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As many of you are aware Paizo's sister company Goblinworks LLC is currently having a Kickstarter to gain additional funding to advance their release timeline of the Pathfinder MMO. This isn't a discussion about that, but instead the awesome Emerald Spire super-dungeon they are doing in addition to the MMO.
Being a dedicated tabletop player this SuperDungeon sounds like it woulc be really great and already has an all star cast of authors working on it.
Wolfgang Baur (CEO of Open Design, and legendary TSR designer)
F. Wesley Schneider (Paizo Editor-In-Chief and creator of Ustalav)
James Sutter (Paizo Fiction Editor and creator of Kaer Maga)
Lisa Stevens (CEO of Paizo, and co-founder of White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast)
Keith Baker (Creator of the Eberron campaign setting for D&D)
Ed Greenwood (Creator of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting for D&D)
Erik Mona (Publisher and co-creator of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting)
Mark Rein-Hagen (Co-founder of White Wolf Publishing, author of Ars Magica,Vampire: The Masquerade, Werewolf: The Apocalypse, Wraith: The Oblivion, andChangeling: The Dreaming)
Jason Bulmahn (Lead designer of the Pathfinder RPG and co-creator of the Pathfinder Campaign Setting)
Frank Mentzer (Founder of the RPGA, co-author of The Temple of Elemental Evil, author of D&D boxed sets)
James Jacobs (Creative Director and creator of the Pathfinder Adventure Path and Varisia)
Jordan Weisman
Mike Stackpole
The reason I am here today is to request your aid in making this SuperDungeon better, maybe even breaking the record for the biggest tabletop SuperDungeon! I've As it stands when the project funds the SuperDungeon will consist of approx. 12 levels. For each $100,000 they raise over the $1Mill they will add another level. This is not only great for the SuperDungeon book, but also that they add a new flip-mat for each level.
So if we could raise an extra $3.8Mill we could add an extra 38 levels to the dungeon bringing it to a whopping 50 level SuperDungeon! This would also mean there would be at least 50 flip-mats. In order to do this we would need a good deal of people backing the project. So for this to work here are the numbers:
19,000 people pledging $200 for the PDFs, PnP products (including all the miniatures) This would be the Crowdforger Pioneer with Print Pack Addon.
Now you may ask ok, sounds interesting but why would I want to spend any money to make this better? Well aside from making an awesome Pathfinder product you would be getting this at a tremendous value!
Let's assume that the base price of the book for the 12 levels is going to be somewhere between ~$40-$60 (ie the price of a hardcover or something like the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition), then each flip-mat costs ~$13. The PDFs for the book would be somewhere between ~$10-$40 and for the flip-mats ~$9. So as it stands with just the base book and flip-mats (retail & PDFs) if you bought it retail from Paizo it would cost between ~$182-$232 (assuming there are 6 double sided flip-mats to cover the 12 levels)
So you break about even if you pledge the $200 as far as the books are concerned. However, pledging $200 includes a lot of other benefits. Since this discussion isn't about the MMO let's leave all those out (although they are great). So other PnP products you get 9 re-painted plastic minis at ~$5-$8/piece, a HUGE PDF bundle with 59 products from 37 different publishers, with a total retail value of ~$318.50, a PDF Pathfinder Tales novel ~$7 and the hard copy ~$10, the Emerald Spire campaign cards ~$11, and the PFO soundtrack.
So for $200 you essentially get between ~$582.50-$650.50. So ok that sounds a lot better right? Well now think about this. If we did somehow manage to get the additional funding to boost the SuperDungeon to 50 levels you would still only pay $200 but you would get a HUGE increase in value. We would have to take the book price out of it simply because I don't even know how much a book that size would cost, but with the extra 38 flip-mats & pdfs alone that would be ~$836 purchased separately, the extra 38 minis would be between ~$190-$340.
So not including the added price of the book, which it would definitely be more expensive with a 50 level SuperDungeon. You would be paying $200 with free shipping in the US for goods worth between ~$1608-$1826
That is about an 90% discount.
