Cleric vs. druid

[K177Y C47]

Duskbreaker wrote:

Well, clerics are far better healers than droods. So if your party needs dedicated heals don't expect it from the drood. Old EQ gag with drood.

Dedicated Heals in combat is a VERY weak role.... OOC a Wand of CLW has all your healing needs... And if your party routinely needs in combat heals... that is more a problem with 1) your party (VERY poorly optimized) or 2) your GM (does not know how to make appropriate encounters)

[master_marshmallow]

Lately I have become quite partial to druids, as I had never played one I decided to throw some into a campaign that I am running and I'm very pleased with the vast amount of options they have.

As far as Animal Companion vs. Domain, don't forget that you can in fact, have both, if you select the correct Domain. I like Feather for access to Fly, so my flying allosaurus that casts 9th level spells can become a reality.

The pack lord can have as many as he wants, and can boost them back to normal power with Boon Companion. Running 3+ characters is pretty damn strong.

[Taenia]

Whether you are playing a druid or a cleric it is easier to specialize than to diversify, esp when your stats are point buy or roll low.

I don't have much experience with clerics but I have played druids since 1st edition "insert other gaming system" and love their unique nature and playstyle.

Typically my druids are one of two things:

Melee machine - usually with a dip into fighter, barb or monk for extra melee power. My favorite right now is Dex based Urban Barb/Druid combo that uses piranha strike and an agile AoMF to great effect with rage + claws + anger inquisition.

Casters - Usually using summons and wild shape for escape/utility. I think one of the fun things you can do with druids is fly around as an eagle and drop call lightning round 1, flaming sphere round 2 and spend the rest of the fight using your standard to drop lightning and move to run the flaming sphere around the map, small resource, not great damage but a lot of fun. Flame strike at 4 and access to fireball with the domain can make a blaster druid a lot of fun.

[pogie]

Duskbreaker wrote:

Well, clerics are far better healers than droods. So if your party needs dedicated heals don't expect it from the drood. Old EQ gag with drood.

Lol, I didnt know "Drood" was from everquest. It was everywhere in WoW and thought it started there.

[pogie]

master_marshmallow wrote:

Lately I have become quite partial to druids, as I had never played one I decided to throw some into a campaign that I am running and I'm very pleased with the vast amount of options they have.

As far as Animal Companion vs. Domain, don't forget that you can in fact, have both, if you select the correct Domain. I like Feather for access to Fly, so my flying allosaurus that casts 9th level spells can become a reality.

The pack lord can have as many as he wants, and can boost them back to normal power with Boon Companion. Running 3+ characters is pretty damn strong.

While very powerful, the Druid can be a spotlight hog if the player is not sensitive to table dynamics. Wildshape with 3-5 attacks, 3 animal companions with 1-5 attacks plus possible summons. That's a pretty long turn with your party members twiddling their thumbs. Better to just play a Summoner and then they can be open with their scorn, lol.

[666bender]

K177Y C47 wrote:

666bender wrote:

It's like comparing peaches to apples.

Yes they are both divine, but not the same .
Druid are best when they DONT focus- when they can fill any roll, and any position.
A cleric is more focused.

Actually druids are best when they DO focus. A Druid that tries to do everything is going to be much weaker than a Druid that focused on a certain aspect, which is why it is always suggested to druids t pick either melee or spellcasting and focus on one of the two. A melee druid, which capable of spellcasting, won' have a high enough wis to pus his DCs into useful ranges (often settling on a 19 by the end to have 9th level casting). The melee druid is more focused on buffs for his Wildshape forms. While a caster druid will mainly use wildshape for utility and defense (turning tiny so that a a small object technically counts as cover), while forgoing Str in favor of having a high wis for his spell DCs

i disagree.....

the non focus druid use spells for summoning and create hard to move areas or stone walls. while lashing with power attack...
a rime-enforcer-frostbite is amazaing no save de-buff.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

A growth domain druid with Sheleighleigh has a very strong melee capability. Particularly a native outsider race who normally can't get enlarged.

