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Can I "save" a feat until I have the prereqs?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Does it say anywhere in the rules that you lose a feat if you don't pick it at the level you acquire it?

The reason I ask is there are two feats I'd like, but they will both become available at level 11. would it be possible to go without picking a feat at level 9 and take BOTH at level 11?

I figure unless the rules contravened this, it makes sense because I'm giving up the benefit of the feat for a considerable period of time... a price to pay for the later benefit.

The feats I want to get at 11th are "Discordant Voice" and "Divine interference" for my Oracle1/Bard10... So if you can think of a way to get either of these feats BEFORE level 11 that would also solve my problem... and would be even better because I wouldn't have to go 9 levels without a feat.

-V

Sczarni

I think we went over this once before and determined there is nothing, per RAW, that prevents this. If you look at the implications of saving feat selections, however, it becomes clear they are intended to be taken immediately. Critical Focus and it's subsequent critical effect feats are a good example. By saving feats you could gain multiple critical feats all at a level where you should only have one.

Per RAW, no, nothing is stopping you.


Corren28 wrote:

I think we went over this once before and determined there is nothing, per RAW, that prevents this. If you look at the implications of saving feat selections, however, it becomes clear they are intended to be taken immediately. Critical Focus and it's subsequent critical effect feats are a good example. By saving feats you could gain multiple critical feats all at a level where you should only have one.

Per RAW, no, nothing is stopping you.

Link?

Advancing Your Character wrote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.

Seems to me you can't. You need to add your feats as part of the level up process.

If your logic is correct, you could save all of the features you get when leveling up until later. This would have implications for creating characters above first level (amongst other things).

Sczarni

We've been over all this already in another thread. Same exact argument. There's nothing in the RAW stating you must take the feats as soon as they're available.

Whale_Cancer wrote:
If your logic is correct, you could save all of the features you get when leveling up until later. This would have implications for creating characters above first level (amongst other things).
Corren28 wrote:
If you look at the implications of saving feat selections, however, it becomes clear they are intended to be taken immediately

Believe me, I know. I ran this idea past my own group, who are phenomenally adept at pushing that limit of bending the rules but not breaking them, and some of the builds they came up with are downright scary for a GM.


Corren28 wrote:

We've been over all this already in another thread. Same exact argument. There's nothing in the RAW stating you must take the feats as soon as they're available.

Whale_Cancer wrote:
If your logic is correct, you could save all of the features you get when leveling up until later. This would have implications for creating characters above first level (amongst other things).
Corren28 wrote:
If you look at the implications of saving feat selections, however, it becomes clear they are intended to be taken immediately
Believe me, I know. I ran this idea past my own group, who are phenomenally adept at pushing that limit of bending the rules but not breaking them, and some of the builds they came up with are downright scary for a GM.

The section I quoted gives you steps you must take in order when leveling up. They include selecting any feats. This is something in the RAW stating you must take them right away.


If it was covered in the other thread, what point disabuses the authority of Whale_Cancer's argument?

If it says picking feats is the last step in a leveling-up process... then it would stand to reason that before you can progress to level 2, you need to add the feats and skills from level 1!

So what in the rules convinces you otherwise? I don't WANT to see it that way, but it seems to me that's EXACTLY what RAW is stating -- you must take the feats as soon as they are available, or you can't proceed to the next level, because you haven't finished the last step of the previous level.

Sczarni

No, it's a step by step guide to make sure you don't miss anything vital. There's nothing there stating you absolutely have to take the feat right there and then. Like I said, been over it and over it in another thread.

RAW, yes you can. RAI, absolutely not. Terrible idea. Don't do it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you start saving feats for later the GM can roll up NPCs that have done the same. It won't be pretty...

[Edit] I should also add that this is what I've come to consider an oversight. I'm in your guys' camp 100%. Feats are not meant to be saved and the wording here is just vague enough to be open to interpretation. There are a lot of rules like this in PF. As I said, RAI, absolutely not!

Silver Crusade

The rules state when you advance a level (that gives a feat) you "add" (not reserve) a Feat.

However, as a GM, I'm not merciless to players, especially those playing a class they've never taken before. I'll have some leniency in the first few levels to changing feats until the class becomes familiar, but beyond that, a character doesn't just have an ephiphany of 10 feats suddenly thrust upon them.


