Thought Experiment: Melee wizard


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So, just for fun I thought I'd see if the high-powered minds on this messageboard could come up with a build for a wizard who focuses on melee, but still can step aside and pull off the awesome cosmic fabric-of-reality altering wizardness whenever necessary. We'll call him "Melzard"

The guidelines should be as follows:

1. Melzard should have at least a 60% chance to hit level-appropriate monsters.

2. Melzard should have an AC comparable to an equal level fighter or cleric

3. Melzard should have enough hit points to survive a couple of hits in combat.

4. Melzard should expect that his physical prowess should be enough to survive and defeat most encounters.

Melzard should not rely on "Schroedinger's Wizard" spellcasting, meaning any spells used to achieve points 1, 2 or 3 above should either be long-term (hours) or cast as swift actions.

If Melzard should end up only being effective for some range of levels, those levels should include at least levels 1 - 10.

If we can't make Melzard work, we should start on a Ranzard (ranged wizard) build instead.

But I think we can make Melzard work.


Additional guideline required: Stat generation: Point buy? (I will assume PFS rules unless otherwise informed)

Sovereign Court

Well, you're probably going to want an Eldritch Knight build. Either way, I'd suggest one of the Transmutation subschools - they're pretty good at boosting stats.

Also, a Dervish Dance build would partially get around that whole "wearing armor" thing, since a high dex and Mage Armor (and maybe Shield) will get you around the same AC as a Rogue without a spell failure chance.


As stated above. Transformation specialist who also goes EK would be where I start. Race choices I would recommend are Human with the dual talent archtype for +2 to STR and +2 to INT. As you are an a wizard you will have lots of skill points and the +2 to either STR or INT is better then the feat you lose. INT will get you higher DC's and more spells while STR gets you the better to hit and damage with all weapons.


Using weapon finesse on a touch attack is going to help a lot with pt #1. Theoretically a charge can be held for a significant time.


I have recently tried the melee wizard concept. I don't like the point buy method of ability score generation. I use the 4d6 drop the lowest method. Admittedly, a wizard that can hold his own toe to toe must be built on ability scores that are well above average. I began with the following array:

Str - 16
Dex - 15
Con - 18
Int - 17
Wis - 14
Cha - 15

I chose half elf as the race because I could put the bonus anywhere. The array shown above includes that bonus. I added it to charisma.

The first key to combat survivability is HIT POINTS. Given a wizard's puny hit die, the highest score MUST go into constitution. The second highest goes to the class' requisite ability. After that, I high strength score takes up the slack of the wizard's sub-par base attack progression. The third highest score goes here. Final attention goes to improve his AC via Dex bonus.

The first level feat was spent on proficiency with a good weapon. The vast majority of my characters wield the bastard sword. It is an accurate weapon (Critical 19-20), that yields a fair amound of damage (1d10). It was an obvious choice for the melee wizard. Feat progression should include light armor proficiency. The arcane armor feats are a MUST to minimize spellcasting error.

I've had great success with this character thus far. I played him through level 7 where I finally broke down and multiclassed one level of fighter (Wizard 6/Fighter 1). That might be seen as defeating the purpose, but honestly, 2 or 3 levels of fighter doesn't hurt the wizard much. He still gains access to the highest level of spells, albeit not as many per day.

All in all, I'm having a lot of fun with this build. The wizard's robe hides scale mail reasonably well and NPCs are hard pressed when they discover that the sword is more than decorative!


If you go the touch attack route via chill touch (level in touches) then strength is unimportant. Size is also unimportant, meaning gnomes and halflings become more of an option - basically a free +1 AC and +1 to hit.
Gnomes with Fell Magic get chill touch as an SLA.
They also get defensive training and hatred, which can be handy in a fight.


I'm also operating under the assumption that Eldritch Knight is right out.

Melzard, Necromancer version, 20 pt buy, PFS legal:

Human Wizard 8
Base stats: Str: 17, Dex: 14, Con: 14, Int: 15, Wis: 10, Cha: 7
Level adjusts: 4: STR, 8: INT
Adjusted base + enhancements: Str: 18+2, Dex: 14+2, Con: 14, Int: 16+2, Wis: 10, Cha: 7
Fame: 32 (max at this level is 46 assuming 8.2, but we'll assume that he played up a several times for extra cash and failed a few missions)

Arcane School: Necromancy (Life)
Opposition: Enchantment, Evocation

Traits
Weapon Style (Lantern Lodge): Temple Sword
Magical Lineage: Enervation

Feats
1: Toughness, Spell Focus: Necromancy, Arcane Strike
3: Power Attack
5: Fast Study, Combat Casting
7: Still Spell

