OK this came about when I was talking about gunslingers but really my issue isn't with the gunslinger class but more about balancing firearms which also will have a effect on the gunslinger class.
In short what I feel needs to happen is the gunslinger class needs a mild buff and firearms need a small Nerf. Let me be a bit more specific.
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The main issue is with the fact that firearms target touch AC. I would like to point out that this is a property of the weapon itself NOT a property of the gunslinger class. Thus it has to be ruled that Guns are extremely accurate compared to crossbows at a increased cost to use.
Bit more specific I wanna look at Revolvers and advanced firearms, the misfire of non advanced firearms helps to offset the unbalance of them but in a unsatisfactory way.
Why should a Firearm allow a a ancient Red dragon to be hit on a unmodified roll of 5. That's +33 effective bonus against that monster. That's a hell of a difference. The firearm is in almost all respects balanced based on the crossbow. I think it should be a bit stronger due to it costing more, being exotic, and being harder to gain. But over all the difference shouldn't be to huge and it shouldn't get better as you lvl it should stay close to par.
It was obvious that the designers thought that firearms should be more accurate to offset there shorter range and higher cost of use. To that end I was thinking maybe a flat +6 attack bonus to the firearm. This Means at the 3rd range increment which should be 61'-80' (for revolvers) (or is it 60-79?)the weapon would fire without modification. This makes firearms more accurate then crossbows at close range less accurate at long range but otherwise very similar. The +5 represents the firearms ability to puncture Armor and difficulty in dodging.
Again I wish to point out that we are talking about firearms themselves not the gunslinger class so saying that the ability to hit touch AC is balanced to the fighters bonus remember that a fighter with a single feat possibly 2 can use firearms Assuming the DM don't ban such feats and allows firearms in his game. I will get into gunslinger after the firearm issue is figured out.
**We will assume for this topic that it is a fighter using a revolver.**
I think the firearms are fine as is, the misfire is actually the balance.
Crossbows are already under powered, so trying to dial down firearms to the power level of a crossbow is kinda silly. Make crossbows hit touch AC also would actually help bring them in line with bows.
For the example I will focus on the revolver in the hands of a fighter.
A Revolver misfire is not that bad and only happens on a 1. Personally I use crit fumble so a 1 in my games might cause the bow string to brake or weapon to be dropped or character to trip depending on the situation. Thus misfire is not much of a draw back. It is also a very very luck based draw back.
The ability to ignore Armor and shields (not attack touch AC as natural armor isn't ignored) is a +4 enchantment (brilliance weapon) Obviously the designers thought that it was a significant ability. IT is just barely below Vorpal and eats up half of the weapons max enhancements. Top it off thats a much lesser version then simply targeting touch AC.
Again this version of it does not effect Natural armor. Perhaps though that is the solution. Perhaps firearms should act as brilliance does, meaning it Peirce shields and armor but natural armors are not ignored. This would defiantly fix the seemingly broken nature of the weapon at higher lvls.
Touch AC = Never missing. This may seam like a small issue but as a GM I notice the difference a LOT the big bads and those huge bulky tanky creatures start to mean nothing and become laughable. Bout the only two types of creatures that effect the firearms wielder becomes monks who snatch bullets out of the air and have great touch AC and casters who use magic to mess with the firearms massively.
And since firearms are semi rare to rare it makes little sense for many casters to walk around with a anti firearms spell readied unless they know ahead of time what there going to b facing.
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If you don't think a Flat +6 bonus would be proper to replace touch AC
What if firearms where treated the same as brilliance weapons when it comes to Ac targeted, meaning it targeted touch AC + Natural armor. The only difference would be that the creatures who rely on natural armor to have any form of armor (99% of the monsters) aren't guaranteed hit all the time. in short, soon as a bullet is fired the bullet in effect gains the Brilliant Energy enchantment until it strikes
I run armor (and natural armor as DR) as per the rule set in UC. Because of this I find guns to not be a problem at all as written.
Against a dragon a brilliant energy weapon has a leg up on firearms with this method, so I find it well balanced. I've had several gun slingers in my campaigns and never once did they outshine the others and in the shackles campaign I'm running now, the gunslinger actually is being way out shined by the barbarian.
to those thinking the firearms is fine targeting touch AC would you think it was balanced if it read
Firearm gains a +35 attack roll. This is the difference of a Ancient red dragons Touch Ac and it's normal/Flat footed AC. Also don't think this is the largest AC difference amongst lvl 20+ monsters cuz the numbers go up. Throwout the MM Touch Ac is 10-20 lower then actual AC normally bringing it to the roll a 2 to hit category for all attacks.
The player in my game after stacking all his penalties for extra shots and a couple range increments has never needed to roll above a 5 to hit and I commonly use stuff of 2 CR higher then the party as my players tend to min max. On average the Gunslinger does more damage then the Orcish Barbarian who is using the great club and has a 20 Str before raging. (granted gunslinger gets 3 attacks due to rapid shot compared to barbarians 2) but the gunslinger never misses while the barbarian misses from time to time. The single reason is that firearms target touch AC which is 99% of the time MUCH easier to hit.
Attacking touch AC is basically like saying the only reason I am rolling is to try to avoid a 1 and possibly get lucky and get a 20. Past the 1 or the 20 there's no point in rolling against touch AC of MOST monsters.
Even as a player with my alchemist I have never missed on a bomb attack in the 7 levels I have used it. I find the attack roll pretty close to pointless and often include the attack roll in with my damage roll as a formality. Course when that 1 finally comes up I feel sorry for the poor person who gets hit with the bomb but past that the roll is pretty close to pointless.
