This is a fun thread. I'll have to keep an eye on it :)
Two notes though.
Remember that Heirloom Weapon (after errata) gives proficiency with the specific weapon you start with, not the general class of weapons. Sunder could be very very bad here.
Don't forget that Arcane Armor Training will eat up your swift actions. Granted, you only have to use it on rounds that you're casting with your standard action, but that also means you can't Quicken on those rounds.
My rough outline for a human melee wizard up to level 13. Teleportation School for mobility and flanking ease-
Feats -
1- Weapon Finesse, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scimitar)
3- Dervish Dance
5- Arcane Strike, Still Spell
7- Dimensional Agility
9- Outflank
10- Fast Study (?)
11- Dimensional Assault
13- Dimensional Dervish
You will relying on flanking for additional hit bonuses so if you don't have a flanking buddy this does fall apart. Armor will be worn and still spell utilized. Consider getting Menacing enchant (+6 when flanking with Outflank).
This does work better as an EK though, Wizard 7, Fighter 1, EK 5
Traits - Fencer, Heirloom Weapon-Scimitar*
1- Weapon Finesse, Arcane Strike or Martial Weapon Proficency-Scimitar*
3- Dervish Dance
5- Combat Reflexes, Still Spell
7- Dimensional Agility
8*- Outflank (We get fighter here, so you can drop your heirloom weapon for a more normal scimitar if you took the trait instead of the feat)
9- Dimensional Assault, Weapon Focus
11- Dimensional Dervish
13- Dimensional Savant, Weapon Specialization
Reach weapon? There was a guide for reach-weapon clerics recently - most of the same advantages probably apply here.
|
Reach weapon? There was a guide for reach-weapon clerics recently - most of the same advantages probably apply here.
Clerics have proficiency in "all" simple weapons, including the longspear. Wizards have a specific list of weapons they're proficient in, and none of them are reach. They can't even take a proficiency feat until they get to level 3, as they don't have +1 BAB at level 1.
Spending the first two levels not even being able to wield your weapon of choice pretty much kills any build that relies on a weapon wizards aren't proficient in. The first two levels are when a wizard is most reliant on his weapon anyway, and when his BAB is the least different from that of a fighter.
|
Reach weapon? There was a guide for reach-weapon clerics recently - most of the same advantages probably apply here.Clerics have proficiency in "all" simple weapons, including the longspear. Wizards have a specific list of weapons they're proficient in, and none of them are reach. They can't even take a proficiency feat until they get to level 3, as they don't have +1 BAB at level 1.
Spending the first two levels not even being able to wield your weapon of choice pretty much kills any build that relies on a weapon wizards aren't proficient in. The first two levels are when a wizard is most reliant on his weapon anyway, and when his BAB is the least different from that of a fighter.
True but if ur a Half-Elf u get free Prof with a martial or exotic weapon of ur choice. My build earlier in the thread has a Scorpion Whip because of that. A 15ft reach weapon that utilizes Weapon Finesse.
Polymorph myself into a dragon and eat everything.
Perfect melee wizard.
Polymorph myself into a dragon and eat everything.
Perfect melee wizard.
OK, that's fine. Show me how you pull that off at level 1 and we're good.
Psion, the problem with your build is that the damage is so poor. Even with a +1 agile scorpion whip, your level 11 build (before buffs) is still doing only 1d4+5 damage (i.e., less than a 1st-level greatsword fighter who only has 12 strength.) Before you get the agile weapon, it's 1d4+1. The sad fact is that you'll never be able to take down an opponent without help from a heavy hitter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OK, that's fine. Show me how you pull that off at level 1 and we're good.Polymorph myself into a dragon and eat everything.
Perfect melee wizard.
Use prestidigitation to glue scales to your face and eat some hot peppers.
Duh.
True but if ur a Half-Elf u get free Prof with a martial or exotic weapon of ur choice. My build earlier in the thread has a Scorpion Whip because of that. A 15ft reach weapon that utilizes Weapon Finesse.Reach weapon? There was a guide for reach-weapon clerics recently - most of the same advantages probably apply here.Clerics have proficiency in "all" simple weapons, including the longspear. Wizards have a specific list of weapons they're proficient in, and none of them are reach. They can't even take a proficiency feat until they get to level 3, as they don't have +1 BAB at level 1.
