lack of respect.
Sometimes it can even be a sign of respect to not join instead of coming and then spoiling the game because (as you knew in advance) it is not fun for you with those houserules.|
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The GM doesn't own the game. The players could always switch GMs and continue the story with their current characters. Typically, the GM is in a position of power because there is one of him and several players, giving him a strong bargaining position, buts that's not always the case.For instance, I know of a campaign where the guy whose house they play at has overruled the GM. Its all about who has power.
I have the POOOOOOOWWEEEEEER!!!
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I think it's definitely about who has the power, not just if you're the DM. In my campaign I happen to have the power because we play at my apartment, I'm the GM, and I provide maps, minis, and all the books we need. My players just bring their character sheets and dice. Also, I have a lot more experience playing Pathfinder and Dungeon & Dragons. My campaign is a little lethal, but my players trust me to not be a dick. Thus, I have a lot of power and can change and implement new things without too much fuss.
On the other hand, if you're a DM at someone else's house, and you're DMing for people that you haven't known for very long, well you might not have a lot of power. Changing things in the rules may require you to explain why and convince everyone that it will be fun, and that's how it should be.
If this is my first game with you and suddenly you start throwing rules changes at us, such as rolling starting hp, and they seem like they're going to make the game less fun, then I'm going to want you to explain why.
In the end every situation and every DM is different. Sometimes you should argue, sometimes you should get up and just leave and find a new game, sometimes you should stage a mutiny and have someone else DM, sometimes you might be in the wrong, and sometimes someone just needs a punch in the face. Without being there, or hearing all sides it can be difficult to judge who's in the right.
Someone should really right a guide to being at a Pathfinder game.
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Why do people always act like the only options are "Sit down and shut up" or "Walk away forever"? Have people forgotten that it's possible to, you know, talk to each other like socially functional adults instead of treating every single thing as an ultimatum that cannot be discussed?He's the DM, he gets to make the call.
You, however, are not required to play in his game. It seems there is a disconnect between the kind of game each of you is looking for, and it may be best to part ways.
I know. It's almost like people think all that conversation will lead to is snarky passive aggressive responses from the other person...
On topic, the GM is wrong if thinks this is the rule, and I personally wouldn't let someone be in charge of a game (which is what the GM's job is...) if they either a) didn't know the rules well enough to realize that or b) Wanted to run a game where players died more often for some reason.
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Thats because a solid number of gm's don't deserve respect.
The lack of respect towards people who are prepared to GM is staggering sometimes.
They at the very least deserve the benefit of the doubt. If you decide they're a dick GM before session 1 even begins, then there IS a dick in the game. Only it's not the GM.
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The GM doesn't own the game. The players could always switch GMs and continue the story with their current characters. Typically, the GM is in a position of power because there is one of him and several players, giving him a strong bargaining position, buts that's not always the case.
The GM is in a position of power because the players agreed to allow him to run the game.
Let me say that again.
The players agreed to allow him to run they game. They entered into a social contract where they said "You can be in charge"
Players should not enter into social contracts with bad GM's. And players are always free to leave a game a Bad GM is running. All they have to do is not show up.
But if you agree to put someone in charge, you should let them do their job, at least until such time as they are fired by the group.
Running the game from the other side of the table is disruptive and in my experience causes far more problems then it resolves.
Should a GM listen? Yes. If a player knows a rule better than a GM should the GM defer? Yes. If a GM is on a power trip should you walk away? Yes.
But at the end of the day, the GM knows what is going on better than you, the player. And if you trusted them enough to invest several hours of time, you should give them the benefit of the doubt, at least at the table.
And if it isn't working, then you shouldn't let them run the game. Which would be what I would be saying to the guy if he was inflexible on this hit points thing.
I have better ways to give up a few hours of my life then to sit down with a GM who wants to break rules to give me less hit points.
But if I did sit down, I would play the game rather than try to run it from the other side of the table. That is basic respect.