Switch-hitter vs archer ranger


Advice


Just trying to get a better understanding of the switch-hitter ranger. Is the main reason for switch-hitting because there are spells such as Wind Wall and Fickle Winds? Because otherwise wouldn't the ranger just take a 5ft step and full attack with the bow and arrow for presumably more damage as an archer? Is it just a style thing, or am I missing an essential powergaming ability?

Dark Archive

Well the Switch-hitter lets you no longer be a one trick pony where you focus EVERYTHING on a bow. There are times and dungeons where range is not an option so being pretty good with a sword/axe is not a bad thing.


There is no real reason to switch hit. At least with any sort of monetary or feat investment. Just carry a 2-handed melee weapon around just in case. At higher levels (10+, technically could be 6+ but you should be getting Imp. Precise Shot at 6) you'll have Point Blank Master feat and have no reason to bother with a melee weapon at all.

(Before PBM feat, 5 ft stepping back isn't a cure-all; the Step Up feat is ridiculously easily available and unlike spellcasters -- the group the feat was clearly intended to mess with -- archers do not get some sort of check to "shoot defensively")

Wind Wall has always been kind of bs (completely and utterly shuts down a few specific ranged attacks only), and a DM actually using Fickle Winds is on my list of "things that will cause me to leave a game, even if said thing does not affect my own character, just out of sheer disgust." In any case, by RAW, you could just whip out a sling or some javelins and shoot through either of those spells w/ a 70% success rate, so even then there's no reason to go melee.

God I hate the fickle winds spell....

Sczarni

Switch Hitter is about being less specialized and more well rounded. A lot of these issues go away at higher levels, but the fact remains that Archery is very feat intensive.

The Ranger is a perfect example of what bad medicine Archery is in Pathfinder. Mechanically they are positioned to be one of the best archers in the game - and they are as long as you're Human.

For Society play I'd wager that being a Switch Hitter is a better option. Best of both worlds so to speak...


See, that's the problem. Archery IS feat-heavy. So...you solve the problem by investing still *more* feats in melee? It makes no sense.

So by all means, carry a melee weapon. But do not actually invest feats into melee.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

See, that's the problem. Archery IS feat-heavy. So...you solve the problem by investing still *more* feats in melee? It makes no sense.

So by all means, carry a melee weapon. But do not actually invest feats into melee.

But your solution to not go into melee is to make the archery style more feat intensive.

EDIT: I actually agree with stream about effectiveness, but swicht hitting looks so cool.


Stream has the right of it in my experience. If you're going to switch hit, you should focus on melee and use archery as a way to make you more tactically versatile. If you focus more on the archery side of it, then you'll eventually never have any reason at all to enter melee and then all those melee feats you took are suddenly wasted.


From experience, I've played with switch hitters and archers. The archer simply does more damage than the switch hitter because he specializes. Yeah, the switch hitter can do both...and...?

An archer can wear a buckler for free, get point blank master, and then just be better than a switch hitter. Not to mention you don't split your gold as much, too. You spend money on bows and arrows rather than bows, arrows, AND melee weapons.

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
God I hate the fickle winds spell....

That spell is pretty ridiculous. Wind wall is the reason my archer is a bard...he can dispel those archer-nullifying spells himself.

Sczarni

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

See, that's the problem. Archery IS feat-heavy. So...you solve the problem by investing still *more* feats in melee? It makes no sense.

So by all means, carry a melee weapon. But do not actually invest feats into melee.

Switch hitting is about being a melee focused character with Archery as a secondary method of attacking your foes.

It's not about solving the problems of Archery, it's about supplementing a melee build by cherry picking some prime feats without the prereqs.

For high level play of course archery is more optimal. But if you're playing to mid levels and don't know what party composition is going to be I stand by my assertion that the switch hitter would be have better survivability.

The Exchange

John of Arc wrote:
you'll eventually never have any reason at all to enter melee and then all those melee feats you took are suddenly wasted.

To be fair, a switch hitter focused on archery probably only has one melee feat - Power Attack - if only because archery is so feat intensive.

