Goblin Squad Member
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Another mechanic we might wish to consider is hungr and thirst. Most MMOs implement only certain minor buffs that stay briefly with the character after eating and drinking, and soe will even make the character as if inebriated if he drinks too much wine or ale.
However in an old fashioned MUD food and drink was rather more vital and it did encourage role play. The character might take a constitution or stamina hit, reducing his ability to do things. Eating would restore what was lost over time.
Do we want this sort of mechanic? After all foodcrafting can be integral and important for some.
What would you like to see, and how should it work?
Food should play important role in functioning of settlements and sieges but as mentioned by others it would probably make the playing MMO tedious.
Still managing food and drink was interesting challenge in many classical cRPGs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think a minor debuff if you are hungry or thirsty, nothing crippling but something people don't want to deal with, and a buff that can get quite large for using high quality foods and drink would be the way to go.
The debuff keeps food and drink important enough that it is an essential part of the games economy. The buff keeps the whole thing palatable enough for people to not hate it and higher quality consumables makes chef rewarding and competitive market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see food have buffs for PCs as well. In the pevious food thread linked above by Dakcenturi, Nihimon and GrumpyMel came up with something that seems pretty solid without being too much of a burden.
I think the beauty of GrumpyMel's idea about getting one kind of buff from Inns and another from Rations is that it's really simple and doesn't require the developers to spend a lot of effort tracking timers on individual in-game objects.
The way I'd like to see it is:
•Inns - 100% strength, 4 hours.
•Camps - 80% strength, 2 hours.
•Rations - 60% strength, 1 hour.
Or something like that...
I would also like to see a mechanic for feeding the troops in warfare as well as a base amount needed to be gathered to keep any settlement running at peak efficiency. With crafting and such being run by NCP characters and our PCs doing the supervision, in any player run settlement there will be quite a few peasants and they are going to need a food supply. This would add a nice dynamic with the siege warfare as players would have to decide whether to burn their own farms to keep the invading army from using them or to defend the farms and keep a supply line to the settlement. This would open up room for players to smuggle in more food to keep their city running during a long term siege.
During peaceful times a settlement could make a profit from collecting food from farms and taxing the peasants on its sale. Store houses could stock up food and other supplies and if a settlement has a surplus and an ally is under long term attack could attempt to break a few supply wagons through the enemy lines.
I don’t know about anyone else but I think there is a lot of potential in a system like this, in war time it would add additional strategy and in peace times it would be nice for a player settlement to have a steady income that could be used for upkeep.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am generally against food and water debuff mechanics but I wouldn't mind making an exception for certain "areas". Deep desert exploration (water), arctic exploration (food) or deep subetrranean (both) could come with the added difficulty of food/water debuff mechanics.
The food buff mechanic which most MMO's use and I assume this one will also, kind of assumes that you will be eating in order to stay at your top performance and that's as far as you need to go in most cases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I highly prefer hunger/thirst mechanics to food-buff mechanics in that hunger and thirst mechanics generally require you to eat a large amount of food on an in-frequent basis, where food buff mechanics generally require a small amount of food every 5-30 minutes and are MORE of a chore than a hunger/thirst system. Even going so far as to having you refreshing food-buffs mid combat. (What?!?!?!?! Eating a meal in the middle of a fight?!)
If either system were set up as something you only have to worry about every 1-3 hours I would be fine with either. I want a system that encourages you to make camp and cook some food, or stop in the inn for rest in a real bed an an even better meal. But it shouldn't be a constant chore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(What?!?!?!?! Eating a meal in the middle of a fight?!)As a follower of Cayden Cailean, getting liquored up mid battle is not only encouraged, it's expected. =P
I can go with a chug of ale from a hip flask. But fried lobster? A rack of lamb with mint sauce? Fish stew? It's a battlefield not the Golden Corral.
I would rather see a debuff from not eating than a buff from eating, as much as they equate to a similar state in the end. More elaborate dishes could then give buffs as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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forcing someone to eat/drink or get a debuff just plain does not add a single thing to the game. its a time waste just to waste time. If you add a hunger system you might as well add more ala sims, since hunger/thirst adds the same amount of game play as having your toon find an outhouse every couple of hours.
