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| 46 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
For starters, lets begin by analyzing the text of the rule.
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
Seems simple enough at first glance. But the devil is in the details here.
As far as I see it, there are two problems, or should I say questions, that arise with the Reach evolution.
1st: Does the reach evolution apply to one attack, one attack evolution, or one type of attack?
When talking about the reach evolution, I typically see people split into 3 camps:
Camp 1: The reach evolution applies to ONE attack, so if an eidolon has 6 claws, it applies to ONE claw.
Camp 2: The reach evolution applies to one attack EVOLUTION, so if an eidolon has 6 claws, it applies to TWO claws.
Camp 3: The reach evolution applies to one attack FORM, so if an eidolon has 6 claws, it applies to all SIX claws.
So at first glance, this seems like a no brainer, lets look at the text of the rule again:
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
Well that seems like it solves the problem right? After all, it says clearly one attack doesn't it? So the award goes to camp 1.
Well, hold your horses there. If rules meant what they said and said what they meant, lawyers wouldn't have a job. The reality of life is that a rule that might seem clear at first glance can be made incredibly complex if you look at it long enough.
The problem here comes from another sourcebook: Ultimate Magic.
You see, Ultimate Magic contains the following.
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
And thus here is our problem: As you can see above, in the Aboleth, the Reach evolution is being applied to tentacles, plural.
Now, notice that the Tentacle evolution is a SINGULAR evolution, which seems like not only does it defy the crowd that says that reach applies to one attack, but also the crowd that says that it applies to one attack evolution.
There's also some other reasoning for this interpretation, abilities that modify natural attacks typically affect the attack FORM.
But I can hear you saying: "Other evolutions that effect the attack form specifically call that out" and well...you're right.
Take a look at Improved Damage
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
This text admittedly creates problems. One of the first things to know when interpreting a rule is that you are supposed to assume that everything is done with a purpose. If one line of text says "natural attack" and one says "natural attack form," we are supposed to assume that the word "form" was purposely left out of the first line of text.
So this creates a problem. The rules as written and the rules as interpreted both suggest that the Reach evolution applies to one attack.
However, the very SAME rules as applied by the same people suggest that it applies to one attack FORM.
This is even more problematic when you consider question 2.
2nd: Can the reach evolution be taken more than once?
Lets go back and start again by first looking at rules text.
We'll start this time with the general rule for evolutions:
Evolutions
Each eidolon receives a number of evolution points that can be spent to give the eidolon new abilities, powers, and other upgrades. These abilities, called evolutions, can be changed whenever the summoner gains a new level, but they are otherwise set. Some evolutions require that the eidolon have a specific base form or the summoner be of a specific level before they can be chosen. A number of evolutions grant the eidolon additional natural attacks. Natural attacks listed as primary are made using the eidolon's full base attack bonus and add the eidolon's Strength modifier on damage rolls. Natural attacks listed as secondary are made using the eidolon's base attack bonus – 5 and add 1/2 the eidolon's Strength modifier on damage rolls (if positive). If the eidolon only has a single natural attack, the attack is made using its full base attack bonus and it adds 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with that attack, regardless of the attack's type.
Evolutions are grouped by their cost in evolution points. Evolution points cannot be saved. All of the points must be spent whenever the summoner gains a level. Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once.
OK! So we now know that unless the rules tell us otherwise, we can only take an evolution once.
so lets look at Reach again:
Reach (Ex): One of an eidolon's attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon's reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
...uh oh. I don't see rules text there that tells us that reach can be taken more than once. Furthermore:
Improved Damage (Ex): One of the eidolon's natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
This is bad for us too, because as I said earlier, if there is text present somewhere, and absent elsewhere, we have to assume that the absence is purposeful. Therefore, we have to assume that because they explicitly say that the improved damage evolution can be taken more than once, and because that rules text is absent from Reach, reach therefore cannot be taken more than once.
