Did you intend to effectively bar Paladins from Bounty Hunting?


Pathfinder Online

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Goblin Squad Member

I asked this in the latest blog thread, but I want to make sure that you, and Lee & Stephen, see it.

From Goblinworks Blog: Screaming for Vengeance:

Nihimon wrote:
Andius wrote:
You turn chaotic evil and lose reputation for killing ANYONE?

Made me re-read the blog to make sure I understood it.

Quote:

You slip toward evil whenever you kill someone while you have the Attacker flag...

If you have the Attacker flag, when you kill a target you lose reputation....
... gaining the Attacker flag is not chaotic if you got it from attacking a bounty target...

That sure makes it sound like you'll get the Attacker Flag if you go for a Bounty.

Can one of the devs please clarify whether you're intentionally trying to rule out Bounty Hunting for Good characters?

It seems like a really bad idea to put the Attacker Flag on Bounty Hunters.

And from the very next post:

Nihimon wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
It whould be possible for a paladin to maintain a LG alignment while taking bounties on evil players.
It's not enough to be able to "maintain" our LG status. Paladins will generally not want to engage in actions that are Evil - regardless of how little it moves their alignment, or how easily it is recovered.

Goblin Squad Member

Some of the alignment shifts we have been presented with so far have been kind of sketchy. I guess after every battle a paladin will have to spend three weeks nursing sick kittens back to health to retain their alignment.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker) then how are Paladins precluded from bounty hunting?

They may have to be more selective about the bounties they take, which makes sense, but they're still more than capable of doing the job.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker)...

Dario, I'm talking about the occasions where the Bounty Hunter does get the Attacker Flag. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Goblin Squad Member

From what I understand the bounty hunter will still be flagged as the attacker because they initiate the combat.

Goblin Squad Member

Lord of Elder Days wrote:
Some of the alignment shifts we have been presented with so far have been kind of sketchy. I guess after every battle a paladin will have to spend three weeks nursing sick kittens back to health to retain their alignment.

Maybe they intend to switch "smite evil" to "express concerns with ill behavior in a non-hostile manner" their lance and sword to flowers, their shield to a platter of milk and cookies and their armor to a tie-dye shirt that says "Give peace a chance!"

They get to keep lay on hands and channel positive energy as long as they don't use it to harm those poor misunderstood undead.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker)...

Dario, I'm talking about the occasions where the Bounty Hunter does get the Attacker Flag. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's what I meant about having to be more selective. If they're not flagged, then effectively your paladin is murdering someone because someone told you they did something bad. You're operating within a lawful contract, so being insulated from chaotic alignment shift makes sense. But you're still murdering someone on a third party's say so. There's no guarantee the bounty target is evil, or chaotic.

Goblin Squad Member

Maybe just making avaliable some sort of atonement, could solve it. So after hunting some bounties the paladin could just fulfill a mission and shift her alignment back to the good side of the axis. I imagine they will make available some sort of alignment metter for the player to see if he is going to change before that happens.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker)...

Dario, I'm talking about the occasions where the Bounty Hunter does get the Attacker Flag. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's what I meant about having to be more selective. If they're not flagged, then effectively your paladin is murdering someone because someone told you they did something bad. You're operating within a lawful contract, so being insulated from chaotic alignment shift makes sense. But you're still murdering someone on a third party's say so. There's no guarantee the bounty target is evil, or chaotic.

We are talking paladins. They have an iconic ability they can use to determine if someone is evil that doesn't rely on hearsay in the slightest.

Goblin Squad Member

LordDaeron wrote:
Maybe just making avaliable some sort of atonement, could solve it. So after hunting some bounties the paladin could just fulfill a mission and shift her alignment back to the good side of the axis. I imagine they will make available some sort of alignment metter for the player to see if he is going to change before that happens.

Paladins shouldn't have to atone for doing their job. The reason they exist is to protect people from chaos and evil.

Goblin Squad Member

@Andius Yes, but the target of a bounty hunt is not automatically evil. A bounty can be placed on a non-evil character.

Goblin Squad Member

I asked about this as well--unless I'm expected to use Very Strong Language to rebuke bandits, I'm not sure how I as a Paladin could help keep the Crusader Road safe.

