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So, if you're starting at level 15 a fighter could just take a half dozen critical feats?
No, nothing else that's awarded at a level up in each class' Class Table can be put on lay away. You can't delay your Hit Dice, BAB, or saves can you? Say I'm making an 11th level character and I take 2 levels of barbarian, then 8 of sorcerer and then 1 level in Dragon Disciple. Can I wait to roll my sorcerer Hit Die until I snag that level in DD and then roll a fist full of d12s instead of d6's?
Anyway, my opinion aside, here's what I found in the PRD.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
I bolded the part I think is relevant. Class abilities are integrated at the time the level is gained, not later on down the line.
Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities
That's nice in concept but not always possible.
Take, for instance, the Qinggong Monk. At 10th level you can select Wind Stance as your 10th level Ki Power. The only problem with this is that to gain this ability, the Qinggong Monk is meant to replace his 10th level Ki Power with an equivalent level monk class ability. The monk class does not have a 10th level class ability to replace. The closest options listed for this archetype are wholeness of body (7th) or diamond body (11th).
Given these chasms in the rules, I have a hard time criticising the OP for the flexible interpretation in their character build.
Third, integrate all of the level's class abilitiesThat's nice in concept but not always possible.
Take, for instance, the Qinggong Monk. At 10th level you can select Wind Stance as your 10th level Ki Power. The only problem with this is that to gain this ability, the Qinggong Monk is meant to replace his 10th level Ki Power with an equivalent level monk class ability. The monk class does not have a 10th level class ability to replace. The closest options listed for this archetype are wholeness of body (7th) or diamond body (11th).
I can't see why the Qinggong Monk changes this. No, it isn't possible to choose Wind Stance at lvl 10, so you'll have to wait until lvl 11, where you got something to trade for it.
It might be bad design, to set a lvl requirement that isn't possible to fulfill anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that you need to choose your abilities when you get a level.
I can't see why the Qinggong Monk changes this. No, it isn't possible to choose Wind Stance at lvl 10, so you'll have to wait until lvl 11, where you got something to trade for it.
It might be bad design, to set a lvl requirement that isn't possible to fulfill anyway, but it doesn't change the fact that you need to choose your abilities when you get a level.
This problem for the Qinggong also occurs at levels 6,8,14,16 and 18. Yes, bad design indeed. If we are going by RAW, then I have to agree with you and that you need to choose your abilities when you get a level. This is especially true for PFS play. If it is a homebrew campaign, given the inconsistencies found in the rules, I wouldn't have a problem with this.
I would also say that in general, feats, skills, abilities MUST be chosen at the time your character levels, and can not be saved.everyone seems to agree that saving powers are not allow. However, where is it written in the RAW? particularly when you are starting a character at a certain level beyond 1st.
Try this thread; especially the brilliant posts by Roberta Yang: Here and Here.
All elements of leveling up have to be settled at once, you can't "bank" feat slots, or any other mechanic that's resolved during leveling.He's talking abouy waiting until later to select a feat. Say you gain a feat at 4th level but he doesn't want to take it to until a later time.Actually, the whole "prerequisite" part is the RAW, of not allowing one to select a feat, or power, or whatever, that they do not meet the prerequisites for.
Just because you could meet the prerequisites in the future, doesn't mean you meet them at the time you select them.
prove it...
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prove it...All elements of leveling up have to be settled at once, you can't "bank" feat slots, or any other mechanic that's resolved during leveling.He's talking abouy waiting until later to select a feat. Say you gain a feat at 4th level but he doesn't want to take it to until a later time.Actually, the whole "prerequisite" part is the RAW, of not allowing one to select a feat, or power, or whatever, that they do not meet the prerequisites for.
Just because you could meet the prerequisites in the future, doesn't mean you meet them at the time you select them.
The Burden of Proof is upon you.
The rules state what you do when you level up, including taking feats. There should be no expectation that the rules must spell out all the things you can't do!
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I'd suggest starting a FAQ rules thread, or trying the "Ask James Jacobs" thread, for this one.
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prove it...
When discussing rules in the terms 'Nowhere in the rules does it *NOT* say that I can save my feats and spend them when I want to!' is that that falls down the slippery slope of playing a game where only the expressly forbidden is denied.
'No where in the rules does it say I can't...' leads to ridiculous extremes fairly quickly. Therefore, by RAW interpretations, you limit yourself to what the rules actually say you CAN do. RAW interpretations are not a permissive rule set.
