It's a "Can't be fixed without a new edition" thing.
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Whats broken about the MI creation rules?
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Whats broken about the MI creation rules?
Seriously?
Well for starters a crafter can get two items for almost the price of one which throws the WBL all out of whack.
You can create staves of Infinite Wishes.
You can have Simulacrums creating items for you.
When you take a feat you instantly know how to create all items that belong in that category by RAW.
Etc etc.....
It's not perfect, and it could be exploited if the GM allowed it to be, but it's really not a bad system. The costs are just guidelines - they are not set in stone. As for crafters creating two items for the price of one. I think this is completely fair. This is no different than a manufacturer making something at their cost and the consumer purchasing the same something at the full retail cost.
I'm really not sure what the complaint is. If you don't like how the GM runs it, don't play with him/her. If you are running the campaign, then you get to dictate the costs of custom items.
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I think it was James Jacobs who directly responded to my question on exactly this subject and his response was basically: "We have higher priorities right now." The general feeling (and I don't disagree) is that fixing magic items is such a large effort that it would likely require a major revision, something at least along the lines of a PF 1.5. And that's just not in their plans right now.
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I don't know a dm who would allow any magic item to be crafted. The ability to allow and disallow is of vital importance to pen & paper rpgs.
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first of all, those rules are somewhat optional, nobody forces you to use them (or play Pathfinder for that matter), if what in your mind is broken is so easily fixed, just homebrew it. I don't see the point in starting the same topic over and over again every other day.
No GM I ever played with allows staves of infinite wishes, the recipes problem is basically a flavour and WBL is just a guideline to begin with.
So the problem is you need GM fiat to make it work.
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The title says it all.
It has been proven time and time again that the current system is broken. Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?
Why refuse to fix whats broken?
You missed The Most Important Rule.
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
So, stop complaining and come up with something that works for you:
- Eliminate the item creation feats so players cannot create items, or
- Set their level requirement for the item creation feats higher, or
- Require that the players find recipes for the items, or
- Make items cost more to make, or
- Think of some other things yourself
So the problem is you need GM fiat to make it work.
No, you need GM Fiat to even ALLOW broken items like Staffs of Infinite Wishes. Any custom magic item that's not in the book is by definition in homebrew and GM fiat territory, and as such isn't really relevant in a discussion about whether the crafting feats are broken. They are not balanced around what some GM could conceivably allow in their game, nor could they be.
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You need GM fiat to make most things work. They also are the ones running the encounters against the PCs, aren't they?
What we have here is freedom and flexibility and what those come with is responsibility. What good GMs and players need to do is work together within those freedoms to make responsible items, not exploit all of the loopholes to make overpowered items.
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Have you ever considered, I don't know, keeping it in one thread?
We get it, you don't like the rules. Don't use them in your game. There's no need to throw multiple fits about it.
Actually im not throwing a fit.
Secondly, I'm a paying customer that spends a lot of money and a lot time playing and running Pathfinder so I have a right to voice my concerns.
Thanks
Why fix something which is not broken?
The magic item creation rules are far from perfect but that applies to the entire rule system. They are only overpowered if your DM is an idiot. In which place he shouldn' be a DM in the first place.
if you aremthe DM, the solution is even more easy:
Don't like them? Don't use them!
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The title says it all.
It has been proven time and time again that the current system is broken. Why is the current system remaining when it can be fixed?
Why refuse to fix whats broken?
You missed The Most Important Rule.
The rules presented are here to help you breathe life into your characters and the world they explore. While they are designed to make your game easy and exciting, you might find that some of them do not suit the style of play that your gaming group enjoys. Remember that these rules are yours. You can change them to fit your needs. Most Game Masters have a number of “house rules” that they use in their games. The Game Master and players should always discuss any rules changes to make sure that everyone understands how the game will be played. Although the Game Master is the final arbiter of the rules, the Pathfinder RPG is a shared experience, and all of the players should contribute their thoughts when the rules are in doubt.
So, stop complaining and come up with something that works for you:
- Eliminate the item creation feats so players cannot create items, or
- Set their level requirement for the item creation feats higher, or
- Require that the players find recipes for the items, or
- Make items cost more to make, or
- Think of some other things yourself
I dont have to stop complaining.
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Why fix something which is not broken?
The magic item creation rules are far from perfect but that applies to the entire rule system. They are only overpowered if your DM is an idiot. In which place he shouldn' be a DM in the first place.
if you aremthe DM, the solution is even more easy:Don't like them? Don't use them!
Its already been proven to be broken.