I don't think there's much point talking about a high-level switch hitter, though, because switch hitting (as I understand it) is primarily a way to keep an archery-focused character viable at low levels. Until you have Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot, it's really hard for an archer to put out consistent damage. That means 5-6 levels of sucking pretty hard. If you're starting at higher levels, or are willing to be a weak party member for AT LEAST 1/4 of the campaign, I guess this isn't an issue...

... but if you're playing PFS, that's half of your character's adventuring life. In most adventure paths, it's at least a third of the game. Spending one feat slot on Power Attack makes most characters passable melee combatants until level 8 or so, which seems like a fair price to make your character viable at all levels.

IME, most campaigns peter out before the high levels, so I don't think it's a "wasted feat" to do something that makes your character significantly better for a significant chunk of your campaign.


I wouldn't say an archer sucks at low levels. The ranger should have precise shot by 2nd level, and even before then enemies are low level too. I don't remember having any problems hitting enemies then. You just need to pay attention to positioning and be able to accept that some times you are taking a penalty to hit.


The money gets to be annoying but I love switch hitting with my Ranger. He can throw up alot of arrows on a full attack. With power attack he does pretty huge numbers.

Though I am sure pure melee or pure archery would be better. I just have a realism issue with using a bow in melee.


DDogwood wrote:


I don't think there's much point talking about a high-level switch hitter, though, because switch hitting (as I understand it) is primarily a way to keep an archery-focused character viable at low levels. Until you have Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot, it's really hard for an archer to put out consistent damage. That means 5-6 levels of sucking pretty hard. If you're starting at higher levels, or are willing to be a weak party member for AT LEAST 1/4 of the campaign, I guess this isn't an issue...

What archer do not have precishot at level 3? and even without imporved precise shot is hard for me to believe that archers would be a weak party members.

Lantern Lodge

Krodjin wrote:
Switch hitting is about being a melee focused character with Archery as a secondary method of attacking your foes.

This is a switch-hitter in Pathfinder. It's all about Strength over Dex. Precise Shot isn't necessary since you'll be using melee once the enemy gets close. A switch hitter excels when working with a disciplined party. Instead of charging in, they let them enemy approach while hitting them with ranged weapons. If played this way, the switch hitter is pumping full round attacks all the time. For PFS this is why I don't play switch hitters because many people just charge the enemy.


kaisc006 wrote:
Krodjin wrote:
Switch hitting is about being a melee focused character with Archery as a secondary method of attacking your foes.
This is a switch-hitter in Pathfinder. It's all about Strength over Dex. Precise Shot isn't necessary since you'll be using melee once the enemy gets close. A switch hitter excels when working with a disciplined party. Instead of charging in, they let them enemy approach while hitting them with ranged weapons. If played this way, the switch hitter is pumping full round attacks all the time. For PFS this is why I don't play switch hitters because many people just charge the enemy.

You could go pure DEX and get a (dervish) scimitar or another Agile weapon.

Lantern Lodge

gustavo iglesias wrote:
You could go pure DEX and get a (dervish) scimitar or another Agile weapon.

You could, but you won't be nearly as optimized as a Str build.

The Exchange

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eakratz wrote:
I wouldn't say an archer sucks at low levels. The ranger should have precise shot by 2nd level, and even before then enemies are low level too. I don't remember having any problems hitting enemies then. You just need to pay attention to positioning and be able to accept that some times you are taking a penalty to hit.

This is only true if you are ignoring the rules for cover, and/or if your GM isn't playing the enemies with the most basic intelligence. Until you have Improved Precise Shot, your opponents should be able to get a cover bonus against your archer(s) at LEAST half the time. If they aren't ducking around corners, then they should be engaging your allies in melee and keeping your friends between you and them as much as possible.

It's funny how often people are willing to overlook this issue when discussing archers. If a monster's move action could consistently give a melee character a -4 to hit, we'd all be complaining about how useless melee is.