If you want to discuss Rules as Intended, I think it is clear that the existence of mechanics that allow you to retrain feats/relearn spells/swap class features clearly show that the intent is that you can get better/different abilities later, but you pick your class abilities as soon as you get them. Otherwise, as described, you get rogues that never take rogue talents, fighters that don't take any feats until the criticals are opened up, etc etc.
But neither of things really matters with your barbarian. Your OP was that your GM claimed the build was 'too strong' not 'too Cheaty Mc Cheaterson', so there's little reason to nitpick and error-check *this* build. Ask your GM what the specific issues are, and adjust accordingly. Your GM may be perfectly happy with saving up feats and spending them at 9th, but just hate the Invulnerable Rager archetype. I don't think trying to game the rules is going to get you what you want.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats. For more information on when you gain new feats and ability score increases, see Table: Character Advancement and Level-Dependent Bonuses.
--Character Advancement
Notice how it says "add new skills and feats" not "add new skills and feats or, if you wish, you can decide to hold onto them for a subsequent level" or something similar. Notice how it says that you "integrate all of the level's class abilities" not "blah blah blah and you can keep the slots open for later levels".
Nowhere does it say that you are allowed to "bank" them. Nowhere. There is nowhere that even hints that's an option. If that's what your group does, that's great, but that's not what the rules say. There are a lot of things in Pathfinder that aren't specifically spelled out. Like the dead condition. Sure, you're dead, but there's no place under the dead condition that says you can't continue playing as your spirit and take actions normally. You're not unconscious anymore, you're dead! It doesn't specifically say that your spirit doesn't spontaneously become a god, does it? Well, why do you assume that isn't the case?
Freakin' ninjas everywhere, man...
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prove it...All elements of leveling up have to be settled at once, you can't "bank" feat slots, or any other mechanic that's resolved during leveling.He's talking abouy waiting until later to select a feat. Say you gain a feat at 4th level but he doesn't want to take it to until a later time.Actually, the whole "prerequisite" part is the RAW, of not allowing one to select a feat, or power, or whatever, that they do not meet the prerequisites for.
Just because you could meet the prerequisites in the future, doesn't mean you meet them at the time you select them.
. . . . . . . . .
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If its any consolation, I won't allow the invulnerable rager archetype at all. It's the dervish dancer of barbarians, might as well be the base class, over used.
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If its any consolation, I won't allow the invulnerable rager archetype at all. It's the dervish dancer of barbarians, might as well be the base class, over used.
I ban all the monk archetypes for the same reason, they're too good compared to the monk base class. Also I cast Time Stop.
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I am slowly ticking off the list of all the classes and archetypes I'm not supposed to play out of fear that I will run into one of you at some big convention and you'll just punch me in the face the minute you see my character sheet.
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I am slowly ticking off the list of all the classes and archetypes I'm not supposed to play out of fear that I will run into one of you at some big convention and you'll just punch me in the face the minute you see my character sheet.
Just a punch in the face? What about the tolchuck to the yarbles?
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Just a punch in the face? What about the tolchuck to the yarbles?
I am slowly ticking off the list of all the classes and archetypes I'm not supposed to play out of fear that I will run into one of you at some big convention and you'll just punch me in the face the minute you see my character sheet.
Man at least buy me a lobster dinner first srsly
OK BOYS AND GALS LETS END THIS ONE AS I THINK THE ISSUES HAVE BEEN BEAT TO DEATH.
I think he's hoping they're not that vindictive.
Either that or he's protected.
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OK BOYS AND GALS LETS END THIS ONE AS I THINK THE ISSUES HAVE BEEN BEAT TO DEATH.
But what's wrong with horse pate?
Looks pretty tame to me.
I just build a level 8 barbarian for a friend and it would kick the ass out of that level 9 one.
It gets to 29 STR, 22 CON and 134 HP, not to mention crazy high save with superstition and the favored class bonus from human on it.
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Yeah well mine goes to 11
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That extra five points of damage reduction they get by twentieth level already completely breaks the game, and resistance 6 to one element is just icing on the cake. And a permanent limited endure elements effect? Madness I say.
Also I cast Time Stop again because I have six ninth-level spell slots so I can do that pretty much as often as I want.
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The OP needs to correct all those mistakes. What I would suggest to him/her. is to build the character again from the ground up. Start at level 1, then increment it one level at a time and make sure everything selected has the correct prerequisites. It is easy to make mistakes like there are here when you just look at it and think, "I have X rage powers to choose and Y feats to choose" and just start picking stuff based on the end point BAB and such.