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It's not perfect, and it could be exploited if the GM allowed it to be, but it's really not a bad system. The costs are just guidelines - they are not set in stone. As for crafters creating two items for the price of one. I think this is completely fair. This is no different than a manufacturer making something at their cost and the consumer purchasing the same something at the full retail cost.
I'm really not sure what the complaint is. If you don't like how the GM runs it, don't play with him/her. If you are running the campaign, then you get to dictate the costs of custom items.
How is that fair?
You can severly tip the balance of easily.
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Lol? Creating custom magic items is homebrew so is must be allowed by the DM.
In 10 years playing 3.0 and Pathfinder I never saw an abuse of it even with all the powergamers and cheaters in my groups.
Because it is not possible when the GM doesnt allow the abuse.
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I think it was James Jacobs who directly responded to my question on exactly this subject and his response was basically: "We have higher priorities right now." The general feeling (and I don't disagree) is that fixing magic items is such a large effort that it would likely require a major revision, something at least along the lines of a PF 1.5. And that's just not in their plans right now.
So its basically in to the next thing and not worry about improving what we already have.
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I think it was James Jacobs who directly responded to my question on exactly this subject and his response was basically: "We have higher priorities right now." The general feeling (and I don't disagree) is that fixing magic items is such a large effort that it would likely require a major revision, something at least along the lines of a PF 1.5. And that's just not in their plans right now.So its basically in to the next thing and not worry about improving what we already have.
So it's basically "follow the money". The gamer community reaction to the rules that exist do not convince Paizo that they have any economic incentive in fixing them at this time. The effort they would put into fixing the magic item system can be directed to producing new content and selling that.
That's the bottom line.
Lol? Creating custom magic items is homebrew so is must be allowed by the DM.
In 10 years playing 3.0 and Pathfinder I never saw an abuse of it even with all the powergamers and cheaters in my groups.Because it is not possible when the GM doesnt allow the abuse.
In all the years I've been playing, I can't remember a single player wanting to make their own magic items. We either go to the big city, or send agents to get what we want.
So the problem is you need GM fiat to make it work.first of all, those rules are somewhat optional, nobody forces you to use them (or play Pathfinder for that matter), if what in your mind is broken is so easily fixed, just homebrew it. I don't see the point in starting the same topic over and over again every other day.
No GM I ever played with allows staves of infinite wishes, the recipes problem is basically a flavour and WBL is just a guideline to begin with.
No more than what exists in PFS.
Also, paraphrasing SKR on the feats granting automatic knowledge to create all items in the category: that's silly.
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Clearly no one will convince you otherwise, so I think you need to live with the fact that magic item creation can be broken and unbalanced. But then again, every other aspect of the game can be broken and unbalanced if one sets their mind to it. I've yet to find a game that couldn't be broken.
Maybe I'm far too logical about this, but in a world full of magic, where magic has essentially replaced technology, why on earth shouldn't custom items exist? Custom cars exist, right? And if someone can actually make these items, why on earth would they pay the same price as the schmuck buying the item from "ye olde magic shoppe"?
The game is inherently "unfair" - some classes are clearly superior to others, some magic items are better than others, some combinations of magic items /classes work better together, etc. If I were you, I would not get too hung up on what is fair and what is not.
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So the problem is you need GM fiat to make it work.first of all, those rules are somewhat optional, nobody forces you to use them (or play Pathfinder for that matter), if what in your mind is broken is so easily fixed, just homebrew it. I don't see the point in starting the same topic over and over again every other day.
No GM I ever played with allows staves of infinite wishes, the recipes problem is basically a flavour and WBL is just a guideline to begin with.
No more than what exists in PFS.
Also, paraphrasing SKR on the feats granting automatic knowledge to create all items in the category: that's silly.
That is heavily reliant on GM fiat.
Also, too many people are assuming that all DMs actually know what they are doing. You have a lot of beginners who follow the rules to the letter because they don't fully know how to enforce GM fiat.
Funny how magic items are probably one of the most important aspects of the game because the math is actually built into the system and yet its deemed "not that important to fix".
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Whats broken about the MI creation rules?Seriously?
Well for starters a crafter can get two items for almost the price of one which throws the WBL all out of whack.
You can create staves of Infinite Wishes.
You can have Simulacrums creating items for you.
When you take a feat you instantly know how to create all items that belong in that category by RAW.
Etc etc.....
Crafting for half market price is balanced. You get a +1 short sword in the treasure but you are specialized in scimitar... You sell the short sword for half price and then use that money to buy the parts to build a +1 scimitar... two days later you have your shiny new +1 scimitar crafted.