Gear: +2 Mithril Kikko, +3 Mithril Buckler, +2 Adamantine Temple Sword (Bond Item), Headband of Vast Int +2, Belt of Physical Might +2 (STR/DEX), Cloak of Resistance +2, Ring of Protection +2, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, misc. consumables

Unbuffed AC: 10 + 7 Armor + 4 Shield + 2 Deflect + 1 Natural + 3 Dex = 27, can Fight Defensively for 30

Attacks: BAB +4, STR +5, weapon +2 = +11 (admittedly not great) or +9 with Power Attack
Damage: 1d8+9 or 1d8+13 with Power Attack (again, admittedly not great)

Arcane Spell Failure: 10% if not using Still Spell
HP: 6 + (4*7) + (3*8 [CON/Toughness]) + 8 (FCB)= 66

As you can see, the numbers aren't great...yet.

Tactics:

Spells per day (general outlay, assuming non-descript adventuring):
0-level: 4+1 - Touch of Fatigue, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Acid Splash, Mage Hand
1st level: 5+1 - Cause Fear, Grease, Obscuring Mist, True Strike, 2x Open Slot
2nd level: 4+1 - False Life, Bear's Endurance, Web, Invisibility, Open Slot
3rd level: 4+1 - Haste, Ray of Exhaustion, Fly, Displacement, Open Slot
4th level: 3+1 - Still Enervation, Bestow Curse, Black Tentacles, Open Slot

Open Slots are used for on-the-fly preparation by means of Fast Study (this Schroedinger's Wizard is legit in that regard). Particular powerful enemies are targeted with Enervation and Bestow Curse. Crowds are dealt with in standard control fashion. High damage enemies or badtouch monsters are met with Displacement, Bear's Endurance self-buff for an additional 16 HP, etc. False Life will be maintained as much as practicable, but is most likely to either be cast at the start of the day or in the middle of the day, when the caster can also benefit from the Life subschool healing.

Like many, swarms are dealt with via Alch Fire and avoidance. Spare scrolls of various utility spells will be kept for appropriate situations.

Lantern Lodge

Im not a a fan of wizard since i dont like carting around spell books but this si what i got so far for level 11 with a 20 point buy.

Human
Wizard (Universalist Arcane Crafter)

-Stats-
STR 13
DEX 16 (+2 Racial) = 18
CON 16
INT 14 (+2 Leveling) = 16
WIS 07
CHA 07

-Feats-
01 Arcane Bond (Scorpion Whip), Scribe Scroll, Exotic Weapon Prof Scorpion Whip, Weapon Finesse
03 Weapon Focus Whip
05 Craft Wondrous Item, Whip Mastery
07 Dodge
09 Cypher Script
10 Quicken Spell
11 Improved Whip Mastery

-Spells-
0- Detect Magic, Read Magic, Jolt, Disrupt Undead
1- Shield, Mage Armor, True Strike, Summon Monster
2- Blood Transcription, Blur, See Invisibility, Summon Monster
3- Draconic Reservoir, Elemental Aura, Heroism, Haste
4- Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Elemental Body 1
5- Elemental Body 2, Permanency
6- Elemental Body 3

-Method-
Whip does lethal damage and threatens 10dt and can attack up to 15ft. Use Arcane Bond to make whip an Agile weapon. Elemental Body should be used for air form to up dex and natural armor. Mage armor and Shield for extra AC, Stoneskin for some decent DR, Blur for a 20% concealment, and Draconic Reservoir to exorb some energy damage and convert to damage.


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Weapon Finesse is best bet, your AC options are going to be low, so having a higher Dex for AC will probably be best.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Weapon Finesse is best bet, your AC options are going to be low, so having a higher Dex for AC will probably be best.

This. A player of mine's going DD with a Scimitar as a bonded object and he's gonna hit well for a Wizard at lvl 3.


x82soldier wrote:

I have recently tried the melee wizard concept. I don't like the point buy method of ability score generation. I use the 4d6 drop the lowest method. Admittedly, a wizard that can hold his own toe to toe must be built on ability scores that are well above average. I began with the following array:

Str - 16
Dex - 15
Con - 18
Int - 17
Wis - 14
Cha - 15

I chose half elf as the race because I could put the bonus anywhere. The array shown above includes that bonus. I added it to charisma.

The first key to combat survivability is HIT POINTS. Given a wizard's puny hit die, the highest score MUST go into constitution. The second highest goes to the class' requisite ability. After that, I high strength score takes up the slack of the wizard's sub-par base attack progression. The third highest score goes here. Final attention goes to improve his AC via Dex bonus.

