asthyril |
5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required. |
I'm a bit confused as to how overrun works by it's wording.
Particularly this
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.
When you attempt to overrun a target, it can choose to avoid you, allowing you to pass through its square without requiring an attack. If your target does not avoid you, make a combat maneuver check as normal. If your maneuver is successful, you move through the target's space. If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has.
The confusion I have is the 'as part of a charge' sentence.
Let's say this line is my charge lane, with X being my character, Y being a goblin, and Z being the evil wizard i want to charge.X...Y...Z
So...
A) is it that I can charge Z, and if I successfully overrun Y i can continue my charge to Z and attack him?
Or...
B) is it that since the overrun on X was considered my standard action, and Y is in my way for a charge, all i am allowed to do if I want to get next to Z is perform a move(or double move) action, successfully overrun Y and end my turn standing adjacent to Z?
ALSO
This feat has a lot of prerequisites. But how exactly does this feat differ from just charging an opponent? it completely takes the benefits away of your successful overrun, and just allows you to make an attack as a swift action. So in place of your overrun attempt with a charge or standard action as part of a move, it just lets you make an attack? and just with an unarmed strike or natural weapon?
How is that any different from just charging, or moving up to attack? What am I missing?
Pendagast |
Well I thought stomp was something that doesn't REQUIRE moving thru, so you can just stand there and stomp lil uns. So maybe the benefit is full attack, plus a swift stomp?
The way I read it is, in addition to, not instead of... the instead part is instead of continuing past the opponent.
So you can normal overrun if you want to keep moving, or take the stomp action which also leaves you right there.
Could be a draw back depending on the situation, but with overrun you have to come back and finish killing him. With stomp, you're right there, next turn just full attack...
It looks like a choice, at least to me.
asthyril |
Well I thought stomp was something that doesn't REQUIRE moving thru, so you can just stand there and stomp lil uns. So maybe the benefit is full attack, plus a swift stomp?
The way I read it is, in addition to, not instead of... the instead part is instead of continuing past the opponent.
So you can normal overrun if you want to keep moving, or take the stomp action which also leaves you right there.
Could be a draw back depending on the situation, but with overrun you have to come back and finish killing him. With stomp, you're right there, next turn just full attack...
It looks like a choice, at least to me.
but i still don't understand how that differs from what you can do by the normal rules, with no feats at all. having to stop instead of continuing overrun, getting no benefits from overrun, then having to attack as your swift action and only with a natural attack/unarmed strike, how is that just worse in every way that simply walking up to them and hitting them with a sword?
Brigma |
I would think that the Elephant Stomp is more a feat for creatures, say Huge/Large Eidolons that can do ridiculous damage with natural attacks.
But to your first question, that's what the 'Charge Through' Feat is for, to overrun the goblin and then attack the wizard.
But I'm still not sure if you could use the overrun and attack on the same target (I posted a similar question 2 days ago.... I don't think anyone has a solid handle on mounted combat ;) But that's what FAQ's are for!
cwslyclgh |
This gives an elephant the ability to move and make two attacks... Sounds pretty scary to me.
Not only that, but if the elephant successfully uses overrun and succeeds by 5 or more (needed to activate the feat) doesn't that knock the opponent prone? meaning that the stomp would come against a prone opponent (-4 to its AC), and that opponent would provoke an AoO when it got back to its feet... sounds pretty bad ass for an elephant to me.
never mind... it doesn't seem to knock him prone... and since overrun normally doesn't allow you to get a damaging attack in... I am not sure I see the purpose of this feat anymore... it appears to allow you to declare an overrun and then change your mind and attack instead... as written it doesn't even work with the trample ability that elephants have (because that doesn't require a CMB roll).
asthyril |
Nefreet wrote:This gives an elephant the ability to move and make two attacks... Sounds pretty scary to me.Not only that, but if the elephant successfully uses overrun and succeeds by 5 or more (needed to activate the feat) doesn't that knock the opponent prone? meaning that the stomp would come against a prone opponent (-4 to its AC), and that opponent would provoke an AoO when it got back to its feet... sounds pretty bad ass for an elephant to me.
please read the feat, if you use it you do not get to knock them prone and you must stop adjacent to them. it does nothing but give a swift action attack, which you might as well just have attacked them normally instead of using the modified overrun.
