RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Star Voter Season 6
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Green Knight (Paladin)
Green knights represent a more primal, uncivilized good than other paladins. Although they often quest in pursuit of their own mysterious ends, green knights are always firmly on the side of good. Green knights draw their powers from deities or azatas, from the magic of good fey or the more benevolent powers of the First World, or even from nature itself.
Alignment: Chaotic good.
Class Skills: A green knight gains Knowledge (nature) and Survival as class skills and does not gain Knowledge (nobility) and Knowledge (religion) as class skills.
Smite Evil (Su): This ability functions like the standard paladin’s smite evil ability, except that if the target of smite evil is an evil-aligned fey, an evil-aligned plant, or an evil-aligned magical beast, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the green knight possesses. This ability replaces the standard paladin’s extra smite damage against evil outsiders, dragons, and undead.
Resist Nature’s Lure (Ex): At 3rd level, a green knight gains resist nature’s lure, as the druid ability of the same name. This ability replaces aura of courage.
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a green knight gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. This functions like a standard paladin’s spellcasting ability, except that a green knight casts divine spells drawn from the ranger spell list instead of the paladin spell list. For all purposes, a green knight’s spell list is considered to be the ranger spell list. This ability replaces the standard paladin’s spellcasting.
Divine Bond (Sp): A green knight who chooses a weapon as her divine bond can add the anarchic or vorpal special abilities to her weapon, but she cannot add the axiomatic or disruption special abilities.
Champion of the Wild (Su): At 20th level, a green knight becomes a true fey creature. She is forevermore treated as a fey rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the green knight’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, she gains low-light vision and DR 5/evil and cold iron. This ability replaces holy champion.
Code of Conduct: A green knight must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a green knight’s code requires that she respect the sanctity of nature and the free will of all living beings, seek to undo the schemes of evil fey, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents. A green knight is free to associate with allies of any alignment, as long as the association furthers the green knight’s quest for good. This replaces the standard paladin’s code of conduct.
Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge
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Charlie, congrats on making it to Round 2, and congrats on choosing a great Arthurian legend as the basis for an archetype. I have to admit, the naming alone had me VERY interested in where you would go with this archetype!
It's one of just 2 paladins submitted, and from the intro section (druid-paladins of the First World!!), you've sold me on the concept you are working with.
That said, right off we're requiring Chaotic Good alignment. Bwuh? But... Paladins are Lawful Good. I'm not sure whether this is stretching what an archetype can do a bit (and I'm sure Sean will weigh in on it), but it leaves me a little unsure about this. You're taking a design risk.
The Nature/Nobility and Survival/Religion swap seems slightly in the archetype's favor, but only slightly.
The new Smite, OTOH, is clearly a step down in power. Plants, fey, and magical beasts are not quite as common as dragons, outsiders, and undead.
With the replacement of the spell list, and the aura of courage, this is quite a distinct archetype, verging on a new base class. I think it is a successful re-imagining of the paladin into a new style, but some might easily think it goes too far. I commend you taking the risk, and creating a paladin I'd certainly want to play.
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This paladin plays up fighting evil fey foes instead of undead, demons, and dragons; I like what you're aiming for.
Resist Nature’s Lure: A class ability swap, not exciting but thematically appropriate.
Spells: A class ability swap, not exciting but thematically appropriate.
Divine Bond: Good swaps.
Champion of the Wild: Interesting choice.
Code of Conduct: Sure.
The only problem I have with this (and it's a little problem) is it's not strongly tied to the RK. It's very "foresty," and the RK is foresty, but I never felt it was quite so fey-oriented (I'm not saying it's not fey-oriented, it's just that's not one of the first things I think of when I think of the RK). But overall, I like it.
I DO recommend this archetype for advancement.
Charlie, I really LOVED the timepiece, and it doesn't surprise me that you went for something cool with this. I think we would be hypocrites to tell you to swing for the fences and then hold it against you when you do. This is a great, strong submission. Great slate of abilities, good swaps for them, fun, boundary-pushing, to me when you are almost redefining a class with an archetype you may just be on to something or you may be teetering over the edge. I think you found the right balance here. The name, obviously, conjures up certain expectations and while you dont have a strong RK tie in, the green knight of legend would be happy to cavort around the River Kingdoms.
I think this is one of the clearly superior entries this round. Good luck!
I DO Recommend this archetype for advancement.
I think it is thematically a great fit because of the heavy fey influence in the Stolen Lands and Kingmaker. Kingmaker was my introduction to the River Kingdoms, and I imagine the same applies for many players.