Not necessarily. You accept the fact that sometimes you may have to deal with your allies providing cover and suck up the penalty. But at level one and two, you don't need to stand around and full attack all the time. There is nothing wrong with moving and attacking, and not using Rapid Shot that round. With a little effort you should be able to find a line where your allies are not in between you and the enemy. You can find high ground or circle around (when not in a dungeon). You can forego attacking one round to double move to a much more advantageous position. Also, you can pick and choose who you shoot if there are more than one enemy.

All of these things I find add to the fun of playing an archer. Improved Precise Shot just switches archery to easy mode.

Shadow Lodge

DDogwood wrote:

This is only true if you are ignoring the rules for cover, and/or if your GM isn't playing the enemies with the most basic intelligence. Until you have Improved Precise Shot, your opponents should be able to get a cover bonus against your archer(s) at LEAST half the time. If they aren't ducking around corners, then they should be engaging your allies in melee and keeping your friends between you and them as much as possible.

It's funny how often people are willing to overlook this issue when discussing archers. If a monster's move action could consistently give a melee character a -4 to hit, we'd all be complaining about how useless melee is.

lets not forget, obscuring mist, darkness, any any other effect that blocks line of effect OR line of sight.

most archers ive seen played need to be reminded of the "if your ally is in the line your target gets a +4 ac" rules of archery, getting ray of enfeeblement, and about 100 other low level things that can make your archer suck.

to preface i would not play a switch hitter that is not a fighter, but a fighter makes a damn powerful switch hitter.

and yes there are many times when ranged attacks just cant cut it, oozes anyone? how about underwater combat, enclosed hallways, areas of no visibility, things with immunity to, or high DR against piercing attacks, remember that you dont start off with clustered shots.

The Exchange

eakratz wrote:

Not necessarily. You accept the fact that sometimes you may have to deal with your allies providing cover and suck up the penalty. But at level one and two, you don't need to stand around and full attack all the time. There is nothing wrong with moving and attacking, and not using Rapid Shot that round. With a little effort you should be able to find a line where your allies are not in between you and the enemy. You can find high ground or circle around (when not in a dungeon). You can forego attacking one round to double move to a much more advantageous position. Also, you can pick and choose who you shoot if there are more than one enemy.

All of these things I find add to the fun of playing an archer. Improved Precise Shot just switches archery to easy mode.

Yes. Put another way, you can play a switch-hitter - get Power Attack and a 2H weapon, and when you don't have a good shot, you can do any of the above OR charge in swinging. As I said in the first place, switch hitting is mainly a way to make your archer character more viable at low levels. Unless you're trying to argue that giving up half of your attacks, giving up all of your attacks, or attacking a less important target are GOOD options for a character whose main job is to do damage?


No, just options.


John of Arc wrote:
Stream has the right of it in my experience. If you're going to switch hit, you should focus on melee and use archery as a way to make you more tactically versatile. If you focus more on the archery side of it, then you'll eventually never have any reason at all to enter melee and then all those melee feats you took are suddenly wasted.

Agreed. My Paladins and Barbarians (Urban Barbarians) always take Deadly Aim at some point early on to compliment their Smites/Rage if they have to face a foe at range, but everything else goes into two-handed melee. A ranged option is a good thing to have as a frontliner, but only as a compliment to others. A pure switch ultimately becomes a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.


The reason why a switch-hitter works for Ranger, is because the Ranger can skip all the unnecessary feat taxes, making archery a lot less feat-heavy. Every other archer has to start with Point Blank Shot and then Precise Shot, but the switch-hitter doesn't need those, and the Ranger can skip them. That saves you two feats right there that a Fighter switch-hitter would have to waste on useless archery prereqs.

And those feats are useless to a switch-hitter because when your target is at point blank range, you'll be hitting it with your sword. And when he's in melee, he's in melee with you. Spend your regular feats on melee, and possibly Deadly Aim, and the rest of your archery comes from your combat style. Archery is definitely secondary to melee with regards to the focus of your build, but you'll still be good at it, because you can skip all those prereqs and get the good stuff much earlier than anyone else.

About half the archery feats are just about shooting into melee, and as a switch-hitter, you're just not going to do that. You're using the bow only how it's really intended: shooting people at a distance. You're Aragorn, nor Legolas.

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