So, with all that knowledge I make this plea:
Please, please go back the project and get as many tabletop players as you know to back it as well!!
So, with all that knowledge I make this plea:
Please, please go back the project and get as many tabletop players as you know to back it as well!!
Done, and done.
I'd rather have something published by Paizo personally.
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So if we could raise an extra $3.8Mill we could add an extra 38 levels to the dungeon bringing it to a whopping 50 level SuperDungeon!
I'll be the voice of pessimism. It's gonna be doing good to get funded period. At this point, expecting an extra $3.8 million is setting yourself up for MASSIVE disappointment.
You want a huge megadungeon? I recommend Rappan Athuk.
I'll be the voice of pessimism. It's gonna be doing good to get funded period. At this point, expecting an extra $3.8 million is setting yourself up for MASSIVE disappointment.
Oh, don't worry, we've got lots of those. Although I agree, I don't think we'll get as high as $3.8 million. People can hope though, never hurts :)
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So if we could raise an extra $3.8Mill we could add an extra 38 levels to the dungeon bringing it to a whopping 50 level SuperDungeon!I'll be the voice of pessimism. It's gonna be doing good to get funded period. At this point, expecting an extra $3.8 million is setting yourself up for MASSIVE disappointment.
You want a huge megadungeon? I recommend Rappan Athuk.
You could be right, but 4 days should be enough time to get the word out to at least 19,000 people to get some more money for this.
If the community banded together and really pushed to get this going I still think it could be done.
Even without the extra $3.8Mill it is still a good deal. The extra money would simply make it better!
I mean just think in 30 min I got at least 3 people to look at this, if they each get 3 people in 30 mins, etc etc. The first hour would 9 people the second hour would be 81 people, the third hour 729 people and it just keeps going.
Is it a stretch, yes. Can it be done, most certainly if the community really wants it done.
Why is it so important to have it published by Paizo.
The things I linked to are written by respected, experienced RPG writers and those that have been released have really enthusiastic, positive reviews.
It is more of a perspective I think. With open gaming licence in D&D there were A LOT of 3rd party source books that very much unbalanced the game. Because of this a lot of GM's started disallowing 3rd party materials. People trust Paizo to be balanced about the material they put out.
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Why is it so important to have it published by Paizo.
The things I linked to are written by respected, experienced RPG writers and those that have been released have really enthusiastic, positive reviews.
It's not a case of either/or. I have those other megadungeon adventures but this is an "as well" thing. It will be full color, come with flipmats, be developed/editted by Paizo, art directed by Paizo, set in Golarion, etcetera.
.If we can make it happen it will be a cool thing. That's not a slur on all the other cool things which already exist. :)
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It's not a case of either/or. I have those other megadungeon adventures but this is an "as well" thing. It will be full color, come with flipmats, be developed/editted by Paizo, art directed by Paizo, set in Golarion, etcetera.
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If we can make it happen it will be a cool thing. That's not a slur on all the other cool things which already exist. :)
Couldn't have said it any better!
Why is it so important to have it published by Paizo.
The things I linked to are written by respected, experienced RPG writers and those that have been released have really enthusiastic, positive reviews.
It's not a case of either/or. I have those other megadungeon adventures but this is an "as well" thing. It will be full color, come with flipmats, be developed/editted by Paizo, art directed by Paizo, set in Golarion, etcetera.
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If we can make it happen it will be a cool thing. That's not a slur on all the other cool things which already exist. :)
I am with Steve on this one. I will and have supported cool projects whether they are Paizo or 3PP. So the question is, do you want to see a cool new product come into existence? If you do, then pledge at the link the OP provided. Here's hoping!
You could be right, but 4 days should be enough time to get the word out to at least 19,000 people to get some more money for this.
You want to increase the number of backers by 350% in 4 days? I'm sorry, but that's really, really optimistic.
If you want to get just the physical product you can pledge $5 and then increase that pledge by $100 for the print add-on (plus $15 if you live outside the US). For that, assuming the project funds, you'll get the book, the flipmats a deck of cards and a pathfinder tales novel.
