My wive always plays Rogues, always for now over 15 years.
She also always complains when I (the GM) do more than one encounter every few gamedays because "Rogues suck in combat".
So I proposed to her a Fighter/Rogue and she has been pleased so far with the results, being able to do Rogueish things like Stealth and Disable Device and still pack a good punch in combat.
So now there seems to be the time to add a little extra and this leads me to my question:
Apart from the options presented in Core and APG, are there any clever archetypes or prestige classes from sources like Ultimate Combat for a Human Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 that expand the "tough Rogue" kind of play? Because I am the GM and my wive hardly ever optimizes all the characters powers and abilities, I have no problems to add on features that, going by the rules, would have to be added from the beginning.
Thanks for your answers, I simply do not have time at the moment to look over all the sources and thus I appreciate all feedback.
She'll want to check out the thug and scout archetypes. She should be looking for angles and dirty tricks like tossing flash powder, using magic items to provide sight and mobility while using the environment and similar tactics to nullify advantages of the enemy, etc. Ninja's got some good tricks to add via the ki pool if she wants to take the alternate class.
She might also want to add a couple of ranks in handle animal and purchase some combat-trained riding dogs, too. Leather barding's cheap and adds some survivability. Since they have scent and low light vision, they can bring down opponents in the dark. So can a combat-trained horse, come to think of it. Any way you slice it, you gain flanking partners and maybe even get a chance to beat on a prone enemy if the dogs can trip their target.
Rogue 4/Fighter 4 what's next?
Remaking your character into something useful? :P
Seriously, consider instead, a Bard. Or at least a Ninja.
Rangers, Inquisitors and Bards can all fill the sneaky/skilled/charming chracter role and still be pretty awesome at combat.
Admitedly, Rangers take a little more effort to be charming, but nothing too difficult, just a couple traits and some unusual skill rank assignment.
A magus can also do it, thanks to the focus on Int and arcane spell-casting. They may need a trait or two to get some class skills, but they can do it.
An Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition (uses Wis instead of Cha for a lot of social skills) is a wonderful Rogue-ish character. This is probably the best choice to make an all-around skill character who can still kick some ass in combat. My suggestion is that you check them out.
Bards are another very obvious choice. They are better in bigger groups though, and they have a lot of focus on buffing the party. They are about as good as Inquisitors, IMO, but have somewhat different specializations.
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He asked for fighter/rogue and you people start talking about entirely different classes. Stop trying to push your views on other people and just help the man out.
Burglar Archetype is good, maybe tactician fighter for the extra skills and group focus.
Continue on as a vivisectionist alchemist, or keep alternating between rogue and fighter. Consider duelist depending on abilities, or another PrC that strikes her fancy.
It would help to know what here stat/ feat selections and what her play style is.
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He asked for fighter/rogue and you people start talking about entirely different classes. Stop trying to push your views on other people and just help the man out.
Burglar Archetype is good, maybe tactician fighter for the extra skills and group focus.
You know... Usually, I'd kinda agree with this. But in this case, it seems to me that the OP's wife wants to play a Rogue who can páck a punch instead of Rogue/Fighter.
My suggestions were about making Rogue-ish characters who still pack a punch.
And Rangers are basically a mix of Fighter and Rogue. Except they're probably better than either (IMO) and certainly better than multiclassing both.
Nothing stops you from using the Bard/Inquisitor/Ranger/Whatever mechanics and role-play it as a Rogue. Most characters don't walk around with a neon sign on their forehead telling the world what class they belong to. A character's fluff is what you make of it.
If shes(and u) arent opposed to Lawful Evil.. Or u dotn care to changer alignment prereqs the Red Mantiss Assassin Prc is really good.. Fighter/Rogue or Ranger/Rogue would be good entry combos.. Fighter wise i would go weapon master for access to weapon training at 3rd and that opens up gloves of dueling action.. Ranger i would go Guide so not to rely on FE and go two weapon style.. The prc has alot of flavor and with spells can be very good.. Who doesnt like duel wielding basically longswords with only a -2 penalty.. I would go to level 6 in ranger to avoid the imp twf req of 17 dex though.. 6 guide/4 rogue wouldnt be a bad combo.. i suppose a 15 dex and a belt could work too..