[Jon Otaguro 428]

Druids have access to one of the best feats in the game - Shapeshifting Hunter. By doing 1 level of ranger, a druid can get full ranger favored enemy bonus. I played a samsaran druid in an AP that shapeshifted into a giant (mask of giants) and could cast instant enemy (off the ranger list - samsaran ability) to get large bonuses to hit and damage.

My friend played a druid with the nobility domain so he could get divine favor and fought as a dire tiger.

The thing is that the two classes play a lot differently, so comparing them doesn't do that much good. Clerics have more self buff combat spells and better healing. Druids have shapeshifting and probably a better blaster list.

[Kip TeaLeaf]

I know this thread is old, but I've played both and can tell you that a cleric is both more versatile and more powerful, and here is why...

1: As a Druid, I almost never got to cast the fun spells that other posters mentioned. Why? Because I had to spend all my slots on heals. I've learned that if a player can heal at all, party members will (often "unfairly") expect that player to heal - usually a lot. As a cleric, I could use channels for healing, leaving spell slots free. Furthermore, one channel goes much farther than one cure spell, even with no optimization whatsoever, simply because the channel affects all party members and their pets simultaneously. That becomes even clearer at 3rd level and above, leaving a disproportionately higher number of spell slots free - particularly higher level slots.

2: A cleric can get an animal companion from a domain (e.g. Feather subdomain), and bring it to the level of the Druid's animal companion for the price of 1 feat at level 6 (boon companion). A cleric can also get a mount with free light armor proficiency (chivalry inquisition) or a familiar (e.g. Eagle domain) in addition to the aforementioned animal companion.

3: Channeling is a supernatural ability - so no components and no attack of opportunity - while a druid's heal typically requires spells that can be interrupted or prevented (e.g. silence). Channeling also effectively has a 30' range, while a spell without Metamagic is touch range (bringing the healer closer to interruption). If you think that healing will not be a major concern for you as a druid, then please re-read point 1 above.

4: Summon monster is better than summon nature's ally: the monsters often have darkvision and offer far more versatility (e.g. spellcasting), while the nature's allies are often limited to combat or scout use only. Plus, a cleric can cast SM as a standard action for the price of a feat (Sacred Summons, albeit with a limited list without more investment), while SNA requires a full round unless the Druid takes an entire archetype (e.g. Eagle shaman, and such archetypes limit the standard summoning list even further, in terms of utility/versatility).

5: Clerics can wear metal armor freely. Druids cannot. If somebody starts mentioning dragonhide, I'll flip. I have yet to play a game that had Druid-friendly armor as cheap, low-level, and readily available as cleric armor.

6: Clerics can get free proficiency in a deity's favored weapon. Some nature- and hunting-themed deities (e.g. Erastil, Ketephys for elves/half-elves) offer longbow proficiency, so a human cleric could star with rapid shot with a bow at level 1.

7: I have found even the minor domain abilities to be more useful than wild shape. Until level 6 (or even later, depending on archetype), Wild Shape is usable only once per day. I constantly felt I had to "save" this precious ability for when I needed it, and almost never found the need. In fact, I stopped using wild shape altogether, because it limited me so much. The transformation rules wiped out use of much of my gear, I lost the ability to speak without using a spell (Beastspeak) every time I needed to (and remember my spell discussion in point 1 above), sometimes I lost certain racial abilities (varies by DM), ranged combat was virtually impossible without (again) spellcasting, and I couldn't cast spells without paying a feat (Natural Spell) or (again) casting Beastspeak. Once in wild shape, I didn't want to "waste" the hours of it I had, and so would remain an eagle or what-have-you, flying around, screeching when I couldn't open a door... Wild shape is theoretically great for scouting, yes, but I use my familiar for that or - better yet - don't steal the limelight from my roguish party member (there always is one...). Plus, my mauler familiar (Eagle domain) can ferry the party across chasms for two hours for 25 gp (Ant Haul scroll, with use magic device or a party member, and/or Reduce Person scroll if only one party member needs picking up), at level 1 with Theologian archetype, or permanently for 1,000 gp (Muleback Cords) at level 3. Those items would also be needed for a flying animal companion at those levels, as the flyers have low strength (e.g. 12 for a roc) or are too small (e.g. Giant beetle), and the animal companions are dumber anyway. (When I did continue to play a Druid, I eventually switched to always picking a familiar-granting domain, until I started playing clerics). Meanwhile, the cleric abilities have often helped. Exploration domain to see through doors? Yup. Plant domain for breaking hinges and punching enemies after dropping my bow? Yup. Feather domain for perception and initiative bonuses? Priceless. All available at level 1, often 5 or more uses per day (each).

