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Just what the title says. Why was XP cost eliminated from certain spells and magic item creation. I always thought it was a great way to keep things in check but now the DM really has to watch how much gold he gives out and keep an eye on the players if they try and find ways to exploit getting massive amounts of gold. I think they should bring back this rule.
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I don't think this rule should be brougth back.
There are many reasons for my opinion, but one is that I used to make gear for the grp, and by level 20 I would be one, two or three levels behind and everyone had benefited from my feats.... I could have taken only feats that boosted my own effectiveness, but I chose to benefit the grp many a time. I think that if a caster is selfless like that he should not be penalized.
Now crafting feats lets the grp exceede the WBL, as it should because if the caster went all out on combat related feats he is "GOD"!
Basically paizo removed all effects that might make you 'delevel' your character. That includes xp costs, and they changed how negative levels and level drain work. Partly because a lot of people who play the game, especially those who use the APs have done away with xp entirely or dont track it separately and just have the party level when it is appropriate in the story. XP costs and lost levels clash with the style of a signficant portion of the groups playing pathfinder.
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I don't think this rule should be brougth back.
There are many reasons for my opinion, but one is that I used to make gear for the grp, and by level 20 I would be one, two or three levels behind and everyone had benefited from my feats.... I could have taken only feats that boosted my own effectiveness, but I chose to benefit the grp many a time. I think that if a caster is selfless like that he should not be penalized.
Now crafting feats lets the grp exceede the WBL, as it should because if the caster went all out on combat related feats he is "GOD"!
I don't agree with your reason because it would be like me saying" "Well since I sacrificed X to the group then I shouldn't have to roll my to hit anymore and just hit every time."
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As far as I recall, the XP costs were removed because Pathfinder also has no built-in way for a lower-level character to "catch up" XP-wise. In 3.5, due to the way XP was given out, a lower-level character would eventually catch up to the higher-level characters and end up having the same amount of XP. That isn't the case in Pathfinder, since monsters award a fixed amount of XP regardless of character-level.
What problem do you see? (I mean specifically. What situation has come up which you consider abuse?)
I liked xp costs personally, but I don't see any great drama without it.
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What problem do you see? (I mean specifically. What situation has come up which you consider abuse?)
I liked xp costs personally, but I don't see any great drama without it.
Wish spell, Magic item creation etc....
If you have an inexperienced DM who loves to hand out money, or a PC finds a way to gain massive amounts of money then there can be a problem. Limiting certain abilities to money is not a good thing.
You could potentially be trapped in a cycle of leveling up and down if you're on a level threshold. Kill monster, gain xp, level. Craft, lose xp, de-level. That's a headache if you have a play session where there are long in-game time-spans and several xp-rewarding situations.
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We removed the XP costs because we thought they were unfair. Wizards, in particular, were tripple taxed for doing their thing—in 3.5 they had to pay gold, time, AND XP in order to take advantage of their class features (scribing scrolls and crafting magic items).
Furthermore... it always felt nonsensical to me that you would "spend XP" (and thus grow LESS experienced) for successfully building a magic item, which to me feels like something that you should actually become MORE experienced at. It's non-intuitive and wonky to say "I spent all my life building magic items, and as a result I am less experienced than all those spellcasters who never built a single thing in their entire lives!"
The GM, in any case, gets to say when and where and how often players get to craft magic items; he also gets to decide whether Item Creation feats are in the game at all. So if the concept of PCs building their own magic worries you... I would do one of the following:
1) Remove Item Crafting from the game entirely.
2) Regulate Item Crafting—let crafters build items on a case by case basis.
3) Require items to utilize rare and difficult to find components. Maybe that helm of teleportation needs to be soaked in a marilith's blood before it becomes magic. Perhaps that +3 flaming burst falchion needs to have its blade tempered by an ancient red dragon's breath? And so on.
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You could potentially be trapped in a cycle of leveling up and down if you're on a level threshold. Kill monster, gain xp, level. Craft, lose xp, de-level. That's a headache if you have a play session where there are long in-game time-spans and several xp-rewarding situations.
