Are Small Air Elementals overpowered?

[Yepyepyep]

I just wanted to see if this is legal, but it seems small air elementals are very overpowered. Playing in a campaign as a level 6 Master Summoner, I recently summoned 7 small air elementals over the course of two rounds in a dicey combat where we were fighting 10+ monsters. The whirlwind ability of the elementals seems just ridiculous. I had all the elementals move through the squares of at least 4 monsters each until all of the monsters were caught in the whirlwind. The DC for the reflex was 14 (12 base, augment summoning +2 str = 14). The bard had done something to reduce their saves even further. In one round I had gobbled up all the mobs and done their slam attack without taking any attacks of opportunity as per the whirlwind ability, then had them fly up in the air, 80+ feet in most cases. The next round a few escaped and fell to their deaths. The next round I went up another 100 ft and ended the spell, resulting in the rest dying horrible falling deaths. Is this actually within the rules? We were flabbergasted at the table, but couldn't find any reason that this was not legal.

This could also be amazing if you use lantern archons to gestalt into large elementals...

[Drejk]

Comparing 3.5 and PF text I see the source of the problem: originally only creatures that were smaller than the elemental could be affected by the whirlwind. In Pathfinder it was changed to creatures smaller than the whirlwind which opens a whole can of worms because small elemental's whirlwind is ten to twenty feet high with five to ten feet width at the top and thus easily falls into Large+ size.

A single note about encounter you described: small elemental's whirlwind lasts for a total of 1 round per activation so they could start they turn, activate whirlwind (no action is specified so I assume standard action for a supernatural ability) and then spend single move action moving over creatures you try to catch - whirlwind would end at the beginning of their following turn as they used up all the available duration. It would be debatable if they could still deal automatic slam damage before releasing the victim's or not.

[Yepyepyep]

They could still be summoned, move say 20 ft on the ground scooping up a few bad guys, then go 80 ft in the air right? At the beginning of their next turn they would end the whirlwind and the bad guys would fall 80 ft, or 8d6 damage. Makes a wizard with fireball cry I bet. Also, I couldn't find text about how many creatures could be trapped in the whirlwind, it makes it seem like any number actually can.

[Heaggles]

As a DM i would say that they can not pick up anything larger then them selfs so a small elemental would pick up a goblin but not a human. But that is just me.

[Yepyepyep]

Oh I found the text about how many you can have in it..."The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume." But still, 5 ft at base and 20 ft high with 10 ft width at the top is...6 squares or 30 square ft? You could trap 1 large creature and two small creatures...wow.

[Dust Raven]

The Whirlwind ability has always confused me. It says "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" but there seems to be no indication what size category any given whirlwind is. I've just assumed the whirlwind's size category was equal to that of the creature transformed into it.

[Yepyepyep]

Where does it say "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind"? I can only find this regarding sizes for whirlwind:

"Creatures trapped in the whirlwind cannot move except to go where the whirlwind carries them or to escape the whirlwind. Trapped creatures can otherwise act normally, but must succeed at a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell. Creatures caught in the whirlwind take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and a –2 penalty on attack rolls. The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume. As a free action, the whirlwind can eject any carried creatures whenever it wishes, depositing them in its space."

[MechE_]

Was each creature on size category smaller than the whirlwind (since that's what it takes to be "affected") and did each creature fail two saves in a row to be picked up by the whirlwind?

"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful."

Also, why was the whirlwind moving 80 feet upward in a round? The speed of a small air elemental (and thus the whirlwind) is 100 feet. So it can ascend at half that speed on a single move action meaning that using two move actions can move it 100 feet up into the air. I suppose it is also possible to take a run action, but I personally would probably not allow that for a whirlwind carrying creatures in it.

[Yepyepyep]

My group must not be using the correct site for getting our rules information. We are using this- http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Whirlwind-Su-

Should I not use that website for information on Pathfinder rules? Because according to www.d20pfsrd.com whirlwind is not limited to the size of creatures at all.

[Set]

Yepyepyep wrote:

My group must not be using the correct site for getting our rules information. We are using this- http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules #TOC-Whirlwind-Su-

Should I not use that website for information on Pathfinder rules? Because according to www.d20pfsrd.com whirlwind is not limited to the size of creatures at all.

d20pfsrd.com may not have the very latest up to date eratted version of a rule. Paizo maintains it's own SRD site with universal monster rules (and plenty of other stuff) here.