Well I did some from the hip math ages ago. But the result was that unless advanced guns are in they are not OP in the slightest.
That being said I agree on the premise that they should not target touch AC. But my reason is that it makes no damn sense.
Okay sure if we take a modern riffle bullet and fire it at a fullplate the armor is not gona do a whole lot, actually it might even worsen the damage because of shrapnel. Touch AC makes sense here.
But then let's take a musket. Against +5 Adamantium full plate. Yeah the lead ball punching trough that like it was nothing, not going to be happening.
Heck unless we start talking about Anti vehicle weapons that is not going to happen.
I would not go with flat bonus as solution, guns aren't really more accurate than bows for example barring modern(ish) firearms.
Flatfooted might be a good solution to give the firearms the edge. Altough that does mess with sneak attack thing. Could use as if flatfooted in relation to AC if you don't want it included.
I run armor (and natural armor as DR) as per the rule set in UC. Because of this I find guns to not be a problem at all as written.
Against a dragon a brilliant energy weapon has a leg up on firearms with this method, so I find it well balanced. I've had several gun slingers in my campaigns and never once did they outshine the others and in the shackles campaign I'm running now, the gunslinger actually is being way out shined by the barbarian.
I have actually considered using armor as DR method specifically because of issues such as these. Just doesn't feel like D&D though. but failing a commonly acceptable solution on how to handle firearms I might just give it another chance.
I just don't see using armor and allowing a weapon that never needs to roll and has unlimited uses as acceptable.
Well I did some from the hip math ages ago. But the result was that unless advanced guns are in they are not OP in the slightest.
That being said I agree on the premise that they should not target touch AC. But my reason is that it makes no damn sense.
Okay sure if we take a modern riffle bullet and fire it at a fullplate the armor is not gona do a whole lot, actually it might even worsen the damage because of shrapnel. Touch AC makes sense here.
But then let's take a musket. Against +5 Adamantium full plate. Yeah the lead ball punching trough that like it was nothing, not going to be happening.
Heck unless we start talking about Anti vehicle weapons that is not going to happen.
I would not go with flat bonus as solution, guns aren't really more accurate than bows for example barring modern(ish) firearms.
Flatfooted might be a good solution to give the firearms the edge. Altough that does mess with sneak attack thing. Could use as if flatfooted in relation to AC if you don't want it included.
I had actually brought a similar situation up in a different thread, I used a iron wall 3" thick as a base deciding western style firearms would probably have a hard time shooting threw a 2" thick steal/iron wall. Thus using the same hardness and HP a +1 breastplate would likewise be hard to shoot threw as it is ruffly the same as a 2" steal wall. Now when you get to +5 armor; +5 leather armor has more HP then a 3" steal wall and a better hardness. (+2 hardness +10 HP per +1 enchantment)
Thus in this respect it makes no sense to target touch AC ether. I was more focused on the mechanical aspects. I had suggested that it targets flatfooted or as if flatfooted AC but people seamed to think that it left the firearm to weak compared to Bows. Thus I figured a Flat +6 bonus might even it out since bows have better range and can do better damage (except for lvl 5 gunslingers who get a damage boost by adding dex to damage)
**Edit: also the flat bonus perhaps +5 instead of +6 represents the difficulty in dodging not a increase in accuracy. Thus saying that a firearm is harder to dodge and deflect then a arrow is but that armor still has a effect on the bullet just a lessened effect compared to arrows swords and other attack methods.
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As for why I used crossbow as a base is that like firearms there optimized by having a few levels in a specific class to allow Dex to be added to damage. Thus with feats and junk both can do 1D8 + dex damage and reload as a free actions. requiring a few feats and a few lvls in a specific class/build.
TO me targeting Touch AC is just to strong of a ability for a weapon to have as if you look in the monster manual it negates many monsters AC
I run armor (and natural armor as DR) as per the rule set in UC. Because of this I find guns to not be a problem at all as written.
Against a dragon a brilliant energy weapon has a leg up on firearms with this method, so I find it well balanced. I've had several gun slingers in my campaigns and never once did they outshine the others and in the shackles campaign I'm running now, the gunslinger actually is being way out shined by the barbarian.
I have actually considered using armor as DR method specifically because of issues such as these. Just doesn't feel like D&D though. but failing a commonly acceptable solution on how to handle firearms I might just give it another chance.
I just don't see using armor and allowing a weapon that never needs to roll and has unlimited uses as acceptable.
Well, D&D was the first to introduce the armor as DR in unearthed Arcana (IIRC), Pathfinder just made it actually useable. That red dragon is going to reduce so much damage that even if hit on anything other than a natural 1 the entire party is in full panic mode. Which is as it should be against a dragon. To me, and this is just a personal opinion, in moving armor to DR — I feel as though I have recaptured the feeling in combat that I want the PCs to have - some creatures just can't be taken head on with a sword - and now they have to be more creative and work together more. It enhanced the game at our table.
Wizard damage is still relatively easy to mitigate being limited in number per day and normally offering a save for half, greatly reduced or no effect.
a Mage caste Scorching ray a pretty mean spell no save targets touch Ac and deals decent damage. So the mage at lvl 20 deals 12 D6 we will say it's even a maximized and enhanced to deal 12D6 +50% maximized or 108 damage.
Gunslinger at lvl 20 with +1 speed revolver deals on the lower end 72 damage. But on the higher end 114+ damage. then there is of course DR to reduce the end damage and Sr to negate all effects. Dr is the easier of those 2 to bypass I might add. Wizards not so strong now unless they get lucky and there top spells don't get resisted or saved against.