The first level feat was spent on proficiency with a good weapon. The vast majority of my characters wield the bastard sword. It is an accurate weapon (Critical 19-20), that yields a fair amound of damage (1d10). It was an obvious choice for the melee wizard. Feat progression should include light armor proficiency. The arcane armor feats are a MUST to minimize spellcasting error.

I've had great success with this character thus far. I played him through level 7 where I finally broke down and multiclassed one level of fighter (Wizard 6/Fighter 1). That might be seen as defeating the purpose, but honestly, 2 or 3 levels of fighter doesn't hurt the wizard much. He still gains access to the highest level of spells, albeit not as many per day.

All in all, I'm having a lot of fun with this build. The wizakrd's robe hides scale mail reasonably well and NPCs are hard pressed when they discover that the sword is more than decorative!

With those stats just about any build is 'workable' lol. You may not like the point buy system but a great many of the people on the boards have to use them. It also provides a good base line for comparing builds.


Sorry, I was away from the computer for too long...

I don't want an Eldritch Knight. I want a wizard. With wizard levels, wizard spell progression, wizard hit points, wizard wizard wizard.

Let's say a 20 point buy, just to have some leeway.

Psion-psycho, I very much like your build. Not the way I would have gone, but very clever and capable. I could see that character actually working.

Something to remember is that wizards CAN wear armor. They just have to accept spell failure penalties. I've had wizards and sorcerers wear armor in the past and the spell failure can be an interesting role playing situation.

X82, yours is more like what I had in mind.

My initial take on this is that Dex will be key, and weapon finesse is probably going to be in most successful builds.


You didn't directly specify damage per round. Is that important, or just as a subset of point 4?


Harakani wrote:
You didn't directly specify damage per round. Is that important, or just as a subset of point 4?

Subset of point 4. He should be respectable, but not rage/pouncing barbarian territory. Unless you can pull it off, of course.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Something to remember is that wizards CAN wear armor. They just have to accept spell failure penalties. I've had wizards and sorcerers wear armor in the past and the spell failure can be an interesting role playing situation.

Problem is also, they aren't proficient in armor either.

So as a Melee Wizard, atop sucking up the ASF, you'll be taking the ACP to all your atacks as well. So without a Multiclass, you're up a creek... and if you're Multiclassing, well that's not really the pure Wizard you've expressed.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

marking for later

Sczarni

A haramaki with an armored kilt would impart no spell failure chance at all, but there's still the issue of armor non-proficiency. If you're not proficient in the armor you're wearing, you take penalties to your attack rolls, and Melzard doesn't have the attack bonus to spare.

On the other hand, if Gunslingers have taught us anything, it's that you don't have to worry about hitting when your going after Touch AC. Wizards get enough touch spells that I feel like it's not "Schrodinger's Wizard" to assume they'll have at least one decent one at all times.

Here's how I'd go:

Gnome Wizard
Bonded Item: Gauntlet
Stats: CON>INT>DEX>STR>WIS>CHA
Feats:
1.Improved Unarmed Strike (Scribe Scroll)
3.Weapon Finesse
5.Arcane Strike (Still Spell)
7.Kirin Style
9.Kirin Strike
10.(Craft Arms and Armor)
11.Arcane Shield
13.Kirin Path
15.Dazing Spell (Sickening Spell)
17.Improved Critical[gauntlet]
19.Spell Mastery

Favorite Spells:
1st:Touch of Gracelessness, Shocking Grasp
2nd:Bull's Strength, Ghoul Touch, Elemental Touch
3rd:Pain Strike, Draconic Reservoir
4th:Calcific Touch, Detonate
5th:Pain Strike, Mass


With Melzard the Melee Wizard, perhaps using the Divination Specialist while at the same time using the Scrollmaster and Scroll Scholar archetypes to boost melee effectiveness. Both Archetypes are able to be stacked it seems.


Melee Wizard is probably best done as Wizard+Hellknight Sig/Eldritch Knight, if only because of the BaB.

Another idea is to be focused on buffing and then cast Transformation. Requires a high level of spells, though.

Now if you want an ARCANE Melee, I'd go with the Scarred Witch Doctor since they use CON to cast.


Psion-Psycho wrote:

01 Arcane Bond (Scorpion Whip), Scribe Scroll, Exotic Weapon Prof Scorpion Whip, Weapon Finesse

The wizard can't actually take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 because of his +0 BAB, but either a Half-Orc or a Half-Elf can get racial whip proficiency. I would recommend Half-Orc to get Ferocity.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Agree that eldritch knight is the best bet.