But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.
What problem do you see? (I mean specifically. What situation has come up which you consider abuse?)
I liked xp costs personally, but I don't see any great drama without it.
Wish spell, Magic item creation etc....
If you have an inexperienced DM who loves to hand out money, or a PC finds a way to gain massive amounts of money then there can be a problem. Limiting certain abilities to money is not a good thing.
Well sure. An inexperienced DM might make an error of judgement and give out too much. Is that a problem with the rules though? You can't protect people from making mistakes.
Should armor class be capped by level in case an inexperienced DM gives out too much ac boosting equipment too early?
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You could potentially be trapped in a cycle of leveling up and down if you're on a level threshold. Kill monster, gain xp, level. Craft, lose xp, de-level. That's a headache if you have a play session where there are long in-game time-spans and several xp-rewarding situations.But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.
If this happened in a game I was running, those repercussions would be the PC who wanted to sit there and craft and craft and craft would end up missing the adventure entirely and his player would thus not get to take part in the game at all.
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Deleveling and having no catch up mechanism = Suck & Not Fun
Therefore it was horrible... and good riddance. May it never return.
You could potentially be trapped in a cycle of leveling up and down if you're on a level threshold. Kill monster, gain xp, level. Craft, lose xp, de-level. That's a headache if you have a play session where there are long in-game time-spans and several xp-rewarding situations.But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.
Yeah there are. You go broke and get bored being a factory instead of a hero.
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We removed the XP costs because we thought they were unfair. Wizards, in particular, were tripple taxed for doing their thing—in 3.5 they had to pay gold, time, AND XP in order to take advantage of their class features (scribing scrolls and crafting magic items).
Furthermore... it always felt nonsensical to me that you would "spend XP" (and thus grow LESS experienced) for successfully building a magic item, which to me feels like something that you should actually become MORE experienced at. It's non-intuitive and wonky to say "I spent all my life building magic items, and as a result I am less experienced than all those spellcasters who never built a single thing in their entire lives!"
The GM, in any case, gets to say when and where and how often players get to craft magic items; he also gets to decide whether Item Creation feats are in the game at all. So if the concept of PCs building their own magic worries you... I would do one of the following:
1) Remove Item Crafting from the game entirely.
2) Regulate Item Crafting—let crafters build items on a case by case basis.
3) Require items to utilize rare and difficult to find components. Maybe that helm of teleportation needs to be soaked in a marilith's blood before it becomes magic. Perhaps that +3 flaming burst falchion needs to have its blade tempered by an ancient red dragon's breath? And so on.
But that is actually an example of the Oberoni Fallacy. I shouldn't have to change the rules in order to keep the game balanced. Limits on wealth is something I am free to do without invoking the Fallacy but the other things you mentioned does invoke it.
I don't care if it's a class ability or not, it's a very powerful class ability but it still should have something that keeps it in check.
I'm in the process of arguing right now about a 20th level build that can make a Staff of Wish that contains 60+ wishes a day. It's using the Fabricate abuse and I still think there is a flaw somewhere but if Wish still had it's XP costs then we wouldn't even be having the argument.
Many of PF's alterations to the game were simplifications in design.
For example, all the Grappling and Bull Rushing and the like were simplified into CMB/CMD, which I think is brilliant.
For example, skills were collapsed to make it less granular, which is a brilliant choice, in a game where spells and combat abilities seem to matter alot more.
So now for XP. Level loss, XP cost of spells, XP cost of magic items. It simplifies level tracking, which is a good thing.
Simple is good. That's the only reason I see.
As for abuse, you still need time. However, I agree with the implied sentiment you bear, that there should be some restriction against abuse. But XP cost isn't the only way to do it. I prefer to employ required-component-scarcity, myself, since it not only provides GM-controlled restrictions, but also adds RP and flavor to the crafting process.
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But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.
