I started hosting a new adventure path for my friends a while ago, and one of my prospective players created an awesome character concept with a brilliant mechanical build behind as well.
However, he fell one feat short of creating the perfect storm, the trifecta of awesome (or so he felt). So he scoured the rules, trying to find a way to squeeze in that one feat, having done much squeezing already.
Eventually, he found it. By joining the Lantern Lodge of the Pathfinder's Guild he could get his feat.
I told him no, and explained the reasons for it. I said that the oriental nature of the organization didn't really fit the theme I was looking for in my games (pirates) and that it was largely designed for Society play, not home games. Also, it would require me to learn and incorporate a whole new rule set (organizations) that would have little to no bearing or relevance on the campaign at hand. It would be a lot more work and a lot more headache just to get him his one feat--a feat he could eventually take at a later time anyways. What's worse, I had a lot on my plate already. I was looking at the daunting prospect of roleplaying over 20 NPCs at a time as well as having to learn and implement several other complex rule sets (such as vehicle combat, chases, and underwater environments/combat). All for my players' love of pirates. Having to also juggle a whole other rule set would only have served to distract me and bring down the game as a whole. So I said no.
A short time later, when said player was GMing his own campaign, I decided to make a lore master fighter because the archetype abilities complimented the build I was going for.
He said no. When I asked why that was, he said it didn't fit the feel of the game, but couldn't being himself to elaborate more than that. When I insisted, he came up with more excuses, saying things like the Pathfinder Organization wasn't prominent or well loved in Ustalov.
"Couldn't we just change the flavor of the archetype," I asked. "Maybe say he's not a Pathfinder, but a knight trained in strategy from a war college?"
He exploded, calling me a hypocrite and referencing the time when I wouldn't let him have organizational ties or mechanics for his character.
I tried to explain to him that he had the wrong impression, that it wasn't so much the organization that bothered me before as it was all the extra work that implementing the new rules would entail. I would have happily changed the flavor and let him have his feat if that was all it took, but no, it would have taken much more since there was an entire chapter of mechanics behind it. All. for. one. feat.
Eventually, I was able to talk him down and get my Lore Warden (though he had to be an ex-pathfinder, something I never wanted him to be in the first place), but then he dragged his feet with allowing my dueling flail. It has been some months later and it remains a sore topic for him. Whenever he hosts games he seems to go out of his way to say "no" to me on various issues, while also allowing other players (chiefly his wife) to play bizarre homebrew characters, like eastern bunnyfolk monks, in western themed games. He tries to come up with excuses for it, but most are feeble.
I am usually able to talk him into getting what I want (something I only attempt if I think he's just being an arse rather than having a legitimate reason for his ruling), but he continues to resist me on so many things, sometimes for no apparent reason.
Anyone have any advice on how I might go about resolving this highly passive-aggressive situation? Am I really being a hypocrite in some way?
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First, I had no idea Lore Wardens had anything to do with the Pathfinder Society.
Second, have you tried apologizing to him? Even if he's totally wrong, it will make him feel better.
I think generally if it gets as far as hurt feelings, you'd probably want to have a talk out of game and probably preferably one on one. Maybe ask him if he's still holding that one game against you after all this time.
He seems the type to have a quick temper, from what you've described at least and since I don't know this person there could be a good chance that this may make things worse. If that is the case, maybe take a break from his games for a little bit. Or, if he's only a friend in a vague sense of the word, stop going to his games completely.
Thing is as a DM you had the right to say no, as DM he has a right to say no (even if it's him holding a grudge). I wouldn't call you a hypocrite though. You might have been able to resurrect the 3.5 flaws system to get him his feat, but that's house-rule and the time has passed already (I assume).
I would definitely suggest you do not "fight fire with fire" that will only make things escalate. Apologizing (even if you don't really mean it) might alleviate things.
Good luck.
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Call him the WHAAA-mbulance. He is a powre hungery cry baby. Granted I would not use those words if he is yoru friends, but I would make sure the other players know in front of him, he is a cry baby for not being able to powergame.
Eugh, this sounds pretty lame. Admittedly, we're only getting one side of the story here, but this guy kinda sounds like a tool. I don't know that I'd call you a hypocrite based on what we know here.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do short of directly calling him out on it, and if that doesn't work, you'll have to decide whether gaming with him is worth putting up with it.
He's my best friend. Not a best friend, the best friend. And yes, he can be aggressive.
Ah, right. Was he looking to use the Prestige system from org play? Those aren't 'feats' those are 'boons' for the record.
I think that was it. They were rules from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide if I'm not mistaken. I remember there being PP and Fame or some such, essentially stats that measured how popular you were within a given organization, some of which could be spent.
If I remember correctly, he wanted into the Lantern Lodge for the proficiency feat. It drew his attention because he could pick itup without having to spend a feat slot, multiclass, or anything else. All he needed was to "say" he was a member in good standing with the organization.
I'm not one to give out freebies, and I didn't want to incorporate the entire rule set either (not then, not with that much on my plate).