To maximize spell levels, fighter 1/wizard 5/eldritch knight 10/wizard +3/fighter +1 gives access to 9th-level spells (spells per day as a 17th level wizard) and a BAB of +16. Good school choices include Conjuration/Creation (extra summon monster duration; with the appropriate Craft skill, can create temporary weapons or other items), Divination/Foresight (extra +4 on initiative checks; Prescience and Foretell), Transmutation (floating +2 on Str, Dex, or Con each day)/ Enhancement (more buffs/self buffs) or Shapechange (natural attacks), or Metal (Iron Skin and some great school spells).

If you're willing to give up a bit more high-level casting ability, then barbarian 2/bard 1/wizard 2/dragon disciple 4/eldritch knight 10/wizard +1 can be a possible route; Moment of Clarity is a must-have rage power (either at 2nd level or with the Extra Rage Power feat) and all of the additional spell progression for dragon disciple (+3) and eldritch knight (+9) should be in wizard; you end up with 1st level bard spells and abilities, 8th level wizard spells (as a 15th level wizard) and +16 BAB, but gains claws and bite attacks, +3 natural armor, +4 Str (plus rage on top of that), and one minor breath weapon use per day.

Arcane Armor Training is useful (take it early) with a mithral chain shirt or mithral kikko (both with 10% arcane spell failure) until you can cast 5th level spells (at which point, take Quicken Spell and switch to darkleaf cloth studded leather with 5% arcane spell failure). Item crafting is useful, mainly Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item, with Craft Wand to supplement normal casting (Craft Wand is especially powerful in conjunction with Craft Staff and the arcane discovery Staff-Like Wand; remember that eldritch knight lets you add wizard and eldritch knight levels together to qualify for feats and arcane discoveries are effectively wizard-only feats).

For spell selection, heroism is a must-have 3rd level spell for a combat wizard, so do not take Enchantment as an oppositional school; you can probably more easily spare Illusion and either Evocation or Necromancy. Both have useful spells, but are ultimately less important than Abjuration for buffs/debuffs, Conjuration for control/damage, Divination for Quickened truestrike and information gathering/scrying, Enchantment for Will-based control and some strong buffs/debuffs, and Transmutation for most of the staple wizard buff and utility spells. If you are a Metal elementalist, you have to take Fire as your oppositional school, so you'll be a bit better off.

Lantern Lodge

RumpinRufus wrote:
Psion-Psycho wrote:

01 Arcane Bond (Scorpion Whip), Scribe Scroll, Exotic Weapon Prof Scorpion Whip, Weapon Finesse

The wizard can't actually take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at level 1 because of his +0 BAB, but either a Half-Orc or a Half-Elf can get racial whip proficiency. I would recommend Half-Orc to get Ferocity.

Sorry about that meant to put Half-elf but im so use to typing Human on all the builds i post.


Another silly idea, just buy a bunch of Polymorph scrolls. Since you don't mind the ASF issue, you may not mind buying scrolls outside your casting level. Like, buy a scroll of Giants Form. Then you get an easy +6 to Str, Nat Armor, and some Con.

Then you can melee all the things :D

Lantern Lodge

Also pertaining to my build the Elemental Body 3 spell will also grant u immunity to crits, bleed, and sneak attacks.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Melee Wizard is probably best done as Wizard+Hellknight Sig/Eldritch Knight, if only because of the BaB.

Another idea is to be focused on buffing and then cast Transformation. Requires a high level of spells, though.

Now if you want an ARCANE Melee, I'd go with the Scarred Witch Doctor since they use CON to cast.

I can't be more clear than I have been so I guess repetition will have to suffice.

I am not interested in bastardized melee/arcane classes, especially those with high BAB.

I specifically am interested in making a STRAIGHT WIZARD work in melee.

Lots and lots of very smart people on these boards keeps saying "wizards can do everything." OK, so let's prove that. Let's make a WIZARD that works just fine as a melee character.

Not an "eldritch knight" or a "warmage" or any other contrived arcane/melee class specifically created to give an arcane caster the melee things a wizard lacks.

Pure wizard. Class progression goes like this: wizard, wizard, wizard, wizard, wizard... etc. ad infinitum...

Lantern Lodge

@Adamantine Dragon
Sadly i think my build is the closest thing ur gonna get for a decent straight wizard build that is capable to hold its own in melee. Personally ive could of done a lot better with sorcerer but that is partially because i hate wizard and was not really trying with the build.


Ok, here's my crack at it. The main thing this guy has to offer is 3 primary natural attacks, with nicely scaling strength to dish the damage.