Goblin Squad Member

Then they can decline to fulfill the bounty if they find out their target isn't evil. But if they take a contract, use detect evil, find the target is evil, and then collect the bounty then that isn't evil.

CEO, Goblinworks

This is my response to this question..

Goblin Squad Member

@Dario, thanks for trying to clarify this, but I have a seriously different reading of the flags, and my impression so far is that it is extremely unlikely that a Bounty Target will still have any Flags as a result of the action that triggered the Bounty by the time any Bounty Hunter actually gets to them.

Hopefully, we'll get a Dev response.

Goblin Squad Member

IMO a paladin should be allowed to strike first w/o flagging or alignment penalty any evil char if he is just defending a caravan or something like that. Maybe they should just stabilish a flag to mark a guarding paladin, as for example if he is part of some order his mission could be always keep the roads from evil, so he would get a guardian flag and be allowed to strike first evil chars w/o penalties.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the response, Ryan. I hear you saying it's not an official Goblinworks position, but it's at least nice to hear you clarify that yes, you did in fact intend to effectively bar Paladins from Bounty Hunting - or at least, you're not at all opposed to that outcome.

Goblin Squad Member

Seems we all have some differences of opinion on Paladins. Ah, well.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

Edited Ryan's name out of the thread title. There's no need to specifically request individual attention from Paizo or Goblinworks staff.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, this is one of the downsides of playing 'good'. You don't get to up and whack people (even if criminals) without suffering some sort of consequences.

Paladins will need to pick and choose their targets when engaging iun bounty hunting. Only go for those big bad evil guys and not some pleb that got entangled in some political machinations and got a bounty put on their head. Works perfectly I would say.

Goblin Squad Member

Generally speaking most bounty hunters are in themselves almost as bad as the criminals they hunt down.

Just becasue paladins are sanctimonious self-righteous gits does not mean they should be able to engage in what is basically just murder for pay without consequences.

Goblin Squad Member

Gary Teter wrote:
Edited Ryan's name out of the thread title. There's no need to specifically request individual attention from Paizo or Goblinworks staff.

Duly noted. Won't happen again.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
Dario wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
If your alignment doesn't shift (because they're flagged, and thus you don't get attacker)...

Dario, I'm talking about the occasions where the Bounty Hunter does get the Attacker Flag. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's what I meant about having to be more selective. If they're not flagged, then effectively your paladin is murdering someone because someone told you they did something bad. You're operating within a lawful contract, so being insulated from chaotic alignment shift makes sense. But you're still murdering someone on a third party's say so. There's no guarantee the bounty target is evil, or chaotic.
We are talking paladins. They have an iconic ability they can use to determine if someone is evil that doesn't rely on hearsay in the slightest.

You see some random dude walking down the street.

You detect Evil.
You smite the unarmed man.
Congratulations you sir are a murderer.

Just because he's evil does not mean smite first ask questions later.
Thats not lawful good.

Now if you happen to walk around the corner and you find some evil dude torturing puppies you have a reason to deal with the situation most likely without the whole killing them part.

Goblin Squad Member

As a paladin or other good aligned character, I would like to see a mechanic that would allow you to bring evil doers to justice by non lethal means. There should be a way to subdue (bring to zero hit points) without killing your opponent. When an opponent reaches zero hit points you could get an option to subdue or deliver a coup de grace. By this means good aligned characters may be able to collect bounties by "arresting" the subdued opponent. How this mechanic would exactly work within the scope of an MMO I don't know, but it's something to think about.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Durgadin wrote:

As a paladin or other good aligned character, I would like to see a mechanic that would allow you to bring evil doers to justice by non lethal means. There should be a way to subdue (bring to zero hit points) without killing your opponent. When an opponent reaches zero hit points you could get an option to subdue or deliver a coup de grace. By this means good aligned characters may be able to collect bounties by "arresting" the subdued opponent. How this mechanic would exactly work within the scope of an MMO I don't know, but it's something to think about.

You should get bonus points for this kind of stuff.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm wondering what will the mechanic be to gain reputation, or become more good -- for those (hopefully very rare) instances when you just need to murder someone, but you generally want to maintain a high Lawful/Good/High Rep position?