Spending the first two levels not even being able to wield your weapon of choice pretty much kills any build that relies on a weapon wizards aren't proficient in. The first two levels are when a wizard is most reliant on his weapon anyway, and when his BAB is the least different from that of a fighter.
Not exactly true. Exotic Weapon Proficiency requires a +1 BAB. Martial Profiency has no such requirement.
A scorpian whip is a confusing weapon and poorly defined. Personally I would hope it would have reach otherwise it is worthless as a weapon.
OK, that's fine. Show me how you pull that off at level 1 and we're good.Polymorph myself into a dragon and eat everything.
Perfect melee wizard.
Pun Pun
|
|
Psion, the problem with your build is that the damage is so poor. Even with a +1 agile scorpion whip, your level 11 build (before buffs) is still doing only 1d4+5 damage (i.e., less than a 1st-level greatsword fighter who only has 12 strength.) Before you get the agile weapon, it's 1d4+1. The sad fact is that you'll never be able to take down an opponent without help from a heavy hitter.
Hence the Elemental Body were u will be able to use the Air Elemental Slam attacks. Btw Weapon Finesse does state that Natural weapons are considered light weapons so u dont lose any to hit. Ao admittedly the character will be doing 1d4+1 through levels 1-4, then 14+4+ Spells + magic gear (which i did not add on my build btw) from levels +5, then when able to use Elemental Body the character will be doing 2 Slam attacks for more damage.
Not sure how effective it is for a Wizard but i did a str version of my build, with slight alteration, on a Sorcerer using the Earth elemental body and later Form of the Dragon and it was highly effective in combat. I did more damage than the Greatsword Fighter in my party when i was using the natural attacks granted from Elem body and like wise when i was using Dragon form. The lower levels was a bit of a drag but i spent that time being useful to the party by buffing, killing off runners, and acting as a flanking buddy at times along with being the party face since the rest of them were literal int and cha dump stater so none of them can interact with NPCs.
A haramaki with an armored kilt would impart no spell failure chance at all, but there's still the issue of armor non-proficiency. If you're not proficient in the armor you're wearing, you take penalties to your attack rolls, and Melzard doesn't have the attack bonus to spare.
But the penalty equals the armor check penalty, which for this combination is zero -- so go ahead with that haramaki and armored kilt combination. The only penalty is to speed -- since that combination counts as medium armor, your character is slowed down as though he were wearing medium armor. But that is the only penalty.
Clerics have proficiency in "all" simple weapons, including the longspear. Wizards have a specific list of weapons they're proficient in, and none of them are reach. They can't even take a proficiency feat until they get to level 3, as they don't have +1 BAB at level 1.
They can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency until level 3 -- but they can take Martial Weapon Proficiency, which has no prerequisites. There are martial weapons with reach.
Teleporty flanky buildI like where your head is at, but your build is not strictly functional, raw. You can't use dimensional dervish when using Shift (an ability that functions 'as' a spell is not the same thing as casting said spell). Also, you cannot outflank with yourself. You are still only one character. You need someone else to have the feat for it to work. (Unless your gm lets you, which I probably would since it's just a cool concept) ;)
I understand all of that. I even mentioned that you need a flanking buddy or the build falls apart (or until you get Dimensional Savant when you do count as your own flanking partner, but for a straight wizard that is a loooong time). Ok, so you need a flanking buddy but so what. I don't discount this as being viable though since anyone who uses sneak attacks also needs one, but your Shift (and later dimensional feats) make it easy and pain free for you to do so. If you can't get anyone to burn a feat with you then don't take Outflank and take something else, but having someone to flank with is important to get your +hit up.
Dimensional Agility is taken at level 7 which is when you get Dimension Door, not through the teleporting class feature. If you use shift you will typically be doing it at the end of your turn, after you have completed your other actions (ex. move, cast, shift into flanking position OR full-attack, shift out of danger). Shift is nice for a couple reasons though. First, you get it at level 1 therefore your playstyle works from the very beginning. Also there are only so many times you can cast dimension door per day, so you will still be using Shift from time to time. To reiterate your point though Dimensional Agility and Shift don't (strictly speaking) work with each other unless you have a nice GM. Dimensional Assault works with Shift which is kind of nice (but Dimensional Dervish doesn't).Everything is RAW as I designed it (or should be unless I missed something).