The staff of infinite wishes is NOT part of the standard item list so it needs GM approval... Denied!
The Simulacrum is half your level so it doesn't craft as well. And it still needs money to craft with. I am not seeing the issue? So what if it lets you sneak past the time requirement on items half your level?
A dev already explained why you get to build all the gear when you get the feat. It certainly doesn't hurt game balance that you can do so. So why whine about it? Besides if this one minor issue bothers you so much just house rule it away. I LIKE that I can use the feat on cool gear as soon as I get it rather than buy the feat and wait for GM permission (finding or buying recipes) to use it.
As you can see the system works just fine.
I explained that it isn't broken in your last thread...
I wonder how long till they lock down this one?
That is heavily reliant on GM fiat.
Also, too many people are assuming that all DMs actually know what they are doing. You have a lot of beginners who follow the rules to the letter because they don't fully know how to enforce GM fiat.
Funny how magic items are probably one of the most important aspects of the game because the math is actually built into the system and yet its deemed "not that important to fix".
Just say "we do custom item crafting like PFS." Boom, done.
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I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.
Probably the most satisfying way to fix crafting in pathfinder is to take Shallowsoul out of pathfinder, but since that would involve adjusting every other aspect of the system it seems like more work than anyone is willing to do.
This could be like that whole 'jedi that restores balance to the force means killing off a lot of jedi children' problem...
Its possible the crafting rules are as 'easy' and 'powerful' as they are because players got too tired of playing by shallowsouls rules and asked the developer for some 'clearly defined rules that make crafting easier or profitable so that we can have what we want instead of letting our loot list be entirely controlled by gm fiat.
A happy medium for you might be to just bump up the minimum level requirement for crafting feats to be like... 12 or 15 or something. Then you only rook players from making their own stuff until they're the most powerful beings on the planet anyway.
Bottom line is you wont get a printed paizo seal of approval on any suggestion because they've already given it to you. All printed matieral is a suggestion and if all of the players at your table agree that something should be added or taken away then paizo has already stamped their seal of approval on that.
Wish granted (but partially subverted as all overpowered wishes are)
I don't have an issue with magic item creation.
As already point out use item crafting rules from PFS.
Personally allow for magic item creation in my games. I balance it by limiting time when it can be done using the rules of the game.
Basically every magic item has cost. With a creation feat you can create it for half that cost. That cost is not simply turning gold into said magic item. It covers the cost of the components to make the item you have magical. Now I assume in on average those component are readily available and you just go out into the city and buy them before performing the magic rituals required to enchant them.
The limitation come in when you aren't in the average city. The rules from the GMG apply under settlements and magic components might not be there if the economy isn't high enough. A high law city might have restrictions on component for creation. In either of these two case the player need to locate alternative avenues of acquiring the components. Such as a trip to major center, easy if you have teleport but at the lower level is provides avenues for adventure. Crime also impacts thing, what happens when the components are stolen for example. Depending the society value magic might be bad thing to practice with witch burnings as such. You may need access to lore to pull it off, just because you know the basics in magic item creation doesn't mean you can create just anything but with access to vast libraries you can. It's all in the rules if you want apply it. It's much simpler to just say X gold build you Y magic item but that kind of take the fun of out it and can be more easily abused.
Then there time and location. I don't allow magic item creation out of back pack. You need a workshop and you need to put the time in.
So sometimes I'm more liberal and just say you have time to create 1 item for cost of X gold or less. The group I play with already knows the location and has their feelers out on what is available and what they can do easily and what require leg work (adventuring).
My player tend not take creation feats unless they want that style of adventure. It's never used to double ones wealth.
Its already been proven to be broken.Why fix something which is not broken?
The magic item creation rules are far from perfect but that applies to the entire rule system. They are only overpowered if your DM is an idiot. In which place he shouldn' be a DM in the first place.
if you aremthe DM, the solution is even more easy:Don't like them? Don't use them!
By who?
So no it isn't proven broken. It might be believed to be broken by some people (including you), but till the majority is persuaded it can't be proven by word of mouth.Now do you have charts, statistics, or doctorates (if so I'm proud that you could get a doctorate using PF) about it?
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Its already been proven to be broken.Why fix something which is not broken?
The magic item creation rules are far from perfect but that applies to the entire rule system. They are only overpowered if your DM is an idiot. In which place he shouldn' be a DM in the first place.
if you aremthe DM, the solution is even more easy:Don't like them? Don't use them!