Time sinks need to be meaningful. So if you set-up a camp and cook some food then that should result in a benefit, a slight buff to stats or perhaps something like slightly faster run speed.
at no point should hunger/thirst be used as a negative in any sort of way.
So something like this could be done. Food could come in different forms.
1) travel rations - these foods are quick to eat and last forever. They provide a small buff. Making travel rations is quick and doesnt take many resources.
2) Camp food - Some foods can be made at a camp that you prepare in the wilderness. These foods dont last long. Setting up a camp takes a bit of time (and requires the proper tools). food made in camps provide better buffs than travel rations and can be provided to x amount of people depending on skill. These foods can provide a wide array of buffs dependent on what you make.
3) inn/tavern food - these foods are bought/eaten at an inn or tavern. They provide a bonus similar to camp food, however each inn/tavern only provides specific buffs, meaning there is not much selection at each location. The up side is that you can get decent buffs with paying some gold and not waiting to set up a camp.
4) high end restaurant foods - these foods are limited like the inn/tavern food. They cost a lot of gold, but they provide the best buffs and require no time to set up.
5) home cooked food - this food is home cooked. it requires that the person have a permanent facility to cook food in. preparing the food takes a while. Any type of food can be home cooked. Home cooked food does not last long, however they provide the best buffs and any food buff can be created at such a place.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would rather see a debuff from not eating than a buff from eating, as much as they equate to a similar state in the end. More elaborate dishes could then give buffs as well.
I agree with this. The ideal state should be not-hungry and not-thirsty, the state everybody starts in. I would rather see that than everyone having different buffs based on the food they eat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A food & drink buff is functionaly identical to a food & drink debuff... but psychologicaly most MMO players will accept the former while complain about the latter. I don't know why, it's just a quirk of human psychology.
So I'd much rather go with a system that frames things in terms that people are generaly willing to accept then pick a fight for nothing that will make a functional difference.
Andius, whether it's a "buff" or "debuff" doesn't need to dictate the frequency or the amount consumed. Those are details of implimentation which are pretty agnostic as to how it's framed/presented. Unless we get to a point where we weaken a character who doesn't eat/drink/rest until they actualy cant function at all and eventualy expire... realistic and potentialy interesting game play, but probably a non-starter for most MMO gamers even those interested in PFO.... the differences between buff and debuff are pretty much semantics and psychology.
The way I'd go is to impliment the Food/Drink/Rest "buff" is as temporary hit points. You have a gradation in quality from lowest to highest as a non-stacking buff.
So eating/resting at an Inn gets you the highest level Buff (most hit points)
Eating/resting at a prepared camp site gets you the medium level
Wolfing down hard-tack while out on the trail gets you the least
Probably let it last 1 in game "day", which you can renew at any time and you get the highest level that you've done (Inn, Camp, Hard Rations).
I assume Food and Entertainment are going to play a major role on the unseen npc population of settlements as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A food & drink buff is functionaly identical to a food & drink debuff... but psychologicaly most MMO players will accept the former while complain about the latter. I don't know why, it's just a quirk of human psychology.
So I'd much rather go with a system that frames things in terms that people are generaly willing to accept then pick a fight for nothing that will make a functional difference.
That's about what I was thinking. I guess you could make an argument for debuffs if it were a progressive debuff, as in the longer you go without food, the worse it gets, but I'm really against that idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, whether it's a "buff" or "debuff" doesn't need to dictate the frequency or the amount consumed.
Well that is why I went on to say:
If either system were set up as something you only have to worry about every 1-3 hours I would be fine with either.
I do realize they are separate mechanics. I'm just stating why I generally prefer game's that use hunger/thirst system's over buffs. I realize you can adapt the buff system to meet the criteria that make me enjoy the hunger/thirst system... which was really the point of the post.
Guiding the discussion away from hunger/thirst vs. food buffs to a discussion on how to make either system less tedious.
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Goblin Squad Member
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debuff and buff are not the same thing. it is only the same thing if the debuff or buff is static.