That said, I'm not excited about this because it feels like it is playing a bit on the safe side with the exception of a different alignment requirement.
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I like it. I agree with Isaac that it plays a bit on the safe side and could change a few more special abilities. I guess that word count was limiting factor. I'd probably go with a custom designed spell list if the word count wasn't an issue.
It's the second class I am reading so I cannot guarantee that I'll vote for it but it is certainly on my + list.
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I agree with Isaac Duplechain that the archetype is both thematically appropriate, as well as a little bit mundane - the list of class abilities essentially nudges the base paladin into something it isn't. Choosing ranger as base and exchanging favored enemy for a form of smite evil may have been a better approach.
Congrats! The name had me reading this archetype first and I think it good. I agree with Drejk on doing a custom spell list over a complete swap but still good.
Fey inspired Green Knight?! You've won me on the opening...but that's personal bias.
You've kept with your theme and kept that theme strong in your choices. Good choice, this archetype could have gone WILDLY wrong if you hadn't.
Why not any non-lawful Good alignment? This is my biggest gripe is how restrictive it is. I understand that nature is chaotic and that fey are (sometimes) chaotic, but restricting to 1 of 9 alignment choices is a little bit of a not-solid design choice.
Adding vorpal? Oooo nice, but what happens if they don't have a slashing weapon? Does it still somehow gain that? Or does it completely follow vorpal property rules? Super small gripe here, but I could see this question coming up in play.
The rest of it is pretty Standard Operating Procedure type stuff. A little mundane but not overly so.
Overall, you've got good inspiration that shows through and it is honestly a good fit to a class that I never thought of before...until this archetype.
I DO recommend advancement.
I posted this in another thread in regards to Sean's comment about fey, so just for completeness' sake...
I never felt (the River Kingdoms were) quite so fey-oriented (I'm not saying it's not fey-oriented, it's just that's not one of the first things I think of when I think of the RK).
I have to disagree here. I think a lot of what I think of as the River Kingdoms "proper" may not have a fey vibe, but the Stolen Lands certainly do and they're technically part of the RK.
Also, IIRC, the chapter on Uringen talks a lot about its fey problems.
A quick search function on the Guide to the River Kingdoms shows the word "fey" first appears on Page 2: "The departure of the elves gave the human race new territory to explore, putting them in conflict with lizardfolk, frog-men, and suspicious fey." They're mentioned again on Page 5.
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To chime in on "vorpal not on non-slashing weapons", as written in Chapter 6 of Kingmaker it is easy enough to change vorpal to skullsmashing or brainpiercing. The mechanical effect is the same just reflavored for a different damage type.
Regarding "why not a custom spell list", the answer is obvious: word count. It seems unlikely to be able to shoehorn an entire custom spell list into the word count limit of this round of the contest.
Charlie, great entry look forward to giving it a try if someone from our group steps up and DM's Kingmaker. I find using the Ranger spell list a unique, and to me exciting design choice.
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This caught my attention partly because I like nature oriented classes, but dislike paladins. I would so play this paladin. This did the main thing an archetype should do in my opinion. Draw me in and make me suddenly want to play this class just so I can have fun with this whole theme.
Also as a GM I have a player doing nothing but nature themes for his characters currently. He would love to be able to play this on a character.
I posted this in another thread in regards to Sean's comment about fey, so just for completeness' sake...
I never felt (the River Kingdoms were) quite so fey-oriented (I'm not saying it's not fey-oriented, it's just that's not one of the first things I think of when I think of the RK).
Which is why I included the parenthetical statement.
Just because The Stolen Lands uses fey stuff and the word "fey" appears on page 2 of Guide to the River Kindoms doesn't change that "fey" is "not one of the first things **I** think of when I think of the RK)."
I really like this take on a champion of nature/the fey. I will admit before voting of the items ended I was entertaining a similar concept, so I'm probably a bit bias. I always enjoy alternatives to the Paladin code as I feel the class is a great vehicle for "devoted champions" but the Lawful Good restriction does at times cause issues. It was certainly a risk to change the alignment to Chaotic Good given the number of threads on the forums that debate back and forth the Paladin alignment restrictions but in this case I think it served you well.
As a proponent of the paladins of every alignment school of thought i like that design space. And having created my own Nature Paladin, the Feral Champion, I'm particularly in favor of the concept.
Good nod to Arthurian Green Knight as Wolfgang pointed out. I like it - simple and evocative, and still obviously a paladin.