So to get that - select the $5 tier but make your pledge $105 ($120 if you're not in the US).
If you want to get the PDF of emerald spire as well, you should pledge at the $15 level and add on the $100 or $115 respectively. (ie select the $15 tier and make your pledge $115 or $130, depending on where you live).
If you want to get a whole bunch of PDFs, nine miniatures, plus the emerald spire book and PDF (plus some flip mats) you should pledge at the $100 level and add on $100 or $115 if youre outside the US. To get this (the best toal value deal for the TTRPG, even if you just ignore the MMORPG stuff) you should select the $100 tier and make your pledge $200 or $215 (depending on nationality).
No matter how big the book gets you wont have to pay any extra. After the project funds you'll be sent a survey so that if you've pledged over your required amount you can clarify exactly what add-on you were pledging for.
The $200/$215 deal is really exceptional value irrespective of whether you are interested in the MMORPG (which you'll get as part of that pledge).
Assuming you want all the PDFs, the flipmats, the emerald spire dungeon, the miniatures - it's very hard to see this as anything other than ridiculously cheap.
Sorry already spent my $200 on the Rise of the Runelords Collector's Edition, beats the hell out of the pdf perks listed for the MMO.
This is not a way to get the tabletop gamers to pledge big money on a MMO. I have almost half of the pdfs offered.
Good luck
Yeah, if the PDFs arent of interest then there's probably not a lot of point in the $100pledge+$100 add on. (Although it is nearly $400 of PDFs so even half of them is a bargain. It does include nine repainted minis as well - again depending on value to the specific TTRPGer).
.The $100 print add-on is great value on its own though (again, assuming one wants a mega-dungeon with flip mats). I think both of them are great ways to get some tabletop gamers involved - you'll never hit everyone's sweet spot, of course.
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If you want to get just the physical product you can pledge $5 and then increase that pledge by $100 for the print add-on (plus $15 if you live outside the US). For that, assuming the project funds, you'll get the book, the flipmats a deck of cards and a pathfinder tales novel.
So to get that - select the $5 tier but make your pledge $105 ($120 if you're not in the US).
If you want to get the PDF of emerald spire as well, you should pledge at the $15 level and add on the $100 or $115 respectively. (ie select the $15 tier and make your pledge $115 or $130, depending on where you live).
To quote from the Kickstarter FAQ
"Will I get PDF versions of the contents of the RPG Print Pack Add On?
Yes! Everyone who purchases the Add On will also get PDF versions of the printed content!"
So you don't need to spend the $115/$130, just the $105/$120 to get the PDFs of the Dungeon, Flip Mats and Book (I am assuming not the cards, as they don't do PDFs of the current card range).
Oh thanks. I missed that. Even better then. :)
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And a bit of a stealth addition from today's email from Lisa:
"And now I am super happy to report that our partners at Reaper have agreed to make two brand-new unpainted metal Pathfinder Miniatures for this Kickstarter! Baron Tervin Blackshield, ruler of Thornkeep, and goblin commander of the Accursed Halls, Murgmo, come from the pages of the Pathfinder Online: Thornkeep book, which happens to be shipping this month! These two Reaper minis will be added to the $100 Crowdforger Pioneer level (and any level which contains the Crowdforger Pioneer benefits), the $100 RPG Print Pack Add-on, and the $500 Hellknight's Most Wanted Add-on."
So two Reaper figures also join the $100 RPG Print Pack Add-on.
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I do really want a copy of Emerald Spire and even though I already have a lot of the PDFs the ones I don't have would be nice to get. To be honest though it doesn't really feel right to me to back a Kickstarter when I'm not really interested in the main product of the Kickstarter. So I've been wavering back and forth a bit over whether to back it or not. Need to decide soon though!
Yeah...I'm struggling with this one also - I don't wish any ill will on the endeavor but I do not have any interest in the online game whatsoever. On the other hand, I've been a slavering Paizo fan and evangelist almost since the very beginning. I want the Megadungeon - the rest is just fluff and filler. Do I spend a lot of money on a side note? What to do...what to do...
