So I sat down for an on-shot game where the wanted 9th level characters. I presented the below character, but the GM rejected it as too powerful. I can't find anything in this stat block that's not legal!
Can someone PLEASE tell what's the problem with this character!
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Male Half-Orc Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 9
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision, Scent; Perception +13
DEFENSE
AC 16, touch 10, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex, -2 rage)
hp 132 (9d12+63)
Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +8
Defensive Abilities DR 7/—; 14/lethal; Resist fire 2, Extreme Endurance (Fire)
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Greatclub +13/+8 (1d10+7/20/x2) or
Greatclub (with Shillelagh Oil) +13/+8 (3d8+8/20/x2) or
Greatclub (with Shillelagh Oil + Power Attack) +11/+6 (3d8+16/20/x2) or Axe, Orc Double +13/+8 (1d8+6/20/x3)
Ranged Longbow, Comp. (Str +4) +12/+7 (1d8+4/20/x3)
Special Attacks Elemental Rage, Lesser (1/rage), attack deals +1D6 energy damage, Scent, Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) x3
TACTICS
Base Statistics When not raging, the Orc has AC 18 touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+4 armor, +2 shield, +2 Dex); hp 101; Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +6; Melee Greatclub +10/+5 (1d10+3/20/x2) or Greatclub (with Shillelagh Oil) +11/+6 (3d8+4/20/x2); Ranged Longbow, Comp. (Str +4) +10/+5 (1d8+2/20/x3); Str 14, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 8; CMB +11; CMD 23; Skills Swim -1, Climb -1
STATISTICS
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +13; CMD 23
Feats Extra Rage Power, Improved Iron Will (1/day), Iron Will, Power Attack -3/+6, Raging Vitality
Skills Acrobatics +14 (+18 jump), Climb +1, Escape Artist -1, Fly -1, Intimidate +10, Perception +13, Ride -1, Stealth -1, Survival +6, Swim +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ Fast Movement +10 (Ex), Increase Damage Reduction (Ex), Increase Damage Reduction (Ex), Increase Damage Reduction (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day), Rage (24 rounds/day) (Ex), War Paint of the Terrible Visage
Combat Gear +1 Wooden Armor, Arrows (20), Axe, Orc Double, +1 Buckler, Greatclub, Longbow, Comp. (Str +4); Other Gear Oil of Shillelagh, Manacles, Potion of Barkskin +5, Smokestick, War Paint of the Terrible Visage (2 uses)
Tactics:
The centerpiece of Rager's attack is his 40’ movement rate, allowing him to cross 80’ of terrain in a single round. He always uses this speed to attempt to get the jump on his enemies while they are still prepping for the combat. Because of this strategy, the only preparation he normally allows himself is to apply oil of shillelagh to his weapon...
Doesn't look particularly overpowered to me, for a level 9 barbarian. Maybe you should ask your GM what makes him deem it that way.
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Shouldn't you be asking your DM?
So I sat down for an on-shot game where the wanted 9th level characters. I presented the below character, but the GM rejected it as too powerful. I can't find anything in this stat block that's not legal!
Can someone PLEASE tell what's the problem with this character!
Considering what you write, your GM's concern isn't legality but power level.
You should probably ask him, which parts of the character (he think) is too much. The two of you are likely able to find some middle ground.Personally I might object to a character investing heavily in single use items, such as a cl 12 potion of barkskin, knowing it is a one-shot. I am not sure oils of shillelagh is readily availiable either.
Depending on what I've got planned, having a DR 7/- guy might just become too strong.
Alternatively, an objection to a certain character might be due it possibly outshining other characters.
In the end, trying to guess your GMs motivation is nothing but guesses, and asking him would be better.
On a different note, I believe the math in your Offensive block, is a bit off.
- Firstly, with a two handed weapon, your Power attack is: -3/+9.
- You don't seem to have counted the rage bonusses to str in.
- Your to hit when raging should be: 9 bab + 6 str = 15/10. Adding 1 for shillelagh and removing 3 from PA to: 13/8.
- Your damage w. rage/shillelagh/PA is: 3d8 + 19 (9 str + 9 PA + 1 enh)
He probably just thought DR 7/- was too much. It isn't, but go figure.
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Defensive Abilities DR 7/—; 14/non-lethal;
Maybe you forgot this word?