Goblin Squad Member

While paladins might be a bit restricted in bounties, I really hope that when your settlement is at war with someone else paladins dont have to worry.

if my settlement declares a crusade against that LE undead player nation, i want to be able to fully participate in the crusade...and not have to tiptoe around everything and sit on the sidelines. For example if there is a LN person in a LE settlement we are at war with, that LN person should be fair game, no if ands or buts. I dont want to have to go. Detect evil...ok get that guy....detect evil...ok that guy..etc.

I might not be able to do bounties but if i see a merchant getting attacked I want to be able to attack her attackers and defend that merchant.

I dont want paladins to end up being basically restricted to PvE because we cannot easily take part in PvP. The reason I want to play a paladin is because they are champions of good. I want to be able to take the fight to evil. I want to be able to start a crusade against that tyrant a couple hexes down.

I dont want to only be able to kill monsters and not participate in PvP unless my settlement is under siege.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm pretty sure it's been posted that when you're at war with a settlement, their members are effectively permanently flagged to you as long as the war is ongoing. So no hits for that then.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Thoughts about Paladins

This is just me, Ryan, writing, not me Ryan the CEO of Goblinworks, and not Ryan giving directions to his game designers. So don't take any of this as anything but one persons' opinion.

Paladins are not bounty hunters. They are not sheriffs. They are not enforcers of the law. They are not Delta Force commandos.

Paladins are heroic adventurers who use Good and Law to fight evil and chaos as expressed primarily by outsiders, undead, monstrous creatures, aberrations and magical beasts, placing themselves into extremely dangerous situations and using the powers gifted to them by their patron deities to confront and vanquish elemental evil and chaos.

Paladins should not be engaged in killing other characters except in defense of Lawful Good Settlements. They should not be taking revenge for harm caused to other characters by 3rd parties.

Paladins should be standing in ancient barrows fighting wights, or issuing challenges to ogres who are terrorizing the Common Folk, or hunting and killing demonic creatures that have infiltrated civilization.

Paladins should serve as an example to others of the power and the glory that comes from living a righteous life, adhering to a rigorous code of honor, and placing oneself - one's very soul - at risk to protect the weak, defend the Realm, and upholding the tenants of the Faith.

RyanD

I reposted Ryan's completely non-official, just-from-a-random-person's-perspective response, because I want to respond to this thread about it, and not just get my response lost in the other, much larger thread.

Overall, I agree with your post, Ryan, but this part gets me:

Quote:
Paladins should not be engaged in killing other characters except in defense of Lawful Good Settlements.

I think it's perfectly fine for a paladin to seek out evil, leaving the confines of his or her settlement, leaving others to defend it, and vanquish the evil he or she finds.

Are wights who haunt ancient barrows more evil than a human who spends his every waking moment trying to kill innocents? There's a reason Lux Luthor was a bigger bad guy than Solomon Grundy - Luthor has motivation, a passion for being bad. He plans and plots and schemes. Solomon Grundy wanders around and tries kill people he finds. Definitely a menace, but is it fair or accurate to say that one is worthy of being a paladin's foe while the other isn't?

I don't know about bounties and paladins specifically. I'm just referring to the idea that paladins should be a shield instead of a sword. I say they can be one or the other or even both.

Goblin Squad Member

Yes, paladins do and should seek evil out and destroy it. It's what they do. Paladins, as a rule, are not meant to be esoteric Jedi Knights, they are fire and brimstone crusaders. You can play an exception, but most DM's will penalize the pally if he doesn't go out of his way to destroy evil when he sees it, even if he must do it in a LAWFUL manner.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bounty hunting is a big alignment gray area. Paladins do not belong in ethically questionable professions.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bounty hunting is a big alignment gray area. Paladins do not belong in ethically questionable professions.

+1

I see Bounty Hunters as potentially more morally corrupt versions of mercenaries.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Bounty hunting is a big alignment gray area. Paladins do not belong in ethically questionable professions.

Absolutely.

From memory, the original template for the Bounty Hunter (Dragon Magazine in the late 80's) had an alignment requirement of non-good. To perform their work, they need to kill people - which is traditionally viewed as evil.

Would love to see some non-lethal/capture mechanics to help out our LG Bounty Hunters though.

Goblin Squad Member

Does a Paladin really need to be Lawful Good?