The wizard who takes a day off to make a big scroll ends up LESS experienced with magic than the wizard who takes a day off to get drunk. That doesn't make sense.
I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.
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But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.The wizard who takes a day off to make a big scroll ends up LESS experienced with magic than the wizard who takes a day off to get drunk. That doesn't make sense.
Chobe actually hit the nail on the head. XP is something akin to life force and the caster is having to pour a portion of himself into the making of that certain item.
You can't justify something with the "not making sense" excuse because it's a poor one. Magic item creation and essence of the creator has been in fantasy for a long long time.
There's another good reason to ditch XP costs - goofy metagamey results that XP costs imposed.
For example, a 17 level wizard can cast wish one day but then win enough XPs to level up to 18 and be unable to cast it anymore because he no longer has 5000 extra XP to spend. That's a silly result but that's what XP costs on things can get you.
I didn't like XP costs much from the beginning, but I thought it was one of the few things PCs might be relatively unwilling to part with. Turns out, at least when it comes to magic item crafting, money and time are far more limiting factors.
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I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.
Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
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There's another good reason to ditch XP costs - goofy metagamey results that XP costs imposed.
For example, a 17 level wizard can cast wish one day but then win enough XPs to level up to 18 and be unable to cast it anymore because he no longer has 5000 extra XP to spend. That's a silly result but that's what XP costs on things can get you.
I didn't like XP costs much from the beginning, but I thought it was one of the few things PCs might be relatively unwilling to part with. Turns out, at least when it comes to magic item crafting, money and time are far more limiting factors.
The way you just handled Wish was a goofy metagamey result. Wish is a very powerful spell and you look at it as just another game mechanic.
I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
So have the DM say "No"
It's easy and has been a part of the game forever.
"I am sorry (Player X) I feel that you are unbalancing the game, we need to make a change"
The only time this does not work is PFS, and they don't use crafting.
But that is actually an example of the Oberoni Fallacy. I shouldn't have to change the rules in order to keep the game balanced. Limits on wealth is something I am free to do without invoking the Fallacy but the other things you mentioned does invoke it.
I don't care if it's a class ability or not, it's a very powerful class ability but it still should have something that keeps it in check.
I'm in the process of arguing right now about a 20th level build that can make a Staff of Wish that contains 60+ wishes a day. It's using the Fabricate abuse and I still think there is a flaw somewhere but if Wish still had it's XP costs then we wouldn't even be having the argument.
I think part of what James was getting at was that it was unnecessary to begin with. Also, I would say you're not following all the rules if you're making a 60+ charge staff since staves can only have 10 charges max and your character can only refill a single charge on any staff per day. Also, fabricate states "Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell." so how are you creating a staff of wish at all with that spell?
From staves:
Staves hold a maximum of 10 charges. Each spell cast from a staff consumes one or more charges. When a staff runs out of charges, it cannot be used until it is recharged. Each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells or regains spell slots, he can also imbue one staff with a portion of his power so long as one or more of the spells cast by the staff is on his spell list and he is capable of casting at least one of the spells. Imbuing a staff with this power restores one charge to the staff, but the caster must forgo one prepared spell or spell slot of a level equal to the highest-level spell cast by the staff.
So, how are you doing this?
It, also, served as a good deterrent for helping your teammates or supplying them with any magical items.
Why would a crafter delevel for that?
The way you just handled Wish was a goofy metagamey result. Wish is a very powerful spell and you look at it as just another game mechanic.There's another good reason to ditch XP costs - goofy metagamey results that XP costs imposed.
For example, a 17 level wizard can cast wish one day but then win enough XPs to level up to 18 and be unable to cast it anymore because he no longer has 5000 extra XP to spend. That's a silly result but that's what XP costs on things can get you.
I didn't like XP costs much from the beginning, but I thought it was one of the few things PCs might be relatively unwilling to part with. Turns out, at least when it comes to magic item crafting, money and time are far more limiting factors.
So... you think you should have the potential to cast it one day and then not the next simply because you leveled up? Is that what you're telling me?