And maybe he was planning on using HORDES OF MINIONS that would hit you but bounce off.
You don't seem to have counted the rage bonusses to str in.
The original strength of this character is 14. Adding + 4 for rage = 18. I think the rest of your points are wrong because of this, correct?
Defensive Abilities DR 7/—; 14/non-lethal;
Maybe you forgot this word?
And maybe he was planning on using HORDES OF MINIONS that would hit you but bounce off.
Any creature that is not capable of dealing much more than 7 damage per hit is likely so low level that it would have trouble hitting a level 9 character with appropriate AC anyway. My players are level 6 and all have AC 22 or better. I had them fight hordes of orcs and then zombies and skeletons in the first few sessions. The only one to ever get hit by any of those was the druid after wildshaping. And zombies and orcs already should be perfectly capable of dealing more than 7 damage consistently.
Defensive Abilities DR 7/—; 14/non-lethal;
Maybe you forgot this word?
[/qoAnd maybe he was planning on using HORDES OF MINIONS that would hit you but bounce off.
Invulnerability (Ex)
At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.
the 14/lethal is correct. Correct?
You don't seem to have counted the rage bonusses to str in.
The original strength of this character is 14. Adding + 4 for rage = 18. I think the rest of your points are wrong because of this, correct?
Yeah, I hadn't realized the rage bonus was included in the str score. So the math should be fine (apart from Greatclub (with Shillelagh) is actually +14/+9, but that is minor).
by the way: the GM stated this stat block was wrong but needed to move on before telling me exactly what the issue was. I think, like others, he thought the build was too much.
As a GM the first things that spring to mind when looking at this stat block are the following:
AC is low. Cool. Going to be able to hit this guy every time.
DR is moderate, not too extreme, so while I'm hitting him, he's not going to take too much damage from each attack. Cool.
Stat block references to Oil of Shillelagh on weapon (note, character has 1 Oil of Shillelagh, which lasts 1 minute, so that extreme damage is only for 1 fight). If I were him I'd save it for the BBEG. Normal damage, even with Power Attack, isn't too extreme.
Appropriate tactics to challenge this character: single big hitters; many moderate hitters with decent critical threat range. Minions are trash against him and will present little to no challenge.
Conclusion: character is viable as long as fights are mixed up.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex):. The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.You took it three times at level 9.
So this has always been debated at my home gaming table. Is there anything in the rules that says Powers must be taken immediately when the power slot becomes available. Or can a character "save" their power slots, go without the powers for several levels and take the multiple powers as a collection like this character has?
I think your character looks weak. Str 14 is really low for a barbarian, at least around my table. Your AC is also low relative to your level, so you'll get hit almost every time (especially if the enemy is targeting your abysmal touch AC). Your only plus is that you've got a lot of hit points, and some DR (more on that below).
I am of the opinion that you cannot save your "Rage Power Slots" until a later level, thus you would have only had the opportunity to take your "Improved Damage Reduction" power once (at 8th level). However, if you took your "Extra Rage" feat at 9th level, then you could have picked it up an additional time, for a total of DR 6/- (12 versus non-lethal damage).
That said, your other defenses look rather low, too. You spent none of your wealth on improving your saving throws, which are suffering. If you were at my table, I'd exploit your weaknesses, which means you should expect to be rolling some Reflex saves.
In short, this build is not overpowered. I'm under the impression that your DM doesn't know much about the game, or feels your particular character is geared too strongly towards the challenge he had in mind.
Nit Pick: You forgot to include (human) in your racial subtype. A half-orc is considered both "orc" and "human" for effects related to race.
When you level up, you immediately gain everything you gain at that level. You can't save your feats or rage powers for later.
Saving feat slots and having way more consumables than normal seems kind of cheesy but even with those advantages this character is nowhere near overpowered.
When I calculated your hit points I got 104, not 132 (12 + [7 x 8 ] + [4 x 9 ]). This is not including the +6 bonus to CON for raging (due to your "Raging Vitality" feat). When you figure that in, your hit points become 131 (still one shy of your total).
I'm also having a hard time figuring out where you got your numbers for your damage. Un-buffed you should be at 1d10+6 (4+2=6=1.5 x STR) with your greatclub. Unless I am mistaken, that additional +1 is unaccounted for. In addition, your attack bonus with your bow should be +11/+6 (+9 BAB, +2 DEX). There's an additional +1 unaccounted for.