I'm not sure what's up with this particular instance, because my printed copy of the Bestiary includes the 'one or more sizes classes smaller' text, but also muddles it by mentioning the size of the whirlwind and the size of the elemental seperately, even perhaps leaving the reader with the impression that the slam damage is based off of the whirlwind size, and not the elemental size, which would make the ability *even more potent.* (And I'd bet a shiny nickel isn't what the writer intended.)

Note, in any case, that the elemental can only remain in whirlwind form for 1 round / 2 HD, which, for a small elemental, is 1 round total. At best, it might be able to carry a creature 50 ft. into the air (assuming it started in that creatures square), so your example of dragging creatures hundreds of feet into the air wouldn't be an option until at least medium elementals are available.

[Bertious]

I'm fairly sure (although have no RAW data to prove it) that as the whirlwind ability does not say it alters the size of the creature using it a small air elemental becomes a small whirlwind. As to why it says size of the whirlwind in place of size of the elemental i would guess that it's to cover them if some other onster has the ability and due to word count size of the creature using the ability is a little long :).

[Yepyepyep]

So lets take this scenario-
Master Summoner casts create pit near a monster. The next round he summons 4 small air elementals surrounding the monster on all sides. Air elementals all go whirlwind. Air elemental #1 moves into the space of the monster, forcing him to make a save or take slam damage and a second save to be engulfed. Monster makes both saves. Air elemental #1 then moves back to his original space. He has now used up 10ft of movement. His movement is 100ft. He can do this 9 more times this round? With 4 elementals you could make a monster save 40 times (assuming he keeps making all these reflex saves) for being engulfed per round yeah? Once engulfed, elemental drops them into pit for lots of damage...what am I missing?

[Yepyepyep]

By these rules...are we assuming that a small or larger creature can't be picked up and moved at all by a small elemental?

"Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (generally damage equal to the monster's slam attack for a creature of its size) and may be lifted into the air. An affected creature must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 10 + half monster's HD + the monster's Strength modifier) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take damage as if it were hit by the whirlwind creature's slam attack. It must also succeed on a second Reflex save or be picked up bodily and held suspended in the powerful winds, automatically taking the indicated damage each round. A creature that can fly is allowed a Reflex save each round to escape the whirlwind. The creature still takes damage but can leave if the save is successful."

[Blueluck]

Dust Raven wrote:

The Whirlwind ability has always confused me. It says "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" but there seems to be no indication what size category any given whirlwind is. I've just assumed the whirlwind's size category was equal to that of the creature transformed into it.

I've always operated on that assumption as well.

[Set]

Yepyepyep wrote:

Air elemental #1 moves into the space of the monster, forcing him to make a save or take slam damage and a second save to be engulfed. Monster makes both saves. Air elemental #1 then moves back to his original space. He has now used up 10ft of movement. His movement is 100ft. He can do this 9 more times this round?

The whirlwind rules as written seem to allow this.

Most GMs would probably house rule on the spot that the whirlwind can only affect a given creature one time in a single round, and better written abilities tend to have wording to this effect, such as the way swarm damage deals automatic damage to any creature that ends its turn in the swarms area (rewriting whirlwind to similarly only deal damage at the end of the round, and not at any instance of contact, would be one option).

[Taenia]

The comment for the size of the whirlwind determining the size of the creature you can affect by the whirlwind attack was written in the first Bestiary. In the second Bestiary and on the ttps://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/home website it shows a ruling indicating size doesn't matter but the whirlwind can only hold creatures or a number of creatures that can be contained in its volume.

This may indicate a rule change, and generally the most recently printed book (Bestiary 2) would take precendence.

I don't have Bestiary 3 so not sure what the ruling was if it was reprinted in there.

[Artanthos]

Blueluck wrote:

Dust Raven wrote:

The Whirlwind ability has always confused me. It says "Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind" but there seems to be no indication what size category any given whirlwind is. I've just assumed the whirlwind's size category was equal to that of the creature transformed into it.

I've always operated on that assumption as well.

The dimensions given for the whirlwind are considerably larger than those of a small creature.

[Indivar]

I have also been confused on this one. I had assumed that the actual size of the elemental was the issue, not the size of the actual whirlwind...official clarification would be in order I would think.

[Ravingdork]

The average human being takes up between 2 and 5 cubic feet.

A small air elemental whirlwind (20' tall, 10' diameter width at the top) can hold 523.6 cubic feet within its whirlwind.

Think about that for a moment.