Ok, we're starting a new table campaign, lev 1. The party is probabily composed of 4 players, maybe 5, I can't tell until I get response from a friend of mine. We've a straight rogue with play experience(almost surely a dervish dance build), a support cleric with a very low experience, nearly novice, and a wizard (probabily, anyway an arcane caster, if he don't change his mind) that's a totally noob. So, I'd liked to play a witch, but the lack of some melee pc really hurt in a party where the spellcasters are newbie or so. So I revert to magus (anyway a class that I like to try), and I think it's worth playing it without multiclass (I love this aspect of PF: you don't need the prcs or multiclass). But I'm stuck in the build setup: Magus, Kensai, Hexcrafter. The Kensai is more melee focused, but the trade I really shocking: no knowledge pool, no spell recall, no armor training. Just canny defense, which is a good way to lower the MAD of magus, but really, add to this the 1 spell slot les per level of spell and you can see how I fear for a good versatility (I sincerely doubt that the arcanist will do some battlefield controll, so I'd like to help him in that - as for nearly every newby that jump in an arcanist, with high chace he'll do the blaster). The straight magus seems ok to me, nothing to say... But I have the option to dip a witch with a monoclass magus using the hexcrafter. Awesome, but I get spell recall only late (and I don't know if I ever reach the 11th lev). So I need a serious help on evaluate. Maybe the kensai is a more efficient DD, but I can't see how the loss of really good abilities is balanced from what he gain. For the Hexcrafter... I don't know, is really that better?
And I have a question: I've read the Walter's guide and the Hexcrafter handbook linked in the Guide to the Guides, as well as a Kensai Handbook I found in the web. But, reading the Hexcrafter guide, it says that the HC doesn't get Improved Spell Recall, and instead of ISR get SR. But I've checked, the HC variant says just that the HC exchange SR for the Hex access. Nothing in the text of HC let me think that the Magus get SR instead of ISR at 11th lev. Do I miss something?
Anyway, thank to anyone could help me to choose the build.
|
If you plan on tanking with a magus Bladebound Kensai is the path to take. Invest the wealth you save not purchasing armor or weapons into defensive items.
See this thread for discussion on magus tanking.
Well I would suggest Hexcrafter, because you wanted to play a witch and magus is a compromise, so hexcrafter let's you grab a hex or two.
Otherwise sticking with a straight magus, because the magus has all really cool abilities.
Kensai IMO is for people who have already tried magus before and are looking for something different..
Also, magus is a good class, because in game you can 'consult' with the wizard as to what spells might be good for him to cast (due to his out of game lack of experience) if your character was a barbarian, then you wouldn't know a thing about spells. but your character and his character study many of the same spells; so in game communication about spells isn't far fetched.
I'd also choose the regular magus or hexcrafter over kensai because armored spell casting guy is cool. Kensai really is something completely different, that uses magus to get the build.
on ISR , I'm not sure, but I have seen some threads talking about this... does it become a dead level? There was some discussion that if you don't already have the regular version (because it was traded out with an archetype) then you get the regular version if the higher (improved) version comes up and isn't traded out.
IF I were you, discuss it with the GM.
I could see several options being reasonable here.
1) you get to choose a hex here.
2) you get to choose an arcana.
3) it's a dead level
4) you get regular spell recall.
AS your DM for a ruling before you jump in, as it can help you make a decision on archetype or no archetype.
If it were me? I'd let you pick one and go from there. (personally, another hex/arcana makes the most sense to me)
Nothing in the text of HC let me think that the Magus get SR instead of ISR at 11th lev.
Alternate Class Features: "If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a fighter's weapon training or a ranger's favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype. In effect, all abilities in that series are delayed until the next time the class improves that ability."
If Improved Spell Recall is not considered an improvement to a base ability, then you would be unable to use the first part of ISR since it functions when you recall a spell with spell recall.