Corren28 wrote:

No, it's a step by step guide to make sure you don't miss anything vital. There's nothing there stating you absolutely have to take the feat right there and then. Like I said, been over it and over it in another thread.

RAW, yes you can. RAI, absolutely not. Terrible idea. Don't do it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you start saving feats for later the GM can roll up NPCs that have done the same. It won't be pretty...

[Edit] I should also add that this is what I've come to consider an oversight. I'm in your guys' camp 100%. Feats are not meant to be saved and the wording here is just vague enough to be open to interpretation. There are a lot of rules like this in PF. As I said, RAI, absolutely not!

It's not really helpful to say it is covered in another thread unless you link the thread. We obviously disagree with the assertion you've made. If the rules say to 'make sure' you do something, it is not an optional step.

While there are many vague and outright silly rules in PF, I don't believe this is one of them.

Sczarni

Do a search on the forums for "save feat" and pick any of the seeming hundreds that have asked this very same question. They all boil down to the same thing: The wording is just vague enough to start a discussion but no, absolutely not allowed.


As a GM, I might allow it, depending on the feats in question. (I'd definitely allow it for that weird Aasimar feat to gain wings that requires character level 10, since almost nobody can actually take it at that level because it's an even level.) If you're rolling up a new character at 11th level and say, "Oh, by the way, my character had no feats from levels 1-10 and is only now taking all of them", then no, that's just nonsense.

If you're asking whether the rules allow it, though, then consider this: do the rules allow my sorcerer to leave the new "spells known" slots empty when I gain a level and then fill them in later with whatever spell I should happen require in the future?


Roberta Yang wrote:
If you're asking whether the rules allow it, though, then consider this: do the rules allow my sorcerer to leave the new "spells known" slots empty when I gain a level and then fill them in later with whatever spell I should happen require in the future?

No.

Spells wrote:
At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.


Whale_Cancer wrote:
No.

My point exactly.


I've idly debated a feat that lets you do it.

You could only take it once ever, to prevent abuse. You could use it for class feats or general feats, but if you take it as a class bonus feat, you have to take it for that class when you do. (can't take a MoMS monk feat that lets you ignore combat style prerequisits on a levelup where you pick fighter for instance).

I can see it used a lot for major rogue tricks, major hexes etc.


it says so in the rules you must take them when you level up. no paizo doesn't need a 5 page dissertation describing what they mean when they say

Advancing your character wrote:
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.

they say what you need to do right there. if it were optional, they would say so. since it is not optional, per their description,you cannot use the argument that it is a guideline, because the entire rulebook is a guideline. you either take them as written, or change them as you like, but changing them (eg. calling them optional when there is nothing stated that they are not) makes it no longer RAW.

corren28 wrote:
No, it's a step by step guide to make sure you don't miss anything vital.

that is where you are making assumptions based on the developers intent. unless you are the developer, there is no way for you to determine intent, all you have is what is in the text, and the text says "Finally, add new skills and feats." not "Finally, add new skills and feats, unless you want to save them for later." anything you add to that, including the idea that it is a guideline, is applying your own ideas to what is written.

Sczarni

You're right. There's nothing in there saying you can save feats for later. It also doesn't specifically say you can't. It tells you "Finally, add new skills and feats." What if you don't add a feat? Then what? Do you lose it? It doesn't say you lose it. Do you just not finish leveling? It doesn't say that. Anywhere.

The RAW is just vague enough to start a discussion on this repeatedly and we can argue what is RAW and what is RAI all you want. It doesn't change anything. We've all agreed it isn't allowed and it'd be an absolutely terrible idea for any GM to allow it.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

I think when I'm hit by an attack, I'm allowed to avoid actually taking the damage until after the battle when I've had time to heal.

The rulebook says to take damage when I'm hit with an attack. But what if I don't take the damage? Then what? Am I safe? It doesn't say the damage is negated. Does the attack just not finish? It doesn't say that. Anywhere.

The RAW is totally vague on this you guys, this is clearly a thing that can be argued.


This is a GM judgment call. As a GM I would allow it.


Roberta Yang wrote:

I think when I'm hit by an attack, I'm allowed to avoid actually taking the damage until after the battle when I've had time to heal.