8: Better Druid abilities (e.g. A Thousand Faces) come online far too late, by the time the party bard-like or wizard-like caster already has many uses of Disguise Self and Alter Self, not to mention the skill points and maybe even charisma to help.

Two advantages the Druid still has:
A) more skill points - it's really sad that 2+Int for non-Int classes still even exists
B) more adventurous spell list, even after cleric gets domains - I love the adventure utility spells like Campfire Wall and Goodberry (Seasons domain saddens me)

Really, though, point 1 is the clincher. I just can't stand playing a full caster that has so few spell slots (due to casting heals). Simply think of channel energy as meaning you actually get to cast fun spells. Spellcasting - doing really fantastical stuff that we don't do in real life - is my fun in role playing Pathfinder, and cleric lets me cast.

Final note: the Shaman hybrid class can be even better and more fun than Druid. Hint: Life Spirit for spell slots, and Extra Hex for even more fun magic (e.g. Shapeshift).

[Snakers]

So why exactly didn't you just make people chip in for a 750 gp wand of heals? That doesn't take spell slots.

Maybe cooperate with your roguish party member. The guy who has a bird signalling to him which way to go to avoid the patrols is a thing I"ve seen in multiple media and it's actually pretty awesome.

The idea that you allow your group to bully you into healing makes me want to mention dragonhide at you.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

1. That's more due to your personal situation. Lots of threads address that.

2. Druids have more interestng lists and unlike clerics, they can handle their companion as a free action... and they have wild empathy, which the cleric does not.

3.Healing is not, never has been the Druid's forte... If your group is making you be a healbot, the problem is your group and the way you're addressing their demands... Have them pay for wands.

4. A Druid can boost thier summons with animal growth.

6. Elven Druids get all of the standard elven proficiencies... including weapons.

7. With Natural spell, Druids can essentially live in wildshape after a few levels. My spouses' druid rocked with his Flame domain.

[Kip TeaLeaf]

1: "Personal situation" seems to crop up a lot... Maybe I do get bullied? *hides face and slinks away sniveling*

2: Clerics also handle their animal companions and mounts as free actions. Their ACs and mounts are treated like animal companions or cavalier mounts. I have used Wild Empathy once ever as a Druid, and empathized with a 2-intelligence animal who couldn't tell me much (despite Speak with Animals). I have tried to use it on hostile creatures many times, only to have bloodthirsty comrades start shooting and slicing - every time...

3: Multiple groups with different people - people still want the few that are able to heal, to heal. Wands help - sorcerer had infernal healing that helped a lot, with some bluffing of the paladin... But wands don't resolve the issue entirely.

4: Animal growth does rock. So does Teleport (Travel Domain). We can argue spells, but I already admitted I like the Druid list more. It's just hard to get full use of it because of the healing issue and wild shape issue (often involves spells, as I mentioned).

6: I know. I always feel pressured to play an elf when I play a Druid. I do not consider that a benefit of the class.

7: My points on wild shape still stand. Even if we are talking about levels 5+ and I pay the Natural Spell feat tax, I feel Wild Shape restricts me to melee or spellcasting - limited utility, limited anything, really, once I run out of spells.