Tiefling claw claw biter:
Melee Wizard
Tiefling (Scaled Skin, Maw or Claw (claws), Prehensile Tail)
strength 16, dexterity 15, constitution 16, intelligence 16, wisdom 7, charisma 5
Transmutation (Shapechange) school
1: Toughness
3: Weapon Focus (claws)
4: +1 str
5: +1 str, Combat Expertise, Craft Wondrous Item
7: Improved Disarm
8: +1 dex, Change Shape
9: Dodge
10: +1 str, Craft Magic Arms and Armor
11: Armor of the Pit
12: +1 str

The AC is still low (at first level it is 17 = 10 + 2 dex + 1 natural armor + 4 Mage Armor,) but having Toughness and 16 con should help make up for that. Improved Disarm with three primary natural attacks is great because you're very likely to hit on one of them and if you succeed in disarming, you can grab their weapon (and drop it in your square so they can't pick it up.)

edit: he could also buy a Ring of Rat Fangs to get a 4th primary natural attack for only 5000 gp. And now that the AoMF is cheaper and better, he'll also get one of those ASAP.


Does the build have to start out swinging in melee or can it be a wizard that uses certain items and tactics to vastly improve it's melee abilities?


Big tooth Kung fu Goblin Scrollmaster Teleporter Wizard 10
Str 9 -2 racial = 7
Dex 17 +4 racial +1 level +4 belt = 26 (+8)
Con 14
Int 15 + 1 level + 2 hat = 18 (+4)
Wis 10
Cha 7 -2 racial = 5

1. Arcane bond (amulet), IUS
3. Weapon finesse
5. Twf
7. Kirin Style
9. Kirin strike

+2 agile aomf of natural armor +3 (24,750)
+2 ring (8k)
couple level 8 scrolls for shields

AC: +8 dex, +4 mage armor, +3 nat armor, +2 deflection, +1 size, +5 shield = 33
Attacks:
5 bab + 8 dex + 1 size + 2 aomf =
Bite: +16 d4 + 8 (+8 kirin)
Punch, kick, bite: +14/+14/+9 d2+8 x2, d4+8 (+8 once)

Kung fu goblin ftw! He still has a bunch of money left over, and this is with only mage armor up. (are there any other useful hour/level spells for a melee wiz?)

I don't like transmutation since the stat bonuses are enhancements. Most of the schools are pretty bad for melee, but I like the idea of swift teleports to get into position without eating aoos. It's like ghetto tumble.


Kannachan wrote:
Does the build have to start out swinging in melee or can it be a wizard that uses certain items and tactics to vastly improve it's melee abilities?

If they are within a reasonable argument of fitting within Wealth By Level guidelines, sure.


Vestrial wrote:

Big tooth Kung fu Goblin Scrollmaster Teleporter Wizard 10

Str 9 -2 racial = 7
Dex 17 +4 racial +1 level +4 belt = 26 (+8)
Con 14
Int 15 + 1 level + 2 hat = 18 (+4)
Wis 10
Cha 7 -2 racial = 5

1. Arcane bond (amulet), IUS
3. Weapon finesse
5. Twf
7. Kirin Style
9. Kirin strike

+2 agile aomf of natural armor +3 (24,750)
+2 ring (8k)
couple level 8 scrolls for shields

AC: +8 dex, +4 mage armor, +3 nat armor, +2 deflection, +1 size, +5 shield = 33
Attacks:
5 bab + 8 dex + 1 size + 2 aomf =
Bite: +16 d4 + 8 (+8 kirin)
Punch, kick, bite: +14/+14/+9 d2+8 x2, d4+8 (+8 once)

Kung fu goblin ftw! He still has a bunch of money left over, and this is with only mage armor up. (are there any other useful hour/level spells for a melee wiz?)

I don't like transmutation since the stat bonuses are enhancements. Most of the schools are pretty bad for melee, but I like the idea of swift teleports to get into position without eating aoos. It's like ghetto tumble.

Scrollmasters do not receive an arcane bond.


Vestrial, goblins have a +4 dex racial modifier? Wow.

I hadn't considered using non-core races. I'd prefer that we stick with core races, but I'm open to options. I do like your Kung Fu goblin. Not JUST a melee wizard, but an UNARMED FIGHTING melee wizard. Very cool.

I'm not a big fan of the scrollmaster archetype though. It just feels too contrived to me. But it fits my requirements, and it's awesome too. Good job.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Vestrial, goblins have a +4 dex racial modifier? Wow.

I hadn't considered using non-core races. I'd prefer that we stick with core races, but I'm open to options. I do like your Kung Fu goblin. Not JUST a melee wizard, but an UNARMED FIGHTING melee wizard. Very cool.

I'm not a big fan of the scrollmaster archetype though. It just feels too contrived to me. But it fits my requirements, and it's awesome too. Good job.

Yeah, goblins are kinda OP imo, lol. Hafling is not far behind though, basically just -1 to ac, hit, damage.

