Hello Forumites,
First post. I've been lurking for forever, and reading all of your incredible information and conversations, so first off, Thanks!
Now to the important bit. I've been playing pathfinder for about a year and a half, and 3.5 for about a year and a half before that. I am experienced, but my "system mastery" is on the lower end. I am currently involved in one campaign, but have been invited to a one-off single day (albeit probably a very long day 10+ hrs) adventure.
As the title states, I am looking for assistance with choosing and creating a character for this adventure. I have been looking at a few character concepts, and have been unable to choose one in particular.
A bit about the adventure. We will be starting off at level 18 (wow!) and I have no experience at this level. All I know is that it will be a massive dungeon. No idea on enemy types or terrain (though typical dungeon fare like corridors and large rooms is expected).
Group composition so far (and this still needs to be nailed down)consists of a Zen Archer Monk undetermined race, a Vanara Monk, a Dwarven Vivisectionist Alchemist, one undetermined (though he's considering a Gunslinger), and myself. The GM will possibly have an Arcane NPC (he often creates a character to run with us to fill in our void) unless one of us creates a Wizard/Sorc or possibly a Healer Cleric. The Zen Archer Monk, plays much more heavily to the roleplay rather than optimization, the Alchemist optimizes heavily and is light on roleplaying. The other two characters fall somewhere in the middle. I like to be "effective" but within a strong character concept, read as "Optimization is fun but not key".
Now, for the classes I've been considering. I've partly been inspired by a miniature that I recently bought while getting a gift for a friend
http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/halbarand/latest/03427 link if you're interested.
I have considered the following:
An Oracle of Lore2/Paladin 16 (probably Aasimar) Lore flavor gets me the book from the mini and sidestep secret is cool. I like the idea of Divine casters taking up the Paladin mantle. Straight Paladin is not out of the question, and I have also considered Holy Vindicator with this build.
Straight Oracle of Battle. I think I would use a polearm, but I like Sword N'Board and 2HF just fine.
A Cavalier/Paladin built on charging. Would most likely have to be small sized for this particular adventure (Gnome? the -STR hurts though). I like the flavor of Divine Charge, smite with a Lance all that stuff.
An Oracle of Heavens (mystery is flexible) for straight Casty goodness.
Most of my experience has been with Ranged characters so I am not sure how best to build some of these concepts. I will probably be starting a second campaign soon, so I'm sure more than one of these will be put into use soon.
Holy Crap...that was seriously long-winded. I'm sorry. If you managed to stay with me the whole time, +1 internets for you.
Thanks!
I neglected to add, all Paizo material is available. 3rd party is possible, with GM approval but I'd prefer to avoid it.
Stat Array (prior to racial mods)
18,16,15,14,13,10
this was determined with rolling 2d6+6, and if total abililty modifiers total less than +12 you start over (it was a little weird, but kinda different and fun)
Here's a fixed link to your mini.
Given everything you've said about the party, your preferences, the GM, etc. my suggestion to to choose one class and stick with it, either Paladin or Oracle. Play a Paladin if you want to kick butts in melee;
Oracle if you want to cast spells.
Thanks for the link fix Blueluck (terrible at those). I know why staying straight Oracle makes sense, (spontaneous casters lose if you lose caster levels), but what is the major benefit of staying straight Paladin?
Paladin and Oracle are both good options given your group mix. Go for it.
At 18th level I'd feel safer in the Paladins' boots but YMMV.
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Paladin is a solid choice for damage and defenses, and his divine bond functions using his Paladin level as his druid level, so there's not a huge benefit to multi-classing cavalier, especially when it retards the growth of your paladin abilities. A paladin using Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, and Mounted Skirmisher while on the back of a charging mount can do plenty of damage without any cavalier levels, particularly while Smiting.
At 18th level you'll have enough Mercies to deal with most negative effects if you stick straight paladin, and Aura of Righteousness can be very helpful in preventing one of your powerful party members from being turned against you, something which can be fatal at that level.
lore oracle/paladin seems a great choice, though hat curse will you be going for? tongues is the least adversely-affecting, but you dont get much in return (though knowing tons of languages would fit the lore thing well), maybe speaking celestial while in battle or something.