Having a debuff system thats always say -1 to stats, then you eat and you get your full stats, limits the benefit to +1 to stats.
If you have a buff system just set everyones stat to the -1 threshold that you want people to be at. A buff is able to provide (in this case through different food) specific bonuses. So eating food might give you +1 resistance, or +5 foot movement, or +1 all stats, or +2 to one stat..etc.
A eat food and provide a buff allows for greater options than you starve and get a debuff. In the debuff option all you are doing is forcing characters to stave off a permanent negative condition. In the buff options you allow the players to select buffs tailored to what they want, and if they dont eat, then they dont lose anything.
anyway to get back on topic. hunger/thirst is adding a permenant negative condition that serves as a time sink/waste of time without adding anything to the game. If you add in hunger/thirst you might as well consider adding bathroom breaks and doing dishes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If they made it so you had a single "ration" type item to cover both hunger and thirst, I'd prefer it. That way I can just have one stack of rations in my pack that last for an hour or two hours or what have you (based on the quality of the ration).
BTW, Andius, I sent you a PM on the TEO boards if you haven't seen it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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debuff and buff are not the same thing. it is only the same thing if the debuff or buff is static.
Having a debuff system thats always say -1 to stats, then you eat and you get your full stats, limits the benefit to +1 to stats.
If you have a buff system just set everyones stat to the -1 threshold that you want people to be at. A buff is able to provide (in this case through different food) specific bonuses. So eating food might give you +1 resistance, or +5 foot movement, or +1 all stats, or +2 to one stat..etc.
A eat food and provide a buff allows for greater options than you starve and get a debuff. In the debuff option all you are doing is forcing characters to stave off a permanent negative condition. In the buff options you allow the players to select buffs tailored to what they want, and if they dont eat, then they dont lose anything.
I think you made a lot of really good points up to the bolded part.
If you don't eat in a hunger system you get a debuff making you effectively weaker than everyone who eats. If you don't eat in a buff system you lose out on buff making you effectively weaker than everyone who eats.
The effect is much the same either way. I think your point about choosing what you gain for eating is strong though that would also be possible in a hybrid of the two systems. But the "you don't lose anything for not eating" is a weak point. If you are 5% weaker than everyone eating you are 5% weaker than everyone eating. It doesn't matter if they are buffed, or you are debuffed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the difference is that in a eat and buff system the buffs are focused. so while one aspect can be improved, it does not end up with a flat reduction in ability if you dont eat.
Lets take a look at a couple of fighters and a food buff. lets say the food buff provides +2 to a single stat ending up improving the bonus by +1. now in an mmo there isnt quite the clear cut answer as there is in the table top.
fighter 1 picks +2 str
Figheter 2 pick +2 dex from some AC
fighter 3 picks +2 wis for some extra will save
Fighter 4 doesnt have food so doesnt eat.
At a result of this while is is "weaker" than the others he is not much so. He hits and does damage the same as the other two fighters, his ac is the same as two of the fighers, and his save is the same as two of the fighters.
Anyway i dont like hunger/thirst mechanics, you might as well say that the air of the lands is poisoned and force everyone to get a delay poison potion every couple of hours. The big question for a hunger/thirst mechanic is what does it add to the game other than irritate people? What would the game and the community as a whole gain by having this feature in. And for me the answer is nothing. hunger/thirst has a place in survival or realistic games, but i dont think it has one in PfO/
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Goblin Squad Member
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You can easily combine the two. If you want to require eating to not get a penalty, you can have basic rations that simply remove the penalty. Then you can have enhanced treats that add a buff on top.
Edit to clarify: These enhanced treats would both remove the penalty and give a buff. No need to weigh down your pack even more by having a lot of different types of rations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big question for a hunger/thirst mechanic is what does it add to the game other than irritate people?
It can potentially add a lot to the game. It creates a need for all kinds of food/drink preparation skills and/or crafts. Cooking, foraging, fishing, hunting, brewing, poison, alchemy, etc. A lot of these skills open up a great number of options for role-playing and add another tool for meaningful player interaction outside of combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the difference is that in a eat and buff system the buffs are focused. so while one aspect can be improved, it does not end up with a flat reduction in ability if you dont eat.