I haven't looked into pathfinder Version for DR as armor I kinda messed with 3.5 version of it but found it clunky and not really useful. I might have to study up on the new version see if pathfinder smoothed it out much.
*Edit: The players was dealing more damage all-be it with more effort when he was using the double barreled firearms before I allowed the revolver, least this way he gets less attacks per turn even if he don't suffer as bad of misfire chances, again a 5-10% chance of misfiring happens amazingly rarely even after a few hundred rolls. And I watch his rolls closely waiting for it to happen.
Well, D&D was the first to introduce the armor as DR in unearthed Arcana (IIRC), Pathfinder just made it actually useable. That red dragon is going to reduce so much damage that even if hit on anything other than a natural 1 the entire party is in full panic mode. Which is as it should be against a dragon. To me, and this is just a personal opinion, in moving armor to DR — I feel as though I have recaptured the feeling in combat that I want the PCs to have - some creatures just can't be taken head on with a sword - and now they have to be more creative and work together more. It enhanced the game at our table.
Just read the pathfinder rules for Armor as DR, there pretty similar to 3.5 rules. I might give them a try though largely they still seam kinda complicated compared to simple AC specially in the since that flatfooted flanking and other such attack bonuses become much weaker while damage bonuses become more needed. It does resolve the issue of always or never hitting specially at higher lvls, in your experience how well does it work at lvl 15-20 ?? does ti lend well to dex based races? I imagine with a higher focus on damage dodge based creatures might have a better chance of dodging. feats like power attack would pretty much always be used course most often they are always used anyhows.
Any other players try using the armor as Dr method?
Wizard damage is still relatively easy to mitigate being limited in number per day and normally offering a save for half, greatly reduced or no effect.
a Mage caste Scorching ray a pretty mean spell no save targets touch Ac and deals decent damage. So the mage at lvl 20 deals 12 D6 we will say it's even a maximized and enhanced to deal 12D6 +50% maximized or 108 damage.
Gunslinger at lvl 20 with +1 speed revolver deals on the lower end 72 damage. But on the higher end 114+ damage. then there is of course DR to reduce the end damage and Sr to negate all effects. Dr is the easier of those 2 to bypass I might add. Wizards not so strong now unless they get lucky and there top spells don't get resisted or saved against.
I haven't looked into pathfinder Version for DR as armor I kinda messed with 3.5 version of it but found it clunky and not really useful. I might have to study up on the new version see if pathfinder smoothed it out much.
*Edit: The players was dealing more damage all-be it with more effort when he was using the double barreled firearms before I allowed the revolver, least this way he gets less attacks per turn even if he don't suffer as bad of misfire chances, again a 5-10% chance of misfiring happens amazingly rarely even after a few hundred rolls. And I watch his rolls closely waiting for it to happen.
I get that you're trying to give the player creative freedom, but, I highly suggest limiting guns in your setting to "emerging." You'll retain the flavor you want to preserve, and the balance of the guns might feel better for you. And with that you might not have to feel forced to move to the DR system. Just remember it (armor as DR) is a option, so is limiting it to emerging guns, or combining that. As much as I am the first one to point out DM fiat, I have also found that the players feel less cheated (I know that's not your intent) if you go with an option in published work than if you "nerf" mechanics via house rule. In some cases the DR can be be too much for players who don't lean more towards balanced to optimized classes. Another good thing is to bring this concern to your table, and present them with a list of proposed solutions (to include armor as DR) and let them decide which solution they are most comfortable with.
Well, D&D was the first to introduce the armor as DR in unearthed Arcana (IIRC), Pathfinder just made it actually useable. That red dragon is going to reduce so much damage that even if hit on anything other than a natural 1 the entire party is in full panic mode. Which is as it should be against a dragon. To me, and this is just a personal opinion, in moving armor to DR — I feel as though I have recaptured the feeling in combat that I want the PCs to have - some creatures just can't be taken head on with a sword - and now they have to be more creative and work together more. It enhanced the game at our table.
Just read the pathfinder rules for Armor as DR, there pretty similar to 3.5 rules. I might give them a try though largely they still seam kinda complicated compared to simple AC specially in the since that flatfooted flanking and other such attack bonuses become much weaker while damage bonuses become more needed. It does resolve the issue of always or never hitting specially at higher lvls, in your experience how well does it work at lvl 15-20 ?? does ti lend well to dex based races? I imagine with a higher focus on damage dodge based creatures might have a better chance of dodging. feats like power attack would pretty much always be used course most often they are always used anyhows.
Any other players try using the armor as Dr method?
At high level play it's still very effective, however dex based races need to rely on enhancement to the defense rating, through magic or items. But I have seen some good defense ratings that had me missing on rolls of 12 or less at 17th level. If those character add blink or mirror image to themselves.... Well it's a much harder to hit target. And many bad guys after missing a couple of times will opt for easier to hit targets.
How about not using advanced firearms? It's as simple as telling your party to say "no advanced firearms in this campaign." No extra rules, no convoluted fixes, just no using three weapons.
Early firearms are balanced due to their extreme reload time at early levels, not to mention the sheer cost of firing them in extended combat (something like 11 gold a shot). It is extremely hard to get the same amount of damage with a early firearms as with advanced firearm without using multiple guns, weapon cords, and quick draw (all of which is rendered moot after your first full round attack since you can't reload all of them). Simply rule out advanced firearms and you're golden.