So, with all that knowledge I make this plea:
Please, please go back the project and get as many tabletop players as you know to back it as well!!
Done, and done.
I'd rather have something published by Paizo personally.
To each his own. Personally I would rather NOT have something done by Paizo. I trust these particular 3PP to write in the manner I wish to run my games.
I may be misinterpreting the 3PP responses, but it almost seems like a few of you wish that Paizo not make this Superdungeon 'because someone else has made one'.
It's great that there are 3pp out there that have made them. A lot of people would like to be able to include such a 'Megadungeon' that has also been made by Paizo.
If you have gotten the impression that these Pro-Kickstarter posts have been trying to imply '3pp are inferior, so pledge for this instead', then I'm sorry for that. I don't think anyone here meant to do that.
I am surprised you seemed so turned off by the idea in your post, GeraintElberion. You seemed like you were interested at least at some point:
Is the new Kickstarter Superdungeon going to be available for general release like Thornkeep?
I really hope so.
Or maybe your issue is with the Kickstarter's main goal instead?
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I am surprised you seemed so turned off by the idea in your post, GeraintElberion. You seemed like you were interested at least at some point:Or maybe your issue is with the Kickstarter's main goal instead?Is the new Kickstarter Superdungeon going to be available for general release like Thornkeep?
I really hope so.
From what I've encountered it seems like a lot of the complaints have been against backing the MMO, but what I don't understand is if you don't care about the MMO (unless you are actually actively wanting to harm the MMO) then why wouldn't you back just to make the PnP rewards better?
Even if you paid $200 (+$15 if non-US) and never used any of the MMO rewards you are still more than getting your monies worth in just the PnP products and the more people that back the better the PnP products get and the better the value becomes.
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I may be misinterpreting the 3PP responses, but it almost seems like a few of you wish that Paizo not make this Superdungeon 'because someone else has made one'.
Not at all. In fact, I'm in for the PDF. But at this point, like I said, it would be best to hope for something plausible...like it being fully funded, instead of the extra $4.8 million it would need on top of the $1 million funding to satisfy some random "largest megadungeon EVER" goal (calculated against Rappan Athuk).
I can't speak for anyone else, but if the Kickstarter had been for Emerald Spire itself I probably would have supported it.
I have no interest whatsoever in supporting the MMO. If it makes it on its own, I'll tip in for Emerald Spire, but otherwise no thank you.
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I may be misinterpreting the 3PP responses, but it almost seems like a few of you wish that Paizo not make this Superdungeon 'because someone else has made one'.Not at all. In fact, I'm in for the PDF. But at this point, like I said, it would be best to hope for something plausible...like it being fully funded, instead of the extra $4.8 million it would need on top of the $1 million funding to satisfy some random "largest megadungeon EVER" goal (calculated against Rappan Athuk).
Actually, even if it did somehow the $5.8 million mark, I dunno if it would actually be larger than RA, since Emerald Spire has an artificial size restriction placed on it's levels...they have to fit within a FlipMat.
Nice work!
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I can't speak for anyone else, but if the Kickstarter had been for Emerald Spire itself I probably would have supported it.
I have no interest whatsoever in supporting the MMO. If it makes it on its own, I'll tip in for Emerald Spire, but otherwise no thank you.
If you pay $15 + $100 for the Print Pack you will be paying for the Emerald Spire Super Dungeon PDF and Print Pack, you won't get any videogame stuff at all. Now what Goblinworks does with that money doesn't matter (any more than paying for an AP or Flipmat does). You get what you want, (The Emerald Spire PDF) and Paizo/Goblinworks get what they want (funding for the MMO). Everybody wins!
This MMO is happening either way, by not throwing in for the Kickstarter you're just guaranteeing that the Emerald Spire won't happen at all. $115 bucks for Emerald Spire PDF, Hardcover, Flip-Mats, a Novel and other awesome goodies is a pretty great price. There's only 70 hours to go (as of posting).