Tongues while speaking celestial is exactly the flavor I was looking at there. I would most likely play an Aasimar with the Angel blooded alternate racial trait. And maybe even take the Angel Wings racial feat just for fun.
I'm not sure what fighting style to go with however. I like the iconic imagery of sword and shield in hand smiting all evil...yadda yadda, but I understand it's not going to give me as much damage as 2HF would. Using something like a Lucerne Hammer could be cool as well. Giant Smite Sledge. Dwarven long hammer, is there a way for me to get that as an Aasimar without exotic weapon proficieny?
What kinds of feats should I look at?
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Using something like a Lucerne Hammer could be cool as well. Giant Smite Sledge. Dwarven long hammer, is there a way for me to get that as an Aasimar without exotic weapon proficieny?What kinds of feats should I look at?
You could always try using an Earthbreaker since it's a pretty solid smashy weapon and only requires Martial Weapon Proficiency.
Power Attack is of course an obvious choice if you're going THF, and Death from Above gets you a +5 to hit when charging creatures medium size or smaller while you're on your mount. That being said, Spirited Charge and Mounted Skirmisher are excellent feats if you plan on taking the Mount option for your Divine Bond. If you go with the weapon enhancement bond feature, maybe look at taking the Vital Strike chain and Devastating Strike for those times when you're not able to Full Attack. Even if you go mounted this might not be a bad chain, as the separation of action economy even allows for some awesome tricks with Mounted Combat, opening the door for a Greater Vital Striking, Spirited Charging hit for 10d6+2xSTR+2xEnhancement+2xSmite+extras.
If you want the miniature's weapon in the picture it is a Warhammer.
Thanks Fayth. I am not necessarily tied to the mini as a perfect representation. More of an inspiration (and it actually has 3 you can switch out, hammer, mace, and sword). But that's neither here or there.
Thanks Ssalarn, I like that Earthbreaker. I've read it before, but for whatever reason I never remember that one. I keep thinking of the piston maul, which I have no interest in.
Thanks for the link fix Blueluck (terrible at those). I know why staying straight Oracle makes sense, (spontaneous casters lose if you lose caster levels), but what is the major benefit of staying straight Paladin?
Paladin+Cavalier means you'll have a much worse mount than just choosing one or the other, not to mention all of the high-level abilities you lose out on.
Paladin 16/Oracle 2
- Numerically, you only lose +1 attack, +1 fort save, 2 HP, which isn't too bad.
- You also lose out on spells. Oracle only gets 1st level spells, cast at CL 2. Paladin gains a 1st and a 4th level spell, and some of the 4th level Paladin spells are awesome.
- You lose Aura of Righteousness which grants DR and immunity to compulsions.
- Your Divine Bond is significantly weakened.
- You lose a high-level mercy.
- You must take on a curse.
In return, you get to choose among the Lore Oracle's low-level revelations, many of which aren't particularly good for a Paladin anyway, since you won't have many skill points to put into knowledge skills, or which duplicate spell effects that you could easily just cast or use from scrolls. The only "good" one is Sidestep Secret, but since your heavy armor will make up for the missing DEX bonus (and that DEX bonus will be capped by armor anyway). Really, all you're getting out of a couple Oracle levels is a bonus to reflex saves, and that's for a character who already has excellent saves and survivability.
If you mostly just want the book to represent something important, use it as your holy symbol.
1) Since you know you will be level 18 you don't have to worry about how you got there - so some builds that have slow spots become great
2) Don't forget that 1/2 your other character levels count towards your Oracle Curse - so at level 18 if you go 2 levels of Oracle, 16 levels of Paladin you will get the 10th level abilities of your curse.
regasrding your first point, I have kept that in mind. I did not think about the benefits of My oracle curse. I might have to consider that further, though the Tongues speakin Celestial may be the best fit flavor wise.
Thanks for spelling everything out like that for me Blueluck. I've had trouble keeping track of the lost abilities. I'm beginning to think that straight Paladin might be the best track. I can probably re-work the flavor to fit. (I know Pathfinder is designed to reduce the effectiveness of multi-classing)
Paladin/Inquisitor/Cleric/Ranger of Torag could fit...
All of them get you excellent combat ability.
Paladin: You will be more survivable.
Inquisitor: You will be slightly less survivable but you will quickly be able to overwhelm your enemies if your group works together well.