Edit: Now that I think about it, a level 13+ pistolero can reload as a free action using alchemic cartridges, and never misfire, but they're still only hitting touch AC when they're within 20 feet of the enemy if they use early firearms (which is a pretty dangerous place to be if you're facing level appropriate enemies).
Wizard damage is still relatively easy to mitigate being limited in number per day and normally offering a save for half, greatly reduced or no effect.
a Mage caste Scorching ray a pretty mean spell no save targets touch Ac and deals decent damage. So the mage at lvl 20 deals 12 D6 we will say it's even a maximized and enhanced to deal 12D6 +50% maximized or 108 damage.
Gunslinger at lvl 20 with +1 speed revolver deals on the lower end 72 damage. But on the higher end 114+ damage. then there is of course DR to reduce the end damage and Sr to negate all effects. Dr is the easier of those 2 to bypass I might add. Wizards not so strong now unless they get lucky and there top spells don't get resisted or saved against.
I haven't looked into pathfinder Version for DR as armor I kinda messed with 3.5 version of it but found it clunky and not really useful. I might have to study up on the new version see if pathfinder smoothed it out much.
*Edit: The players was dealing more damage all-be it with more effort when he was using the double barreled firearms before I allowed the revolver, least this way he gets less attacks per turn even if he don't suffer as bad of misfire chances, again a 5-10% chance of misfiring happens amazingly rarely even after a few hundred rolls. And I watch his rolls closely waiting for it to happen.
Why are you comparing a 20th level Gunslinger with a +4 weapon to a 20th level Wizard using a 2nd level spell?
You're talking a lot about advanced firearms, yet in the official Pathfinder setting (and every other active game I know of) they're either non-existent or exceedingly rare (reserved for very high levels, when the wizards are making Wishes).
I am suprised at the number of players and DM that think targeting touch AC isn't a issue.
It seams a basic thought that a character NEVER missing does not effect combat. This really isn't the case. They included all those penalties to hit on powers and feats and have a attack roll for a reason so easily negating the attack roll since only a extremely bad roll is a miss kinda negates all the point of AC.
Be back to advanced D&D when at high lvl it was impossible to miss and the attack rolls where mere formality. I used to hate that system, (back then it was because the attack bonus quickly out did the hard cap on AC)
The AC system is balanced so that players have ruffly a 50% chance to hit a monster give or take about 15%. This chance got a lot less by the 4th attack.
Targeting touch Ac means the firearm will hit with all 6 attacks while a bow will likely hit with 3 or 4 out of 7.
Assuming double barreled and quick draw then on round 1 the firearm will hit with 10 attacks and that's not even duel wielding which by the way they could do and still never miss, so they could technically add +6 attacks to that for there offhand attacks.
Targeting Touch AC ignoring all Natural AC is no small thing and is extreamly easy to abuse
-Edit combined double posts into one larger post
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yes yes I know a roll of a 1 and the gun brakes but then gunslingers have powers for that to, further if your planning on only firing the gun once on the first round then going oom for a round or two 16 attacks will likely down the boss anyhows. That's not even considering some of the enchantments that make reloading even less of a issue or the ones that make ammo costs not a issue at all. Or the fact that reloading can become a free action. It gets worse and worse the deeper into the matter you look into it. And this isn't even considering advanced firearms.
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thus far I have had little trouble with firearms up to lvl 5, mild troubles with them after that but the trend is increasing the more monsters start relying on natural armor and none dodge armor types as part of there CR. Targeting touch AC has ment the Gunslinger has only missed a couple times and those where because the monster actually had decent touch Ac almost comparable to it's normal AC.
Best balance to all this has ben the cost for bullets but now that's becoming much less of a balance. Would be even worse if I had let the caster learn the spells to enhance the gunslinger and reduce bullet costs, but I ruled that he would have had no reason to learn them never being around guns before and stopped that issue.
I think it's because when you realize that several archer builds do the same damage or more while targeting regular ac.... that you'll stop and think "if I nerf this which does the same damage basically they'll just do that"
when you give them DR rather than AC, your optimizers will then look towards paladins "smite, ignore ALL DR!" etc... and again you'll be "thrwarted"
The low levels are where gunslingers sorta shine... they hit every time, but are in general reloading every other round, or standing still to reload that round... Meanwhile everyone else is just charging and attacking.
at mid levels, they start reloading faster, and can move and shoot, etc, even reliably hit with primary and even 30-65% of itteratives...
But at this point you have things like rage pounce barbarians, who shrug off magic and hit at the same rate for more...
Higher levels, the gunslinger does great damage, hits most the time, even on iteratives, but is not really exceeding those optimized for damage against their targets, and have less survivability than many of them (closer, less saves, less ac etc) I realize these are generalizations, but they seem about right from my experiences, and don't over power the other "striker" classes/builds....
If they were standing above them rather than on parity, I'd think this would call for a nerf or adjustment, as it stands they simply don't when it comes down to gunplay.
It doesn't matter if they hit every time, if the classes that don't hit every time do as much or more damage.
The gunslinger has More HP then the barb granted that's because of lucky HP rolls (I have players reroll HP that is less then whatever HD they are rolling which helps assure decent HP and helps make the Die size matter more then a potentially +2 as it guarantees a higher minimal and max HP for that lvl)
Gunslingers saves are definitely no worse then the fighters.
Needing only to focus on Dex for AC attack and damage other stats can be lower in order to milk Dex which also means AC is easily comparable or better at higher lvls specially with bracers of armor or other such methods of maximizing AC effectively.
round 1 16 attacks that hit 95% of the time and do x4 damage 5% of that 95% and at range spending 0 grit at lvl 20 1 grit at LVL 15
Reloading as a free action meaning that it is capable of furthering the ability to maintain steady damage.