Nebelwerfer41 |
Nefreet wrote:This gives an elephant the ability to move and make two attacks... Sounds pretty scary to me.how does it make 2 attacks? the overrun attempt itself is a standard action that does no damage. it just turns that into a swift action attack. that's the only attack you get.
I just did some digging and I think I found the issue. See the overrun action for more detail:
Emphasis mine
So, as part of a charge, you can make an overrun check and if you succeed by 5 or more, you can make an attack in addition to the charge attack.
asthyril |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've read the feat, thank you very much. I've used it for years. You charge your opponent. As part of your charge, you try to overrun them. Now you get an extra attack. Sounds like a pretty cool thing to me.
let me quote it for you, since you do not wish to read the feat description i posted above.
When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone
ok, at this point you have successfully made an overrun check and exceeded your opponents CMD by 5, and gotten absolutely none of the benefits of doing so, but still used your standard action per the overrun rules, whether you charged or moved.
you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space)
so now your successful overrun attempt has just turned into a normal move action, which anyone could do. and it used your standard action too.
and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action.
so now, after wasting a standard action to overrun and gain no benefits, to simulate what any normal character can do in a move action, now you are stuck with using your swift action to make a very specific(unarmed or natural weapon) attack, ending your turn.
So a normal character with no feat at all could have moved up and hit it with a sword.
so, as i said, please read the feat. especially if you have been using it for years.
We are discussing RAW, not what you think it should do. and RAW it does not work as you think it does.
hogarth |
Here's a couple of older threads on the subject:
Can somone explain to me why charge through is needed?
The jury's still out, I guess!
Cainus |
2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
According to Rob McCreary (the writer of the feat) Elephant Stomp does knock the opponent down:
"You make an overrun attack as normal. The feat does nothing unless your combat maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more. At that point, the opponent is knocked prone as normal, but you stop (rather than moving through the opponent's space) and can make an immediate unarmed or natural weapon attack against the prone opponent.
Without the feat, the opponent is knocked prone, you move through his space, and you don't get an immediate attack. Likewise, simply moving up and attacking the opponent doesn't knock them prone."
The feat implies that the target is knocked over through the use of the "and" as in "moving through your opponent's space AND knocking her prone". As written the feat doesn't specifically say you don't knock prone, you just don't move through and knock prone. You still exceeded by 5 so you still knock prone, except now you stop and knock prone, then take a free attack.
So the feat should read something like "When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space), [b]knock them prone[b], and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action."
Actually, Elephant Stomp, combined with Vicious Stomp means two attacks for one one overrun.
I'll look at the charging part later.
asthyril |
The feat implies that the target is knocked over through the use of the "and" as in "moving through your opponent's space AND knocking her prone". As written the feat doesn't specifically say you don't knock prone, you just don't move through and knock prone. You still exceeded by 5 so you still knock prone, except now you stop and knock prone, then take a free attack.
first, thank you for helping with the clarification.
but to me, the sentence "When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may..."
especially the parts i bolded, is saying that you neither move through their space nor do you knock them prone. the word 'and' implies both of those thing between the commas, do not happen. am i the only person who reads it this way?
Cainus |
Cainus wrote:The feat implies that the target is knocked over through the use of the "and" as in "moving through your opponent's space AND knocking her prone". As written the feat doesn't specifically say you don't knock prone, you just don't move through and knock prone. You still exceeded by 5 so you still knock prone, except now you stop and knock prone, then take a free attack.first, thank you for helping with the clarification.
but to me, the sentence "When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone, you may..."
especially the parts i bolded, is saying that you neither move through their space nor do you knock them prone. the word 'and' implies both of those thing between the commas, do not happen. am i the only person who reads it this way?
