In fact, jail of 5 minutes would be a bigger deterrent than the flags. :)That and/or a fee to be set free would be great IMO. So a good char could subdue a criminal and bring him to prision. The criminal player would face the choice of being kept in jail for some time or paying a fee to be released. That would work for me.
Seems like a fairly good tool for enforcing the law, to me at least.
Goblin Squad Member
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In fact, jail of 5 minutes would be a bigger deterrent than the flags. :)That and/or a fee to be set free would be great IMO. So a good char could subdue a criminal and bring him to prision. The criminal player would face the choice of being kept in jail for some time or paying a fee to be released. That would work for me.Seems like a fairly good tool for enforcing the law, to me at least.
And the bandit's fellows could always try to save him creating new meaningful player interaction in the game. The only drawback that I see in that mechanism is that if it take too long to release the criminal the player will get bored and unable to act for too much time.
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"Hey, someone wronged some friends of mine, so I'm going to go hunt them down and make things even. My friends offered to pay me, but I turned down the money."
Does that sound like something a paragon of law and good would say, or something that a generally good person might use to justify something?
No, but that's unrelated to the issue, right? The question isn't about whether paladins should be bounty hunters. The question is about how paladins can go after evil. If there's 20 bounties floating around, maybe 2 of them are on PCs that are RPd as systematically evil, and would be lore appropriate targets for a paladin to hunt down. How do theses mechanics affect that?
From what Ryan is saying, one answer is warfare. Another answer would be balance for the evil mechanic--depending on how they balance it, it could be effectively unworkable, or require careful management. I'm very intrigued by this comment from Ryan, but not sure what it means:
""The weak", in the Crusader Road, are the Common Folk, the people who don't magically come back from the dead when killed, or gain exceptional powers as they live their lives."
I would like to see this unpacked.
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Perhaps the Paladin should get an additional power.
Just for fun call it the 9-1-1 power. He spots someone with a criminal flag and he can spawn a Warden on the spot. Let the warden do it. He did not presume himself judge and jury on the criminal player character, he called the Law on him.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps the Paladin should get an additional power.
Just for fun call it the 9-1-1 power. He spots someone with a criminal flag and he can spawn a Warden on the spot. Let the warden do it. He did not presume himself judge and jury on the criminal player character, he called the Law on him.
The bounty system only pops in ares where there is law. If the bounty contract reads when it was issued, paladins have a chance of catching the criminals fresh.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Vendis, Ryan was talking about killing "characters". Wights aren't characters in this context.
I understand the context. What I'm saying is that I think it's an accurate interpretation of a paladin to chase down evil, even if it is the form of a character.
Paladins are heroic adventurers who use Good and Law to fight evil and chaos as expressed primarily by outsiders, undead, monstrous creatures, aberrations and magical beasts, placing themselves into extremely dangerous situations and using the powers gifted to them by their patron deities to confront and vanquish elemental evil and chaos.
Paladins are specifically given a way to find evil and a way to crush it. They're better are fighting these creatures with evil literally permeating their essence, sure, but they're still great at fighting all kinds of evil, including characters.
Paladins should not be engaged in killing other characters except in defense of Lawful Good Settlements.
I disagree with this. I think a paladin can be played this way brilliantly. But to refer to my earlier metaphor, I think a paladin should be able to be a sword or a shield or both, if that player wants him to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The part that I found convincing in Ryan's arguments were that Paladins aren't just about destroying Evil wherever they see it. They're also about ensuring that society at large is stable and prosperous.
While Paladins may be able to detect Evil, we also realize that the Common-Folk can't, and it's very important to us that the Common-Folk recognize that we are acting in a Lawful Good manner. So, if there's a clearly evil character walking around town, we forebear slaughtering them in the streets - but we keep our eyes on them.
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This issue has a loop hole. If the criminal that has a bounty on his head has any of the existing flags like the criminal flag, then he is fair game to the paladin to kill without alignment penalties concerning his class, but we don't know how long criminal flag lasts...
Could you explain that? That's not how I read the criminal flag--maybe I missed something?
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@Mbando, I was under the impression that attacking a Flagged character was completely without consequences, but when I went back to search for quotes to verify that, I realized I was mistaken. The best I can find right now is:
From Blood on the Tracks:
There are several types of flags that can be placed on a player character, and these flags are often visible to all players who can see the flagged character. If the player has one of these flags, the consequences for attacking him or her are greatly reduced.
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Nihimon: That's my concern. I'm not interested in paladins being bounty hunters--I get how that's a different role. I'm about paladins being able to judiciously use force against evil PCs. If there are some restrictions on how you can use force on genuinely evil PCs, so that you have to use judgment, all good. But if it so restrictive that PVE and warfare were the only plausible options, I'd be bummed.
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The Common Folk face many threats that are outside the scope of PvP. Monsters are their biggest problem. Monsters get worse if you don't deal with them. So the Paladin has a lot of work cut out for her figuring out where the monsters are coming from, going there, killing all the monsters, and doing whatever is required to de-escalate the monster generation mechanic.
There will be lots of "protecting the weak" type activities to spend time on. There's an infinite number of Goblins.
@Mbando: Paladins can use force against evil PCs without alignment consequences when those PCs are Criminals, Heinous, or At War with the Paladin's Settlement. A Paladin could choose to whack a known evil character at any time, of course, they'll simply have to deal with the stain on their alignment. Some players may choose to play a character that never gets such stains, but that's a meaningful player choice, not a rule.
Paladins can use force against evil PCs without alignment consequences when those PCs are Criminals, Heinous, or At War with the Paladin's Settlement. A Paladin could choose to whack a known evil character at any time, of course, they'll simply have to deal with the stain on their alignment. Some players may choose to play a character that never gets such stains, but that's a meaningful player choice, not a rule.
So basically, when it's justified by Law, there is no consequences on Good/Evil scale, but when it isn't justified by Law, it moves you towards Evil. Yeah, sounds like Good is subsumed to Law. Hope this changes.
Of course, if they're other actions which give you Good points, it could very well 'balance out' in favor of Good. I just haven't seen any of those spelled out. If there is some plan for that, it's probably good to share, otherwise people are prone to discuss what you have published.
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Paladins can use force against evil PCs without alignment consequences when those PCs are Criminals, Heinous, or At War with the Paladin's Settlement....So basically, when it's justified by Law, there is no consequences on Good/Evil scale, but when it isn't justified by Law, it moves you towards Evil. Yeah, sounds like Good is subsumed to Law...
I don't think Heinous has anything to do with Law.
I'd like to see them give a little more thought to Flags that should apply when a character does something that should provoke the righteous wrath of any Paladin that witnesses the act, but I don't think it's fair to make the claim you made.