Don't forget that Arcane Armor Training will eat up your swift actions. Granted, you only have to use it on rounds that you're casting with your standard action, but that also means you can't Quicken on those rounds.
Or you can eat the ACP on two spells. Seems an even trade for getting to cast twice? It ain't perfect, but an option is an option.
How are we maintaining armor class with these builds? I assume some light armor is being used but without any proficiency you really have to stick to armor that doesn't have a check penalty.
Are we assuming mage armor/shield at all times during combat?
|
|
Clerics have proficiency in "all" simple weapons, including the longspear. Wizards have a specific list of weapons they're proficient in, and none of them are reach. They can't even take a proficiency feat until they get to level 3, as they don't have +1 BAB at level 1.They can't take Exotic Weapon Proficiency until level 3 -- but they can take Martial Weapon Proficiency, which has no prerequisites. There are martial weapons with reach.
Fair enough--let's go reach wizard.
The purpose of the reach caster is to use your own turn to cast a spell, then maximize your AoO's so you still to make your attacks (all of which at full BAB). A wizard might be pretty well-suited for this, actually, since Enlarge Person is a level 1 spell for him. As a Human, he could get Guisarme proficiency and Combat Reflexes right out of the gate, and from there he's pretty much online at Level 1. First round Enlarge self, spend the rest of the combat making AoO's, casting as needed, and tripping when appropriate.
The only trouble is that such a build would be MAD as a monk. He'd need DEX not only for AC and initiative but to maximize his AoO's per round (and Enlarging comes with an AC penalty on top of his limited armor options), he's two-handing and can't Weapon Finesse so he needs STR, and of course he needs INT. Meanwhile, he can't afford to dump CON because he's a melee wizard, which leave WIS and CHA to dump. Good thing Wizards get good Will saves!
The difference between this build and a monk? Starting at Level 3 this guy can prepare Bull's Strength to help fill in the gaps. Basically he'd probably spend most of his standard actions buffing himself so that he can hit like a truck on the AoO's. He'd probably also want some enchantment or illusion spells too, to trick enemies into provoking.
It seems like in pretty much any of these builds the wizard is abandoning all hope of using spells with saves, in favor of buffs and utilities. That is probably the best way to handle it, though if you ignore the mean SoBS arsenal, you might as well be a synthesist summoner. I dunno, I don't see what makes the exercise any nobler for being the wizard class. Other people seem to have covered wizard am use greatsword method.
Though my method doesn't follow your guidelines, it is still a wizard that can get into melee as a combat tactic.
This is based off a build I'm working on to utilize as much of the alchemist's seemingly disjointed abilities as possible. I mean, the class gets immunity to poison, bombs, and a mutagen to hulk out with. How do you marry those concepts?
My answer: Use poison bombs to generate a cloudkill effect, then grapple your hated foe as they breathe deadly neurotoxin.
How does this pertain to your topic? Well, since the wizard can do everything, they can do this as well.
Cast your poison immunity spell of choice before coating the area in cherry-scented cloudkill. I didn't dig too deep here, try Absorb Toxicity.
Next you want to pimp out your grapple. Of course you'll need Improved Grapple. Don't forget your crab king familiar, he gives you +2 to grapple. Animal Aspect (Gorilla) will give us a +4 competence bonus grapple. Toss in Resinous Skin if you like, DR 5/slashing can only help us in the long run, the +2 circumstance bonus won't stack with aspect, but the -2 penalty you give them once you've got them in your grasp will help out. Enlarge Person will give +2 from the size/str increase, though you could probably polymorph into something nicer. Blind-Fight is gonna help you grab your foe within the cloud, unless you find a spell to cheat at that concealment chance. My quick search turned up nothing for that, though.
I'd rather just cast Black Tentacles or Strangling Hair. But if you want, you can definitely wade into melee like this. And in my personal, biased opinion, it's more badass than hitting people with a greatsword.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why no mention of dark leaf leather armor? Pretty sure the ASF and the ACP is 0, and doesn't turn into med. armor like a haramaki and armor kilt.
As mentioned before, half elf will get you the requisite exotic or martial weapon via alternate race ability: Ancestral Arms. If I remember rightly, it swaps out your skill focus.