@Lemmy
I think he is set on rogue-4/fighter-4, but wants to know what archetypes he can apply retroactively and where he should go going forward. I don't think he is trying to completely recreate the character.
Then again, I could be wrong too...
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I would say next take 4 levels of monk so the forums explode with class rage and this then becomes a 600 page thread.
I would say next take 4 levels of monk so the forums explode with class rage and this then becomes a 600 page thread.
My name is Experiment 626, and I approve of this message.
Maneuver master will let you pwn punks with your free trip/dirty trick every round. MoMS will let you easily run amok, dragon style, which would play into the scout archetype charge mechanic.
Shadowdancer might make for another good path to go down, depending on stats and feats.
@Lemmy
I think he is set on rogue-4/fighter-4, but wants to know what archetypes he can apply retroactively and where he should go going forward. I don't think he is trying to completely recreate the character.
Then again, I could be wrong too...
You could be right, but reading the following lines of the OP:
My wife always plays Rogues, always for now over 15 years.
So she likes Rogues. A lot. Or at least doesn't particullary care for the other classes.
She also always complains when I (the GM) do more than one encounter every few gamedays because "Rogues suck in combat".
Unfortunatelly for her, Rogues are not very good in combat. She still loves the class, but finds it rather frustrating that it can't contribute too much in combat.
So I proposed to her a Fighter/Rogue and she has been pleased so far with the results, being able to do Rogueish things like Stealth and Disable Device and still pack a good punch in combat.
He came up with a possible solution. Grabbing some Fighter levels to boost her character's fighting prowess. Since this is better at combat than single-classed Rogue, she's satisfied. Because now she has a Rogue who can fight. So I'm guessing she sees her character as a Rogue who happens to have Fighter levels, not a Rogue/Fighter mix.
But mixing those two classes will mostly delay the progression of both and weaken the overall effectiveness of the character. So I suggested turning it into a Ranger, as the class has all the mechanical aspects she likes (lots skills and great combat capability).
She can still roleplay it as the sneaky/cunning/charming guy. She will just have better HP, saves and BAB. And more skill points too!
Hell, she can even grab the Trapper archetype and get all the trapfiding stuff instead of spell-casting!
Of course, I don't know the OP or his wife, so I could be mistaken.
A level or two of Shadowdancer could be a good fit. Hide in Plain Sight is a great complimentary ability for any rogue type character.
Unless she's into doing a lot of trappy stuff, ranger would have been perfect.
Of course she already has trapfinding now, so continuing on as a bard or a ranger wouldnt be a horrible Idea.
Sandman bard would keep some SA progression and also add spells to the character, as well as healing which would keep her going.
Ranger would keep the BAB going as well as augmenting with fighting style feats and the skirmisher (if she doesn't want spells) would add more rogue like tricks.
IF it were me...with this character, which seems to be a generalist. I would want to add some spell casting, while not losing my skill points. Ranger or rogue would do that nicely.
IF this a solo situation (your wife is the only player?) then Red mantis assassin would be tons of fun, add some supernat powers and spells and almost every RM is fighter/rogue before prestige-ing.
Running a solo with a RMA would be good fun and definitely keep the flow of stealthy fighter she has going on.
If she didn't like that for whatever reason. Bard, Ranger or Ninja, would be where i would take the rest of the levels.
Red mantis assassin sounds great, as the GM you could alter some of the pre reqs to fit your campaign.
Then again, depending on what her feats are already, adding magus to this build wouldnt be horrible.
Sorceror came to mind, eventually going arcane trickster, 4 levels of fighter there would make for interesting combat.
Add in some bard and go Dragon Disciple?
Otherwise taking some archetypes like CAD fighter and THUG rogue would make an entirely different character.