I'm not a fan of scrollmaster either, just trying to find a shield bonus that wouldn't eat a standard action. Now that I realize it doesn't get arcane bond it's right out, lol.

Guess I gotta go back to the drawing board. ;)


Vestrial wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Vestrial, goblins have a +4 dex racial modifier? Wow.

I hadn't considered using non-core races. I'd prefer that we stick with core races, but I'm open to options. I do like your Kung Fu goblin. Not JUST a melee wizard, but an UNARMED FIGHTING melee wizard. Very cool.

I'm not a big fan of the scrollmaster archetype though. It just feels too contrived to me. But it fits my requirements, and it's awesome too. Good job.

Yeah, goblins are kinda OP imo, lol. Hafling is not far behind though, basically just -1 to ac, hit, damage.

I'm not a fan of scrollmaster either, just trying to find a shield bonus that wouldn't eat a standard action. Now that I realize it doesn't get arcane bond it's right out, lol.

Guess I gotta go back to the drawing board. ;)

Heh, well, too bad, I was sorta liking the little green David Carradine...


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Lots and lots of very smart people on these boards keeps saying "wizards can do everything." OK, so let's prove that. Let's make a WIZARD that works just fine as a melee character.

I'm pretty sure that's a straw man. They may be able to accomplish any task, but I don't think anyone's claimed they can effectively perform all actions. And they're levels behind on raising the dead because they have to wait for Wish.


You would think that elf would be a good race to start with because of their racial weapons. Make Weapon Finesse your first feat. Use a Rapier. Also a mithral buckler has no arcane spell failure chance, and you can gesture with the same hand (though you lose the AC bonus if you cast a spell with that hand).

Too bad there's no race that grants scimitar as a racial weapon; otherwise I'd say that Dervish Dance would be the way to go. It's a shame to have to burn a feat just to get scimitar proficiency.


Oh, BTW, I like the idea of the kung fu goblin, but remember that writing and reading is taboo for goblins. Every goblin knows that it takes words out of your head and you can't get them back. So a goblin that uses scrolls would be a little unusual for Golarion.


Human Scrollmaster Wordcaster Wizard (Divination Specialist)

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 16
Wis 9
Cha 7

Spoiler:

Opposition Schools
Enchantment
Necromancy
School Powers:
Forewarned (Su)
Diviner’s Fortune (Sp)
Scrying Adept (Su)

Scrollmaster Abilities:
Scroll Blade (Su)
Scroll Shield (Su)
Improved Scroll Casting (Su)

Traits
Hedge Magician (5% discount when creating items)
Reactionary (+2 Init)

Feats
(1b) Scribe Scroll
(1h) Racial Heritage (Sylph)
(1) Toughness
(3) Dodge
(5) Airy Step (Sylph)
(5b) Extend Spell
(7) Multimorph Discovery
(9) Wings of Air (Sylph)
(10b) Fast Study Discovery

Base Spells

Spoiler:

Meta Words
0 – Boost, Distant, Lengthy
1 – Careful, Quiet, Simple
4 – Manifestion, Mind Warp
5 – Irresistible, Penetrating
Target Words
0 – Cone, Personal, Selected
1 – Burst, Line
3 – Barrier
Class Words
0 – Acid Burn, Cold Snap, Decipher, Echo, Flame Jet, Force Block, Lift, Sense Magic, Spark
1 – Alignment Shield, Force Shield, Fortify, Lock Ward, Shock Ark, Burning Flash, Fog Bank
2 – Damage, Accelerate, Sense Hidden, Enhance Form
3 – Altered Form, Far Sight, Dimensional Hop, Glimmering
4 – Bestial Form, Acid Wave, Perfect Form, Unseen Shell
5 – Monstrous Form, Unmake, Dimensional Jump

Then using Wealth by Level, we craft scrolls to sell since it is feasible to make a little extra on the side do to hedge wizard’s 5% discount on magic item creation.

Example: Normal 1st level scrolls cost 12.5gp to make, with Hedge Magician this drops down to 11gp 8sp 7cp (actually 11.875gp). For a whopping profit of 0.62gp (or 0.625gp).

Spoiler:
Creating Scrolls: To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll: 12.5 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.

Using a 5th level word spell, you could cast a Personalized Accelerate (boosted), Enhanced Form (Str), Enhanced Form (Con [hp] or Dex [AC]), to gain a Haste-like effect with a +4 enhancement bonus to Str and Con/Dex.


Peet wrote:
Oh, BTW, I like the idea of the kung fu goblin, but remember that writing and reading is taboo for goblins. Every goblin knows that it takes words out of your head and you can't get them back. So a goblin that uses scrolls would be a little unusual for Golarion.