This is all without advanced firearms I might add, and not even going into what happens when you add a few lvl of pally for smite or some other similar combo since really you have most of the good gunslinger stuff by say lvl 13 or so, leaving like 7 lvls to grab some lvls in other classes and really grasp the extra damage (granted lvl 20 gunslinger power is very nice)
Firearms deal 1D8 + magical + DEX + feats damage with as many or more shots as a Bow and focused stat means probably better stat then the bow wielder who is splitting stats. Oh this is also assuming double barreled handgun which is a reasonable assumption if using non advanced guns. More shots then a bow, likely more damage per shot, and never miss. I fail to see how the bow even slightly compares.
At lvl 7 the gunslinger in the current game out damages the Orcish barbarian every round reliably. The Barbarian does have a +15 unraged damage bonus and hits pretty reliably only missing once every 2 or 3 rounds against common targets and every other round or so against higher AC monsters.
With revolver the gunslinger does roughly 36 minimal damage with double barrel single wielded he would be doing ruffly 60 minimal damage (assuming no 1s where rolled)
Barbarian does about 54 max damage and 34 min damage assuming both attacks actually manage to land the second often requiring a 8-14 roll on the D20 meaning about 30-60% chance to land it.
At higher lvl I see this damage tilting much further in the gunslingers favor before lvl 5 the gunslinger did notably less damage then the barbarian but always hit so it wasn't a problem (he was also using double barreled back then which helped his damage a bit)
I allowed the revolver because frankly it actually nerfed his damage output per combat, only reason he didn't go back to double barrel was he liked the look/mental immage and knew I didn't like the number of attacks that double barreled weapons allowed him
so you're assuming they get 16 attacks and hit 95% of the time, and ignore misfires out of 16 attacks, also it's clear you are in the allow weapon cords to let you reload two 1hand fire arms in each hand simultaneously.
(I find out of everything, this sticks me wrong but there's no clear area on this rule wise, so lets not get into that debate)
Has some folks comparing DPR with a fairly standard set of information...
What we see in that thread is
Corvin Black, the Powerful Pistolero
Normal DPR: 79.56
Bonus Attack: +26.52
+1 to Damage: +3.315
Up Close & Personal: +9.5625 per Grit Point
DPR w/3 Grit: 108.2475
Then we see these:
The shielder
full attack w/ ranger's focus + PA:
26/21 shield attack avg damage per hit= 42
.95*1.05*42= 41.895
.9*1.05*42= 39.69
dpr~ 81.585
Sam the somewhat Samurai
Full Attack DPR 76.08.
+1 to hit DPR 4.96
+1 to damage DPR 2.09
Brace(using the rule no -2 AC is applied):DPR 99.54
Hasted DPR 125.92
Do you see what's happening here? even at lvl 10 where you claim to see things get absurd, there's math to show you that it's not how it's working statistically.
Since you said you had a orc-barbarian, I'm not sure what you're allowing and not allowing, and that of course changes the scene alot, but I don't think the problem here lies with the gunslinger.
Now add those characters into a fight against a high lvl monster.
Lets say for arguments sake that the barbarian does 2X the damage per hit then the gunslinger and the gunslinger gets a mere 1 extra attack at lvl 20.
This tilts the tables in the barbarians favor.
They are fighting a ancient red, a hard fight for sure
fighter gets +20 BAB, +5 STR Bonus +5 magical bonus and we will say +5 bonus from other mic sources which should be within reason for a lvl 20
so barbarian has a +35/30/25/20
Now the gunslinger has +20 BAB and +3 Dex, he has a slew of +1 guns so he has to reload less and he dumped some of there enchants into extra damaging powers to help keep up with the barb in damage. he also using rapid shot so suffering -2 and of course he uses double barrel so -4 there. he has a +18 to his attacks.
so he hits at 18/13/8/3
Target has a AC 38 touch AC 5
fighter needs to roll 3/8/13/18
Gunslinger needs to roll 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 4x double barrel quick draw dropping gun after fireing or even reloading after fireing (though I believe free action reload is possible)
fighter does we will say 40 damage a hit and rolls 4 10's
bar therefor does 80 damage
Gunslinger rolls all 3s and does a mere 10 damage a hit because he is so poorly made
he does 90 damage
This is assuming a pretty poorly made gunslinger and not the best made fighter.
Optimize a bit more and the fighter pulls in a extra hit and the gunslinger pics up duel wielding and magical firearms and more then doubles his damage output.
I could detail it out even further but my point really is that hitting on a 2 compared to a 3-18 is a pretty large difference
Perhaps not a huge issue to all but I think it is problematic, perhaps as a GM I prefer if the attack roll has a meaning to non casters, hell at high lvls even casters often times goto roll to hit there jst targeting sr instead of AC
No chance to miss becomes why bother to roll, evolves to I do X damage is the battle over, why don't we just say everything dies. hey how about that new video game I hear it's pretty fun
Never missing and killing junk to fast is why we killed the AD&D game that we had going (I wasn't gming and he was buffing the monsters notably and still we never missed and stuff died but that was a system failure at high lvl thus it just got boring it was eather to hard or to easy but there wasn't much real luck factor and as a player I disliked that as a dm he hated it and over all we scrapped the game as it lost all interest. That chance of missing actually effects how the game plays out.
And yea I am basing it off of a what if and from only 7 lvls almost 8 lvls of game play but in those 8 lvls it has become a minor issue and that issue is growing.