4 levels of fighter could be a mean additive to a knife master too.
My advice would be.. Either make it 3 levels of weapon master fighter or 5 levels of any fighter that gets weapon training at level 5.
The entire point of Fighter is unlocking the weapon training/Gloves of dueling for +3/3 to hit and damage. Whatever you else you get on the side is just gravy.
Once you've got gloves of dueling, keep leveling the rogue if that's what she wants to play. The gloves of dueling should keep her To-Hit relevant for quite awhile.
If your wife is able to accept re-flavorings, try other classes re-flavored as rogues. Look above at other posters for many good suggestions on how to do that.
~Also, Lore Warden Fighter helps a little bit with the "low skills" problem of fighters.
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The spell-less ranger loses the casting ability but gains fast movement and sneak attack. And a lot of nice tricks and feats too.
This might suit the lady.
Otherwise, as said before, Fighter/Rogue is the main path to the Red Mantis Assassin PrC
My wive always plays Rogues, always for now over 15 years.
She also always complains when I (the GM) do more than one encounter every few gamedays because "Rogues suck in combat".
So I proposed to her a Fighter/Rogue and she has been pleased so far with the results, being able to do Rogueish things like Stealth and Disable Device and still pack a good punch in combat.
So now there seems to be the time to add a little extra and this leads me to my question:
Apart from the options presented in Core and APG, are there any clever archetypes or prestige classes from sources like Ultimate Combat for a Human Rogue 4 / Fighter 4 that expand the "tough Rogue" kind of play? Because I am the GM and my wive hardly ever optimizes all the characters powers and abilities, I have no problems to add on features that, going by the rules, would have to be added from the beginning.
Thanks for your answers, I simply do not have time at the moment to look over all the sources and thus I appreciate all feedback.
What is her current build for her rogue/fighter?
Without further knowledge, I would suggest that she soon simply picks either rogue or fighter and stick with it from there. Rogue-fighter meshes very well together into a skirmishy style combatant but you at one point want to pick one class or the other to maximize either a) skill points and sneak attack damage or b) weapon mastery and combat feats. Although either way, I'd probably at least stick fighter out to level 5 for either Weapon Training or whatever replaces it in a given archetype.
Remember this is not 3.5 where Prestige Classes are "required" to have interesting abilities at high levels. You can get a very strong--often stronger--build sticking to base classes.
THAT said, if your heart is set on a PrC, if she happens to be a single weapon meleer type and the character has a high Intelligence, a Duelist may be fun for her. If you're retroactively applying archetypes, then swashbuckler rogue and free hand fighter compliment that PrC.
A dip into Shadowdancer can be fun. One of the most fun and effective (do not confuse this with "optimized" or "deals massive damage all the time") builds I've seen in my own campaigns was a character with a fighter/rogue/shadowdancer. He was a clever and creative player who was good with tactics and knew how to milk that combo for fun and profit. She needs to be of similar mind to see how it can work.
My thoughts may change depending upon the build so far.
Being able to SA all the time is key for a rogue.
Scout is good. Using fighter feats to get
Power Attack
Dazzling Display
Cornugan smash.
This makes any for you demoralize (-2 Attack/saves) also flatfooted to you. There now. She can sneak attack WITHOUT A FLANK.
If you wanna continue with fighter for feats?
Look at moonlight stalker. +2 to attack and damage!
Blur works.
Id go
Lore Warden 4 (free combat expertise)
Scout 4 for SA (for scouts charge)
Mix as required.
she gets rogue stuff, plenty of skills and a couple of feat chains that support SA.
Being able to SA all the time is key for a rogue.
Scout is good. Using fighter feats to get
Power Attack
Dazzling Display
Cornugan smash.This makes any for you demoralize (-2 Attack/saves) also flatfooted to you. There now. She can sneak attack WITHOUT A FLANK.
Don't you need Shatter Defenses in there somewhere? Or am I missing something?
In 20+ years of my experience, rogues do not suck in combat.