Actually I think just about everyone read it that way, which was the source of the problem.
Another way to read it wasn't to say that you neither move through their space (one thing) nor do you knock them prone (another thing), it was to say you don't move through their space and knock them prone (one thing). Because that doesn't mean they aren't knocked prone, you just don't move through their space and knock them prone.
It was not the most precise language. Heck even just adding "then" wou;d've helped, as in "When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space and then knocking her prone, you may..."
As an aside (as I think about it), Elephant Stomp, combined with Vicious Stomp AND Greater Overrun (and I suppose Combat Reflexes) would give you THREE attacks for every successful overrun.
Matthew Hancock |
Cainus wrote::::thinks up an overruning monk build to throw at the players next game:::
As an aside (as I think about it), Elephant Stomp, combined with Vicious Stomp AND Greater Overrun (and I suppose Combat Reflexes) would give you THREE attacks for every successful overrun.
Try a Barbarian using the Overbearing Advance rage power:
Overbearing Advance - While raging, the barbarian inflicts damage equal to her Strength bonus whenever she succeeds at an overrun combat maneuver.
Though a monk would probably have the feat support to do it at a lower level.
Trinite |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Elephant Stomp is *supposed* to work the way Rob McCreary explains it, but the problem is that the phrasing makes it work the useless way, like asthyril says.
Little grammar lesson:
In that sentence, "instead of moving through your opponent's space and knocking her prone" is a single prepositional phrase. That's why it's enclosed in commas to set it off from the rest of the sentence. The preposition "instead" has two objects: "Moving through your opponent's space" and "knocking her prone". The "instead" applies to both these objects. This means that, as written, a user of the feat neither moves through their opponent's space nor knocks her prone.
Here's how the feat could be rewritten so that it would fulfill Rob's intent:
When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, instead of moving through your opponent's space, you may stop in the space directly in front of the opponent (or the nearest adjacent space) and make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action. Your opponent is still knocked prone by the overrun maneuver as normal before this attack is made.
MarkusTay |
And here I thought an 'elephant stomp' would only be used by elephants and other very large creatures. Silly me - the next time 5' tall ninja tries to overrun my fat, 300-lb arse and stomp all over me, I'll have to remember to be scared.
Rule 1: Use common sense. If the Raw doesn't make sense, then ignore it for something that does.
Roberta Yang |
And here I thought an 'elephant stomp' would only be used by elephants and other very large creatures. Silly me - the next time 5' tall ninja tries to overrun my fat, 300-lb arse and stomp all over me, I'll have to remember to be scared.
Rule 1: Use common sense. If the Raw doesn't make sense, then ignore it for something that does.
Yeah, I agree, the real problem with Elephant Stomp is that it is too useful. It needs additional restrictions.
Vestrial |
Yeah, I agree, the real problem with Elephant Stomp is that it is too useful. It needs additional restrictions.
Huh? How do you figure it's too useful? It's a feat to occasionally earn a free attack for the guy with the feat alone. Greater overrun or trip gets an aoo for everyone threatening the target.
cwslyclgh |
I think you are confused about the literal definition of stomp... stomping has nothing do with mass. I can certainly stomp on another person, although generally have to be on the ground if I want to stomp anything but their foot.
There are no feats that I can think of that give a PC the swallow whole ability, so it is a moot point.
Trinite |
i am honestly confused about so many aspects of over-run...
Overrun seems pretty simple to me. It's a Combat Maneuver, which you attempt during the course of your movement, and which uses up a standard action. If you succeed on your roll, you move through your opponent's square (so that you can continue moving to your desired destination). If you succeed by 5 or more, your opponent is also knocked prone. If you fail, you stop moving right in front of your opponent's square.