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But you don't have to craft everything. If you are going to sit there and craft and craft and craft then there should be repercussions.The wizard who takes a day off to make a big scroll ends up LESS experienced with magic than the wizard who takes a day off to get drunk. That doesn't make sense.That's a little bit imprecise. He ends up with fewer experience points. It doesn't follow, though, that he has fewer ACTUAL experiences.
Certainly agree that if the 2 wizards in the comparison are continuing to gain experience over time and spending their off-days differently, one ends up higher level than the other, which is ultimately what you mean, I presume.
Also the thing that Sean needs to understand is the fact that you could never spend XP to drop you below your current level. You and the bar drinking wizard are still able to do the same things it's just that the bar wizard will go up in level before you do. You cap at level 20 so the crafting Wizard would eventually catch up with everyone.
I could see this if the game was dependent on the Wizard creating the items for the other players and himself but it's not. Creating items is something extra and not required of the game.
I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
We are talking about 25000 GP. it's a big amount. And remember that the DM can anything. if he does not want, you will never have those GPs.
You can't justify something with the "not making sense" excuse because it's a poor one. Magic item creation and essence of the creator has been in fantasy for a long long time.
I think both James and Sean have provided logical responses to your question.
Saying that you disagree doesn't change that you now have your answer.
Well said.
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Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
GMs are the god of their universe. I challenge any player to say he gained something I didn't intend for him to have. If he does, he suddenly doesn't have it anymore.
I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
You have a very different way of playing than us. I guess if you don't think the DM has the power to limit PC wealth then you may be correct about needing xp limits. I don't really understand that kind of game to comment.
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Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.GMs are the god of their universe. I challenge any player to say he gained something I didn't intend for him to have. If he does, he suddenly doesn't have it anymore.
If he gained it according to RAW and you have to step in as a DM to change that mechanically then you are invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. Now if you can find a way to use your DM powers without having to change anything mechanically then you are okay.
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You have a very different way of playing than us. I guess if you don't think the DM has the power to limit PC wealth then you may be correct about needing xp limits. I don't really understand that kind of game to comment.I think it's a good thing that they removed the XP Cost. in 3.5 if you wanted to do a wish you just could, playing you XP(an immaterial source that you can always pay). In pf a good Master can regulate the afflux of money so if you don't have money you just cannot cast a wish.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.
I'm not sure how often you frequent these boards and read through the various threads and posts but I would recommend that you do so.
Who is this us by the way? I never said I play that way but you should have to break mechanics in order to keep PC's in their place.
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Also the thing that Sean needs to understand is the fact that you could never spend XP to drop you below your current level. You and the bar drinking wizard are still able to do the same things it's just that the bar wizard will go up in level before you do. You cap at level 20 so the crafting Wizard would eventually catch up with everyone.
I could see this if the game was dependent on the Wizard creating the items for the other players and himself but it's not. Creating items is something extra and not required of the game.
Did the bar wizard buy XP beers to deserve it ?
Also, every adventurer out there is dependent on a spellcaster crafting items somewhere at some time in the game, otherwise lots of level 14 fighters would be happy to wield a masterwork sword as their awesome shiny best weapon ever.XP costs were horrible. Removing them was genius, and the game isn't suddenly more unbalanced that it was before, quite the contrary.
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You can't justify something with the "not making sense" excuse because it's a poor one. Magic item creation and essence of the creator has been in fantasy for a long long time.
I think both James and Sean have provided logical responses to your question.
Saying that you disagree doesn't change that you now have your answer.
Emmmm not logical, opinionated yes, but not logical.
If he gained it according to RAW and you have to step in as a DM to change that mechanically then you are invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. Now if you can find a way to use your DM powers without having to change anything mechanically then you are okay.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.GMs are the god of their universe. I challenge any player to say he gained something I didn't intend for him to have. If he does, he suddenly doesn't have it anymore.
This is the point I bow out of this thread.