[Snakers]

It seems like almost every one of your points is a consequence of group dynamics, not anything to do with the class itself. Especially the bit about your group invalidating your wild empathy..Wands really do resolve the situation entirely. Druids should not be using spell slots to heal except in extremely niche situations I cannot think of at the moment, maybe, like, level 1 when no one has a wand. In combat, other people can heal much better than a druid. Out of combat, wands. Either way, you're wasting your turn healing as a druid and using spell slots.

[Kip TeaLeaf]

I was thinking about all healing, but especially out of combat (so turns aren't wasted and the team can gather for channels). Maybe I'm just too used to low-level/low-magic games.

Well, if we are going to consider level 5 Natural Spell and wandage, then we may as well open the door to level 8 Domain powers, which I haven't touched upon.

[hasteroth]

It's probably been mentioned, but Druids can make effective controllers by Wild Shaping into a tiny little flying creature and spamming AoE spells and Summon Nature's Ally whilst basically untouchable. They aren't terribly awesome healers however, but they make a good backup or secondary healer.

Druids aren't terrific at low levels. But neither are most casters. Clerics usually get a free pass at low levels due to their healing capability.

A casting focused Druid scales better into higher levels than a melee focused Wild Shape build (without multiclassing). And level 4 (for Wild Shape to start) and level 5 (for natural spell) is really not "late" unless you're playing PFS with its nightmarishly slow progression. If you're focusing on Casting, you want a domain, forget the animal companion. If you focus on Wild Shape... Animal Companion is going to be your best flanking buddy (I recommend a Tiger/Lion or Bear personally).

I have a Wild Shape focused Lion Shaman Druid for PFS that didn't get Wild Shape until level 6, and with level 7 I gave him a level in Master of Many Styles Monk for free Dragon Style... now he Pounces with ease as a Dire Tiger with absurd damage output for the level. By level dipping into fighter too and going the rest of the way with Beastmaster Ranger he only loses 1 level for his animal companion, misses out on a lot of spellcasting... But Wild Shape continues to scale absurdly well (but only as a feline, everything else kinda sucks except for contingencies)

[wraithstrike]

Related question: Is there a way for a druid to cast a summoning spell as a standard action?

[Kip TeaLeaf]

Archetypes like hasteroth's Lion Shaman can cast archetype-related summons as a standard action (e.g., felines, in the case of the lion shaman).

[Rhedyn]

Cleric provides a ton of essential debuff fixes. Certain "truths" like "pump your will save fool" matter far less with a cleric in the party just negating all conditions.

A Druid though is a one man party. Animal Companion > Domain. Spont summoning. Wildshape. I play druids with starting 16 strength and Wisdom, then I pump wisdom.

[Paradozen]

Heres what I do when I sit down to play a druid said two ways.

In Character:

Before I take my morning hour of meditation, I ask you my most recent comrades and friends if there are any services from the divine powers of Gozreh that you might wish for me to channel. Someone asks for healing. By Gozreh's Trident! How often must I tell you! The mysterious and powerful force of nature is not your armor, nor does it exist for when yours fails you. I should think the clerics were honest enough when they sold us their restorative wands, and so I shall trust that those can fix us. If I'd wanted to be a magical medic I would've gone to the church of sarenrae instead of spent 40 years alone in a forest praying.

Out of Character:

Anyone have any spell requests before I prepare my spells? No, I won't prep more than one cure spell, animal companion. If I wanted to heal I would play a cleric.

[Scavion]

Wizards are often espoused as the theoretical most powerful class in the game.

My personal belief as long as you don't specialize, druids are THE most powerful class in the game. They just have so many tools in their kit that any long term problem can be solved through a helping of summoned allies, wildshaping goodness or the fact that they know all spells on their list and can change them day to day.

They just aren't healbots and neither are clerics when you can just buy wands.

Sure their early game isn't super great but it's still miles ahead of any other 9 level caster because of their companion. There is a special moment when your animal companion starts to lose effectiveness where Wildshape then picks up where it left off on being probably the second most versatile ability in the game.

Start with 16 Strength 16 Wisdom and Dual Talent Human for starting 18s in both. Even if you dump int you still have about as many skills as a Cleric. Dump Charisma too if you wanna get really crazy.