I thought Paladins just needed to espouse the elements of his God. There are Lawful Good gods, but equally there are Chaotic and/or Evil gods. Is a Paladin who belongs to a Chaotic Evil church not a Paladin any more?

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are no classes, so I'm wondering why all of this talk about "Paladins"?

But, putting that aside for the moment, I don't understand why a Paladin (or any LG character) would take a bounty. Are they taking the bounty for free? Otherwise, they are taking money to go hunt and kill someone. That I don;t see as a Lawful Good activity.

If they could forego payment, and carry out the bounty without compensation, than at least they may claim they have pure motivations, intent on ridding the world of evil.

Which also brings up the fact that not all bounties will be placed on evil characters. Would a true Paladin operate in a system that can be used to punish, the good, the neutral and perhaps even the innocent, in an equal manner as it punishes evil doers?

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:


Would love to see some non-lethal/capture mechanics to help out our LG Bounty Hunters though.

If they are LG they really should not be a bounty hunter.

Nevertheless ... if we must have LG bounty hunters something like "knock unconscious and apply penalty" might work. The penalty might be something like "suspend skill progression for x minutes/hours" which would simulate jail time without actually disabling the players character who could otherwise play as normal.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

There are no classes, so I'm wondering why all of this talk about "Paladins"?

There are archetypes and one of those archetypes is going to be simmilar to a paladin in PFRPG. So it makes sense to speak of paladins IMO.

Goblin Squad Member

@Vendis, Ryan was talking about killing "characters". Wights aren't characters in this context.

avari3 wrote:
Yes, paladins do and should seek evil out and destroy it. It's what they do.

I believe I've finally fully grokked Ryan's position.

Yes, Paladins fight Evil. But Paladins also uphold Law & Order. It's not good for a stable society to kill people at will because they're Evil.

Cold Power wrote:
Does a Paladin really need to be Lawful Good?

Yes! IMO anyway. There's plenty of room for non-LG hybrid fighters with some kind of patron deity, but if they're not LG, then they're not "Paladins".

Bluddwolf wrote:
But, putting that aside for the moment, I don't understand why a Paladin (or any LG character) would take a bounty.

They won't, and I feel a lot more comfortable with that now than I did 24 hours ago.

Bluddwolf wrote:
If they could forego payment, and carry out the bounty without compensation, than at least they may claim they have pure motivations, intent on ridding the world of evil.

I think that's the intent of Andius's suggestion for an Apprehend Mechanic.


Bluddwolf wrote:
There are no classes, so I'm wondering why all of this talk about "Paladins"?

Because Goblinwork's own Blog discusses such things as Paladins, and given that GW is a licensee of Paizo's Golarion, people expect a certain coherence in roleplaying details like alignment, even if the mechanical details of class abilities are different?

Goblin Squad Member

Quandary wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
There are no classes, so I'm wondering why all of this talk about "Paladins"?
Because Goblinwork's own Blog discusses such things as Paladins, and given that GW is a licensee of Paizo's Golarion, people expect a certain coherence in roleplaying details like alignment, even if the mechanical details of class abilities are different?

Agreed It is hard to know the actual game mechanic but it is quite possible the abilities unlocked by certain "medals" will only function if the character has the correct alignment.


Given that settlement abilities/buildings will work that way, it seems reasonable to think that Class Abilities will as well, certainly for iconic classes like Paladins. To not do so would be butchering the Pathfinder/Golarion concept and heritage.


Nihimon wrote:
Yes, Paladins fight Evil. But Paladins also uphold Law & Order. It's not good for a stable society to kill people at will because they're Evil.

But it doesn't sound like there's any way for NON-Lawful, Chaotic Good characters to go out and fight evil, in ways that a LG character couldn't/wouldn't do. That's what is ridiculous. LG characters can use the Criminal Flag as justification, CG characters shouldn't really care that much about 'Criminality' in a Lawful sense, so relying on the exact same mechanisms to fight evil (and not become evil) seems bonkers.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

"Hey, someone wronged some friends of mine, so I'm going to go hunt them down and make things even. My friends offered to pay me, but I turned down the money."

Does that sound like something a paragon of law and good would say, or something that a generally good person might use to justify something?

EDIT: Clarified a pronoun with ambiguous antecedent.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

"Hey, someone wronged some friends of mine, so I'm going to go hunt them down and make things even. They offered to pay me, but I turned down the money."