I have no real interest in the MMO either, but this superdungeon has REALLY got me excited and it will not happen at all if this kickstarter does not get funded.
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Just another bonus, now they are getting two new Reaper metal minis added for anyone at the Crowdforger levels or with the Print Pack Addon.
Crowdforger Reward Bonus - Reaper MIniatures
Our friends at Reaper have provided us with a great addition to the Crowdforger Rewards! Baron Tervin Blackshield, ruler of Thornkeep, and goblin commander of the Accursed Halls, Murgmo, come from the pages of the Pathfinder Online: Thornkeep book. These unpainted metal miniatures will be included free for all Crowdforger Rewards AND to the RPG Print Pack Add-On and the Hellknights Most Wanted Add-On!
Image of the Goblin is on the main KS page.
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As per my OP even if you don't care about the MMO (which should inevitably bring in more customers to the tabletop scene) just the PnP rewards are a great deal!
I have no interest in the MMO.
But I am with Orthos... I might have backed the Emerald Spire as a KS project. However, I'll go on to say that I'm glad Paizo doesn't use KS to fund their projects (even one-offs like the RotRL-AE); they can leave that to GW.
-Skeld
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If you pay $15 + $100 for the Print Pack you will be paying for the Emerald Spire Super Dungeon PDF and Print Pack, you won't get any videogame stuff at all. Now what Goblinworks does with that money doesn't matter (any more than paying for an AP or Flipmat does). You get what you want, (The Emerald Spire PDF) and Paizo/Goblinworks get what they want (funding for the MMO). Everybody wins!
I don't know that just seems... strange. It's like saying, "We know you don't want the product, but we want you to give us money anyway, so here are some rewards semi-related to the project." It's almost like admitting that the end goal of the project isn't something that most of your target audience is interested in supporting, so here are some things to get you to throw us some money (and $15 + $100 seems like alot of cash to throw at a project you aren't interested in). Meh.
-Skeld
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Just want to illustrate, if you are holding out for Paizo to release the SuperDungeon if this doesn't fund that will not be the case.
Quote directly from Lisa Stevens:
No this product will ONLY be made if we reach the $1 million funding goal for this Kickstarter. None of the print products will be made. Could we eventually do a much smaller Fort Inevitable sourcebook? Sure. But it would be something like 32 pages and wouldn't include a Superdungeon with an all-star cast of authors. The ONLY way that is getting made is if we get our funding.
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If you pay $15 + $100 for the Print Pack you will be paying for the Emerald Spire Super Dungeon PDF and Print Pack, you won't get any videogame stuff at all. Now what Goblinworks does with that money doesn't matter (any more than paying for an AP or Flipmat does). You get what you want, (The Emerald Spire PDF) and Paizo/Goblinworks get what they want (funding for the MMO). Everybody wins!I don't know that just seems... strange. It's like saying, "We know you don't want the product, but we want you to give us money anyway, so here are some rewards semi-related to the project." It's almost like admitting that the end goal of the project isn't something that most of your target audience is interested in supporting, so here are some things to get you to throw us some money (and $15 + $100 seems like alot of cash to throw at a project you aren't interested in). Meh.
-Skeld
The Emerald Spire is directly related to the MMO though as it will very likely be content in the MMO at some point in the future, just like Thornkeep is already planned to be content of the MMO. It's just a great incentive for the non-mmo crowd so we can all get an awesome SuperDungeon and also give a little boost to the MMO.
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Seriously, don't you already have your own entire sub-forum for this ? There isn't a single person here who isn't already getting spammed to death by this kickstarter. It's getting a bit much.
Yeah, I have one my players just telling me last night on the insane amount of spamming he gets on his emails for this MMO, he's tired of hearing about it.
It's a way bit too much, I can't wait until it's over so we can get back the tabletop stuff. I thought about $15 for the Emerald Spire PDF but I'll just spend it on other Paizo products.
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It seems a little spiteful to not fund because it's not ONLY for Emerald Spire. Back for just the book, and everybody wins.