The rulebook says to take damage when I'm hit with an attack. But what if I don't take the damage? Then what? Am I safe? It doesn't say the damage is negated. Does the attack just not finish? It doesn't say that. Anywhere.

The RAW is totally vague on this you guys, this is clearly a thing that can be argued.

Pretty much this.

The only times rules are suggestions or guidelines is when they are explicitly stated to be so, such as in the spell research 'rules'.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rules do not allow you to save up feats.

Check out point 6 here. It's what you're wanting to do.


I allow not taking the feat when you level. But I put the stipulation that what ever feat. It must have been a feat you had the Preq for at level 9. I am not going to punish a player and force him to take a feat he don't really want. Maybe he unsure of what one he wants. This is my house rule.

FAQ on fighter training support that if you can hold off and take 2 level 11 feats at if you skipped your 9th level one. Note this is and IF and maybe the intent in FAQ was to allow this to fighters only with retraining feature. I don't agree with it, because it can lead to a lot more powerful characters. AS it stands based on FAQ and RAW there nothing stopping the OP from doing what he wants to do.

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: Can I use the Fighter bonus feat class feature to retrain a feat that I gained at 1st level (such as Cleave) to gain a feat that I did not qualify for at 1st level, but do qualify for now (such as Lunge)? (Core Rulebook, page 55)
Yes. So long as the feat that you "lose" is not used as a prerequisite for any other feat, prestige class, or other ability, you can gain any feat that you qualify for at the time that you retrain it.

—Jason Bulmahn, 06/16/11


KainPen wrote:

I allow not taking the feat when you level. But I put the stipulation that what ever feat. It must have been a feat you had the Preq for at level 9. I am not going to punish a player and force him to take a feat he don't really want. Maybe he unsure of what one he wants. This is my house rule.

FAQ on fighter training support that if you can hold off and take 2 level 11 feats at if you skipped your 9th level one. Note this is and IF and maybe the intent in FAQ was to allow this to fighters only with retraining feature. I don't agree with it, because it can lead to a lot more powerful characters. AS it stands based on FAQ and RAW there nothing stopping the OP from doing what he wants to do.

FAQ wrote:

Fighter: Can I use the Fighter bonus feat class feature to retrain a feat that I gained at 1st level (such as Cleave) to gain a feat that I did not qualify for at 1st level, but do qualify for now (such as Lunge)? (Core Rulebook, page 55)
Yes. So long as the feat that you "lose" is not used as a prerequisite for any other feat, prestige class, or other ability, you can gain any feat that you qualify for at the time that you retrain it.

—Jason Bulmahn, 06/16/11

I think you are misunderstanding the FAQ. That explicitly concerns fighter retraining.

Fighter Class wrote:
Upon reaching 4th level, and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.


like I said IF you can skip skip taking the feat. The fighter retrain just support that as long as the Preq are met at the time the feat is taken you can take it.

the FAQ state fighter can swap out cleave level 1 feat for lunge which is a level 6 feat, because it requires a +6 BAB. NOTE as long as say the fighter did not take great cleave at level 7. Because Cleave is a requirement for Great cleave. The fighter would have been level 8 fighter to do this.

So if skipping a feat at level 9 is allowed, I am not saying it is. there is a precedent in the already in place stating only the Preq need to be meat at the time of feat is being taken. Thus at level 11 if you skipped feat level 5 your can put a level 11 feat in it place when you are level 11. This is exactly what fighter retraining is doing, but it only allowed every 4 levels and with your actual bonus feats.

Like I said I don't agree with it. I don't not play that way in my home game. I house ruled that FAQ out.

My House rule is you can skip a feat or when retaining a feat. But when you replace or decided to select the feat in it's place you have to have meet the requirements at the level the feat is original obtained


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Corren28 wrote:
It also doesn't specifically say you can't.

That is the absolute worst way in which to decide what is allowed, because every rule in the book has 1 thing it does specifically say, and an infinite amount of things it doesn't.

Example: Magic Missile doesn't specifically say you can't return to full hit points every time you roll the same number 2 or more times on the damage dice.

It is impossible for the rules to specifically say everything you can't do, it would take too many words.

"Humans are a varied race, much like in the real world. They have great versatility in the way of [list of racial traits] but cannot: burst into flames and fly off like the Human Torch, project force fields like Sue Storm, stretch out their limbs like Reed Richard, Kinetically charge objects like Gambit, Eat glass and crap expensive looking vases, sharpen steel on their skin like a barber sharpens his razor with leather, or lift castles with their minds."


