Goblin Squad Member
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It actually frightens me a bit that there are so many people who have a distinct problem with a need for in-game nourishment. To me, it is an integral part of roleplay. You eat, you drink, you sleep. The only reason I would bother to filter out defecation is because of cultural pressures that make it either disgusting or silly. The Sims got away with it through silliness, but that's the only game that comes to mind.
To argue that hunger and drink systems do not contribute to the game is to argue that those things do not put pressures on people. In a roleplaying game, your goal is to create and play interesting, believable characters. How do you do that? The simplest way is to imagine someone that you would find interesting - in the case of Pathfinder, an adventurer, a mighty hero and goes about righting wrongs.
This is the basis of childhood play - make-believe. When young, most people tend to make incredibly superior characters, impervious to many types of harm, capable of astounding feats, just because the idea is appealing. As you age, and mature, your make-believe becomes more complex, and more real. You want something you can relate to, but still something incredible. So you start making rules - putting limitations on what you can do. Finding ways to work within these limits is a challenge, and overcoming the challenges makes it fun.
As your rule sets become more complex, and you implement more and more real-life pressures, the deeper your characters become. They also become easier to play, and you discover their motivations within yourself. It is immersive, because it is close to home, and it is something you can relate to.
I say that hunger and thirst system is a basic necessity for roleplay.
At least, for mature, deep, rewarding roleplay. I suppose if I were six again, I would be just fine as the all-powerful wizard who is godlike in every way, with nothing to do but follow my whims.
I vote for a hunger and thirst system, because I want more RPG in my MMORPG. Hunger and thirst are basic motivators. They deserve to be included.
- I apologize if anyone takes this post as insulting. That is not my intent, and I really do not bear anyone any ill will over this debate. But I truly do not comprehend how anyone can see this the other way around.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps we take the lack of HP regeneration as a starting point. Potions and trail rations restore a modest amount of HP. A camp cooked meal affects a slow HP regen rate. A home or tavern cooked meal affects a substantial regen due to the value of the nourishment. High quality ingredients can add stat buffs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Firstly, last I checked beer was some 90%+ water...alcohol is just a diuretic.
Alcohol is a diuretic, hence why it dehydrates you when you drink it. Unless you're buying non-alcoholic beer, beer will dehydrate you.
When you urinate after drinking alcohol and it is clear does not mean you're hydrated, it just means the only "waste" you're removing from your body is H2O.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Besides the reasons Keign listed, nobody is asking for potty-breaks because most of the reasons for having hunger/food do not apply. It seems like people are drawing comparisons because of one particular goal that they have in common: realism.
Don't ignore the economic, RP, social interaction, and real-life break-time goals/benefits that a hunger & thirst mechanic can achieve.
Hunger/thirst, much like PvP, has been done poorly in many games. This is likely because they are both systems that developers don't put much thought into and just tack them on, giving them little meaning.
I'm following this thread with interest; there seem to be a lot of different ideas coming out about how it could work... I even like a few of them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Okay, this thread's fairly big so I only read the first page and the last page; but anyhow...)
I'm personally leaning toward food/drink being an essential, just like sleeping should be too, for spell casters especially. It is, once again, a core part of the pathfinder game system. Granted, a part that many DMs and players overlook.
I think it should be fine though if you only eat roughly once per in-game day, it should take an in-game day and a half, after eating a full meal, before you start suffering negative effects, maybe two days. If you have food on you you should just automatically consume a day's rations when you camp/rest. Perhaps maybe also count logging off for a certain amount of time in-game count as resting/eating as well. That'll help encourage players to eat and rest themselves. :P
I don't think it should just be players that need food and sleep though, monsters and NPC should need it too (unless they're undead or outsiders or the like). That way you can sneak by monsters as they sleep, or ambush guards on lunch break...fun things like that.
That's my two cents and a nickle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One person wanted his paladin to die from thirst and starvation because he couldn't find his way out from as dungeon... I'm sure that you are able to find the correct post.If you read this thread they actually do.Yes, let the bad mechanics stay in the past...I really don't want to be able to die of thirst in Pathfinder Online, there are enough things that can kill you already.no one is asking for bad hunger and thirst mechanics
also no one has asked that people actually die from hunger and thirst, yet.this comment is pretty worthless without pointing at the suggestions you think are bad.
Dismissing the entire discussion is not constructive.as for dying from it: I must have missed the bits where people ask for characters to die from hunger, will you kindly point me to it?
** sorted the quotes to save tags
oh yes, I did
that post was made after mine, so I was correct :-Pno one had asked for it till later
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm all for eating and drinking as long as each meal will last me several hours rather than several minutes. Having my Character eat a 2-3 minute meal once every 3-4 hours would be fine by me. Anything more frequent would become tedious. The idea of a party stopping in the wilderness for a short rest and bite to eat is very appealing to me. Heck I wouldn't mind if my characters had to rest for a few minutes every several hours.
I would also love for food to be used in settlement upkeep and expansion. Starving out the defenders of a castle would be awesome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another overlooked benefit of this is a favorite topic of mine, contrast. If all one does is constantly fight monsters all day long, it loses it's edge and gets boring. You need to break the action up, give players a moment to relax, recollect on their adventures, and plan. Traveling time brings this of course, but traveling is usually such a big part of games as well that you need a break from that too.