Was I so wrong for not going the extra mile?
It was some kind of multiclassed monk trip build. Through several feats he could trip someone, then get an attack of opportunity for having tripped them, then get a free unarmed attack for them falling prone, then get another attack of opportunity when they stood up. There was more to it than that, but I think those were the basics.
It was some kind of multiclassed monk trip build. Through several feats he could trip someone, then get an attack of opportunity for having tripped them, then get a free unarmed attack for them falling prone, then get another attack of opportunity when they stood up. There was more to it than that, but I think those were the basics.
Falling prone doesn't provoke... (?)
Falling prone doesn't provoke... (?)
With the Vicious Stomp feat it does.
No, I don't think you were wrong. Going the extra mile, even for a best friend, could be construed as favoritism by the rest of the group if they were to find out and not be extended the extra mile as well. Not to mention the amount of changes you'd probably have to implement in order to make it possible (if it even is possible) seems like quite a lot for one feat.
That being said, since you're both best friends, I would think all you should need to do is have a talk and come to an understanding, moving past the problem.
Anyways good luck in getting it worked out.
It was some kind of multiclassed monk trip build. Through several feats he could trip someone, then get an attack of opportunity for having tripped them, then get a free unarmed attack for them falling prone, then get another attack of opportunity when they stood up. There was more to it than that, but I think those were the basics.
Wow, it wasn't even over a powerful combination.
Seriously, just apologize, even though you're not wrong. He doesn't want to punish you, he just wants you to acknowledge how unhappy he was with what you did (even though it was justified and correct).
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Your only recourse is to sleep with his wife.
I don't see why this old build from before is of any importance.
The problem at hand, is a butthurt friend, and his petty vengeance.
My game is ongoing, and he is left attempting to play his character build, or some close variant of it (now a vanara monk/fighter last I checked). I suspect he is reminded of his "almost" awesomeness every time he plays it.
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Do you mean this
Ki Diversity (Combat)
Source Faction Guide pg. 56
You have trained at the feet of the masters of the Kusari-Gama, a secret society of monk warriors. With their secrets you have mastered new ways to apply your ki.
Prerequisites: Ki pool class feature, Wis 13, Kusari-Gama 25 TPA.
Benefit: You learn how to channel your ki in a new ability. Choose one of the following ki powers:
Bone Crusher: When you succeed at a trip or disarm combat maneuver, you may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to deal damage to your opponent as if you had hit them with an unarmed strike.
Dim Mak: You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to execute your next Stunning Fist attack as a melee touch attack rather than a normal melee attack.
Mind of the Kensai: You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to imbue a single melee weapon in your hands with the ki focus weapon special ability until your next turn.
Wings of the Crane: If you have the Deflect Arrows feat, you may spend 1 point from your ki pool as an immediate action to use that feat to def lect a second missile weapon that round. If you have the Snatch Arrows feat, you may use this ability to catch a second weapon, but not throw it back.
Zen Combatant: You may spend 1 point from your ki pool as a swift action to substitute your Wisdom score for your Strength or Dexterity for all melee or ranged attacks you make that round.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, you may choose an additional ability from the list above. Monks can select this feat as a monk bonus feat.
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My game is ongoing, and he is left attempting to play his character build, or some close variant of it (now a vanara monk/fighter last I checked). I suspect he is reminded of his "almost" awesomeness every time he plays it.
Just give all your players a magic item each (or a favor of the gods or anything really) that grant them some nice new abilities. In his case, it will give him the feat. Voila, full-awesomeness for everyone.
None of us have access to the Faction Guide so that couldn't have been it.
It's not in the PRD. Perhaps you meant to say the PFSRD?
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Was it:
Weapon Style: You gain proficiency with one weapon that has the monk special weapon quality (see page 145 of the Core Rulebook).
If so, that's a trait (that is equivalent to a feat, just more restricted). I'd probably just let him have a reflavored version of it, provided you were playing with traits.
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Feat combo was probably Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp, Combat Reflexes, and Combat Expertise.
Id say have a talk with ur bud and ask him y he is being dificult with u. If he mentions the Monk he wanted to play for ur game then calmly explain y u did what u did. After which state that u will be more than glad to implement it now but only if he will implement the same thing in every one of his games for now on. If he refuses ask y would he not do that for u if u would do that for him since it would only be fair to keep every1 on the same page.
Also could the extra feat be coming from Hero Point? Since there is an option for when hero points is allowed in the game to take a feat instead of acquire the hero points. If so its an easy implement in any game and i have hero points in all the games i host since its a decent way to speed up the game a tad when the players are not getting the clues or adventure hooks or about to die and can saves the selves if they dont have any other means to d so.
Falling prone doesn't provoke... (?)With the Vicious Stomp feat it does.
It can also provoke with Greater Trip.