I can already see you saying "Wait a min..."
The eidolon looks like an aberrant aquatic creature such as an aboleth.
25 points: Base Form aquatic; Primary Evolutions reach (tentacles), tentacles (2); Secondary Evolutions basic magic (ghost sound), huge, large, major magic (minor image), minor magic (silent image), tentacles (2), ultimate magic (major image).
Yep...we've returned to the Aboleth problem. Because you see, if you were in Camp 1, one way to potentially explain the Aboleth would be to say "They meant take Reach for each tentacle." Which would make sense, even if it would be a terrible way to word it.
But now it looks like that's not a possible solution. So we're back to the issue: How does the Aboleth eidolon apply the reach evolution to two tentacles?
Furthermore, take a look at this:
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Saves Fort (bad), Ref (good), Will (good); Attack bite (1d6), tail slap (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11; Free Evolutions bite, climb, reach (bite), tail, tail slap.
It seems like the Serpentine Eidolon has taken the liberty for us of deciding that the reach evolution is going to go with the bite. The obvious question here would be "Does this preclude me from ever taking reach with a Serpentine" to which I would have to say...I don't know.
BUT IT GETS BETTER!
Take a look at this:
The eidolon looks like a multi-headed hydra. This model creates a five-headed hydra. A cryohydra or pyrohydra can be created by adding the breath weapon and immunity evolutions, resulting in a 26-point model.
20 points: Base Form serpentine; Primary Evolutions bite, head; Secondary Evolutions bite (3), fast healing, head (3), large.
YIKES! Now we've got a big problem here. This build is supposed to give us a 5 headed hydra by adding 4 more heads and 4 more bites to the standard Serpentine Eidolon.
But now we know that the Serpentine Eidolon already has Reach (bite). Now this leads us to an interesting pickle:
According to the rules, the Reach evolution can only be taken once.
If Camp 1 (and for this example, Camp 2) are right: We have an Eidolon with 5 heads, but only one has Reach, and we can't give any of the other heads reach, because we can only take the Reach evolution once.
If Camp 3 is right: We have an Eidolon with 5 heads, and all 5 heads have reach. This seems to me to be a lot more in line with the idea of a hydra and probably what was intended with the design.
So that's kinda where I'm at.
1st: Does the reach evolution apply to one attack, one attack evolution, or one type of attack? I say one type of attack because of how the evolution is applied in Ultimate Magic.
2nd: Can the reach evolution be taken more than once? I say no, based on the text, although it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially if your answer to question 1 is that Reach only applies to one attack, period.
If you wouldn't mind FAQing this, I would appreciate it. I doubt we'll get clarification soon, but it doesn't hurt to try.
The RAW is obviously that it applies to a single attack.
I do not know if the RAI is that it applies to one type of attack, though, because stat blocks are often wrong. If the guy that made the example eidolons misunderstood the evolution, for example, which happens more than one would like, the aboleth and hydra could simply be wrong.
1st, Camp 2 can be eliminated. You can get a Reach Evolution without having any "attack evolutions"; for instance by applying the Evolved Familiar feat.
Seems like the simplest answer is that the examples are wrong. It's happened before (see personal target potions in the GMG).
FAQd.
Another thing occurred to me. The reach evolution came out in the APG, and the examples came out a year or so (I don't actually remember) in Ultimate Magic.
There are 3 examples I can think of where later books had rules differing from earlier ones.
1) The GMG personal potions one, mentioned above. (Mistake)
2) UM stating that the creator must meet the caster level, and it can't be ignored like other requirements (unresolved, I'm hoping it's a mistake)
3) Barbarian Totem Warrior archetype in UC saying it would let you take multiple totems (mistake)
So! If people were using it for the year before UM came out, I think the best reading of it is just what it says: one attack gets +5 reach.