The reason why elephant stomp sucks as-written is that all it lets you do is attack instead of getting any of the effects of the overrun. And you could have just moved and attacked anyway, instead of even trying for the overrun in the first place.
hogarth |
Quandary wrote:i am honestly confused about so many aspects of over-run...Overrun seems pretty simple to me. It's a Combat Maneuver, which you attempt during the course of your movement, and which uses up a standard action. If you succeed on your roll, you move through your opponent's square (so that you can continue moving to your desired destination). If you succeed by 5 or more, your opponent is also knocked prone. If you fail, you stop moving right in front of your opponent's square.
The bit that's ambiguous is how a charging overrun works. Do you get to do a overrun in the middle of your movement plus a regular charge attack at the end of your movement, or do you just get the overrun and no regular attack?
Starbuck_II |
Quandary wrote:i am honestly confused about so many aspects of over-run...Overrun seems pretty simple to me. It's a Combat Maneuver, which you attempt during the course of your movement, and which uses up a standard action. If you succeed on your roll, you move through your opponent's square (so that you can continue moving to your desired destination). If you succeed by 5 or more, your opponent is also knocked prone. If you fail, you stop moving right in front of your opponent's square.
The reason why elephant stomp sucks as-written is that all it lets you do is attack instead of getting any of the effects of the overrun. And you could have just moved and attacked anyway, instead of even trying for the overrun in the first place.
Why not rewrote Elephant Stomp so you get you get to overrun gives you a free strike (a stomp as you will) while you are overrunning.
No you "stop moving" needed.
Like so:
"When you overrun an opponent and your maneuver check exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, make one attack with an unarmed strike or a natural weapon against that opponent as an immediate action."
So you still overrun them, but you also get an attack. Really, just cut some words out and the feat is better.
asthyril |
Trinite wrote:The bit that's ambiguous is how a charging overrun works. Do you get to do a overrun in the middle of your movement plus a regular charge attack at the end of your movement, or do you just get the overrun and no regular attack?Quandary wrote:i am honestly confused about so many aspects of over-run...Overrun seems pretty simple to me. It's a Combat Maneuver, which you attempt during the course of your movement, and which uses up a standard action. If you succeed on your roll, you move through your opponent's square (so that you can continue moving to your desired destination). If you succeed by 5 or more, your opponent is also knocked prone. If you fail, you stop moving right in front of your opponent's square.
yes this is what confused me at first, but errant mercenary mentioned the charge through feat (which i was unaware of) at least clarified that but for me. if there's a feat that does it obviously you cannot do it without the feat.
@Starbuck II - this is for a PFS character you cannot change RAW.
meabolex |
1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Unless I'm missing something, this ability is completely broken in PF. In 3.5, you simply couldn't overrun via a charge, so this was a non-issue. Some brokenness about this ability:
1. Charge states that you must move to the closest space from which you can attack an enemy.
2. If you overrun an enemy, you move through the enemy's space.
3. To move through an enemy space, you need to be adjacent to an enemy in order to enter their square.
4. That adjacent square is closer to the square where you began your charge than the enemy's space square.
5. You can't move beyond the adjacent square because charge said you must move to that adjacent square (the closest space from which you can attack the enemy).
So, either charge is wrong (unlikely, copied pretty much verbatim from 3.5) or overrun is wrong (likely, because it's a PF specific change from 3.5). You can't follow both rules without violating one of them. Also, there's no mention of applying a +2 bonus to CMB checks for overrun. There is one for bull rush.
Just sounds broken |:
Edit: read some of the above links, apparently it is broken and they're going to errata it at some point. That sucks.
Trinite |
Unless I'm missing something, this ability is completely broken in PF. In 3.5, you simply couldn't overrun via a charge, so this was a non-issue. Some brokenness about this ability:
1. Charge states that you must move to the closest space from which you can attack an enemy.
2. If you overrun an enemy, you move through the enemy's space.
3. To move through an enemy space, you need to be adjacent to an enemy in order to enter their square.
4. That adjacent square is closer to the square where you began your charge than the enemy's space square.
5. You can't move beyond the adjacent square because charge said you must move to that adjacent square (the closest space from which you can attack the enemy).