By who?
So no it isn't proven broken. It might be believed to be broken by some people (including you), but till the majority is persuaded it can't be proven by word of mouth.
Now do you have charts, statistics, or doctorates (if so I'm proud that you could get a doctorate using PF) about it?
Lets not pretend to be so "out of the loop" eh?
You you have to do is read the other threads and you will have your answer.
DMs stepping in to control things does not count as a fix or "the rules do work".
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This constant argument about whether there is a problem with the rules always sort of cracks me up.
I don't know of any other industry where complaints of the magnitude associated with the Pathfinder magic item system would not immediately be acknowledged as a problem.
"Hey, Joe, our website has four concurrent threads two of them over 200 response long about how our chocolate latte tastes like crap."
"Well, half of those are people who like the way it tastes. So no problem!"
Or "We keep getting complaints about brake failures on our latest model."
"Yeah, but half of the respondents say their brakes work fine. No problem."
The fact that some people are fine with the rules as they are does not mean they are fine.
There is nothing so bad that someone, somewhere, does not think it is awesome.
There is nothing so good that someone, somewhere, does not think it sucks.
The trick to product management is knowing when an issue crosses the line from statistical anomaly to problem.
Perhaps Paizo is right, and the magic item system complaints are only a vocal minority and they can ignore them with impunity while focusing on selling more new content, which appears to be their official position on the subject.
Perhaps it's a big enough issue that a competitor can exploit that, and other problems, to create a new product that out-competes Paizo.
I guess for now Paizo is winning that gamble.
I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)
While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
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It's a "Can't be fixed without a new edition" thing.
This pretty much should have ended the thread.
The rules are imperfect and require the oversight of a good DM.
If there are alternate proposals for how this should work, let's hear them.
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Things that have been said already:
-No one is required or even expected to follow every single rule in the rulebook.
-There is a provision in the beginning of the book that makes the above part of the official rules.
-Everyone else who feels the magic item creation rules are unfair fixes them with their own house rule and then stops caring.
Things That Have Been Implied But Not Said:
-Creating an entire new edition of books because one player finds himself unable to apply the Most Important Rule and unable to play with existing ones would be far to costly when most players neither want nor need it.
-Even if they did, Shallowsoul would probably still complain about it.
Things I Feel Should Be Said:
-Is it just me or did Shallowsoul chose his avatar specifically because it fits our image of him?
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Things that have been said already:
-No one is required or even expected to follow every single rule in the rulebook.
-There is a provision in the beginning of the book that makes the above part of the official rules.
-Everyone else who feels the magic item creation rules are unfair fixes them with their own house rule and then stops caring.Things That Have Been Implied But Not Said:
-Creating an entire new edition of books because one player finds himself unable to apply the Most Important Rule and unable to play with existing ones would be far to costly when most players neither want nor need it.
-Even if they did, Shallowsoul would probably still complain about it.Things I Feel Should Be Said:
-Is it just me or did Shallowsoul chose his avatar specifically because it fits our image of him?
Well the problem with your above statement is the fact that I'm not the only one that has complained and and pretending that I am the only one is just ridiculous on your part.
Yar.
... uhm, they ARE looking into clearing up some of the issues with the item creation rules, just probably not in the way you want. However, the staff of paizo would love to hear your opinions, comments and suggestions if you would be willing to present them in a respectful manner.
GO HERE to become a part of the solution!
~P
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This constant argument about whether there is a problem with the rules always sort of cracks me up.
I don't know of any other industry where complaints of the magnitude associated with the Pathfinder magic item system would not immediately be acknowledged as a problem.
The video game industry. In particular, MMO forums. They're a pretty canonical example of an extremely vocal minority that can't agree on anything, where all of the telemetry that the developer has available suggests that class X is really just fine. Sure, the numbers don't tell the whole story, and there is merit to investigating players' claims, but it looks like Paizo has done that already -- thus their attempt to determine what is unclear about the magic item creation rules so they can clarify. Clearly, though, they have looked at the system and determined that it is, if nothing else, good enough for now.
You are correct to say that just because some people like the rules does not mean they are fine. Of course, just because some people dislike the rules does not mean they are broken.
Personally, I think this is a very interesting topic that deserves a civil discussion in good faith, but unfortunately it seems like a number of people are unwilling to do so. The last thread had a number of good posts for both sides, but they tended to get lost in the bickering until the thread was locked. (I must say, I appreciate those who have made constructive, well-reasoned posts without taking a belligerent tone. Off the top of my head, Adamantine Dragon, Ashiel, and a few others had some excellent posts that merited further discussion.)