When I calculated your CMD I got 25 (10 BASE, +9 BAB, +4 STR, +2 DEX). I don't think you suffer a penalty from raging (as you do with AC), which is probably how you got 23. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Worth mentioning is the fact that your AC is going to be even worse when you're attacking, since you're using a two-handed weapon. You will be losing your shield bonus to AC from your buckler.
Question: Did you apply a favored class bonus, and if so, to what? Skills perhaps (I haven't the time to calculate them)...
So this has always been debated at my home gaming table. Is there anything in the rules that says Powers must be taken immediately when the power slot becomes available. Or can a character "save" their power slots, go without the powers for several levels and take the multiple powers as a collection like this character has?
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex):. The barbarian's damage reduction increases by 1/—. This increase is always active while the barbarian is raging. A barbarian can select this rage power up to three times. Its effects stack. A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this rage power.You took it three times at level 9.
Yes you must be able to fulfill the prerequisites of any new feat or class option, at the level it became available to take it.
The only ways I see you of getting 7 DR at 9th level is to be 8 levels of Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) and take 1 level of fighter at 9th to get 2 feats. So 8th level rage power in Increased Damage Reduction and 2 feats of Extra Rage power for Increased Damage Reduction.
Another way is picking the Dragon Totem rage powers at 6th and 8th then grabbing 1 level of Increased Damage reduction with the 9th level feat using extra rage power. You also need Animal Fury and Intimidating Glare. You get to add 2/- DR at 8th level so you get the DR.
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Shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs.Huh. This would be the first time I've seen someone say this. Where are you getting this from?
I agree with Azten. Shillelagh specifies a club or quarterstaff, which are specific weapons in the equipment list. Even if it worked on a greatclub, the spell sets the damage based on the size of the target:
a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6[/i]
As to the OP, I suggest you talk to your GM and find out exactly what about the character is bothering them. Find out why they objected and maybe you can fix it.
Shillelagh doesn't work on greatclubs.Huh. This would be the first time I've seen someone say this. Where are you getting this from?I agree with Azten. Shillelagh specifies a club or quarterstaff, which are specific weapons in the equipment list. Even if it worked on a greatclub, the spell sets the damage based on the size of the target:
a Small club or quarterstaff so transmuted deals 1d8 points of damage, a Medium 2d6, and a Large 3d6[/i]
As to the OP, I suggest you talk to your GM and find out exactly what about the character is bothering them. Find out why they objected and maybe you can fix it.
You could put it on a large club and wield it two-handed. You have to take all the to-hit penalties for wielding a weapon that isn't made for your size though.
The only ways I see you of getting 7 DR at 9th level is to be 8 levels of Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) and take 1 level of fighter at 9th to get 2 feats. So 8th level rage power in Increased Damage Reduction and 2 feats of Extra Rage power for Increased Damage Reduction.
Fighters bonus feat slots can only be used for Combat feats. Extra Rage Power (APG) is not a Combat feat. Which makes sense, as the Fighter class doesn't use rage powers. :)
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This is like a tootsie-pop thread because essentially it is finding out how many forum posts it takes to get to the delicious chewy center of one clear answer from the actual GM.
ONE
TWOOOOO
THREEEEEE
*CRUNCH*
Oh man I see that owl in my dreams
The only ways I see you of getting 7 DR at 9th level is to be 8 levels of Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) and take 1 level of fighter at 9th to get 2 feats. So 8th level rage power in Increased Damage Reduction and 2 feats of Extra Rage power for Increased Damage Reduction.Fighters bonus feat slots can only be used for Combat feats. Extra Rage Power (APG) is not a Combat feat. Which makes sense, as the Fighter class doesn't use rage powers. :)
Good point, I just assumed Extra Rage was a combat feat but now that you meantion it that really doesn't make sense. So only 1 way to do it then.
If I were GM, I would limit items and character choices to those that would make sense if it were NOT a one shot adventure. Basically, you can't use funky single use items, so no oil of barkskin +5.
I would also say that in general, feats, skills, abilities MUST be chosen at the time your character levels, and can not be saved.
I also read the DR 14/lethal wrong, which I think is a common mistake.