Though finesse is tempting to consolidate attributes, it fails in the long run. I would go with a no dachi or falcata if not looking for a reach weapon. Snap up arcane strike of course. Use Mage armor until you can afford dark leaf leather. Eventually pick up power attack. Since its penalty and bonus is based on your BAB, you don't lose as much as many think. Just be a bit more judicious with it.
Weapon focus is a must, toughness is a decent choice. Being the rogues dedicated flanking buddy will help. Flat numerical bonuses to armor and weapon will provide the most benefit.
This is actually a concept I have been pondering awhile. You have given me an excuse to fill it out... Along with a fighter who can easily use UMD at low levels.
An idea would be to be a Half Orc or Dwarf Wizard and take all the cleave feats to make your abysmal BaB a bit better.
I think one consideration for a melee wizard is to have "quicken spell" as a feat as soon as possible and have a quickened "shield" up in every fight as a swift action. It might even be possible to use a metamagic rod for this and save a feat.
And now that the AoMF is cheaper and better, he'll also get one of those ASAP.
woah what? where/when/what book did it get changed, this is incredibly relevant to my interests, etc.
edit: oh wait, are you referring to it being the bonded item?
And now that the AoMF is cheaper and better, he'll also get one of those ASAP.woah what? where/when/what book did it get changed, this is incredibly relevant to my interests, etc.
edit: oh wait, are you referring to it being the bonded item?
It was part of the recent Monk errata on the blog.
See here.
And now that the AoMF is cheaper and better, he'll also get one of those ASAP.woah what? where/when/what book did it get changed, this is incredibly relevant to my interests, etc.
edit: oh wait, are you referring to it being the bonded item?
It was part of the recent Monk errata on the blog.
See here.
i... wow. i'll be showing this to everyone at my table when they get back.
How are we maintaining armor class with these builds? I assume some light armor is being used but without any proficiency you really have to stick to armor that doesn't have a check penalty.
Are we assuming mage armor/shield at all times during combat?
My build on page 1 utilized a mithril kikko and mithril buckler in place of either of these spells. Between Dark Leaf, Mithril, and the Armor Expert trait, you can get pretty far on the ACP reduction. ASF, however, is a little more tricky and I was unwilling to expend feats for proficiency to remove the ASF. That said, there's a case to be made for a 1 level dip in Fighter so you can afford those feats, but that was outside the parameters of the thought experiment.
In the past, when I've played arcane characters (wizards or sorcerers) who wear light armor, I've just accepted the chance for spell failure. My rationale was that a failed spell was essentially the same as a successful save, so expecting every spell to always succeed was outside the bounds of actual combat anyway. So my "martial" casters failed a bit more. They also did more damage and had more options outside of spell casting. I considered it a fair trade.
One trick I use a lot to get around armor non-profiency penalties. The Armor expert trait reduces your armor's ACP by 1. Combine that with an armor that has a ACP of one(mithril breastplate for example), and it drops the penalty to zero. You are non-profiencient and you still take the penalty, but the penalty is zero.
okay, here's my attempt. i'll actually post 3 slightly different builds (all on the same chassis) which are each a little more functional at different level ranges, plus a special one that excels early...
pwn3d! just kidding- building for this level range is totally different. make a 1/2 orc with a falchion; 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 7 Cha; take toughness at 1st and power attack at 3rd; remember your ABCs- Always Be Charging.
[real post]
the build isn't terrible from 1-4, but it really picks up at 5th. here's the chassis the variants all work from:
half-elf [ancestral arms; arcane training]
wizard [transmutation, enhancement]; Bonded Item- Meteor Hammer
starting stats- Str 18 (15+race+enhancement), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 7
traits- Armor Expert; 2nd changes by level range
feats:
race- EWP[Meteor Hammer] (always use as reach with +1 shield bonus)
1- Combat Reflexes
W1- scribe scroll
3- WF[meteor hammer]
5- arcane strike
w5- still spell
7- toughness
9- power attack
w10- quicken spell
2nd trait: Elven Reflexes
at 4th level- Str to 18 (still relying on Mage Armor for 17 AC)
at 5th level- Enhancement to Dex (16), enchant +2 to meteor hammer, buy mithirl piecemeal armor [do maru, plus steel lamellar arms and legs: +8 AC, +5 max Dex, 0 ACP (for you), 30% ASF, no speed reduction]; armor gives no penalty to attack (without having to waist any feats), use still spell for pretty much all spells (unless no somatic component already). use your standard actions for Enlarge Person and other buffs, attacking when you want- bask in your AoOs.