I'm playing a hexcrafter in a kingmaker game and he is the party's frontliner. The key here is to understand that your spells are your armor. Go dex with dervish dance have a high dex and use defensive spells to protect yourself in addition to the armor and magic items you can muster. Specifically mirror image. Its really better then any AC item. I cant tell you how often its saved my bacon in kingmaker.
Wow. Nice&fast. Good guys ^_^
@Pendegast: for the hex magus ability, the text seems pretty clear: wen you get it, you gain immediately a hex.
@Grick: shame on me, I don't ever think to check the generale rules for archtypes. Good catch.
@LazarX, @Arthantos: maybe you're right, but it seems to me that a bladebound kensai is not anymore a magus. Seems more like an overpowered arcane fighter, and I like to play a magus...
@Kolokotroni: Hmmm. I was thinking of make a strenght build, not a dex one. I'm with you on the value of defensive spells, like mirror image and similar... I'd like to try a Str-based magus, honestly, I don't know if it's a good idea burn 2 feats to void the str dependency... I'm a bit confused....
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the hexes.... the level 11 thing?
That was a suggestion, not a rules interpretation, it might be a good place to put a hex or arcana access in lieu of ISR, depending on what your GM thought.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the hexes.... the level 11 thing?
No, now I cleared my mind about that. Now, I would like to know if the hexcraft thing worth pospone spell Recall at 11th.
@Kolokotroni: Hmmm. I was thinking of make a strenght build, not a dex one. I'm with you on the value of defensive spells, like mirror image and similar... I'd like to try a Str-based magus, honestly, I don't know if it's a good idea burn 2 feats to void the str dependency... I'm a bit confused....
You can play a strength based magus. My character is strength based it just means you are splitting your stats more, but how much of an issue that is depends on your stat generation method.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
it all comes down to style..
I'm running a Blade Bound/Kensai not because it's the most powerful (I think the Hexcrafter may be the most powerful)
Myrmidarch can be devastating as a Switch Hitter.
A Dervish Dancing Bladebound Magus can be excellent if you need a Defensive Warrior.
I would also suggest the Crane Style Feats.
This makes an Unarmed Fighter or Master Of Many Styles Monk dip excellent for easy access to Crane Style.
Hmmm, ok, guys: habemus scores. Rolled, not bad, neither super good. But above average, so I think I could run a good magus. Here the array: 17,16,15,13,13,8. The latter on Cha, obviously. Any advice to help a build?
@James: I'd think of the summoner, but now I'm in the magus... So i'd like tu run it.
@All: a little change: just one player is a totally newby. The wizard is an experienced player, for what the master said. So, hopefully I can run a hexcrafter Str based, what do you think?
So, I read all your post. Thanks, guys, the early answers are useful... now, let's think for the hexcrafter... Maybe it's not melee optimized, but the hex+arcana access seem really yummi to me :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here are the stats I would use:
STR: 17
DEX: 15
CON: 13
INT: 16
WIS: 13
CHA: 08
I might have missed it but what campaign are you running?
Of note, the Kensai dervish has a rough start at level one. It's my preferred archetype though, because I favor the agile warrior who's tough to hit, despite light or no armor.
I'd say Hexcrafter since you wanted to be a witch though, and to not have to fight over scimitar loot with the rogue if he's also a dervish.
|
|
Hmmm, ok, guys: habemus scores. Rolled, not bad, neither super good. But above average, so I think I could run a good magus. Here the array: 17,16,15,13,13,8. The latter on Cha, obviously. Any advice to help a build?
If going human dexterity based, consider starting at level 1 with:
str 8
dex 17
con 15
int 16
wis 13
cha 13
feats: weapon finesse, arcane strike
skills: intimidate 1(+5), knowledge; arcane 1(+7), knowledge; dungeoneering 1(+7), knowledge; local 1(+4), perception 1(+2), spellcraft 1(+7), stealth 1(+4).
traits: magical lineage (shocking grasp), reactionary
Weapons and bonus feats would be archetype dependent. You won't deal much damage until 3rd level when you pick up dervish dance. After that, life gets much easier.