1. Dragons are casters, so if you're expecting your PCs to buff themselves, you should assume the dragon does the same.
2. You're stacking things in Gunslinger's favor by using a dragon, who has unusually low touch AC for its CR due to its' size and low Dex. Many CR 20s (Pit Fiend and Balor, going just from Bestiary 1) have touch ACs in 18-20 range or above.
I'm not going to re-hash the math that can be found in many threads, go look for yourself a bit and see how it works out.
at lvl 20, assuming you poured everything into dex possible this is what we see for damage. (and this is going off your assumption you can reload and sustain this barrage using weapon cords, which in my world and many you cannot as reloading to many is a "fine coordination" type of action regardless if a free action or not many won't let you bypass the hand free to reload requirement with a cheap piece of rope)
Dex starts off at 20, +6 item, +5 from levels +2 tome.
+5 guns x2 (holy, flaming, acid, ice) 1d8+2d6+1d6+1d6+1d6, although you might go for increased range etc, but that's not a factor for you, so we're sticking with the 20ft range increment... which also means you have a max of 100ft attack range)
If you went pure gunslinger (which I wouldn't from a optimization standpoint) your damage looks like this on average.
19dmg from the variables +11 from dex, and +5 from the gun.
So your min and your max is as follows per shot
22-54.
Your to hit starts at BAB 20, +11dex, we'll say +3 from feats, and +5 from gun.
Total is +39, with your attack routine it's -6 total for two weapon fighting and firing dual barrels, so you're at a +33 on your routine is
+33/28/23/18/ (primary hand) and secondary hand is +33/28/23
so now you're wanting to take the big awesome ancient red dragon out solo, right because you can hit against touch, it's only a 5 after all, anyone can touch this guy without even trying...
So you walk up within 20ft and fire a shot off while you run...
And his turn he backs up, and breathes fire and melts stone where you're at. you get to make a reflex save (we'll assume you've got a +5 cloak of resists going and that you've bought a ring of fire resistance 20) Because you've prep'd for this fight well in advance and spent your whole life to kill this foe... lol...
he'll breathe his whole 20-200 fire damage on you, with a dc of 30 reflex, which you'll have a decent chance of making with your extreme dex focus and cloak you merely need a 8 or better to take half!
so you've just taken anywhere from alot of damage to maybe even none. then you take 20d6 fire damage on your turn, 0-100dmg from the lava (no save but you might be ready to avoid it by drinking a potion or having an item that'll let you not touch it somehow)
You've taken anywhere from 0-300 damage at this point, and all you've done is 22-54 damage, and you're STILL not in his touch range, because he moves faster than you do.
Now he's just toying with you and killing you in well, just a round or two.
Solor touch 11 AC 44
Balor AC 36 Touch 20 -one of the creatures better suited against touch AC
Pit feind AC 38 touch 18
Linnorm, Tarn AC 36 touch 10
Shoggoth AC 33 touch 15
Tarrasque AC 40 touch 5
Touch AC make a difference of about 15+ to the AC.
After calculating fighters attack bonus at this lvl I can see that touch Ac means so little simply because at the lv it seams nobody ever misses still. The fighter prob don't need to roll above a 2 until his 4th attack and then only maybe a 7 maybe less (targeting a AC 36)
That said I still see no reason mechanically that the firearm needs to target touch Ac.
I kinda figured the ability to target touch AC should have ben a gunslinger feature and calculated similar to the alchemists bombs where it is X times per day = to lvl + non dex stat mod
Gives gunslinger and other gun users reason to have non dex stat preferably a mental one, also brings it in line with every other attack in the game that targets touch AC being limited by times per day, further gives gunslingers more purpose past lvl 13 or so (forget at what lvl you can build for free action reload.)
Again in your examples you're ignoring the whole need to get into touch range at 20 freaking feet.
You'll normally be targeting AC, and with your bonuses to hit, and the penalties at ranged for you go from just -6 to now -8 or more, and you cannot hit them unless they are within 100ft.
Against these creatures, they will know your limitation and they will blast the hell out of you from range.
Your only advantage is the touch ac, and that's only good at 20ft, 40ft with grit... You can move, but then you can't do a full round attack, which drops you severely and also perpetually puts you out of touch attack range AND full attack range.
Bombs also aren't splash weapons that at lvl 20 deal 10d6+modifiers to the primary and 10+modifiers to all those in the splash zone (+ effects etc)
-edi-
You're focusing on the ability to target touch to the point of ignoring the entire class.
Your primary example of "zomg it's broken" I canz touch a dragon easy! Is one of the best examples of where your exact build is going to struggle!
Things that can fly, or move as fast as you and target you from a farther range or going to just flat out own you.
You cannot always touch AC and when you can't you're going against real AC in which every bow character has an advantage on you, and every melee character does as well!
Your examples of full attack options, are non-sensical outside of your perfect vacuum, because you're constantly having to move to due this "broken" attack. The fact that you are putting yourself in danger as a ranged character to do your "defining" thing should point out the flaws in your disbelief of what people are telling you.
I show you numbers at lvl 10 that shows them comparable or behind other characters, and you wave it off as sillyness. the gunslinger gets nothing new past lvl 13 that's of consequence to their combat. the classes that are doing more dpr will continue to do more dpr than a gunslinger with a questionable reload tactic while dual wielding double barrell pistols.
I guess at the root of it all the question I need to ask is why should firearms target touch AC from a mechanical standpoint.
Not stating why it shouldn't past no other weapon without magic does or class features.
Granted I will give that technicaly you could use alchemical fire to target touch AC almost as effectivly.... which is the single best argument I can think of
You're not going to be sneaking up on a ancient red dragon, just assume the place is alarmed or better (and guess what's on his list of spells...)