Rogues do not fight like warriors so of course no extra feats like fighters.
However they have sneak attack and debilitating effects like slowing, bleeding and so on.
I have taken down many foes with blade and bow using sneak attacks.
They do not suck.
Also, better to stick to one class or at most two classes to gain a decent progression in saves and BAB.
Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again.
Rogue/Fighter: keep it at two of them
Continue to play fighter if she likes more in your face combat style and more feats.
In 20+ years of my experience, rogues do not suck in combat.
Unless time-travel is involved, you haven't been playing Pathfinder for 20+ years. Believe it or not, different systems are different.
Also, better to stick to one class or at most two classes to gain a decent progression in saves and BAB.
Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again.
Wait, what? BAB and saves are two of the only things that aren't reset by multiclassing. It's all the other high-level class features that you miss.
In 20+ years of my experience, rogues do not suck in combat.
Personal experience is the worst judge of these things. You could be a better player than the others, for example. If you are good at making characters and everyone else is bad or even just average, you will outperform them regardless of class.
I will, however, agree that Rogues don't suck--no, Rogues are obsolete. They do nothing other classes can't do better. Vivisectionist Alchemists are better Sneak Attacks by miles. Bards are better skill characters plus they contribute more to the party overall with spells (or can deal more damage, either through Inspire Courage or as a Dervish), Inquisitors and Rangers are comparable skill characters that are significantly better in combat. Alchemists value Intelligence, so often have comparable skill ranks, too. Even just be a Ninja instead--they are literally just Rogues+ since they can be actually invisible and whatnot.
However they have sneak attack and debilitating effects like slowing, bleeding and so on.
I have taken down many foes with blade and bow using sneak attacks.
They do not suck.
Sneak Attack is a weak damage mechanic. It's only, effectively, 3.5 damage every two levels, and only in very specific circumstances. It doesn't multiply on a crit, and Rogues have trouble hitting, as they are the only 3/4 BAB class (other than monks) that don't have a built in mechanic to raise their attack bonuses.
Objectively, Rogues are a poor choice if you want to fight (obviously, just about everyone does this better), a poor choice if you specifically want to fight with Sneak Attack (Vivisectionist), a poor choice if you want to be highly skilled (Bards are better with skills), and a poor choice if you want to combine fighting and skills (Rangers and Inquisitors, and to a lesser extent Bards and Alchemists do this better).
Fighters are good combat characters, but borderline useless outside of fighting. Plus, multi-classing an even split is the worst possible way to multiclass.
So, if she wants skills and wants to be effective, I highly recommend just being a straight Urban Ranger (so she can still trapfind).
My other recommendations in no particular order:
Inquisitor (any sort)
Dawnflower Dervish Bard
Archaeologist Bard
Some other kind of Bard
Vivisectionist Alchemist
Ranger (if she doesn't care about Trapfinding, any archetype will do)
Ninja (at the very least, if you won't accept anything else)
MicMan, did we lose you?
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Wait, what? BAB and saves are two of the only things that aren't reset by multiclassing. It's all the other high-level class features that you miss.Also, better to stick to one class or at most two classes to gain a decent progression in saves and BAB.
Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again.
I think the concern was BAB mostly. Like taking one level of magus/inquisitor/bard which would slow BAB advancement by one Or taking a level of Ranger which would bump the Fort save, but delay will.
I'm having a hard time with my own Fighter/Rogue trying to find the optimal time to stop taking rogue levels for just that reason.
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-Knife Master Scout Rogue with Weapon Master or Two Weapon Warrior Fighter focused on Knives.
-Scout Rogue with Two Handed Fighter using the Feint and Vital Strike feats.