@azaelas: no printed campaign, DM run his own campaign, I don't know exactly what type is, but it seems to flee from a roleplay centered party, so it seems something like 50-50 role&combat. Maybe more combat focused. But I have no other infos.
@artanthos: why 13 cha and 8 str?
@Petty Alchemy: suggestion for good weapons?
He was suggesting a DEX based build.
|
|
A pure dex build will use charisma far more often than str. Invest in intimidate and you can contribute in some social situations.
An alternate optimization path would be drop reactionary and take underlying principles. Become good at UMD. If you are less inclined towards optimization, you could even take well dressed instead of reactionary and become decent at diplomacy and intimidate.
He likely will suggest that you dip a level into crossblooded seeker sorcerer later on, and thinks you might as well get the minor casting out of it. I'm not sure if it's even worth that however, your call.
In most circumstances I'm actually very opposed to the level of min/maxing that has characters taking a bunch of 1 - 2 level dips. I tend not to say anything as each person should make their own decisions on the topic.
The characters I actually play are far less optimized than what I do post for builds. My PFS magus.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with the hexes.... the level 11 thing?
That was a suggestion, not a rules interpretation, it might be a good place to put a hex or arcana access in lieu of ISR, depending on what your GM thought.
Well....unless you are immediately fixed on hexes, or need hexes for the flavor of your build?
I'd say no. but I've seen people say hexes are better than any arcana... IT all depends....it's very objective.
We have a hexcrafter in our group. IS she going to miss spell recall? Not one bit.
She uses a whip, and will likely take prehensile hair, as I'm going to allow her to craft a whip from her own hair, so she can do cool whip things by controlling her hair whip.
With that being said, it's all part of the build/concept. Couldn't do it without a hex crafter magus.
Take other archetypes like Skirnir, It loses so much to use that shield, it's almost not worth taking the archetype.
I've also played a hex crafter bladebound magus, as I felt it was most like Elric of Melibone, he's my Lawful Evil Magus... he's great I love playing him, but he gives up a lot of things with those archetypes.
The healing hex is great, it's like free heals for the world, If I see someone on the side of the road and I want to heal him, I haven't lost an expendable, it's free.
If I want to stabilize/question a thug I just beat into submission, heal hex, again it's free.
Quite handy...of course semi limited when trying to heal yourself and your friends, then it's just supplemental. I've used it more than once to bring the healer back to consciousness to get back to the job of healing tho... so again REALLY handy.
My magus however does a lot of straight melee too. He has close range as an arcana, so he uses cantrips to spell combat/spellstrike, which effectively lets him just swing his sword twice, as the cantrip is no damage king.
IMO.... straight magus is the definite choice.... especially if you see spell recall being exceptionally tasty.
cha vs str: 13 str means you can take power attack - and 8 str - means you have to start counting the weight of your loot. Even small things can be surprisingly heavy when you have 8 str.
And if you don't know if you're gonna reach lvl 11 - I would go str based.
Dex based means the first 2 levels = no dam.
Str based - you have some Ac issues - cast shield when need and pick up wand wielder ASAP - buy a wand of shield - and you should be ok. (but not great until lvl 7)
@Artanthos: Ty, nice sample build :) I think I'll go str based, but never say never, anoter player is adding to the campaign... maybe if he goes heavy melee I could switch :)
IMO.... straight magus is the definite choice.... especially if you see spell recall being exceptionally tasty.
Hmmm. It's not that. It's that SR is something like a Mnemonic Enancher, you can cast, say, the classic shocking grasp using only 1 slot, recalling it over and over.
I honestly don't know. SR seems yummi, but the prensile hair (or mustaches - that's an hilarious image to me, really funny) seems a really good hex, like fly hex (just to say 1 hex fo 3 at-will or so spells... save up a lot of space...) I would simply create something that can stand in a battle (the dervish dance rogue could be a big help in melle, she rolled like 18-15-14-14-14-14 or something like that monstruosity, like her lowest modfier is anyway a +2. Got really lucky), and that add a witch flavour. The magus seems to inspire me so much, and the hex thing is something I like to try. I just fear that I cannot be efficient if I give up SR... But reading the tread, it seems that an hexcrafter could stand even with this.