Shallowsoul, you play a different game then I do.
As such I cant really help you here.
I play a game ammong friends where if something is disruptive we chat about it and fix it.
We do not play pathfinder like it's a computer game, where if we deviate from RAW even an ounce we are killed.
I wish you all the best in your future roleplaying.
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Also the thing that Sean needs to understand is the fact that you could never spend XP to drop you below your current level. You and the bar drinking wizard are still able to do the same things it's just that the bar wizard will go up in level before you do. You cap at level 20 so the crafting Wizard would eventually catch up with everyone.
I could see this if the game was dependent on the Wizard creating the items for the other players and himself but it's not. Creating items is something extra and not required of the game.
Did the bar wizard buy XP beers to deserve it ?
Also, every adventurer out there is dependent on a spellcaster crafting items somewhere at some time in the game, otherwise lots of level 14 fighters would be happy to wield a masterwork sword as their awesome shiny best weapon ever.XP costs were horrible. Removing them was genius, and the game isn't suddenly more unbalanced that it was before, quite the contrary.
That's called playstyle. Most items are actually either bought or found in dungeons, remember the part of the game that involves exploration, fighting monsters and finding treasure?
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If he gained it according to RAW and you have to step in as a DM to change that mechanically then you are invoking the Oberoni Fallacy. Now if you can find a way to use your DM powers without having to change anything mechanically then you are okay.Not really because there are ways that PC's can effectively gain wealth in their own without the DM having to give it to them.GMs are the god of their universe. I challenge any player to say he gained something I didn't intend for him to have. If he does, he suddenly doesn't have it anymore.This is the point I bow out of this thread.
Shallowsoul, you play a different game then I do.
As such I cant really help you here.
I play a game ammong friends where if something is disruptive we chat about it and fix it.
We do not play pathfinder like it's a computer game, where if we deviate from RAW even an ounce we are killed.
I wish you all the best in your future roleplaying.
Never said I played that way. Try giving these boards a good read through and you will be surprised. You shouldn't have to invoke rule 0 in order to keep the balance of the game.
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I'm in the process of arguing right now about a 20th level build that can make a Staff of Wish that contains 60+ wishes a day.
Well that argument has an easy RAW solution - just don't allow the staff. GMs have to approve any custom-designed magic item. Just tell the player "heck no!" and move on.
If they are using the forumlas in the CRB, throw this at them:
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
Even going by that chart, what is basically described here is a unlimited charges wish spell trigger item, which would run 17*9*1500+50*25000=about 1.5 million gp. It would also rapidly become the most sought after item on the planet.
How in the world can fabricate help with magic item crafting? You explicitly can't use it for magic items.
We removed the XP costs because we thought they were unfair. Wizards, in particular, were tripple taxed for doing their thing—in 3.5 they had to pay gold, time, AND XP in order to take advantage of their class features (scribing scrolls and crafting magic items).
Furthermore... it always felt nonsensical to me that you would "spend XP" (and thus grow LESS experienced) for successfully building a magic item, which to me feels like something that you should actually become MORE experienced at. It's non-intuitive and wonky to say "I spent all my life building magic items, and as a result I am less experienced than all those spellcasters who never built a single thing in their entire lives!"
The GM, in any case, gets to say when and where and how often players get to craft magic items; he also gets to decide whether Item Creation feats are in the game at all. So if the concept of PCs building their own magic worries you... I would do one of the following:
1) Remove Item Crafting from the game entirely.
2) Regulate Item Crafting—let crafters build items on a case by case basis.
3) Require items to utilize rare and difficult to find components. Maybe that helm of teleportation needs to be soaked in a marilith's blood before it becomes magic. Perhaps that +3 flaming burst falchion needs to have its blade tempered by an ancient red dragon's breath? And so on.
I agree with all of this. If yoy want to limit crafting look no further than this.
If you want to give it free reign let casters choose what feats they want to benefit the group without crippling themselves level wise and xp wise(making fabulous things should reward xp in my opinion).