Sticking to the Brief: Perhaps not so RK - however I'm personally not holding that against you as a designer. Maybe next round. ;)
Well done Charlie.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Locke1520
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I do like Paladins even with their rigid ideologies and I would still play this class and that's not just because I enjoy Arthurian myth. It's a pretty cool Archetype on it's own.
The ability exchanges may not be exciting but they work here both in function and flavor. This archetype is on my short list.
Congrats on making the top 32 and good luck.
I am a sucker for the flavor of this class. I like that you kept the archetype simple ,but I don't like your amping of Smite,and think you could have done something cooler. Though I like that Resist Nature's Lure came in, I don't like that since replaces a group benefit with a solo one.
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I find it interesting that many of the Superstar candidates are playing with the alignments of traditionally alignment-locked classes. I think that sends an interesting message to the find folks at Paizo about alignment restrictions on base classes, if nothing else.
I like this concept, but at the same time its only true appeal is the fact that it does everything differently. There are no new, creative powers that really interest me. It didn't take much brain effort to process anything. As much as I want to be wow'ed by this one, I see the green knight as little more than a logical switch-and-swap. For example, Smite Evil has its three creature types replaced with another three, spell list is replaced with a different spell list, Holy Champion resembles the Monk capstone, and Resist Nature's Lure is just a (weak) plug-in from the Druid class. The only thing that really stands out to me is adding vorpal to the Divine Bond, and even that's just, you guessed it, a swap.
I think this is a very safe archetype. I don't think its superstar material.
Star Voter Season 7
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Finally giving Chaotic Good equal standing with LG in the holy champion department is enough to grab my attention(though NG is left needing some love).
But the thematic follow-through is what seals the deal for me. :)
It may not be the most flashy archetype with new bells and whistles, but it's rock solid in flavor and offers support for a character archetype that has been left hanging for far too long. If someone wanted to play some sort of "faerie knight" inspired by DiTerlizzi, Rackham, or Froud, I'd point them towards this archetype first.
It's definitely got my vote.
My plan is to comment on all 32 archetypes. We'll see if I make it!
I will give general impressions, but with 3 areas of particular focus that suit my personal interests. Class and feat names: do they show flare? How closely tied to the River Kingdom is the archetype? And last but certainly not least, do I want to play this archetype?
Archetype and feat names: Only the archetype name has any oomph. The rest is more or less directly from existing names.
River Kingdom tie: Weak, but does exist in spirit. I guess this depends on how strongly you see RK as tied to the fey.
Desire to play: I'd be interested in trying out a Palanger. The concept has something to it. I'd rather not have a wholesale trading out of ranger and paladin spells. I get that's probably an artifact of word count, but it's not completely cool to excuse it on that basis. Word count is an intentional design limitation, the job is to work inside it and make it work. I'm also not a super fey fan personally. Desire to experiment leads to a moderate desire to play overall.
Good: A paladin I might actually play! This is awesome sauce and perfect for kingmaker (which is very important!)
Bad: Ranger ability swap seems like a cop out.
Ugly: Code of conduct needs a little more for me.
Overall: 1st one I'll say there's no way this is not getting my vote, its a playable paladin!
good template use, writing is decent. not much RK tie in.
in a stand alone comparison to a base paladin, i think this is a pretty balanced archetype. that said, i think you fall into the same trap as the other paladin submission by messing with the code/alignment restriction. paladins are an attractive dip for Cha based classes as is and when you dramatically reduce the restrictions of their code (which you did) they become even more so. since i already mentioned this on the other thread i'll expand it here: an oracle of nature 1 with the nature's whisper revelation picks up a breastplate on the way to 2nd level, with his light shield and 20 cha (yes that's a big investment in most campaigns, but it certainly happens) he's at a 22 AC (RAW, possibly 20 RAI); at second level he takes green knight, which fits thematically, and 1/day against the BBEG he can smite, giving him 27 AC, at 2nd level (plus the +5 hit, +1 damage, and the ability to ignore DR)- all without that pesky requirement to remain strictly lawful that usually deters that sort of thing.
Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7
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I am really happy to see that I need to chose and re-chose this year to bring my list of 'ooohhh - looking good' entries down to those eight I can actually vote for, so I want to say: thanks to all competitors for providing a good chunk of fun looking archetypes.
Since I am a bit short on time this month, I will only comment on the Items I voted for.
This one I was wary of at first. I (other then many if not most it seems) really find the LG alignment restriction for paladins appropriate, so seeing a paladin archetype changing that didn't sit well with me - at first.
I read the whole entry and I really liked the flavor and its complementation by the archetypes abilities. It evokes that vivid a picture of a fey-knight, or a knight errant in an enchanted realm that this archetype was indeed the first I was sure of for my votes.