It has a 33 perception, you might be able to sneak up on him if you spent all your skill points, after all that'd get you to a 31 on your stealth...
He has things like wall of force etc available to him 7/day..., any lvl 6 spell he wants from wiz list or any lvl 5... and he knows contingency, there's nothing you're doing to this guy alone, and in person with a party there's nothing you're doing to him without targeting his AC, because he will just eat you.
I showed you the CR of his breath and the best reflex save you're getting at that point (actually you can probably get it two points higher, so 6+ a save, so you'll fail about 1/3rd the time)
Nice edit there lol... now my response looks silly.
If you have it target ac, what real reason other than flavor is there to play a gunslinger? Any serious bow character will make them cry without optimization.
If you were to get rid of the touch ac issue you would have to also get rid of misfire otherwise guns would be ludicrously sub-optimal, I would also make guns cheaper but that's neither here nor there. I would also give a double tap (manyshot feat).
Going to force myself to pull away from debating the fate of fighting such a beast cuz u r right I would use every dirty DM trick I could muster within reason to assure failure. the reflex max at lvl 20 reasonably is
reasonable reflex:
12 base
8 dex
1 Amber Spindle (ion stone +1 all saves cheap no slot used states that it stacks)
+5 Cloak of Resistance (+5 all saves and cheap)
+3 Enhancement to dex Belt of Physical Perfection (+6 enhancement to all phisical stats kinda spendy but not to bad at that lvl
+2/3 Book, Manual of Quickness of Action ( +5 inherent bonus to dex)spendy but hey it's dex which gunslingers focus on.
These are pretty standard items to have at higher lvl for a dex focused character.
This brings the save bonus to about +31 DEX and not much worse on fort a bit lower on will being the weakest of the saves at probably only +13 or so
Anyhows yea basically I don't see mechanicaly why it needs to target touch AC and so far have had it proven to be a pain in the arss to the point that I have considered banning firearms from player characters. I dislike having to alter the AC of NPc and monsters so the player might actualy miss it once in a while. I ended up targeting him a bit more and keeping him in malee range as often as possible after the first shot as well as having larger monsters focus fire him after he ignores there thick skin but this resulting in him not liking the combats so much as he feals it is picking on him because he targets touch AC and to a point he is correct, but then when a attack ignores all of a intelligent foes defense there going to pick on him more then others cuz things don't like fealing defenseless.
srry bout the edit I released that I was allowing myself to slip way off topic and soon woulda forgot what the intent of the thread was lol.
I can see removing misfire chance it is a good fluff and will come into play during crit fumbles much like sometimes bow strings brake in our games (not commonly just once in a blue moon about 1% chance on a fumble) Is so easy to ignore misfire chance anyhows, likewise I could see increasing range since range was actually one of the things firearms had over bows, they where easier to hit at greater ranges
Also I was thinking perhaps feats that allow a firearm to threaten at close range if the range wasn't increased.
Honestly the single largest and really the main reason to play a gunslinger should be for fluff reasons. It is only reason I allowed the current player to play one was I knew he wanted to use one for fluff reasons.
So for simplicity sake even if I for some reason am the only DM to find issue with a never miss weapon (though I do like gunslinger class getting a special feature to target touch AC X times per day.
Anyhows yea lets say we remove touch AC as a default option, how then would we fix firearms besides letting it hit touch AC, thoughts could be to allow it to hit as if it had brilliant energy, similar to its former power but does not ignore natural armor.
The fix to firearms is: don't use advanced firearms.
Early firearms (the ones that are setting-appropriate to Pathfinder) only have the "Target Touch AC" rule for the first range increment. Which is to say, the 10-40 foot radius around those CR 20 creatures known as the "killzone".
The other fix to firearms is: Even dropping a weapon on a weapon cord, you still have to retrieve that weapon. And that's a swift action. You only get one of those each round (unless you sacrifice full-attack / move actions).
So reloading, even advanced weapons goes:
Free action: drop pistol 1
Free action: reload pistol 2
Swift action: grab pistol 1
Free action: drop pistol 2
Free action: reload pistol 1
Move action: grab pistol 2
So you're losing your full-attack that round. Sorry.
Single pistol free reload = 9 shots per round with a early age weapon 6 shots with advanced revolver. (yes early age double barrel gun is actually stronger the advanced, and you can get misfire chance of 0
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
Touch AC at any range increment tell me again how advanced firearms are the issue??? Also consider Range increases enchantments and feats to reduce the need for grit expense. I could just as easily ruled that advanced firearms used early age rules but acted similar to repeating crossbow in that they held 6 shots, with free action reload it is not difference power wise 6 shots or 1 per free reload.
to avoid further argument lets assume that the touch AC is a broken feature because to me it causes issues, What advice could I get in ways to balance the firearm if it did not have this feature that as the DM I have a issue with in my at home games.
In short the bottom line is in my current ongoing game touch AC has started to effect the overall enjoyment of the game in that the gunslinger is outclassing the rest of the party and at least 1 player with a slightly less then optimal build but not horrid build as well as another player with a pretty good build have begun to feel useless only the optimized barbarian in the game don't feel useless and he just got done playing a game as a bard so he probably feels super useful for a change lol
So if 2 of 4 players feel that there character are very sub par because the gunslinger outshines them by that much and if me as a DM I feel like the gunslinger targeting touch AC feels like a issue then it would indicate that for a home game basis it should be fixed. I wish to fix it in a manor that leaves the player on par with the others and not feeling weakened to greatly.