lvl 6-9- keep weapon with highest enchant you can afford. upgrade armor when able. look for con belt. put level boost in Dex (upto 20 w/enhancement @10th).
at 10th level (with a +5 meteor hammer) you attack at +15 (13 w/PA) for 1d8+14 (1d8+20 w/PA), with 6 AoOs- and that's unbuffed. memorize mostly all buffs, including a couple quickened enlarge persons and/or true strikes.
2nd trait: Magical Lineage[Transformation]
feats:
race- EWP[Meteor Hammer] (always use as reach with +1 shield bonus)
1- Combat Reflexes
W1- scribe scroll
3- WF[meteor hammer]
5- improved unarmed strike
w5- still spell
7- kirin style
9- kirin path
w10- quicken spell
11- toughness
13- power attack
w15- extend spell
15- spell perfection[transformation]
leveling boosts: 4- Str, 8+12- Int
lvl 5-14: buy and enchant armor from "5th level" entry; keep weapon highly enchanted; get items to boost physical stats (and reassign class bonus as appropriate), and Int; pick up boots of speed. need spellcraft (for enchanting weapon), use rest of skills for high knowledges (only ones used vs. creatures though). in combat- make heavy use of Kirin feats; continue using standard actions for buffs/some attacks and relying on lots of AoOs.
lvl 15: move where you want to be (move), cast Monstrous Physique III (standard), cast quickened Transformation (swift), chuckle to self well fighter complains about not being able to make himself huge. after 1st round- use kirin strike (since you can't cast quickened spells) and boots of speed for even more attacks (besides the stupid number of AoOs from anyone between 15-30' from you).
frankly, i'm not at all sure this will be any better than just continuing the last one (and it definitely contains one trick that is RAW legal but explicitly against RAI), but i think its funnier/more fun, so here it is.
feats:
race- EWP[Meteor Hammer] (always use as reach with +1 shield bonus)
1- Combat Reflexes
W1- scribe scroll
3- WF[meteor hammer]
5- toughness
w5- still spell
7- power attack
9- dodge
w10- quicken spell
11- heighten spell
13- vital strike
w15- extend spell
15- spell perfection [disintegrate]
17- spell focus [transmutaion]
19- greater spell focus [transmutaion]
w20- persistent spell
2nd trait: Magic Lineage [Disintegrate]
do all the stuff from the "level 5-14" section. for all your 5th level spells memorize quickened disintegrates (that's the shady trick- magic lineage lowers the level to 5 when you apply a metamagic feat, but spell penetration makes that feat free), use some higher slots for heightened still disintegrates. in combat, move where you want, cast Monstrous Physique IV or Giant Form II, and use a quick disintegrate; enjoy AoOs. after the first round- use vital strike or cast a disintegrate if moving (otherwise full attack with boots of speed), cast quickened disintegrate; enjoy AoOs.
by this level there are several really good melee builds. i don't have time to draw them all up, but one based on shapechanging, climaxing with time stop to cast Form of the Dragon III, plus more buffs would be really fun also.
d'oh- i just remembered that in pathfinder (unlike 3.x) quicken doesn't allow you to ignore ASF... that throws off both of the last 2 builds :(
mid level build is easy to fix- replace magic lineage and spell perfection for transformation with the same things for monstrous physique III. when combat starts- move where you wanna be, cast quickened still monstrous physique III (5th lvl slot), and cast still transformation (7th level slot). the rest stays the same.
high level build fixes easy too- ignore all the changes i made to the mid build and just add feats, etc. for the last 5 levels, lol.
edit: i think this build is PFS legal, aside from going to too high a level (after dropping the whole ML/SP to quicken a 6th level spell thing). if you're not worried about PFS legality, pick up a bard cohort with leadership (maybe in place of toughness, since he'll be able to heal you). that'll let you benefit from putting courageous on your weapon; and he can perform plus either cast buffs/heals or use aid another to help you attack (and could have the benevolent weapon enchant to help with that).