Also, you can save up your rage powers and feat slots. Each one can be thought of as hard-coded with a BAB and Class Level.
Looks pretty tame to me.
I just build a level 8 barbarian for a friend and it would kick the ass out of that level 9 one.
It gets to 29 STR, 22 CON and 134 HP, not to mention crazy high save with superstition and the favored class bonus from human on it.
Hey ladies, You care to test this theory in a Conflict PVP match?
I would be happy to GM a Match and will report the results to the thread?
Roll20.net?
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TWO PCs ENTER, ONE PC LEAVES
WHO RULES BARTERTOWN?!
Also, you can save up your rage powers and feat slots. Each one can be thought of as hard-coded with a BAB and Class Level.
I'm going to guess that the necessary 't got typoed off here, as the second sentence suggests it and thus is in conflict with the first as written >_>
Yep, I am down for Conflict Match vs Lauraliane and BTW: I rule BARTERTOWN!
Make a gnome colorsprayer deck it out to hit undead and watch the DM cry as you give every save or die spells with the dual cursed oracle making them roll to save twice against a crazy DC.
Also, you can save up your rage powers and feat slots. Each one can be thought of as hard-coded with a BAB and Class Level.I'm going to guess that the necessary 't got typoed off here, as the second sentence suggests it and thus is in conflict with the first as written >_>
I read it as "you can leave the feat 'empty', but when you choose something for it, it must meet the BAB, class level, etc. limitations that you would have had at that level."
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I read it as "you can leave the feat 'empty', but when you choose something for it, it must meet the BAB, class level, etc. limitations that you would have had at that level."Also, you can save up your rage powers and feat slots. Each one can be thought of as hard-coded with a BAB and Class Level.I'm going to guess that the necessary 't got typoed off here, as the second sentence suggests it and thus is in conflict with the first as written >_>
Yes, that is what he meant.
He's still wrong, though.
That barbarian looks pretty tame/weak to me, I could easily build one that would put it to shame. Not sure what your GM's problem with it is, I'd just ask for clarification from the GM as to why it was rejected. Maybe the GM just doesn't want that kind of character in his campaign as far as flavor goes, but it should be sent out to everyone what books/races/classes are accepted and what house-rules are in the game.
I always say instead of asking the peanut gallery (the forums) about why something was done, ask your GM and/or group first to get it resolved internally. It's just good form to keep the communication open in your group and it prevents future problems.
I won't get into the secondary argument about feats that everyone seems to be pretty amped up about.
What the heck is wrong with the Invulernable Rager?
Spellcasters still rule higher levels, and nothing in the archetype "breaks" the game.
it's not the high level issues, it's the low to mid level issues.
it's not the high level issues, it's the low to mid level issues.
Ah, yes, like at twelfth level, when the Invulnerable Rager gets DR 6/-, which... an Armor Master could get seven levels earlier.
What issues are you talking about exactly?
So, a Martial class get a bit shine time before the Casters take over?
That's a problem?
no the problem is with that archetype allowed, you see the same thing over and over again.
So it's just a retired jersey.
It seems to me a the DM I can choose not to allow anything I see fit. Like Time stop.
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So, a Martial class get a bit shine time before the Casters take over?
That's a problem?
no the problem is with that archetype allowed, you see the same thing over and over again.
So it's just a retired jersey.
It seems to me a the DM I can choose not to allow anything I see fit. Like Time stop.
This is the most ridiculous reasoning I've ever heard.
Something popular, so it should be banned? I guess breathing and using the restroom properly should be banned, too, because heavens forbid anyone do what everyone else is doing.
You are the oldest hipster I have ever met, and that'd be impressive if it wasn't so sad.
Yeah, I don't get the "as the DM, I am taking away the popular options, as I feel they are too popular".
What next? Power Attack? That's waaaaay too popular. Banning it.
actually not that many people I play with take power attack unless they are trying to get to cleave.
We stopped point buy because the stats were literally always the same.
What's even more ridiculous is "YOU CAN'T DO THAT at your table, I should have a say on how YOU play YOUR GAME!"
stupendously silly, congrats.
Furthermore, YOU are the one who showed up with the "hahah, I don't allow this in my games either!" announcement. If you don't like dealing with questions as to why, you probably shouldn't post in the first place.