[Kip TeaLeaf]

"A Druid though is a one man party. Animal Companion > Domain."

A Druid can get exactly 1 animal companion OR 1 familiar. 1 pet total.

A Cleric can get 1 animal companion/mount AND 1 familiar. 2 pets total. I already addressed this.

On the healing/spell slots issue, Paradozen's post gives a good idea of what I mean. Somebody always asks for healing, taking up at least one spell slot. Thanks to channel energy and spontaneous healing, a cleric needs to prepare exactly zero cures, taking up zero slots.

Also, for those Druids who go for the straight Animal Companion instead of the Animal/Fur/Feather domain, you are getting one fewer spell slot per level from the start, and domain spells can be good.

Oh, Scavion does have a good point on Druids, though: they can safely dump charisma. That can basically nix wild empathy, Handle Animal (aside from the Animal Companion), and social skills, but is usually worth it anyway, particularly with spells like Charm Animal readily available (and there's almost always somebody else covering Diplomacy/Bluff).

[DominusMegadeus]

You seem to think that other people asking for healing means you need to provide it. Tell them to buy a wand and prepare spells that are actually useful.

[Sissyl]

Earth elementals are great fun when they are Huge. With stone plate, they have massive AC. They can earth glide, one of the absolute best travel forms around. With the cave (maybe cavern) domain, they get tremorsense, allowing them to pinpoint anyone in contact with the ground. Deeper darkness comes from the same domain, letting them but nobody else see - unless they grant the tremorsense ability to others.

[Paradozen]

Kip TeaLeaf wrote:

"A Druid though is a one man party. Animal Companion > Domain."

A Druid can get exactly 1 animal companion OR 1 familiar. 1 pet total.

A Cleric can get 1 animal companion/mount AND 1 familiar. 2 pets total. I already addressed this.

But Druid doesn't really need a familiar. The mechanical bemefits for a familiar the druid can do most of by himself/with his animal. He already has a flanking buddy, and can shapeshift into small animals that can deliver touch spells. He can also shapeshift into tiny or diminutive scouts for the party. The only thing he loses out on is taking Improved Familiar so it can use a wand or scroll while he casts other spells.

Quote:

On the healing/spell slots issue, Paradozen's post gives a good idea of what I mean. Somebody always asks for healing, taking up at least one spell slot. Thanks to channel energy and spontaneous healing, a cleric needs to prepare exactly zero cures, taking up zero slots.

Somebody always asks for healing, and I tell them no. Its as simple as that. Druid is simply a poor healer compared to cleric, so as long as you make it clear that you aren't a cleric, the party stops asking after a few sessions.

Beyond cure light its never worth a slot, and considering I could've chosen Faerie Fire, Produce Flame, or Entangle, cure light is barely worth than one even when I'm juggling 6.

Once you hit 3rd level spells I advise not prepping cure moderate wounds unless you have downtime and need to heal. In a fight, Mad Monkeys will be infinitely more useful for saving HP. It will damage the enemy (end the fight sooner) and might make the enemy incapable of functioning. Nauseated is a serious debufd, as is deafened (for casters anyway). And you can steal spell component pouches or disarm weapons, disabling many an NPC. Plus, the flavor is amazing on it.

[Sissyl]

The guys complaining they don't get healing are all perfectly welcome to play a life oracle if they so choose. Hmmm, that sounds like a cool house rule: Anyone complains about another PC not healing gets to play a dedicated healer next time.

[Rhedyn]

Wand of cure light wounds. You will get healed after combat and like it.

One druid animal companion is far better than 1 or 2 sub par buddies.

Wildshape has no easy comparison from the Cleric. Clerics basically cannot matched it ever. Yet druids don't have things like remove fear or massive undead armies.