Roberta Yang wrote:

I think when I'm hit by an attack, I'm allowed to avoid actually taking the damage until after the battle when I've had time to heal.

The rulebook says to take damage when I'm hit with an attack. But what if I don't take the damage? Then what? Am I safe? It doesn't say the damage is negated. Does the attack just not finish? It doesn't say that. Anywhere.

The RAW is totally vague on this you guys, this is clearly a thing that can be argued.

OH GOD I have been feeling this way toward a LOT of threads lately. I have started hiding threads because of this very reason. Thank you.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Roberta Yang wrote:

I think when I'm hit by an attack, I'm allowed to avoid actually taking the damage until after the battle when I've had time to heal.

The rulebook says to take damage when I'm hit with an attack. But what if I don't take the damage? Then what? Am I safe? It doesn't say the damage is negated. Does the attack just not finish? It doesn't say that. Anywhere.

The RAW is totally vague on this you guys, this is clearly a thing that can be argued.

OH GOD I have been feeling this way toward a LOT of threads lately. I have started hiding threads because of this very reason. Thank you.

lol, yeah. For whatever reason, many people think since RAW doesn't state you MUST use common sense, you MAY NOT use common sense when reading the rules. Except that RAW does assume the reader has a certain level of intellect and understanding of linguistic conventions. But rules lawyers always like to ignore these types of required implications when finagling bizarre 'RAW' arguments like this one (the OP original one, not Roberta's. Kudos for finding the RAW way out of taking damage!) =p


7 people marked this as a favorite.

No, rules lawyers are careful to always pay attention to those implications! Take this thread, for example: even though it explicitly states "Make sure you do all of these: ...gain a feat", Corren has assured us that that's really just reminder text and doesn't mean anything and isn't meant to imply you actually need to gain a feat, so there's a gaping hole in the rules about whether or not you need to take your feat because the part where the rules say you gain a feat doesn't count so RAW actually says saving feats is totally legal.

The level of doublethink required for me to merely type that sentence made my head physically hurt.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to put the finishing touches on my new tenth-level character, a Human Duelist 10. Now, most people might think you need five levels of non-prestige classes to become a Duelist, but I took the liberty of not actually choosing specific classes for my levels until I had met the Duelist prerequisites, so my first ten levels are all Duelist. It's completely legal, and you can't show me the page of the rulebook that says it isn't, and even if you can then that doesn't count and it's still legal. In unspecified previous discussions, everyone agreed with me on this and then high-fived me for my brilliance and there was a huge round of applause.

For my encore, I will be taking the twentieth level of several different classes to get their best abilities, and skip right past the first nineteen levels of non-capstone filler.

Sczarni

Wasn't there something on the forums from a dev saying something about it being ok in his book, even if raw doesn't appear that way?


The fighter class gets the ability to swap out old feats and replace them with ones he has prereq's for now.

Allowing people to save feats for later effectively does a similar job as this class feature. That should be telling.

RAW is that you can't save a feat, it's part of the limitions in place in the feat system, and prerequisites and the strength of feats were designed around this.

That isn't to say that you are having badwrongfun if you as a GM allow it in your game. Knowing that it isn't RAW, and why it isn't, just lets you know what the repercussions are by making this change (or why things in your game might be off kilter of the expected).

I mean, our group prefers playing the game assuming "weapon finesse" is automatic (ie, light and finesse weapons can be used with Dex without needing the feat). It's not the rules, but we understand the implications of the change.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I fall squarely on the side that you MUST take the Feat when granted, and not save it.

If you can save them, then there are other things you could save, until later when they can be used for more powerful toys:

2 free spells added to your spellbook when gaining a wizard level
Rogue Tricks
Rage abilities

Sorcerers, Bards, and Fighters are directly given a sort of retraining for their various abilities, which is quite different, and shouldn't be used as evidence that saving or retraining is generally acceptable under RAW.

If one could hold a Feat until you want to use it, it seems that a large number of characters without full BAB progression would save their first level Feats for all of those chain feats that start needed +1 BAB until they reach second level, which would allow just about everyone outside the full BAB classes to get things 2 levels earlier.

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