Though finesse is tempting to consolidate attributes, it fails in the long run...How exactly does finesse fail in the long run? Better AC, better reflex, better initiative, better acrobatics, better stealth... at the cost of a few points of damage per hit?
It's not just a few points of damage. It's also a waste of a feat early on when something better could be had.
Reflex is the least worrisome save, stealth and acrobatics rant going to suffer that much from being down a few points. If you still require stealth at later levels, invest some money into shadow armor. The difference is more than made up. Heavier armor can give you BETTER AC than a high DEX build, at least at low levels when it matters.
I wish finesse builds worked, but they don't. You invest too much for too little, and you end up falling behind at later levels. There is a reason optimizers skip finesse builds usually. Barring a magus or a couple rogue/ninja builds, they have diminishing returns.
Though finesse is tempting to consolidate attributes, it fails in the long run...How exactly does finesse fail in the long run? Better AC, better reflex, better initiative, better acrobatics, better stealth... at the cost of a few points of damage per hit?It's not just a few points of damage. It's also a waste of a feat early on when something better could be had.
Reflex is the least worrisome save, stealth and acrobatics rant going to suffer that much from being down a few points. If you still require stealth at later levels, invest some money into shadow armor. The difference is more than made up. Heavier armor can give you BETTER AC than a high DEX build, at least at low levels when it matters.
I wish finesse builds worked, but they don't. You invest too much for too little, and you end up falling behind at later levels. There is a reason optimizers skip finesse builds usually. Barring a magus or a couple rogue/ninja builds, they have diminishing returns.
Depends on what your building. I love generalists, and a Dawnflower Dervish is pretty solid all around. They may not win the DPR Olympics, but they always have something to contribute.
Dawnflower Dervish is greAt and all, but it a specific build. It isn't a wizard. It gets quite a few combat boosts a wizard doesn't get. Bringing it up isn't really relevant to a melee wizard discussion.
@vestrial
Most of what I mentioned is far from theory as far as melee combat goes. STR is king barring a few niche builds.
I didn't feel it necessary to post a complete build, since it basically repeated what others said earlier. Since I doubt anyone beyond one or two people have played a wizard in this matter, everything anyone says is theory.but...
Half elf 20 point buy
STR 14 (16)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 7
Alternate race trait: ancestral arms: katana (or no dachi or falcata)
1 scribe scroll
1 arcane strike
3 weapon focus: katana
5 craft wondrous items
5 toughness
7 power attack
9 combat casting
After that... Wizard feats, whatever. Belt of physical perfection,headband of intellect. Sword as arcane bond, +5 corrosive spellstoring keen. Dark leaf leather, +5 heavy fortification. Carry a buckler for when you need AC/run out of spells. That way you still have a hand free for wands/scrolls. (hence katana instead of no dachi, personal preference.)
Use blur, mirror image, infernal healing. Use Mage armor, shield, and magic weapon until your equipment is superior. Expeditious retreat is nice. All the typical spells.
There's a build.
The only advantage to a strength build for a caster as far as I understand it is if you are intent on going the polymorph route.
Every melee wizard/sorcerer I've built has been a dex-based build, not a str-based one. That's becuase dex just gives you more, and since you're going down this sub-optimal path in the first place, you need all you can get.
Again, the goal of this build isn't to outperform or even keep up with a raging barbarian, it's to make a viable melee build that can survive in combat, provide flanking opportunities for teammates and take a punch. The damage it does is nice, but when real hurt is needed that's when you can remember that you're a wizard.
One thing I like about this approach, much like my archer druid, is that if you can pull it off, you end up with a full caster that has a major advantage in resource management since you don't need to cast spells all the time to be relevant. You can save up spells for special circumstances when they're needed.
DEX does not give more damage than STR, that's completely untrue. What you get is a little more initiative, reflex, AC (if using light armor) and skills. Initiative is nice, but feats and traits can make up for it. Reflex... Whatever. AC will be an issue, but that can be easily overcome will spells and later, a rod of extend. The skills are largely irrelevant, since any numerical value can be made up with vanish, invisibility, or crafting items like elven boots.
I like DEX builds, but the numbers do not support a melee character in most cases. You can make up for low ish AC. You cannot as easily make up for low damage.