[Paradozen]

Now for an

In Depth Comparison:

Cleric Strengths: Channel Energy is a great class feature. If you spend feats to use it in combat you can keep the party up and fighting for longer, and out of combat it is the ultimate healing class feature, letting you heal a lot of people at one tume. Spontaneous Casting for cure spells means you will never prep these again. You also get 2 domains, which either can be two separate lists of bonus spells, or you can pick one domain list you really like and the healing domain for free empower on cure spells. It also gives access to animal companions/familiars which are pretty great. Free weapon proficiency is also good, it makes for a great melee character when combined with buffs like divine power and righteous might.

Cleric Weaknesses: You get staggeringly few skill ranks. Probably only 2 or 3. It means that you probably spread them a bit thinner than most to cover what is needed. If you use channel in combat, you also get a bid MAD trying to keep up with larger enemy groups and more uses/day. Healing in combat also isn't always a great choice, but a dozen threads discuss this so I won't go into detail. Wrapping up this section, cleric gets very few real class features. You get a couple at level one, and a couple more at 6/8. It might not be a weakness per se, but it is rather unappealing.

Cleric Spells: The list is strong, but somewhat narrow. It is amazing for buffing, healing, debuffing, and removing conditions. It has very few in the way of area control and blast spells, and could use a bit more diversity. Overall its still great, and the fact that there is a level 7 list means the class is one of the strongest in the game.

Druid Strengths: Animal Companions are some of the best fighters in the game. They get abilities like scent, pounce, grab, and rake, and natural attacks are generally more accurate than weapons because they are all at your highest BAB. Animal Domain gives AC and bonus spells, which is really nice. Wild Empathy can also be very useful if you are willing to invest. I am a fan of Fast Empath+Improved Wild Empathy. Its tricky, but can mean the difference between taking 30 damage in a fight with a hydra and having a hydra that carries the fighter into melee. I've yet to see a group that wouldn't prefer the latter. Wildshape is also amazing here because of sheer versatility. In combat you can be a diminutive flying creature with blindsense, a large angry tiger ready to maul enemies, a behemoth hippo ready to chomp on anythign, etc. Out of conbat you can pick up almost any movement type, be the best scout in the game (can't see you, but if they could they still think you are harmless), and are really only limited by imagination. A thousand faces and venom immunity are just gravy.

Weaknesses:Druid sorely lacks feats. Natural Spell is practically a class requirement, wild speech is pretty important for scouting, boon companion is needed if you went with animal domain, and these are on top of normal feats. If you try to use wild empathy you also are more feat starved and have the MAD problem like clerics. Armor lack hurts, leaving you in light armor until you get a lucky item drop, and weapons leave something to be desired until you get reliable wildshape. You also don't have too many class features, but you get enough for the first half of the game.

Spells: Druid List is amazing at battlefield control and manipulating/enhancing animals, as well as blasting and summoning (since you get to for free) It lacks good healing and buffs for the party, and some debuffs are situational. It has a good bit of blasting, but not too much. Overall I find it more interesting than clerics but less focused. Again, access to level 7+ spells makes it amazing.

Basically both classes have merit, and their own weaknesses. I think they balance around eachother

[666bender]

both are amazing classes and shurley have room in the game.
Cleric:
with Domains like Glory and rage , one can be a Rager melee with 9 level spells. Guided hand feat and a good god's weapon offer a SAD and super spell DC with great to hit and ok damage.

Feather and Fire offer a great mounted flyer and fire blaster. take a small size and ride your Roc blasting fireballs and reach feat heals.

Theologian offer a single domain like fire to be a full plate blaster with d8 hp. take (again) guided hand and smite, blast, defend .
(swtich hitter fire ball and a big weapon ).

Evangalist add a bard to parties that lack bards.
Glory can add a super buffer in light armor and a reach weapon.

Druids :
First there are the archtypes:
Saurian is a super melee and the best summoner in the game.
take Rage or a companion.
lion is just a bit behind.

Goliath is a great troll weilding big weapon.
druid can scout amzing, track, off-heal, blast a bit (or a lot with fire domain) , summon and more.
they need to focus a lot.
grapple builds... mellee or caster .
they CAN go both but ... then be so-so at best.