Still, the alignement change bugs me a bit, especially since nothing of that flavor (and non of the abilities except for the bond weapon) really seem that chaotic to me - I still think even a fey knight could stand out by being a true, lawful good paladin.
Nevertheless: This archetype looks fun to play and easily fits the River Kingdoms as well as any fey-heavy setting.
Great job and good luck with the rest of the competition.
P.S. Sorry for my sloppy English, being down with a heavy cold really takes away from ones second language...
In my mind, fey are a big part of the River Kingdoms. Not only do you have fey as a major factor in the Stolen Lands, but you have Sevenarches, a major portal to Farie. In addition you have what ever other fey may exist in the vast wildernesses that are undefined. So while it may not be the most common thing, if any place in Golarion makes me think of fey it is the River Kingdoms.
I actually like that you don't really create new abilities, but still made something new as a whole. It's mechanically solid and fits the theme.
good template use, writing is decent. not much RK tie in.
in a stand alone comparison to a base paladin, i think this is a pretty balanced archetype. that said, i think you fall into the same trap as the other paladin submission by messing with the code/alignment restriction. paladins are an attractive dip for Cha based classes as is and when you dramatically reduce the restrictions of their code (which you did) they become even more so. since i already mentioned this on the other thread i'll expand it here: an oracle of nature 1 with the nature's whisper revelation picks up a breastplate on the way to 2nd level, with his light shield and 20 cha (yes that's a big investment in most campaigns, but it certainly happens) he's at a 22 AC (RAW, possibly 20 RAI); at second level he takes green knight, which fits thematically, and 1/day against the BBEG he can smite, giving him 27 AC, at 2nd level (plus the +5 hit, +1 damage, and the ability to ignore DR)- all without that pesky requirement to remain strictly lawful that usually deters that sort of thing.
The oracle can do that now with the base paladin class. This just means a CG one can do something a LG one can already do. There is still a code the oracle must follow, it just now may be one that fits with the character.
I also have found players much more frequently slip towards lawful than slip chaotic. My games may be wierd like that, with lawful more frequently played but having fewer alignment changes in games.
Just the name invigorates thoughts of Arthurian legends. I'm a sucker for that.
Didn't like what you did to Smite Evil, but I understood you were trying to give a power up considering most games don't go that route for enemies. That said, a smart DM would incorporate those more anyway to work with his player so I'm not completely sold.
I'm also not a fan to giving the vorpal special ability, but it's not going to be seen for a long time (20th level to my understanding) so it's really not a big deal.
Nature's Lure and ranger spell list. I get it for the flavor.
I like this one. It get's my vote.
The oracle can do that now with the base paladin class. This just means a CG one can do something a LG one can already do. There is still a code the oracle must follow, it just now may be one that fits with the character.
I also have found players much more frequently slip towards lawful than slip chaotic. My games may be wierd like that, with lawful more frequently played but having fewer alignment changes in games.
my problem is that this code is much less restrictive- "a [normal] paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents," there are a lot of demands in that, some of which can get you into serious trouble, enough that most people (even if they "slip toward lawful") don't want to take them on just for smite evil 1/day, or even divine grace; the restriction that you "respect the sanctity of nature and the free will of all living beings, seek to undo the schemes of evil fey, and punish those who harm or threaten innocents" is loose enough that a huge number of good bards/oracles/sorcerers/summoners/etc could easily live up to it with little inconvenience. that's my big concern. if this was a PFS legal archetype i think there would be an outrageous number of characters running around with 2 levels of paladin.
Alright -- I think most people know I HATE variant alignment paladins. I really do, a paladin is LG. Notice the period, it's there for a reason.
With that said I like this archetype. I think the reason why is it doesn't come off as a paladin that's had the serial number filed off, it comes off as its own thing.
Probably this is due to flavor and how well you tied abilities in for it, so congrats -- you got me to like something I normally hate.
I really like this archetype. I wasn't very impressed with your rules-fu, but you didn't make any mistakes (only choices that weren't exciting). So, you come out ahead in my books.
Keep it up, and good luck in this and future rounds.
Boo to LG-only paladins and the grognard adherents who so stubbornly insist on keeping them that way in subsequent revisions of rule sets. This one gets my vote just for daring to break that taboo.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Boo to LG-only paladins and the grognard adherents who so stubbornly insist on keeping them that way in subsequent revisions of rule sets. This one gets my vote just for daring to break that taboo.
I dream of the universe in which 3e killed the paladin alignment restriction. I suspect that, just like race-based class restrictions (*cough* the dreaded dwarven wizard *cough*), we'd have already forgotten that such a restriction ever existed.