I came here because I needed advice on how this might be done and because I wanted some feedback on how others viewed the targeting touch AC I figured if 2 players and 1 GM noticed the difference by mere lvl 7 then some should have noticed a greater difference at higher lvls.
And up to recently the player was useing early age weapons, the advanced age weapon nerfed him in numbers of attacks and otherwise didn't give him much buff, he has yet to roll a single misfire in 7 lvls and tactics often keeps him at good range for most fights. though I have ben upping the creatures tactics to make this increasingly difficult to do.
yes removing advanced and double barrels would definatly reduce the damage output of firearms what is wrong with altering them to not use touch AC, I as a DM like the miss chance, I as a player like the miss chance. therefore since touch AC effectivly removes said miss chance it seams reasonable enough to remove it and alter firarms slightly. Just not sure how best to alter it. don't need told to not alter it as I have already decided that I don't like the feature as a dm. if no-one wishes to help with ways to alter it and only wants tot ell me what NOT to do in my game then I will remove this topic from the forum and try to figure it out on my own. This is however the advice forum so is the correct place as I am after advice, just not after the advice that touch AC is ok becouse I will agree to disagree
Firearms got reduced rang, misfire chance, increased crit multiplier, and attack touch AC at the first range incitement.
Crossbows have a build that allows Dex to damage much like gunslingers get for Firearms.
seams really the easiest fix would be to reduce bullet cost and allow any feat that effects a repeating crossbow to also effect a firearm.
course this removes the magic of firearms but then real Pistol's couldn't actually punch threw armor as they where very short rang, inaccurate, and pretty weak powered holding little gunpowder and having a short barrel. it was not uncommon that a table could stop a bullet meaning plate mail defiantly could. And +5 adamant platemail would laugh at the impact from even advanced firearm.
I do understand why it targets touch AC, it is to make it feal difrent. Is why they added weaknesses and added touch AC but really it makes no sense why it can puncture armor that modern age bullets would not. (thick natural/ magical armors that end up stronger then iron walls)
but then you guys are dead set that it should hit touch AC
This heavy weapon fires a pair of iron-tipped bolts with a single squeeze of the trigger.
Benefit: Make one attack roll. If the attack hits, the target takes damage from both bolts. Critical hits, sneak attack damage, and other precision-based damage only apply to the first bolt.
Drawback: Due to its size and weight, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll if you’re proficient with it, or –8 if you’re not.
Load: Loading one bolt is a standard action; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a move action. Crossbow Mastery allows you to reload both bolts as a single move action.
Basicaly double barreled firearm, though they made the firearm version broken by removing the restrictions. reverting to there core rules fixes double barreled guns.
_________________
Crossbow, Repeating:
Load: As long as it holds bolts, you can reload it by pulling the reloading lever (a free action). Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note: The repeating crossbow (whether heavy or light) holds 5 crossbow bolts. You can fire a repeating crossbow with one hand or fire a repeating crossbow in each hand in the same manner as you would a normal crossbow of the same size. However, you must fire the weapon with two hands in order to use the reloading lever, and you must use two hands to load a new case of bolts.
Basically a revolver though revolver gets a extra shot
Crossbow, Light:
Load: Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Basically a pistol.
Difference in all of these is range, misfire chance, and targeting touch AC also firearms get some other small bonuses in power compared to the crossbow though mechanical the base design for firearms is crossbows.
So I get asked why even have firearms if they are basically crossbows, that's simple I include them for fluff. Same reason there's not like 6 swords instead of a zillion. I mean a dagger is just a small short sword, and a great sword is just a large short sword. The scimitar is basically just a short sword on paper. Fluff is what makes all these weapons so different. on paper a one handed weapon that deals 1d6 damage is the same as a different 1 handed weapon that deals 1d6 damage. For balance reasons everything is basically the same on paper. Same as if you take a human strip all the fluff call it a half orc swap the bonus skill to a power balanced to it and add new fluff it becomes a new race even though mechanically it remains the same.
Fluff is the driving force that makes the world so vibrant, the stats don't need some huge change to make the weapon feel special if that change is going to effect game-play, it could use a couple small changes and fluff.
SO the ADVICE I am after is how can crossbows mechanically speaking be changed in a SMALL way in order to not disrupt balance and yet give them a slightly cool feel to them.
The cone damage is defiantly a nice effect for blunderbuss as it makes the weapon feel different then a heavy crossbow.
Alchemical cartilages allow for the same variant to firearm shots as arrows have, specially with a open minded GM. What I am looking for is a small feature that won't greatly effect game-play.
perhaps allowing them to be quick drawed without the feet? This is where I actually need advice the rest Is easy. Failing a cool feature I will leave it with just fluff and revert my firearms to basically re-fluffed crossbows and leave it at that.
The game does abstract things a lot. Be careful when you aim for realism, because one day you will read the falling damage rules or start to wonder why fireballs don't set flammable things on fire or what is the air velocity of an unladden ice mephit. That way lies madness. And F.A.T.A.L, too.
it actually explains why fireball doesn't set stuff on fire we already had to look into that lol, as for falling damage we have reveiwed that a few times and even did the math on how far a person could actually fall in 6 seconds lol the rules arn't to bad on that really. I am sure if we came into the air velocity of a mephit we would probably research in reasonably figure it out.
Anyhows After much consideration I plan to just use Crossbow stats, now to learn how to optimize crossbows and assure that crossbow can stand up damage wise to a bow user might need to buff crossbow slightly but I am pretty sure there are already enough special rules out there for making a crossbow a pretty strong weapon