I searched the playtest forums for talk by Jason about this one, and the same question was being asked (type vs single), but the concensus seemed to be one single attack. I didn't see anything from Jason, although I did find a nice post where he says you can't use climb speed horizontally, so it's still a net-win :D
The aquatic base form's INA counts against the limit of times you can take that evolution, so it follows that the serpentine base form cannot select Reach again.
Of course, there is a case in the rules where "attack" DOES actually mean "attack type", which muddies things up far more than I desire.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Want another issue?
Can the Reach evolution can be applied to Manufactured Weapon attacks?
Argument for: It just says can be applied to 'an attack', not specifying 'a natural attack' like in most other evolutions.
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stuff.
FAQed, but it is one more reason to agree with JJ and have the eidolon work like the a druid animal companion with a several pre-made forms and only a small level of customization.
As new evolutions are added to the game this kind of problems will increase in number, especially as some writer will assume one interpretation of the rules, some writer a different interpretation.
If I took Evolved Familiar to give my tiny-sized familiar reach, would that mean it could threaten adjacent squares? Maybe even provide the party rogue a flanking advantage?
Yes. Tiny creatures have a natural reach of 0ft. With a "reach" ability they get a reach of 5ft. You can also choose a small familiar like a goose.
FAQd
- Gauss
Pretty sure one of the devs already answered this somewhere (it's supposed to apply to a a type of natural attack).
Awesome, I'm glad Paizo went with this answer!
Eidolons don't need the help, and having just 1 attack at greater reach is still a huge boon, as you now threaten a wider area for AoOs.
For the sake of having the answer in the forum thread. . .
Summoner: If I choose the reach evolution for my eidolon, how many of its attacks gains increased reach?
The ability description says "pick one attack," not "pick one attack type." So if your eidolon has two claws and you pick "claw" for the reach evolution, only one claw gets increased reach. (The reach evolution is intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws.)
—Pathfinder Design Team, today (April 26, 2013)
NO!!! You did it wrong!
Spits. Stomps. Throws things. Collapses in a heap of tears while muttering that "it wasn't supposed to be like this."
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Also, Ultimate Magic will require errata now as some of the sample eidolons explicitly go against this ruling.
To my knowledge no other published creature has different reach ranges for the same type of attack, so is it any wonder most people believed the inverse of this ruling was the way it was intended?
...Yet another precedent-breaking exception to the rules for the summoner. It's no wonder no one can build a proper summoner/eidolon character; no one knows which way is up anymore.
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What's more, I would like to thank the Paizo Design Team for finally putting this matter to rest. Being wrong is still better than being ignored.
It's not wrong. The evo was worded differently than all the others from the beginning, I didn't even realize this was "in dispute" till I saw this thread.
Did you really think +5 ft reach on all attacks (and "all of the same type" is effectively this; most people stick to one type anyway for maximum benefit of Imp. Natural Attack, etc...) for 1 measly evo point was in any way shape or form balanced, or EVER intended?
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It wasn't just me Streams, it was much of the observable roleplaying community that believed that to be the case. Heck, even oen or more designers believed it to be the case at one point (otherwise, the sample eidolons in UM wouldn't exist).
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It wasn't just me Streams, it was much of the observable roleplaying community that believed that to be the case. Heck, even oen or more designers believed it to be the case at one point (otherwise, the sample eidolons in UM wouldn't exist).
Contributors, Rav, not necessarily developers.
Actually people like Jason Nelson are listed as developers in the credit page of Ultimate Magic. So "People that are developers for a specific product but not Paizo permanent employees".And 43 hit to get a FAQ. My questions are a long way from getting an answer. :(
Maybe I should stop hitting the FAQ button for other people question, so my question will get on top eventually. :-P
Jesting, I will still FAQ worthwhile questions.
This might be already answered, but I just wanted to check- has there been any word on applying the Reach evolution to manufactured attacks?
I figure that if the limb has reach evo, any attack you make with it would benefit. But then again, I thought the evo's wording was clear and obvious from the start, so what do I know?