I'm still hoping for a satisfactory answer as to why the system supposedly requires DM fiat to work at all. Yes, custom items require heavy DM fiat, but that's because they're homebrew. Are we actually arguing over the suggested pricing tables included in the CRB? If not, I really don't think custom items are relevant at all.
The impression I've been getting is that the issue is with the entirety of the magic item creation system. If that is correct, can we agree to drop arguments about homebrew items and limit the discussion to the crafting of Paizo published magic items?
So, ignoring the obvious homebrew, what about the system absolutely requires DM fiat to make it work?
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I am still waiting to see how soul would change things.Likely by deleting the entire content of PF Core Rulebook, copy-pasting 1E (or 2E) rulebooks and writing a big honkin' "DM IS THE OVERGOD. OBEY." on the cover :)While i understand the snark. I think we should give Soul a chance to clarify what he means and suggest an actual mechanic for crafting. If it really takes a point of CON (1st edition) I would like him to specifically say so.
It's up to you Mr. Soul.
How do you run it? Please, give us numbers.
Several fixes have already been said.
1: Go back to subtracting XP except that when tallying up XP you are counted as the level you should be.
2: Break the feats with a larger selection into multiple feats and give them Prereqs. Example: Craft Minor Wondrous Items (5th level), Craft Medium Wondrous Items (10th level), Craft Greater Wondrous Items (15th level). I would even go so far as to give them a Craft Prereq. 5 ranks Craft for Minor, 10 ranks for Medium and 15 ranks for Greater.
3: For weapons I would only allow PC's to craft up to +3, anything beyond that would require special quests and even (Ingredient Ranks). After each quest you gain an Ingredient Rank that would be used towards creating that special weapon.
4: Eliminate the craft at 50% cost and make it no less than 75% cost.
A PC should have to really think about whether he wants to dump all his resources and be a crafter or be better in and out of combat.
5: Craft feats should never be given as bonus feats from a class such as the Wizard.
6: Eliminate crafting on the road.
7: Enforce investment on an actual crafting lab or work station.
8: Stick to the prereqs. You either have the prereqs and you can make the item or you don't. No raising the DC when you don't meet the prereqs.
Just a few suggestions.
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This constant argument about whether there is a problem with the rules always sort of cracks me up.
I don't know of any other industry where complaints of the magnitude associated with the Pathfinder magic item system would not immediately be acknowledged as a problem.
The video game industry. In particular, MMO forums. They're a pretty canonical example of an extremely vocal minority that can't agree on anything, where all of the telemetry that the developer has available suggests that class X is really just fine. Sure, the numbers don't tell the whole story, and there is merit to investigating players' claims, but it looks like Paizo has done that already -- thus their attempt to determine what is unclear about the magic item creation rules so they can clarify. Clearly, though, they have looked at the system and determined that it is, if nothing else, good enough for now.
You are correct to say that just because some people like the rules does not mean they are fine. Of course, just because some people dislike the rules does not mean they are broken.
Personally, I think this is a very interesting topic that deserves a civil discussion in good faith, but unfortunately it seems like a number of people are unwilling to do so. The last thread had a number of good posts for both sides, but they tended to get lost in the bickering until the thread was locked. (I must say, I appreciate those who have made constructive, well-reasoned posts without taking a belligerent tone. Off the top of my head, Adamantine Dragon, Ashiel, and a few others had some excellent posts that merited further discussion.)
I'm still hoping for a satisfactory answer as to why the system supposedly requires DM fiat to work at all. Yes, custom items require heavy DM fiat, but that's because they're homebrew. Are we actually arguing over the suggested pricing tables included in the CRB? If not, I really don't think custom items are relevant at all.
The impression I've been getting is that...
All you have to do is look at the WBL, the fact that a caster crafts everything at 50% of the cost, and the fact that the crafter can charge his companions 75% of the price, collect the funds and create even more items for himself while his companions still get a bargain.
Crafter = 2 items for the price of one, can a profit, use the proceeds towards yet another while item so that's actually three or more items the crafter can get to a non crafter who get's one, maybe two if he saves enough money from the crafter giving him a bargain.
You have just blown WBL out the water. Now the DM has to step in and say no you can't do that.
Another example of GM fiat in PFS. Did you know that in PFS you can't give another member of the party any of your gold towards a magic item. You can give the item you bought to another PC but you can't give them money. There is nothing physically stopping you except for the GM and the rules of PFS.