-Scout Rogue with Archer Fighter
A fun character i played a while back was a Ray Rogue. Rays have been considered weapons so 1 level of Crossblooded Sorcerer using the Efreeti Bloodline and Elemental (Earth) Bloodline with the Jolt, Ray of Frost, and Disrupt Undead spells along with 19 levels of Scout Rogue was quite effective. Using the Bloodline arcanas u can alter Jolt/Ray of Frost into a fire or acid spell giving u the ability to do a 1d3 fire, acid, cold, and electric spell any time (s)he wants in combat and thanks to Scout Rogue if (s)he moves at least 10ft the attack applies Sneak Attack for a decent 1d3(elemental) + 10d6(SA) attack or 1d6(Disrupt Undead) + 10d6(SA) attack.
A freehand fighter with scout rogue archetype would be fun, retro it, your the DM
Isn't there a third party class that works a lot like a fighter rogue? I think its a remake of the swashbuckler, I'll see if I can find it.
Edit:
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I'm having a hard time with my own Fighter/Rogue trying to find the optimal time to stop taking rogue levels for just that reason.Despite the "Rogues Suck" and other types of Rogue hate you can find around, I think they can be pretty sweet, and tough to multiclass out of it. You're always one level away from that next happy die, or a new trick.
Agreed. I'm thinking I might stop at 6 (Which will make him 6/6 for eyes of the 10). Evens out the save advancement, only lose one (more) point of BAB, 3d6 SA and a couple of rogue tricks. Lore Warden 14, 6 rogue would give him a +18 BAB for example.
In 20+ years of my experience, rogues do not suck in combat.Unless time-travel is involved, you haven't been playing Pathfinder for 20+ years. Believe it or not, different systems are different.
Wait, what? BAB and saves are two of the only things that aren't reset by multiclassing. It's all the other high-level class features that you miss.Also, better to stick to one class or at most two classes to gain a decent progression in saves and BAB.
Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again.
Love the avatar of yours.
I did not say Pathfinder for 20 years...meant D&D for 20+ yearsRogues sneak attack in both D&D and Pathfinder so they are similar.
With enough levels, you can get the high level features even if you multiclass, unfortunately you might have to play for a very long time to get them.
I did not say that the BAB and saves the ONLY things affected.
I just stated two well-known things in the comment, where did I say they are the ONLY two things?
Personal experience is the worst judge of these things. You could be a better player than the others, for example. If you are good at making characters and everyone else is bad or even just average, you will outperform them regardless of class.
My previous response here is based on the OP statement.
15 years is a long enough time to know the ins and outs of a rogue if the player only rolls rogues as PCs.Even if one plays 1 time per month in 15 years, that is 180 sessions of playing a rogue.
Plenty enough time to figure out to quit rogues if they suck or are obsolete.
Sneak Attack is a weak damage mechanic. It's only, effectively, 3.5 damage every two levels, and only in very specific circumstances. It doesn't multiply on a crit, and Rogues have trouble hitting, as they are the only 3/4 BAB class (other than monks) that don't have a built in mechanic to raise their attack bonuses.
True, however it still works and it still kills mobs.
There are more classes created in PF to make core classes seem not so good, and they all can be named...however base classes still work fine no matter what.If the GM was to say only allowed classes are in core rulebook, then your explanation is moot since the classes you compare are in the APG.
Not my intent to flame you or start something.
Just giving my 2 cents.
Thank you.
In 20+ years of my experience, rogues do not suck in combat.Unless time-travel is involved, you haven't been playing Pathfinder for 20+ years. Believe it or not, different systems are different.
Wait, what? BAB and saves are two of the only things that aren't reset by multiclassing. It's all the other high-level class features that you miss.Also, better to stick to one class or at most two classes to gain a decent progression in saves and BAB.
Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again.Love the avatar of yours.
I did not say Pathfinder for 20 years...meant D&D for 20+ years
Rogues sneak attack in both D&D and Pathfinder so they are similar.With enough levels, you can get the high level features even if you multiclass, unfortunately you might have to play for a very long time to get them.
I did not say that the BAB and saves the ONLY things affected.
I just stated two well-known things in the comment, where did I say they are the ONLY two things?
You missed her point.
"Jumping to new classes is like re-starting the BAB and save progression to 0 again." I think you may misunderstand how this works.