If it *does* apply to a weapon held in that hand, I would think that you'd be limited to 1H-ing with it if you want the reach - trying to 2H a weapon with a reach arm and a non-reach arm would not give you the reach.
I'm confused by the FAQ clarification. Reach can only be taken for 1 attack, but it doesn't specifically say you can take it more than once.
It also says in the Large evolution "If the eidolon has the biped base form, it also gains 10-foot reach. Any reach evolution[b]s[/s] the eidolon possesses are added to this total."
Should reach specify it can be taken more than once? Or is my critter doomed to only have 1 long arm and 1 short arm?
It's really not confusing at all...
"(The reach evolution is intended to let you emulate having a dragon-eidolon, as a dragon's bite attack has greater reach than its claws.)"
Dragons have a single natural attack that is at greater reach than any of its potentially many others, the bite. The evolution is meant to let you mimic such a set up for your eidolon. NOT to give you a blanket reach bonus on all attacks or whatever.
Again, it's still very good just for threatening a wider area / AoO build. I wouldn't mind if you could take it multiple times to enhance each attack, but as answered, the intent was never to give every attack a reach bonus anyway. Just emulate how a dragon works.
Drats. I just wanted my monkey to have really long arms. Curses!
As said I guess it'll have to be DM voice on the subject since it's not RAW. Boo and stink.
The reach evolution has no effect on the polearm. Its not one of the eidolons natural attacks.
I always assumed it affectedba single attack (ie slam) or pair of attacks purchases as onenunit (ie pair of claws)
Has there ever been an answer on how many times Reach can be taken, or if taken more than once if it can be put on the same attack?
Yes, in the Advanced Players Guide: "Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
Yeah thax, apparently you're stuck with an eidolon that looks stupid because it has 1 massively long arm and a bunch of regular sized ones. No idea why of course.
I don't have the post at hand to back it up, but designer intent is for dragon-like eidolons with long necks.
Just say that all the arms are long, but he doesn't have the coordination to attack at full reach with more than one arm. In practice, I've found that one reach arm does most of the job of 4 reach arms.
So, what if you put reach on slam, which uses both arms? Then try to use your slam arms to wield a weapon. Are attacks with that weapon also reach.
If the intent was just for dragon bite, why not have reach be a head only evolution?
Another problem with reach logic: if reach is applied to a weapon attack, then it wouldn't be reach to a natural attack and thus you wouldn't threaten within 5 feet with that attack.
As I understand it, Slam can only be taken once per pair of limbs, but is not actually using both limbs. It is not, for example, getting 1.5x str to damage and triple power attack like a single natural weapon or manufactured weapon wielded in two hands gets.
As for Reach evo with held weapons...I think it would apply for a weapon held in the specific limb that has reach, but would not work for a 2H weapon (since then one of the limbs does not provide the reach for it). By strict RAW, it might not work at all, but that's how I'd handle it.
In any case, more reach is a big advantage and the evo is still very very low-priced. Even if you can only take it one time it's a great deal for threatening a bigger area. You can still enlarge person the eidolon to potentially give it more reach, too. Plus the size evolutions.
As I understand it, Slam can only be taken once per pair of limbs, but is not actually using both limbs. It is not, for example, getting 1.5x str to damage and triple power attack like a single natural weapon or manufactured weapon wielded in two hands gets.
That seems pretty contradictory. Why do you need to use the whole pair for the evolution if only one limb gets the slam? Do you think I should be able to wield a weapon with one hand while slamming with the other? How is it not the same thing?
I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as 1.5x for two handed natural attacks, but slam would get the 1.5x, if it were your only natural attack, such as a biped replacing his claws with slam.
I don't know why you only get one slam, it seems pretty dumb to me. But it's the rule. You should have the other hand free to use a shield or whatever since you're not using it to attack.
If it were up to me, you'd just get 2 slams and the damage would drop by one die size if two slams proved "too good."