Food and rest isn't just for adventurers either; farmers, crafters, and
politicians need breaks too. Some may never need to travel much either.
They'll also need to plant fields and build inns and markets to attract passing travelers and merchants and to provide for their own people. Which adds depth.
Contrast helps engage players emotionally, highs seem higher when next to lows. Depth meanwhile engages players intellectually, it helps them focus on the game and keeps the game on their mind even when they aren't playing.
In other games, these things can be achieved through the story as much as gameplay, but MMOs are weak in story. Even if they have an elaborate rich narrative (which this one probably wont, being largely player-driven), many people don't even pay attention to it. So an MMO needs to rely on deep and varying gameplay to engage it's players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like food and drink being essential. Among other things, it puts more consequences on griefers, who by reputation cannot buy food in the majority of places.
Ooh, that's a good point. That in turn will cause bad guy players to group together and take up more mundane professions to provide for themselves. Eventually they'll develop their own wretched hives of scum and villainy. Sweet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Firstly, last I checked beer was some 90%+ water...alcohol is just a diuretic.Alcohol is a diuretic, hence why it dehydrates you when you drink it. Unless you're buying non-alcoholic beer, beer will dehydrate you.
When you urinate after drinking alcohol and it is clear does not mean you're hydrated, it just means the only "waste" you're removing from your body is H2O.
...I just assumed this would be understood when I used the word "diuretic."
Back on topic: I understand the desire for realism, and I as much as anyone else love enhancing my role playing experience...but I don't see the need for a hunger-thirst system. In my opinion it will just hinder my playing experience rather than enrich it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...I just assumed this would be understood when I used the word "diuretic."Firstly, last I checked beer was some 90%+ water...alcohol is just a diuretic.Alcohol is a diuretic, hence why it dehydrates you when you drink it. Unless you're buying non-alcoholic beer, beer will dehydrate you.
When you urinate after drinking alcohol and it is clear does not mean you're hydrated, it just means the only "waste" you're removing from your body is H2O.
But you didn't just use the word diuretic. You said that it was 90%+ water which implies that you seem to not understand the volume of water included in the drink is irrelevant to the amount of water you would be losing. It would be like taking one step forward and three steps back.
On-topic: I understand that those who want to farm or use siege tactics would find this mechanic very useful. I just think for overall gameplay hunger and thirst should be limited to bonuses only. I don't want to have to hunt down food and water every time I log into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On-topic: I understand that those who want to farm or use siege tactics would find this mechanic very useful. I just think for overall gameplay hunger and thirst should be limited to bonuses only. I don't want to have to hunt down food and water every time I log into the game.
Well, that's why I suggested that logging off for a certain amount of time, say 4 or 8 hours, also counts as eating and resting. Then when you come back you're good to go.
There is also a little skill called Survival. With just a few ranks in it you can pretty easily find enough food and water in the wilderness to feed yourself, and a few more ranks will let you feed your party members as well. This skill would be pretty essential for adventurers, but not very important to craftsmen and merchants and politicians. They can just hang around town and buy any food and drink the need.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, that's why I suggested that logging off for a certain amount of time, say 4 or 8 hours, also counts as eating and resting. Then when you come back you're good to go.
There is also a little skill called Survival. With just a few ranks in it you can pretty easily find enough food and water in the wilderness to feed yourself, and a few more ranks will let you feed your party members as well. This skill would be pretty essential for adventurers, but not very important to craftsmen and merchants and politicians. They can just hang around town and buy any food and drink the need.
Let's assume that I have a character with no survival skills and I'm in the middle of traveling when I need to log off. What happens to my character? What if I go on vacation for a month? If I run a business does it deplete my wealth?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well...nothing happens to your character, except that any skills you have queued for training will improve. When you come back you'll pick up where you left off feeling refreshed from your vacation.
It's true a business you run might suffer, most businesses do without management. It's coffers wont be drained due to feeding you while you're offline though.
I don't see why people complain about it if it's involved...
Maybe it's because I involve myself in these things to escape my reality for a bit, so having an immersive experience helps with it. I personally would not make hazardous effects happen as a DM unless players blatantly ignore times when they should be eating or drinking, and it accrues over time.
It's not really tedious to me. Tedious is something like the Vow of Cleanliness for the Monk that forces himself to religiously clean his body, equipment and garments throughout the day else he breaks his vow. Good role-play opportunity, but after hearing it for the 30th time, unless that player truly gets creative with the process, it gets old. It's best to take the trait that lets you have a cantrip and get Prestidigitation to deal with it.
Whereas with food, a bit more personality comes out. Are you an obnoxiously picky eater who can't have food groups touching each other on the plate? Or are you just an animal at the table, ripping off a ham leg and noisily eating it, slobbering on everywhere as you do?
Now that I think about it, it really forces another aspect of inventory management. They may dislike it, but hey, adventuring isn't luxurious and just because it's a game, I don't believe reality should be ignored. I might force them to have some kind of meal to have the benefit of something like rest. Buffs/debuffs I can't really see happening unless some kind of drug is involved.