My $0.02 MPL appears to be the person giving you the best advice for dealing with your friend. If you confront him in any way you stand the chance of further enflaming the issue and possibly driving a wedge between the two of you, especially if you "win" the argument and force him to see things your way. Be the bigger man and never let him know that you did it. Appologize say something like "your right I was wrong and I am sorry." Yes it will hurt but it will open the door for forgivness both in your games and more importantly in your friendship.
Second, his wife gets special privilages you can find these rules uder the heading "She sleeps in my bed". It has been said that it is better to live on the corner of a roof than to live in a house with a contencious wife.
My game is ongoing, and he is left attempting to play his character build, or some close variant of it (now a vanara monk/fighter last I checked). I suspect he is reminded of his "almost" awesomeness every time he plays it.I don't see why this old build from before is of any importance.
The problem at hand, is a butthurt friend, and his petty vengeance.
Did you start at level 20 or what? If it is an on-going game, his build would start working as soon as the next feat rolls in.
Seriously, I would never, ever as a GM throw in a free feat for someone just because they want their build to rock a bit sooner.
It can also provoke with Greater Trip.Falling prone doesn't provoke... (?)With the Vicious Stomp feat it does.
Greater Trip activates when you successfully trip someone. Vicious Stomp activates when someone adjacent to you falls prone.
Those are two clearly distinctive triggers, which is why they both effectively stack with one another.
Sorry, I personally disagree with all the people that you have to apologize when you are clearly not in the wrong here. That sounds just like battered wife syndrome.
Ravingdork/Meredith, While I am not familiar with faction rules, it sounds like you made the right call. This is a case of sore feelings. The best way around sore feelings is to forgive him if he tries to stomp on your feelings in return. Keep behaving as a friend and this will pass in time.
I personally feel it may be too late to apologize for your initial situation. The best time would have been after he exploded the first time. Don't apologize for your ruling if you do apologize, instead apologize for hurting his feelings.
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I don't have any advice for you but I really want to sit on a campaign like this. I never seem to have these kinds of problems. I want someone to come to one of my campaigns and be a dick. I would like to see how I would handle it. I'm kind of sad this stuff never happens to me :(
<Original post snipped for brevity>
Without reading through everything said so far...
1) Tell him that you are sorry he couldn't have his uber-build, but really, is it that important? Apologies go a long way even when you don't feel you are in the wrong.
2) He needs to let it go.
3) You both need to learn that a DM's decisions do not need to be justified and stop trying to argue one another round. If the DM says no, say "OK" and live with it. If he could have done this at the outset, you wouldn't be in this place. If you had done this when he said "no" to you, it'd probably be out of his system by now.
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Sorry, I personally disagree with all the people that you have to apologize when you are clearly not in the wrong here. That sounds just like battered wife syndrome.
Hear-hear!
Whether you were in the right, in the wrong, have apologised, argued over rules... The point of the game is to have fun. Your friend throwing an entire rule-set onto your plate for the sake of his fun is not necessarily reasonable, while what you're asking of your friend in his game is not unreasonable. If his petty vengeances are going to ruin your fun (and likely not enhance his own), then you need to have a serious discussion with your best friend and try to work this out.
But above all else, this is a game and it is no more valuable than a long-standing friendship. I wish you the best of luck in resolving this issue.
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First of all laugh it off.
Dude,its a game. He is your best friend. If he throws a fit about stupid stuff from time to time consider yourself lucky.
So you told him no to his hopes and dreams for his character. He should have just shrugged and moved on.
So he now wouldn't let you do the same thing. You should have shrugged and moved on.
Sounds like instead he was getting back at you. Who cares? If one character idea doesn't work out try another one!
All this serious discussion talk makes me laugh.
If it was my best friend who pulled this stuff I would have laughed,said "touche" and then hit him with another idea. I don't pin my hopes and dreams on character builds and if I did I wouldn't try and get around a ruling even if i don't agree with it. I would just come up with a new one.
Life is too short and Character lives are a TON shorter. Don't sweat the small stuff.
How old are the people involved in this debate (OP and friend?)
Our ages range from 25 to 30.
To be perfectly honest, I don't get this mindset. You know how I build characters? In response to what is happening in the campaign. If the game features lots of undead, I try to improve my saving throws. If the game features a lucky GM with hot d20's, I increase my AC.
I don't believe there IS a perfect build out there, and even if there was, it'd be silly to pursue it. You'd just get nailed by whatever you hadn't planned for sooner or later.
For me, the goal of the game is to goof off with my friends, make them laugh, and engage in imaginary heroics. Why does it have to be a game where you have to "win" it?
Personally, I wouldn't play with this "the best friend" guy, ever. He sounds like a domineering dipstick, and a real load to have around. But that's just a third hand impression based on text; I could be wrong.
You could have made the feat into a magic item. Then make it as part of found treasure or available to craft/purchase.
Sounds like a case of two wrongs trying to make a right. I don't think he is in the right, but you are not in a position to b&%#!. I don't know the route you are referring to that would gain him the feat, but if you were to deny him of the basis of flavor, you shouldn't really complain when he tells you the same.