@Matt2VK: I don't know. I suppose that's a normal megic campaign, at least for what the master said. So I think I could afford some rod-wand-other things.
well if hexes are fun, then go hexcrafter, like I said in our gaming experience we don't miss the spell recall. And from what Grick said, you get SR at 11th, so win win.
Spell recall is cool - but the magus don't really have that many Arcane points - assuming you'll want to enhance your weapon 3-4 times a day - and if you pick up arcane accuracy you'll have no problem spending your arcane points.
Pearls of power is your friend - lots of them...
I would recommend straight Hexcrafter and go for the Dapper Duelist Magus. If I was on my laptop I could link you to the build.
It basically is a Prehensile Hair(Mocked up as an old timey moustache) Hexcrafter that uses a Finesse Weapon and focuses on DEX with moderate STR. At least a 13 for Power Attack but if they can't get that they go for a Light Weapon and pick up Piranha Strike. Though that might not work for you based on your GM.
Ok, you owned me. I'm in in the hexcrafter. Now, the other question: race? I've basically those options:
- Elf: good stat bonus, but the -2 con hurt in melee. I could "backup" that with thoughness, but it's a locked 1st lev feat. On the other hand, I could get darkvision and arcane focus as racial substitution, and get nice bonus on spellcasting side. Nice 1/6 arcana favored class, wich means hexes and, at later levels, major and grand hexes.
-Human: flexible stat bonus, 2 feats, good favored option, +1 skill points. Seems to be a little powerless choice: even with the extra feat, the +1 skill points seems not so important, and after I get the feat, seems to be not so more left.
- Tiefling: good stat adjustement, even if it make me go cha to 6. Prensile tail and vestigial wings seems to be nice as racial substitution, that save the hair hex (even if I tend to take it anyway), and that boost on the fly checks. Also, nice favored class option.
-Half-elf: matbe suboptimal, but I'm allowed to alternate racial traits, so I che throw away multitalented for arcane training, adaptability for EWP on the bastard sword (or some other exotic or martial if you know better 1-handed weaps), and trade low-light for darkvision (but as per elves, I don't know, the light sensitivity seems concerning).
Unfortunately, there's no playable race with +2 Str and Int, so I need to adapt. Amongst the other races, it seems there's no other that could fit a magus likey the races up there. So, any suggestion?
EDIT:
Some other question:
-Spell Hex seems to require only the major hex access, so can it taken even at 1st level?
-If I can, there's a way to use a SLA with spell combat and/or spellstrike?
Might look into some of the Variant Tiefling Heritages. I vaguely Remember either them or Aasimar having one that has +2STR, +2INT.
The Elf Favored Class must be spent on an Arcana not a Hex even with a Hexcrafter. At least IIRC.
Might look into some of the Variant Tiefling Heritages. I vaguely Remember either them or Aasimar having one that has +2STR, +2INT.
I'll recheck it.
The Elf Favored Class must be spent on an Arcana not a Hex even with a Hexcrafter. At least IIRC.
Hmmm. The text for the hexcrafter says "A hexcrafter gains access to the following magus arcana, or may select any witch hex in place of a magus arcana."
Ro any effect, the favored bonus IS an arcana, so in theory I can choose an hex in place of it...
I just remember that there was a major discussion about it somewhere and a developer stated that a Favored Class bonus doesn't apply to anything from an archetype. But say a ninja of a Race where the Rogue Favored Class Bonus is a partial Rogue Talent can use the Ability for a Rogue Talent but can't take a Ninja Trick without taking the Rogue Talent(Ninja Trick) but still falls into the restrictions of the Ninja's Ninja Trick.
They had a large Spoiler'd post on it.