So, either charge is wrong (unlikely, copied pretty much verbatim from 3.5) or overrun is wrong (likely, because it's a PF specific change from 3.5). You can't follow both rules without violating one of them. Also, there's no mention of applying a +2 bonus to CMB checks for overrun. There is one for bull rush.
Just sounds broken |:
Edit: read some of the above links, apparently it is broken and they're going to errata it at some point. That sucks.
Oh, I see what you mean now. I assumed that by "target" they meant whoever was at the endpoint of your charge, but I see now that there's a contradiction in the movement wording. Yeah, they should fix that.
Syralus |
meabolex wrote:Oh, I see what you mean now. I assumed that by "target" they meant whoever was at the endpoint of your charge, but I see now that there's a contradiction in the movement wording. Yeah, they should fix that.Unless I'm missing something, this ability is completely broken in PF. In 3.5, you simply couldn't overrun via a charge, so this was a non-issue. Some brokenness about this ability:
1. Charge states that you must move to the closest space from which you can attack an enemy.
2. If you overrun an enemy, you move through the enemy's space.
3. To move through an enemy space, you need to be adjacent to an enemy in order to enter their square.
4. That adjacent square is closer to the square where you began your charge than the enemy's space square.
5. You can't move beyond the adjacent square because charge said you must move to that adjacent square (the closest space from which you can attack the enemy).
So, either charge is wrong (unlikely, copied pretty much verbatim from 3.5) or overrun is wrong (likely, because it's a PF specific change from 3.5). You can't follow both rules without violating one of them. Also, there's no mention of applying a +2 bonus to CMB checks for overrun. There is one for bull rush.
Just sounds broken |:
Edit: read some of the above links, apparently it is broken and they're going to errata it at some point. That sucks.
I read this pretty clear.
Charge Through allows you make an Overrun as a free action as you charge. Charge.... Overrun.... Charge. Pretty simple.
If you read both feats, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to overrun a foe. This +2 adds into your CMB to beat your targets CMD per....
Performing a Combat Maneuver: (Second Paragraph)
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
So it goes as follows...
1. Declare your charge target (X will be the example target)
2. Declare your going to make an Overrun attempt vs a creature between you and your target (T will be used in the example)
3. Roll your Overrun, adding your +2 bonus for CMB
4. A. If you succeed, you continue your charge through to the original target.
B. If you fail, your stopped dead in your tracks on the initiating side of the charge.
YOU ...... T....... X (Step 1)
YOU T ...... X (Step 2 and 3)
T...... YOU X (Step 4A)
YOU T ...... X (Step 4B)
It's still a Charge, meaning you treat it as a normal Charge BUT you make an Overrun action for free as your conducting the Charge.
The only thing I find that isn't clear concerns the Attack of Opportunity if you beat the Overrun targets CMD by 5, thus causing them to be knocked down. Nothing I have read is clear about who gets that AoO. Is it an AoO for the rest of your party or is it an AoO for you right then and there?
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Purple your link: Good Dev/Writer comment
Exactly my understanding of how it works, but doesn't fix the problem until they work out how you Overrun on a Charge.
K177Y C47 |
Hm... so based on DEV input...
A Human Monk of the Seven Forms with Dodge/Mobility, Power Attack, Impoved/Greater Over-run, Elephant Stomp, Combat Reflexes, and Vicious Stomp could get funny... Pretty much zip aroudn the battlefield barreling things over and getting attacks all over them... Especially nice since your running aroudn everywhere lets you easily maintain your dance of a thousand Cuts...
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Pupsocket |
According to Rob McCreary (the writer of the feat) Elephant Stomp does knock the opponent down:
The feat implies that the target is knocked over through the use of the "and" as in "moving through your opponent's space AND knocking her prone". As written the feat doesn't specifically say you don't knock prone, you just don't move through and knock prone. You still exceeded by 5 so you still knock prone, except now you stop and knock prone, then take a free attack.
Thank you for the clarification, Cainus. And f~@% you, Rob, that is terrible f#@$ing writing. Partial credit for at least clarifying your mess.