As far as I am concerned, the best finesse build is a dervish dance magus... Even then, at high levels it's a wash with a STR build.
A finesse build needs an innate high damage class ability to deliver via finesse attacks to make it worthwhile. A straight wizard lacks that ability.
The best a melee wizard can do is a STR build, using skirmishing melee attacks against weak opponents, and spells on strong ones. Utility and escape spells should be used to aid in mobility.
A DEX build can't even kill a weak enemy easily. Casting spells is an option still, but sufficient damage to be competent in melee is not going to be possible without an overly heavy investment.
22 DEX and two feats nets you 1d6+6 damage.
22 STR and one feat (arcane strike) nets 1d8+9+1. (assuming caster level <4). This of course is a feat that gives returns on higher levels. Higher DEX of course will give you 4 higher AC and initiative assuming the STR build has 14 DEX. This can easily be made up for by using the divination specialisation and various defensive spells. STR build can utilise enlarge person, reduce person is not nearly as useful for even the most dedicated DEX build.
However, how will the DEX build make for its incompetent damage? What spell will help that?
Those builds rely entirely on various items to obtain that, including expensive +1 agile amulets of mighty fists, which will take awhile to acquire. Those builds will lack viability until that point, which is something you need to recognise, and something my build avoids. It's as viable as can be from early levels, maintains competency, and isn't reliant on wealth or GM fiat to accomplish.
You can make up for low ish AC. You cannot as easily make up for low damage.
+1
Cathulhu, When I said dex 'gives you more" I didn't mean "gives you more DAMAGE." I meant "gives you more STUFF."
For example, a high dex gives you the following benefits that a high str does not:
Initiative bonus - This is huge in combat. In fact it is my opinion that poor initiative is one of the most common problems with inexperienced players.
Higher AC - Within the limits of the armor type chosen, but a melee wizard's probably not going to be wearing plate armor.
Better reflex save - Highly recommended for a lower HP character.
More and better skill options - There are few str based skills and the ones that do exist are not nearly as versatile as dex based skills.
Ranged AND melee attack bonuses, if you go with weapon finesse.
Str gives you more damage, boosts your melee attack bonus (only) and lets you haul more stuff around.
And as I was saying above, the point of a melee wizard is not to REPLACE a front-line melee character like a barbarian or fighter. It's to have a character who can perform respectably in melee, provide flanking bonuses to allies and to reserve spell casting resources so that the party isn't always having to rest when the pencil-necked geek runs out of finger-waggling options.
|
|
There are definitely better ways to go about a melee caster other than straight wizard. But this thread is not about those ways its about how to make a melee wizard that is durable. Dex builds are definitely the way to go for that as stated above. The things that dex does for the wizard and other classes in general, that are not wearing highly dex restrictive armor, far out way the few extra points of damage str gives, especially since wizard is only going to get at most 2 attacks a round unless going with a natural attack build utilizing spells like form of the dragon, elemental body, ext.
More stuff isn't as useful to a melee character. You don't need the best initiative, reflex, and AC. You don't need an awesome ranged attack bonus; you have touch spells.
Stop getting stuck up on DEX "giving survivability". In this game killing it fast is generally better, and as I have pointed out, many of your spells can correct the low AC issue and grant better defended than AC by mid levels anyway. 14 DEX is enough.spells will give you the defenses you need.
I admit one build with 5 natural attacks is superior to mine in the long term. It's still quite item dependent though, and the first 5 levels (assuming you buy nothing else while you save for that amulet) you are not going to be a melee Mage. You are going to get trounced and/or frustrated with your build.
In any case, I've offered my suggestion as the op asked, I've defended it and explained the rationale behind it. It's a viable melee wizard ( as far as theory goes, since that's all we are running on here anyway) and I'm not really obliged to re-explain it two or three times, especially when people are getting slightly and inexplicably hostile.
TL;DR
the op asked for melee wizard build suggestions, several viable ones were given (including mine). Good job! I'm going home now.
Cathulhu, we'll just have to disagree. I have actually played melee wizards/sorcerers, just so you know. I haven't played a melee wizard in PF yet, I admit, but I have in 3.5.
Your build seems viable too. I'm not saying it isn't. I just disagree with your assertion that dex is a worse choice than str, that's all. I appreciate your participation and suggestions.