Make sure your PCs acknowledge the misfire rate and make sure that they are tracking bullets. Both of these balance firearms. I had your same issue until i realized i had a player telling me every 20 he rolled but neglecting the 1s and 2s he rolled. He also wasn't tracking the all expensive bullets.
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Wizard damage is still relatively easy to mitigate being limited in number per day and normally offering a save for half, greatly reduced or no effect.
a Mage caste Scorching ray a pretty mean spell no save targets touch Ac and deals decent damage. So the mage at lvl 20 deals 12 D6 we will say it's even a maximized and enhanced to deal 12D6 +50% maximized or 108 damage.
Gunslinger at lvl 20 with +1 speed revolver deals on the lower end 72 damage. But on the higher end 114+ damage. then there is of course DR to reduce the end damage and Sr to negate all effects. Dr is the easier of those 2 to bypass I might add. Wizards not so strong now unless they get lucky and there top spells don't get resisted or saved against.
I haven't looked into pathfinder Version for DR as armor I kinda messed with 3.5 version of it but found it clunky and not really useful. I might have to study up on the new version see if pathfinder smoothed it out much.
*Edit: The players was dealing more damage all-be it with more effort when he was using the double barreled firearms before I allowed the revolver, least this way he gets less attacks per turn even if he don't suffer as bad of misfire chances, again a 5-10% chance of misfiring happens amazingly rarely even after a few hundred rolls. And I watch his rolls closely waiting for it to happen.
A better comparison would have been too use a 20th level wizard using a maximized disintegrate for 240 points of damage (taking up a 9th level slot).
Or even an empowered disintegrate for 40d6 +50% (for an average 225 points of damage) utilizing an 8th level slot.
And there is even a standard disintegrate for 40d6 (for an average of 150 points of damage).
And at 20th level, each of the above could feasibly be cast 4 times each minimum (more if the wizard has the expected high high INT) and with a range of 300 feet. The enemy would most likely be hit twice before the gunslinger could close within range to be able to take advantage of the touch AC.
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I think our OP just has a problem when he looks at touch ac in a vacuum.
He's continually ignoring the range limitations on it and focusing purely on the hypothetical that can be done.
If he goes the crossbow route like he's suggesting, why on earth would you play with guns then? They then become expensive crossbows with a chance of misfire until lvl 13.
Who cares that these weapons eliminate all possibility of stealth for the most part?
---are more expensive?
---can blow up until lvl 13
---rare
---require grit until lvl 13 to function reliably over time
---does less damage than a archer focused character
---that characters using these weapons aren't quite as durable (although still are to a good degree at least)
---that they are a one trick pony, even if a really cool trick
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The truth is, unless you're a Gunslinger, firearms are the worst weapons in the game.
- They can misfire. Do it twice and it blows up in your hand.
- They are very, very expensive. And so is their ammo.
- They require a feat to be used.
- They have short range increments. Stand 25ft away from the shooter and he not can't target touch AC they also suffer a -2 penalty.
- They can't add any attribute score to their damage, unlike bows.
- They have crappy realod speed.
- They suffer from the usual problems of ranged weapons (don't threat adjacent squares, provoke AoO when used, etc)
All in all, they are worse than any other weapon in the game (again, unless you're a gunslinger).
Sadly, composite bows are the only viable ranged weapons in the game. The only way to effectivelly use firearms is beloging to a single class who is completelly devoted to using them.
You mentioned earlier that double-barrelled pistols removed the penalty of the double crossbow. What penalty do you mean? They both get a penalty to hit.
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This guys thread is odd as heck...
Let me point to two things that seem odd to me.
21minutes ago he wrote
and 5hrs prior to thatWe also allowed Revolvers to be put away as a swift action using the quick draw feet and drawn as a swift action, thus duel wielding revolvers becomes possible, we did rule however when doing so you can use rapid shot.
Over all this balanced firearms pretty well putting them just slightly above crossbows in power and versatility (targeting flat footed AC) and maintaining a decent amount of fluff and feel that they are different then crossbows.
Flat footed AC is normally pretty close to a creatures normal AC threw-out the CR's thus is only a small bonus but adds a slight feel difference and is balanced by the cost of the ammo.
The player agreed that these changes where acceptable and didn't make him feel nerfed and worthless and allowed him to maintain the feel that firearms where not just off looking crossbows.
Anyhows After much consideration I plan to just use Crossbow stats, now to learn how to optimize crossbows and assure that crossbow can stand up damage wise to a bow user might need to buff crossbow slightly but I am pretty sure there are already enough special rules out there for making a crossbow a pretty strong weapon
I'm left wondering if this is all a conversation within his own head about the "horrors" of gunslingers.
I'm doubting any of this has seen real play at any level.
Disintegrate is nice assuming they actually fail there save which monsters of proper CR seam to not do all that often barring bad rolls which seam to mainly happen when the players want me to roll good lol. but yes wizards can be very strong but then they are limited.