A kung-fu wizard is unusual to begin with. That he's a goblin just makes it slightly more so. =p

You don't need racial weapons. Just take a heirloom weapon for proficiency and make it your divine bond.

Adamantine Dragon wrote:


Heh, well, too bad, I was sorta liking the little green David Carradine...

lol, yeah I kinda like the idea too. It would be pretty fun to RP. And thinking about it, it doesn't really matter that he loses arcane bond. He can just take craft wondrous at 5 and make his amulet anyway. Costs the same either way... So he's good to go!


Actually, it occurred to me that if you want Dervish Dance you could use the heirloom weapon trait to get proficiency in scimitar...


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And the bitey, shapeshifting halfling:

Hafling Shapechange Wizard 10
Adopted(tusked so he has something to do when he's not shifted)

Str 9 -2 racial = 7
Dex 18 +2 racial +2 level +4 belt = 26 (+8)
Con 14 +2 trasmutation school = 16
Int 14 +2 hat = 16 (+3)
Wis 10
Cha 7 +2 racial = 9

1. Arcane bond (amulet), Weapon finesse
3. Piranha strike
5. risky striker
7. Dodge
9. Mobility

+2 agile aomf of natural armor +3 (24,750)
+2 ring (8k)

AC- Normal: +8 dex, +4 mage armor, +3 nat armor, +2 deflection, +1 size +1 dodge = 29
When diminutive: = +11 dex, +4 mage armor, +3 nat, +2 def, +2 size +1 dodge = 33 (37 vs aoo)

Attacks:
5 bab + 8 dex + 1 size + 2 aomf -2 piranha = Bite: +14 d4 + 12 (+4 vs large)
As diminutive tiger (Schrödinger’s tiger?)
+5 bab +11 dex +2 aomf -2 pirhana +1 size +2 charge = pounce: 4 claws +19 (d2+19 plus grab), bite +19 (d3+19)

Wrar says the teenie tiny tiger of doom! =p
It doesn’t specify that the animals you shift into via polymorph have to be their natural size. But it also doesn’t say they don’t have to be. So it would really be GM fiat either way. I’d personally allow it, because teenie tiny tigers mauling face is just too much awesome.


Is a Strenght-based meizard crazy? It probably does not fit in your petition (functional for 1-10 levels). But I think that a shapechanger strenght based wizard can be useful in mid-levels, when the shapechange spells are available.


Human Transmutation (Enhancement subschool) Wizard

Str 17, dex 14, con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, cha 7
Feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword), toughness.

transmutation wizards add +1 to a physical stat, which increases your strength to 18.

1st level spells: Mage armor, simple image, enlarge person.

So, with mage armor, your AC will be 16. Not great, but acceptable. You have 12 hp at first level, and with the greatsword you'll be +4 to hit, doing 2d6+6 damage. Later on you can take bull's strength, greater magic weapon, blur/displacement/mirror image, and so forth. You use your magic to either buff your combat abilities (preferably with long duration spells), or for non-combat purposes.


Aeric Blackberry wrote:
Is a Strenght-based meizard crazy? It probably does not fit in your petition (functional for 1-10 levels). But I think that a shapechanger strenght based wizard can be useful in mid-levels, when the shapechange spells are available.

I don't think it's crazy, but your AC and reflex saves are going to be pretty terrible. As will acrobatics, stealth, etc. Will definitely do more damage though.


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Aeric Blackberry wrote:
Is a Strenght-based meizard crazy? It probably does not fit in your petition (functional for 1-10 levels). But I think that a shapechanger strenght based wizard can be useful in mid-levels, when the shapechange spells are available.

I like this. I tried to build Morrigan from Dragon Age 6 months back,and given that sorc/wizards were the only one to get vermin (read: spider) shape at the time (as well as the bulk of her spell list) I ran with a build like this. Long since lost the statblock, but I might revivify it.

Peet wrote:
You would think that elf would be a good race to start with because of their racial weapons.

Running with this idea, however, it's surprising how effective such a build can be early in the game, before the BAB gap begins to widen. I'd opt for a strength build (it's the go to stat for 95% of good melee builds) and tiptoe toward power attack (though it's pretty much a pipe dream, most of the wizard's focus should be on landing his hits.)

That said, at level 1, a 16 str wizard and the 16 str fighter (assuming neither are sporting weapon focus), have the same hit chance. The wizard can begin the game with a mwk. weapon FOR FREE, and by level 5 can add enhancements to it as if he had the feat. That's... pretty big. Not huge, but at 5th level our wizard can cast haste, bulls strength and rock some elven chain (I mean it's half his WBL, but it fits the concept, I'm sure most GMs would allow it)

Say he spends his feats on Light Armour Proficiency, Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor training. He's not quite a wizard, and he's not quite a fighter, but with time to prepare (let's say with a shield, bull's strength and haste spell...) he has a minimum of 20 AC (+ or minus dex), 10% arcane spell failure (which I've always been able to deal with at the table) and passable chance to hit.