The alignment restriction on Paladins, while iconic, has always done more harm for the class than good (no puns intended). I rarely see people pick paladins because few enjoy being shoehorned into a specific alignment - especially when LG is so hard to play without becoming obnoxious to the rest of the party.
So...
It's refreshing to see the Green Knight break that mold while still respecting some of the core concepts (e.g. devoted champion w/ a code of conduct). One thing though... why swap out one strict alignment for another? The CG alignment is fine. But if you want to make a Paladin that's more appealing to players, why not allow the Green Knight for any good alignment?
Great archetype Charlie. I'm definitely using this in my games. Cheers.
i'm not trying to say that you couldn't make a paladin without the code/restrictive alignment- what i am absolutely saying is that the paladin as written needs the code for more than just flavor/roleplaying reasons. the class as it stands right now is pretty front-loaded; that makes sense when they get their big drawback (the code) at 1st level , but if you remove that drawback they just get too much too fast. a 2 level dip gets +2 BAB, +3 to 2 saves, a (admittedly small, and not scaling) free self-heal, and you get to add your Cha. mod to all 3 saves (all the time) plus your AC and all your attack rolls (for attacks that get +2 damage) against one BBEG/day. no other class gives that much in 2 levels (maybe the monk, but they also have alignment restrictions and a major prohibition, against wearing armor, at 1st level).
'fixing' the alignment restriction on paladins is not something that can be done in an archetype (nor should it be)- it requires reworking (or at least changing the level you get) smite evil and/or divine grace. at least, that's my honest opinion.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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*shrug* I've seen it said in numerous places, by numerous people, including the 3e design team, that the Paladin code and alignment are not balancing elements of the class. The paladin is just not that good, and the restrictions are just not that meaningful. 3e jettisoned the days of balancing mechanical benefits with rp penalties, and that includes the paladin, which is absolutely fine and balanced without them.
Edit: The same point was made by the 3e design team back in the day regarding the monk. Again, the alignment restriction is for flavor, not balance, and neither class is problematic if you remove the alignment restrictions, even from a multi-classing dip perspective. The barbarian gives a lot of goodies in the first 2 levels as well. To the extent a dip problem existed, Paizo has further mitigated it by increasing the benefits to the base classes at higher levels, and the dip strategy loses out on those benefits.
I never understood why the Paladin's alignment was written as inseparable from their code. It's a restriction that makes the class undesirable to players. And it's just not necessary.
The Green Knight does a great job of proving that Paladins can stick to their core concepts w/o being forced into LG. I love this variant and it's a Paladin I would actually play (that's saying a lot... I have never once considered a paladin character).
Yeah my argument isn't based on mechanics and I freely acknowledge that -- it's simply that paladin's are LG.
However I think we are moving a bit far afield considering this is supposed to be the OP's moment to shine.
Again as someone that doesn't like alternate alignment paladins in general I think this is a good archetype.
I think we are moving a bit far afield considering this is supposed to be the OP's moment to shine.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka JoelF847
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I thought this was a fairly servicable archtype, but overall it was too logical and obvious in what it did mechanically. The concept of a CG foresty paladin is something a bit new, but I felt the ability swaps were pretty flat. Yes, they make sense, but they don't really bring anything new to the table. This is really a paladin/ranger(druid) hybrid.
In addition, while I'm not saying you can't do a CG paladin, I think to do it right, you would have to do an alternate class, along the line of the anti-paladin, and an archetype doesn't give enough room to change the paladin ENOUGH to do other alignment versions of them. If you had more word count for a full alternate class, then you could have kept these safe ability swaps, and then done more with some other abilities to help the greenknight really stand out.
Combined with not much of a specific River Kingdoms tie in, I wasn't particularly impressed with this entry. It has a seed of an idea, but just wasn't interesting enough beyond that to be exciting.
I think this is a great archetype, spot on for both flavour and execution. In fact, it was so "classic" in feel that I was worried it didn't already exist.
It is generally considered that the ranger spell list is by far weaker than the paladin spell list - so that is something to think about. A straight swap there is a serious power down for the pally. I'd be interested to know if you considered that.
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Also, why does this not have regeneration as the cap-stone ability? Regeneration is the fundamental ability that The Green Knight from mythology has.
Even though this archetype seems a little too simple for RPGSuperstar, they are effective at evoking the difference between a green knight and a paladin, and make thematic sense. I'm on the fence on this one, I'll have to finish looking at the other archetypes before I cast my vote.