Lets take a look at a couple of fighters and a food buff. lets say the food buff provides +2 to a single stat ending up improving the bonus by +1. now in an mmo there isnt quite the clear cut answer as there is in the table top.
fighter 1 picks +2 str
Figheter 2 pick +2 dex from some AC
fighter 3 picks +2 wis for some extra will save
Fighter 4 doesnt have food so doesnt eat.At a result of this while is is "weaker" than the others he is not much so. He hits and does damage the same as the other two fighters, his ac is the same as two of the fighers, and his save is the same as two of the fighters.
Anyway i dont like hunger/thirst mechanics, you might as well say that the air of the lands is poisoned and force everyone to get a delay poison potion every couple of hours. The big question for a hunger/thirst mechanic is what does it add to the game other than irritate people? What would the game and the community as a whole gain by having this feature in. And for me the answer is nothing. hunger/thirst has a place in survival or realistic games, but i dont think it has one in PfO/
If you are saying the fighter can ONLY have 1 Food category buff going at the same time then that would be correct...although that would be functionaly correct to letting the individual choose what negative debuff he/she suffered from hunger/thirst. End result is that something which is READLY available, within the characters ability to control and becomes the expected NORMAL for characters to have, it doesn't matter much whether it's derived from avoiding a penalty or adding a bonus... expected to have is expected to have.
In terms of gameplay, it adds a few interesting things...
- It helps play into the whole economics cycle that GW described elsewhere where Adventurering Characters are purchasing goods and services from non-adventuring characters and in-turn sell thier own goods and services to those characters.
- Like it or not, a bit of enforced down-time (Inns, Camps) DOES provide a stimulus for social interaction between players. People DO talk while waiting for buses, trains, planes, etc. Whereas when everything is GO-GO-GO most people wont interact because they somehow feel that they are missing out. It creates a vastly different game atmosphere.
- It has a game-play effect in terms of inventory management. Inventory items have weight, characters have encumberance. Just like planning what carrying capacity to devote to scrolls or potions, planning what capacity to devote to rations has a strategic game-play value. Planning out a long expedition into the wilderness or a long millitary campaign with large numbers of forces starts making logistics and interdiction more significant considerations.
- In the strategic game, the placement and protection of Inns and other outposts starts becoming and interesting strategic gameplay decision, along with maintenance of relations of the controling factions of such.
- It also adds some interesting non-combat character development choices into the mix. Does a ranger now think about getting skills that allow them to setup campsites and secure food in the wild as a valuable addition to bring to the party over learning an extra +1 to hit? Does "Create Food and Drink?" become a worthwhile spell for SpellCasters to pursue, etc?
Even though it's a bit of annoyance factor, certainly...it starts to add alot of interesting game-play dimensions....in the same manner that say, limited ammo might add for a FPS game...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pretty much what Tyviel said. It's an economic thing. It supports crafting professions that rely on consumables.
Most food systems give short duration buffs which I find highly irritating. I hate the food systems in WoW, LotRO, and Darkfall.
I am fine with any system that allows me to eat large meals at infrequent intervals and eating smaller portions can cap off my hunger bar or buff duration. So I enjoyed the hunger systems of Xsyon, Wurm, and Mortal.
Buff, de-buff, or hybrid, large intervals and creating an economic need for consumables is the key to winning my support.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about you don't need to eat unless you're away from your settlement for a significant amount of time, or if your settlement is under siege and has had its food supply cut off or stolen? So it's assumed your character eats, but it's not an issue worth mentioning unless the plot makes it one?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about you don't need to eat unless you're away from your settlement for a significant amount of time, or if your settlement is under siege and has had its food supply cut off or stolen? So it's assumed your character eats, but it's not an issue worth mentioning unless the plot makes it one?