+2 BAB, +5 str bonus, +1 from haste and a +1 from a mwk. (or magic) weapon is +9 to hit. Our 18 str fighter at this level is probably looking at this, with weapon training and weapon focus canceled out by power attack. His buffed statblock would look something like this:

Melee - longsword +9/+9 (1d8+9/19-20)

It's far from as powerful as some of the builds posted, but I've always preferred something like this to the Magus and all of it's accompanying fiddly bits. It's really not BAD. Just suboptimal. I wouldnt try to run with weapon finesse, though. You just NEED a source of damage.

Hell, do the same with a quarterstaff and you're only losing two points of damage off of your attacks. He can even two-weapon fight if you can get enough to-hit bonus together (and enhance both ends of his staff with spell storing at the later levels). At the high levels it'll be all shapechange, baby.


I'm working on my build now. It'll be a fighter and a wizard both at level 5 and with the initial stats of 11,11,12,13,14,15. I'll have access to Core, Advanced player, Advanced race, Ultimate magic, Ultimate combat, Ultimate equipment and Blood of fiends.
They'll both have 10,500 gp available for gear.


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A melee wizard falls behind on multiple attacks at 6th level. Thus, in order to counter that, a melee wizard will have to plan for an alternate means to get those multiple attacks. One means is to start building to a shapeshifting wizard. In this fashion, a wizard can pick up multiple attacks (3+) starting at 5th level. Another means is to get "multiple attacks" via area spells when facing multiple opponents.

A melee wizard will fall behind on AC. This can be countered with a combat buff cast (Shield, Mirror Image, etc.) as well as casting lengthy AC negating buffs (False Life, Stoneskin, etc.) Eventually, AC can become nearly optional for the wizard, which should be the goal.

Hermie the Half-Orc Transmutation Wizard

Str 18 = 15 + 2 race + 1 wizard
Dex 14
Con 13
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 10

Feats:
1st Toughness
3rd Arcane Strike
5th Dodge
5th Craft Wondrous Items
7th Power Attack
9th Quicken Spell

Spells:
1st: Shield, Enlarge Person, ...
2nd: False Life, Bull's Strength, Mirror Image, ...
3rd: Beast Shape, Haste, ...
4th: Stoneskin, Beast Shape II, ...

Arcane Bond:
1st: Great Axe (MW weapon at level 1)
3rd: Amulet

Melee Strategy:

1st: Attack with a great axe (+5 for 1d12+6 damage). Use Mage Armor for AC (from scrolls or spells). Combat buff with Shield as needed.

3rd: Swap Arcane Bond to amulet (of mighty fists eventually). Add False Life as a staple for a boost in hitpoints. Combat buff with Shield or Mirror Image.

4th: +1 STR, so the +1 STR from wizard now gives +1 CON

5th: +2 STR, DEX, or CON from wizard. Use a great axe on small to medium fights. Use Beast Shape for weird fights. Cast Haste for big fights.

7th: Stoneskin + False Life. Start thinking shape shifting for many fights.

8th: +1 INT for 5th level spell prep.

9th: Quicken Shield.

The Exchange

Generalist, human:

I don't have time to run this up 100% sorry. Obviously the armor is unnecessary but it is fun.

Traits
Heirloom weapon great sword or some other big stick, scythe is flavorful.
The trait for +2 to cast defensively

Lvl 1 tactic is to use hand of the apprentice to throw a great sword for 2d6 damage. Chill touch, grease, sleep, color spray as go to spells.
Feats: toughness, weapon finesse (str isn't dumped)

Lvl 3: touch spells and buffs are his tools. True strike, blur, bears endurance, and temp HPs.

Lvl 9: with still spell, full plate and many non somatic spells (displacement, true strike...) still favoring touch spells but using his enhanced great sword as a ranged weapon. He uses cloud spells and darkness to hide him self ( seeing using a Goz mask and the dark vision spell)


Wow, too many excellent build suggestions to adequately respond to all of them.

It is looking pretty clear to me that a melee wizard is not any sort of crazy idea. And of course because the character is a wizard, they can still do wizardly things.

I think it would be a lot of fun to play such a character in a standard party. With a raging barbarian or a tricked out fighter as part of the party the melee wizard could be a significant melee contributor and could make it that much easier for a rogue to gain sneak attack or for other party members to gain flanking and thus to provide even MORE combat goodness.

I think the next wizard I play is going to be a melee wizard.

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