Personally I would allow it, as would most GMs I know. But apparently it isn't supposed to based on Dev. input.
Hmmm. Really strange position. It seems a tricky way to handle it. Anyway, I'll ask to my DM. Any advice on my other questions?
Falcata is said to be an excellent weapon for EWP.
I second Dual talent human, skinned as half true azlanti, FTW.
Other than that a half-drow build is fun too.
Prehensile Tail is excellent for Wands...
Dual Talent is good for a Stat Intensive build.
Normal Human is good for a Feat/Skill Point Starved Build.
Duel talent - you loose the +1 skill points - but since you put +2 in int you get the same amount of skills points (assuming you would have put standard bonus in dex or str) AND you gain +1 on all int based skills - worth it.
Samsarans - also worth consideration..
Their Mystic Past Life could be worth 5x magus arcanas (spellbending - assumming 18 int, but better since you could take the spells from an other list like the summoner)
Prehensile Tail is excellent for Wands...
I think to take prenshile hair anyway...
Dual Talent is good for a Stat Intensive build.
Normal Human is good for a Feat/Skill Point Starved Build.
Hmmm. Don't know, is that so good? Yeah, 2 stats wherever you want, but nothing left aside a favored class bonus. I Think I'll going with a str 17, dex 13, con 15, int 16, wis 11, cha 8 (that's the straight rolls, up here I'd mistaken and added a 13 instead of a 11) before racial modifiers. With a dual talent mybe I coul switch int-str, anyway I don't know if really dual talent worth considering, aside that, a human does'nt have much more (not to say that according to arg, you're giving up 8 rp to gain a 2 rp ability score adjustement - like not worth the trade :P)
Meh 2 floating +2s are more valuable for some builds. and if you look that 2RP is for it taken once look at the Cost for an Advanced Ability Score Trait like Advanced CON or Advanced WIS. Now Double that for having it be a Floating bonus.
Its value varies drastically depending on on class/build and point buy value or poor rolls if rolling stats.
Most of the time one of the advanced races (tiefling, catfolk ext.) are a better option but if they are a no go for some reason then its not a bad option. Though Magus is not one of the classes I would suggest it for. Still though even if you do there are worse choices one could make.
A Combat Magus who also wants Metamagic or EWP. Might be better off looking into say Adoptive Parentage or keeping the Bonus Feat.
Meh 2 floating +2s are more valuable for some builds. and if you look that 2RP is for it taken once look at the Cost for an Advanced Ability Score Trait like Advanced CON or Advanced WIS. Now Double that for having it be a Floating bonus.
Uhm, makes sense, I'd misread the Flexible basic score mods.
Anyway, I don't feel comfortable giving up a feat and a +1 sp per lev for just one more +2 in one stat. Seems to me a waste. I'm seriously thinking of make an elf, but that -2 con really made me concerned. Witha Con 13 at most, how long I could survive, if I do a str build?
13 CON is pretty good. A well built Rogue &/or Monk is capable of making do with that.
Especially if they aren't needed to be the main damage sponge. Just see about getting your group to focus on Hitting Hard & Fast and Never letting battles drag on.
Hmmmm. Which build is more efficient, in mid-long terms?
str 13-dex 18-con 13-int 19, or str 17-dex 15-con-13-int 18?
With the Str based I could take Arcane strike (pretty good, in the first levels, and still mantain his efficiency, as the arcane pool enanchement last 1 minute - still consume swift action, so in mid long terms may be less usable), and possibily even something more combat oriented(something like arcante strike + power attack+ spell combat+spell strike, after the arcane pool bost goig out with a pretty good dmg in early levs). On the other hand, the dex build still allow eventually the power attack, but in payback, it bound the 1st and 3rd lev feats, so delay the arcane strike progression. And until the 3rd lev, the scimitar going to have a bad to hit, cause you can't use dex mod to hit with weapon finesse. And there's almost no psace for an arcane strike feat. Bad to hit and damage at low levs...