Does that sound like something a paragon of law and good would say, or something that a generally good person might use to justify something?

Moral of the story...always take the money :)


Did you notice where I was distinguishing between LAWFUL Good and CHAOTIC Good?
I wrote that LG /can/ rely on the (more) persistent Criminal Flag (/if the murder happened in a lawful area/).
I agree that that phrase sounds more 'generally good' as opposed to LG, but per Ryan Dancy, that doesn't even count as Good!
/CG/ shouldn't need to see the 'borders' of Goodness as limited to Lawful areas, but that's what the mechanics are now.

Goblin Squad Member

The idea that a paladin would take a bounty seems totally out-of-character for the class and their alignment. How would a paladin justify getting paid for doing good?

I do like Durgadin's suggestion. That there could be some means for subduing a criminally flagged person would be a nice option. For instance, toggle your subdue option, defeat the bad guy, and somehow be able to drag him to town. Whether you're being bad in a meta-game sense (griefer) or RPing a criminal, cooling that toon's jets in an NPC prison for a period of time might make you rethink your actions (i.e. stop griefing or be sneakier about where you're doing your evil acts). Perhaps having to pay a fine...we might curtail some yahoo behavior if it starts costing the character gold. It also provides your next victim a short reprieve. Perhaps x-amount of time for x-crime. Sure, whiners will complain that you're disabling their character when they paid good money to play the game, but the game is only enforcing more realistic (rather than more game-mechanical) consequences for your character's actions. And...that's why you have alts.

I know some will think this idea far too strong a consequence. We're still in the developmental stages and this is just another idea tossed out there to be discussed, fleshed-out, or outright discarded. Far more important is the continued civil debate.

On an aside, back in my UO days, following a server-wide manhunt for my role-played evil character, I played out his imprisonment for over a week...the interrogations and visits from guests made for some fun interaction, though that's not everyone's cup of tea.


Hobs the Short wrote:


I do like Durgadin's suggestion. That there could be some means for subduing a criminally flagged person would be a nice option. For instance, toggle your subdue option, defeat the bad guy, and somehow be able to drag him to town. Whether you're being bad in a meta-game sense (griefer) or RPing a criminal, cooling that toon's jets in an NPC prison for a period of time might make you rethink your actions (i.e. stop griefing or be sneakier about where you're doing your evil acts). Perhaps having to pay a fine...we might curtail some yahoo behavior if it starts costing the character gold. It also provides your next victim a short reprieve. Perhaps x-amount of time for x-crime. Sure, whiners will complain that you're disabling their character when they paid good money to play the game, but the game is only enforcing more realistic (rather than more game-mechanical) consequences for your character's actions. And...that's why you have alts.

I know some will think this idea far too strong a consequence. We're still in the developmental stages and this is just another idea tossed out there to be discussed, fleshed-out, or outright discarded. Far more important is the continued civil debate.

Planning to become a nefarious, Evil, bandit/assassin, I actually would not mind this mechanic. It is another interesting challenge, trying to stay out of jail. Heck, maybe even a possible mini-game to escape?

So many options.
Provided the time is like 5 minutes in-game or something. Any longer and it would just become boring.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

In fact, jail of 5 minutes would be a bigger deterrent than the flags. :)

Goblin Squad Member

I also think paladins aren't bounty hunters. But they can be sheriffs who protect their settlements. I hope alignments draw clear distinctions towards player behavior and doing so bring variety in to the game.

Of course there is always the possibility of ignoring the alignment system and to play how one wants to play and ignore the consequences, but it seems like a very distinct feature in PFO that alignment restricted archetypes are tied to their designated alignment. Dah! I hope they keep it that way, it's at least one of the things that makes PFO different when compared to other games I think. It could even become more emphasized, because I think it will increase meaningful player interaction. No-one can do everything by themselves.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rah wrote:
In fact, jail of 5 minutes would be a bigger deterrent than the flags. :)

That and/or a fee to be set free would be great IMO. So a good char could subdue a criminal and bring him to prision. The criminal player would face the choice of being kept in jail for some time or paying a fee to be released. That would work for me.

1 to 50 of 67 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Did you intend to effectively bar Paladins from Bounty Hunting? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.