MicMan, did we lose you?
Sorry, sorry, sorry, been in a flurry of long meetings and short evenings.
Thanks for all the answers!
Yes, I know and agree that Ranger would have been a good fit but she wants Rogues. The only thing I could do talk her into was to add a bit of Fighter in order to not suck in her usual combat style (run up and hit things...).
Regarding your splendid suggestions:
I agree that Fighter 5 is probably the best mechanical option before going anwhere especially since her character is STR-based/TWF Rogue (we do 25 point buy, 20 for primary casters).
Thug / Knive Master seems a good fit and also Lore Master looks good. Nija, Shadow Dancer and Assassin are out because of flavor/RP reasons.
As her Dex is is only as high as it needs to be for TWF I guess the Swashbuckler type classes make no real sense.
Bard would be another good go but we already have a Bard and two Bards have no great synergy, also she hates Magic Users.
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I am actually making a Rogue for a new Campaign, the build I am going with is far from optimal but should be fun and capable of doing stuff in combat whilst being a pure Rogue (I don't really like Rogues but it is overdue I tried one out to see what I can make of one). I know you already have a build, but this may come in usein future if your wife is always Rogues but once to have an impact in combat
Thug/Scout Archetype
Str: 18
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
(we do a wierd 24 point buy but you cannot negative stats to min/max)
As you are a 25 point buy you can either boost Con to 14, or make another stat 13.
The Build is Half Orc for Falchion proficiency and the boost to Intimidation (should have an Intimidate of +15 at lvl 6 based on Orc, Class skill, 6 ranks, Str. More if you made Cha your 13 stat)
Get rid of Orc Ferocity and replace it with Sacred Tatoo (+1 all saves)
As you are GM and can house rule, I would suggest you be lenient with some Feat prereqs (the +1 BAB for Weapon Focus and Power Attack are a pain) Rogues have a hard enough time, preventing useful Feats at lvl 1 is just mean.
1. Power Attack
2.(Rogue Talent)Weapon Focus (It has a specific Talent name but thats what it does)
3. Dazzling Display
4. (Rogue Talent) Intimidating Prowess
5. Shatter Defenses (IF you are feeling generous, though it needs a BAB of +6 I think so you may not want to be that nice)
6. (Rogue Talent) Cornugan Smash
The idea of this build is to not need anyone else to help you Sneak Attack. Once you have Shatter Defenses and the Smash, you use the Scout ability to Sneak Attack in your opening attack, activate Power Attack to do a Free Intimidate, the Thug aspect extends this for a round so a min of 2 rounds they are intimidated which means your future attacks are all Sneak Attacks.
It means all your attacks should be 2d4+6(Str)+6(Power Attack)+4D6 (lvl 7 Sneak Attack).
Obviously you will lag behind Fighters etc. but you still feel capable of contributing, especially as beyond getting Sneak Attacks via Intimidate you are also giving the monsters -2 to Hit and Saves, and thanks to the Thugs other ability you also can cause Sickened, so you are a bit of a debuffer in combat in addition to holding your own.
It's not a perfect build for sure, just something I started thinking about yesterday and could serve as a good alternative to trying to find a way forward with a Fighter/Rogue mix
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I am actually making a Rogue for a new Campaign, the build I am going with is far from optimal but should be fun and capable of doing stuff in combat whilst being a pure Rogue (I don't really like Rogues but it is overdue I tried one out to see what I can make of one). I know you already have a build, but this may come in usein future if your wife is always Rogues but once to have an impact in combat
Build snipped
This might (my theroy craft sucks) work better as a Lore Warden 2/Rogue X
LW1: power attack, WF
LW2: combat expertise (freebie) dazzling display
Rouge 1: Intimidatng prowess
R2: Cornugun smash
R3+ whatever.
That gives you fewer skill points, and puts off evasion, but makes you tougher at the low levels (and I think avoids house rules.) IT also opens up improved dirty trick.