And I have 2 players in the game who agree that the gunslinger is outshining them in droves, granted there not optimized perfectly but still, anyhows I had a problem with touch AC being targeted as a base attack, yes cost was a mild balancing issue but using by book loot rewards and modals they seamed to have no problem with the costs. Even though by all means this party is actually a lot more broke then a average party since there using a alchemist and potions as there heal option, which has caused the game to be a lot funner then when they had healer heavy characters. (agreed on by all players and myself) The alchemist is a Greedy NPC Built more as a merchant then a damage dealer. His bombs help once in a while but past those which oom fast and the occasional alchy fire he is really there source of potions and some comic relief
Altering the core of firearms slightly on paper looks like a good fix, the player seams happy and as a dm I am happy, he will likely be able to fight the really big end boss a lot easier since it is a monk however monks have there own way of dealing with bullets so I don't see that as a issue. Over all I think it balanced the firearm better then it was by book. but we shell see at the game table how it plays out.
So what are the other players? Because the horrors of "Combat PC is outshining a non-combat NPC oh noes!" are lost on me.
1.) "On par" with the Barbarian is not an excuse to nerf something, not by a long shot.
2.) The Anti-Paladin may be "optimized" but he is not optimized for DAMAGE as a Weapon and Shield user.
So he's on par with the other main damage dealer (which an archer would be as well), but does more damage than the AC/Tanking focused Anti-Paladin and the Rogue. I see no issues with this.
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If damage is the only yard stick your group uses, they should all play the same class...
Just throw some monsters with some DR in there and see who does more. (and at this level it should be occuring fairly often)
It's interesting how you've extrapolated the "problems" out to lvl 20, but it appears your experience is based on lvl 7?
I'm also curious why your barbarian is using a greatclub, when your gunslinger is using a weapon that's the pinnacle of technology... not that it matters much, but you're looking at the best option vs an inferior option.
With all the crazy situations you're describing for your characters, I'm not sure how a power attacking barbarian isn't doing better than the gunslinger at this stage. Every four points of strength beyond 10 equates to a +3 damage...
Psh...all this arguing over something so simple.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the firearms as-presented in PF, either. But that's more of a thematic thing. I don't like the Touch AC bit, I don't like the division of "One handed" and "Two handed" firearms. I don't like the overblown prices. I don't like the misfires. It's all just over-thought hogwash put into the system for the near-sole purpose of making firearms "different".
Balderdash. Firearms don't need to be different from other weapons. For my home games I've simplified the crap out of it. Pistols are mechanically equivalent to light crossbows. Rifles are mechanically equivalent to heavy crossbows. Revolvers (or magazine-based pistols, or pepperbox pistols, etc.) are mechanically equivalent to light repeating crossbows. Multi-shot rifles are mechanically equivalent to heavy repeating crossbows. Coat pistols or derringers? Hand Crossbows.
Double-barrel weapons are mechanically the same as their single-barrel brethren, except they cost twice as much and can fire 2 shots.
Scatterguns? Dragon Pistols or sawed-offs are light crossbows with half range and can scatter for 20 feet. Shotguns and blunderbusses are heavies with half range and scatter for 30.
Ta-freaking-da.
And how to make them mechanically viable? Dead Shot (or Pickle Shot, if you prefer) is now just a thing that anyone can do with crossbows, firearms and slings.
Also, all crossbows are simple weapons. All firearms are martial.
And I've also eliminated the gunslinger from my games, distributing many of its abilities to other classes as talents or feats. Don't like the idea of a base class that is dedicated to a single weapon-type. Classes in PF are supposed to be modular. Gunslinger isn't.
And for those of you who have read all my gunslinger and firearm documents I've written before: These "mechanically-a-crossbow" developments are rather recent.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to figure out how to mechanically include a class defense bonus into Pathfinder without breaking the system.
...Catch Phrase,
-Chris
I think our OP just has a problem when he looks at touch ac in a vacuum.
He's continually ignoring the range limitations on it and focusing purely on the hypothetical that can be done.
If he goes the crossbow route like he's suggesting, why on earth would you play with guns then? They then become expensive crossbows with a chance of misfire until lvl 13.
Who cares that these weapons eliminate all possibility of stealth for the most part?
---are more expensive?
---can blow up until lvl 13
---rare
---require grit until lvl 13 to function reliably over time
---does less damage than a archer focused character
---that characters using these weapons aren't quite as durable (although still are to a good degree at least)
---that they are a one trick pony, even if a really cool trick
You hit the nail on the head. I have one gunslinger in my party and guns are more readily available in my campaign. The rest like crossbows, the range is much better and they can recover their nonexpensive arrows. Theri weapon is also very useful.
In a Normal Game where I watch GP level like hawk it not that bad.
But if GP is not factor then it get real cheesey
I am in Book 4 of Skull and Shackel AP as GM. I have had tone guns down.
I changed damge dice down all 1 step 1D8 to 1D6. I add 1 to Miss fire range. Then I changed the Critical down by 1 with a minimum of 2.
That worked out much better.