Spiteful? Really? Kickstarter is about supporting a project you're interested in and making sure the company can make it happen. It's not intended to be a store; it says so right in the site description. If someone isn't interested In the main project that's being funded, then there's nothing wrong with choosing not to fund it.
There are a number of us in this community who feel that this Kickstarter has become an increasing number of bribes to get those of us who aren't interested in an MMO to part with our hard-earned money. Personally, I don't care how good a deal the PnP stuff is from backing; it bothers me the way this KS has played out. Kindly don't disrespect our points of view; that kind of comment certainly won't change my mind about backing.
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Yes it might not fund but I still think it has a good chance.
In either case, if you take the MMO out of the picture you could still solely back this for the SuperDungeon and get some great value at the same time. Even though Emerald Spire is related to the MMO and will likely show up there it can be a great tabletop product and has some really great authors already. I would also guess it may get PFS approved since the Thornkeep book already has.
Think of it this way, all the MMO players that may never utilize the tabletop version of Emerald Spire are still helping us tabletop players get an awesome product as part of there support for the MMO. Why can't we support the tabletop aspect and get them some benefit for the MMO?
Being a tabletop player/DM, PFS player, plan to start DMing PFS this year, and a supporter of the MMO, I really think the MMO will end up being great for Paizo and bringing in new tabletop players which only helps the rest of us tabletop gamers.
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...if you take the MMO out of the picture you could still solely back this for the SuperDungeon and get some great value at the same time.
You can't take the MMO out of the picture because the whole point of the kickstarter is supposed to be the MMO (and the point isn't even to make the MMO, but to accelerate the schedule). If you did take the MMO out, you're left with a million dollar kickstarter for some PDFs and a project Paizo could pull off without kickstarter if they really wanted to.
-Skeld
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...if you take the MMO out of the picture you could still solely back this for the SuperDungeon and get some great value at the same time.You can't take the MMO out of the picture because the whole point of the kickstarter is supposed to be the MMO (and the point isn't even to make the MMO, but to accelerate the schedule). If you did take the MMO out, you're left with a million dollar kickstarter for some PDFs and a project Paizo could pull off without kickstarter if they really wanted to.
-Skeld
I like how you ignored the whole rest of the post. I should have phrased that part better to read:
...if you want to ignore the MMO you could still solely back this for the SuperDungeon and get some great value at the same time.
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I may be misinterpreting the 3PP responses, but it almost seems like a few of you wish that Paizo not make this Superdungeon 'because someone else has made one'.
It's great that there are 3pp out there that have made them. A lot of people would like to be able to include such a 'Megadungeon' that has also been made by Paizo.
If you have gotten the impression that these Pro-Kickstarter posts have been trying to imply '3pp are inferior, so pledge for this instead', then I'm sorry for that. I don't think anyone here meant to do that.I am surprised you seemed so turned off by the idea in your post, GeraintElberion. You seemed like you were interested at least at some point:
Or maybe your issue is with the Kickstarter's main goal instead?Is the new Kickstarter Superdungeon going to be available for general release like Thornkeep?
I really hope so.
Sometimes I have more free cash, sometimes I have less.
If Paizo makes something that is Golarion-lore and makes it only available for a short while then they are making it much harder for me to be a Golarion completist.
If they release the book after the KS then I can get it when funds allow.
I generally can't afford more than one splash-out on a kickstarter every three or four months and right now I am backing Razor Coast.
I don't like the idea of Golarion completists being placed under pressure to 'buy now or your collection will never be complete'. I am only slowly completing my collection of 3.5 Modules (6 to go) because I have a budget.
If Paizo stay true (as they have done) to the idea that you can save up to buy any piece of Golarion-lore that you want then they will get that money from me eventually.
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My only issue with raising funds for the MMO is if it takes Paizo's great writers away from writing for the product-lines to which I subscribe.
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As for the .pdfs: I keep track of the 3pp stuff and the only things in that pack which interest me and I don't already own are:
Cerulean Seas
Zobeck Gazetteer