Cleric: You will be potent especially using spells to empower your allies.
Ranger: You will be able to get Archery or Two-Handed Feats without the Prerequisites.
The Inquisitor & Cleric will require the Martial Weapon Proficiency for the Maul(Earth Breaker). Paladin gives it to you for free. Being a follower of Torag gives you a Weapon that you can use until you get the Maul(Earth Breaker). It also gives you a simple code to follow if you look in the "Faiths of..." book that contains his information. You can be either a Dwarf or a Dwarf Adopted Human for the theme.
You can have the Book be your Holy Text with your Holy Symbol embedded in the Cover.
You mentioned that you thought about an Oracle of Battle with a polearm. Have you check out the thread on the board called New Class Guide- Reach Cleric? If you go oracle, it still seems generally applicable since you are spontaneous divine spell caster. The feats would still help you get proficient with them. The main draw I saw from it was breaking action economy so that you could cast and melee each round by being really good at attacks of Opportunity. If you go strait Oracle, you will have access to level 9 spells at that point, so this build could help you keep martial aspects relevant.
You can gain proficiency using the Skill At Arms Revelation. You might also look into the Combat Healing Revelation as well.
I personally as a GM rename Breath of Life or whatever it is to Cure Deadly Wounds.
Thanks for all the input guys. Lemeres, I have skimmed the Reach Cleric guide I'll need to read it further, but it sounds like something right up my alley. Right now, I'm trying to decide between full paladin, and full Oracle probably with the Battle mystery. I really like the initiative bonuses with that mystery.
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I'd go the oracle route myself, but a front liner would be good.
For me personally I'd go invulnerable rager and just shrug off 9/- while doing nothing, 19/- while defensive (through stalwart) and 20-23/- while raging...
Seems pretty sweet to me for a long day and dungeon, they tend to wear you down over time and nothing stands up better to such abuse than a barbarian with alot of DR.
Thanks for all the input guys. Lemeres, I have skimmed the Reach Cleric guide I'll need to read it further, but it sounds like something right up my alley. Right now, I'm trying to decide between full paladin, and full Oracle probably with the Battle mystery. I really like the initiative bonuses with that mystery.
At that level, a caster (Cleric, Oracle, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch) will simply be more powerful than a combatant. With an 18th level oracle, you're going to want to spend all of your actions casting spells. You can call down the armies of heaven, cure all injuries with a word, or cause your enemies to implode (180 damage per turn).
That being said, if you'd rather fight, fight! But, if you'd rather fight than cast, don't play the oracle.
Thanks everyone. I have decided that I will go full Oracle. I've never played a caster before, and never played in a high level campaign like this, so I'm a bit nervous, as it appears to be a bit more complicated than I am used too.
Would any of you fine people be interested in helping me with a build?
Aasimar Oracle of Heavens (though this is still flexible if you give good reason). See above for initial stat array.
THIS will help with general advice.
Have a look at the Time Oracle though, lots of nice tricks!
Thanks Stuart. I have read the guide multiple times, and I have it up here at work now as well. (not sure boss would appreciate that)
Time Oracle... Yikes...
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since you've decided to go Oracle, and you've never played a full caster before, AND you're starting at caster level 18, I'd suggest paying very close attention to your spells.
Given your party's makeup, you'll find buff spells to be very valuable.
Given that no one else in the party has much in the way of magic ability (though the monks will have some ability to withstand many of the spell thrown at them), you'll also want the ability to protect your allies from nasty magics.
If you are planning on using attack spells (and while there's a dearth of these for lower level cleric spells, you do get some nice ones at higher levels), you need spell penetration and the highest DCs possible. If you're going to focus more on buffing your allies so they can kill the enemy, this is less critical.
Just some general thoughts. Hope they're useful!
If you want to make a heavens oracle normally I'd suggest the guiding star revelation. But for a dungeon crawl it might not be the right thing.
Mantle of Moonlight is nice, even if you never meet a lycanthrophe. Just hit those pesky enemy spellcasters with the rage and they can't cast anymore. No save.
How good lure of heavens is depends a lot on the enviroment. In corridors with low ceilings it's not good. In big caverns the ability to fly is good.
All in all I'd say heavens is better suited for outdoor adventures but it is still viable underground.
18th level caster? go times oracle.