Not in favor of this. That gives you no reason to buy food or visit the local tavern if you aren't the adventuring type. Therefore there is much less need for those businesses and professions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about you don't need to eat unless you're away from your settlement for a significant amount of time, or if your settlement is under siege and has had its food supply cut off or stolen? So it's assumed your character eats, but it's not an issue worth mentioning unless the plot makes it one?Not in favor of this. That gives you no reason to buy food or visit the local tavern if you aren't the adventuring type. Therefore there is much less need for those businesses and professions.
I was about to say something similar. If your character is in town, they don't have to worry much since they're in town where food is readily available. You just go buy something at the local pub. I'd like to see packaged rations (for adventuring) be a little more expensive to produce and food eaten immediately be a little cheaper.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
Yeah, sounds like a great time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.
You are out of food and drink.Yeah, sounds like a great time.
Or it's just a debuff icon?
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Goblin Squad Member
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forcing someone to eat/drink or get a debuff just plain does not add a single thing to the game.
it adds something for outlaws to worry about and do, rather then just sitting on the crossroads ad infinitum waiting for the next caravan to rob.
they'll either have to go to town to eat (and risk having the bounty collected)
or they have to spend some of their time hunting/gathering with the risk of getting killed by the environment.
they can't just sit on their fat bum and harvest other players
especilly if food is a low level comodity and can be threaded for cheap
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Goblin Squad Member
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Or it's just a debuff icon?
Why stop there? Include a bladder meter too, to make sure you're relieving yourself often enough. Think of the possibilities; you could literally catch enemies with their pants down, so they'd be entangled and have their movement reduced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no question that there is a finite amount of time and resources GW has to allocate to different aspects of this game. Does anyone feel this would be a good use of that time? What does this add but another layer of bookkeeping? Why stop at eating, how about sharpening your sword, resoling your boots, measuring out the precise amounts of spell components? The sky is the limit as far as tacking on the tiresome minutia of everyday life but is creating coding and implementing a system to manually saddle your horse going to make this game more fun? It damn sure isn't going to make the game more money, I'll promise you that.
Edit - Bladder Meter, thats genius Keovar! Now we just have to figure out if the buff from drinking coffee is worth the hit to our bladder timer. This is exactly the sort of edge of your seat excitement that sells games!
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no question that there is a finite amount of time and resources GW has to allocate to different aspects of this game. Does anyone feel this would be a good use of that time? What does this add but another layer of bookkeeping? Why stop at eating, how about sharpening your sword, resoling your boots, measuring out the precise amounts of spell components? The sky is the limit as far as tacking on the tiresome minutia of everyday life but is creating coding and implementing a system to manually saddle your horse going to make this game more fun? It damn sure isn't going to make the game more money, I'll promise you that.
Edit - Bladder Meter, thats genius Keovar!
You're being ridiculous.
If farmers have nobody to sell their crops to because there is no need for food they will lose subs. If taverns sit empty because nobody needs a hot meal with a good drink they will lose subs.
Cooking, farming, and running taverns are some of the most popular professions in fantasy settings. They need to create a demand for them. Preferably in a way less annoying than having to pop a food consumable every 5-30 minutes and even mid-battle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is no question that there is a finite amount of time and resources GW has to allocate to different aspects of this game. Does anyone feel this would be a good use of that time? What does this add but another layer of bookkeeping? Why stop at eating, how about sharpening your sword, resoling your boots, measuring out the precise amounts of spell components? ....
Um, hate to break it to you, but that is EXACTLY what they are doing. Already stated in thier development blogs. Weapons, armor and spells will all require some consumable component in order to function at thier peak efficiency. It's an integral part of thier mechanics for the economic cycle of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Preferably said food will keep you going for, say 4 hours of play time. Meaning if you're playing for 8 hours, you'd have to eat twice. If you only play for 2 hours, then two weeks later you play for 1 hour, then you still would be good to go for another hour even if you stopped playing for another month. Perhaps going AFK would stop the timer too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As for Taverns... maybe they can give you a buff if you spend some time there that lets you train quicker for the next X hours.
This is an extremely horribly bad idea. That means you're punishing yourself for ever not going to a tavern every X hours. Not just while in game, but in real life.
Also, that's been done to death as a "rest" mechanic.