Once these minor things are fixed, I really would have no problem with this character in one of my games. Ok, I wouldn't like the dumped Int and cha, but that is a personal thing, not a rule thing.
30 AC at level 12 is not... high..?
It is a barbarian, what else can you expect? Is a high ac barbarian even possibleAs a GM the first things that spring to mind when looking at this stat block are the following:
AC is low. Cool. Going to be able to hit this guy every time.
There's a difference between a high AC, a good AC and a low AC (my own terms). Since a CR 3 opponent is targeted at +4-+6 attack bonus, this guy is going to get hit even by hordes of low-CR enemies.
It is a barbarian, what else can you expect? Is a high ac barbarian even possible
Armored Hulk archetype allows for a plenty high AC barbarian. Not quite as good as a fighter, but still with the correct feats and rage powers, you can have a solid AC.
Barbarians can wear medium armor and use shields. While raging they suffer a -2 penalty to AC, but that's easily made up for, especially when spells and potions are considered.
Just because full plate is better, the breastplate is not made irrelevant. It's still one of the best armors in the game.
Also, as drbuzzard has pointed out, there's even an archetype for heavy armor barbarians.
I would also say that in general, feats, skills, abilities MUST be chosen at the time your character levels, and can not be saved.
everyone seems to agree that saving powers are not allow. However, where is it written in the RAW? particularly when you are starting a character at a certain level beyond 1st.
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The message boards are not the place of appeal for a decision you don't like from your GM.
First, I am asking for a statblock review. I am not appealing for anything from anyone.
Second, we are not playing in your campaign, you are not the god of forums, so please stop telling folks what then can or cannot do here.
When I calculated your hit points I got 104, not 132 (12 + [7 x 8 ] + [4 x 9 ]). This is not including the +6 bonus to CON for raging (due to your "Raging Vitality" feat). When you figure that in, your hit points become 131 (still one shy of your total).
+ 12 hit point for 1st
+ 48 hit points from the other 8 level using an average of 6 hp.+ 9 from favored bonus
+ 63 from Con + "Raging Vitality"
equals 132 .
His hit points seem right
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Actually, the whole "prerequisite" part is the RAW, of not allowing one to select a feat, or power, or whatever, that they do not meet the prerequisites for.
Just because you could meet the prerequisites in the future, doesn't mean you meet them at the time you select them.
He's talking abouy waiting until later to select a feat. Say you gain a feat at 4th level but he doesn't want to take it to until a later time.
Actually, the whole "prerequisite" part is the RAW, of not allowing one to select a feat, or power, or whatever, that they do not meet the prerequisites for.
Just because you could meet the prerequisites in the future, doesn't mean you meet them at the time you select them.
But I did meet the prerequisites when I took the rage power. I was 9th level the prerequisite says you need to be 8th.
Anyway, I have a workaround which results in a better situation.
@ConflictRoleplaying: I still get 104, plus an additional 27 temporary hit points while raging. This is not including a favored class bonus.
1st level: 12+4
2nd-9th level: 8(7+4)
While raging he gains (3x9) temporary hit points.
Altogether that's 131 (140 with favored class).
But I did meet the prerequisites when I took the rage power. I was 9th level the prerequisite says you need to be 8th.
Anyway, I have a workaround which results in a better situation.
So, by this reasoning a Rogue could just sandbag all their rogue talents at levels 2, 4, 6, and 8, and then at level 10 suddenly acquire 5 advanced talents?
I don't think that's how that's supposed to work.
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But I did meet the prerequisites when I took the rage power. I was 9th level the prerequisite says you need to be 8th.
Anyway, I have a workaround which results in a better situation.
So, by this reasoning a Rogue could just sandbag all their rogue talents at levels 2, 4, 6, and 8, and then at level 10 suddenly acquire 5 advanced talents?
I don't think that's how that's supposed to work.
I agree for the most part. However, if the GM say you're starting off at 9th level then I think its OK.
More importantly, I think we are looking for some proof in the RAW.
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If there was some kind of "feat saving" option, then wouldn't that overshadow things like the Fighter's feat retraining options?
With no RAW support for this "feat saving" or "Power saving", you should assume they don't exist.
It's not worth fighting, especially if you are trying to win your DM over.
I would have to agree with "blackbloodtroll" on this issue. At least, that would be my interpretation of the rules. Your group is always free to decide otherwise.